"Hey look! That flyover bridge has Buffalos painted on it. I think I will change my opinion"

lmao

Channel 9 had better coverage than 5 if anybody is going to watch the news.

"Hey look! That flyover bridge has Buffalos painted on it. I think I will change my opinion"

That's funny, because I will personally only support mountain crests painted on it. Any other art motif will decimate the southwest side of downtown.

Excellent analogy for speaking past eachother. I am still uncertain that Couch, Wenger, and some on Council understand why we are upset. I'd bet almost all of us are get along people, I know I am - it just takes too much energy to oppose something, that I'd think it would be obvious we had a good reason to expend so much energy and effort.

I sensed there is a fair chance the Council will want to proceed with the eastern connection as soon as possible. This is good because Public Works has acknowledged their prior mistake of planning to use Compress to get into Bricktown from the Blvd. Lengthening the distance to transition from beneath the BNSF viaduct to grade level gives more room to make sure the railroad viaduct can be wide enough to accommodate future rail traffic at the new transit hub.

Also, if it were possible for complete the eastern connection to I-40 before starting work on the western section, I bet most of the traffic jams (the ones blown completely out of proportion by city staff) will melt away as people figure out how easy it is to get to Mustang, Yukon, Hefner Parkway, and other points west of downtown by simply adapting their route. My preference would be to start at the I40 connections on the east, and then progress westward. This would buy the maximum time to fully evaluate alternatives for the Classen, Western, Reno, Blvd intersection and hopefully eliminate the elevated road from consideration.

Thanks to those that were instrumental in getting this citizen effort together there is a real chance we can avoid repeating the mistake of building an elevated road through downtown. But it isn't finished yet.

"Hey look! That flyover bridge has Buffalos painted on it. I think I will change my opinion"

That is pretty funny.....glad I wasn't sitting next to you if you were there and said that.

http://kfor.com/2012/07/31/plans-for-downtown-boulevard-come-under-fire/

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-will-hire-independent-engineer-to-look-at-downtown-boulevard-options/article/3697147

I sensed there is a fair chance the Council will want to proceed with the eastern connection as soon as possible. This is good because Public Works has acknowledged their prior mistake of planning to use Compress to get into Bricktown from the Blvd. Lengthening the distance to transition from beneath the BNSF viaduct to grade level gives more room to make sure the railroad viaduct can be wide enough to accommodate future rail traffic at the new transit hub.

Also, if it were possible for complete the eastern connection to I-40 before starting work on the western section, I bet most of the traffic jams (the ones blown completely out of proportion by city staff) will melt away as people figure out how easy it is to get to Mustang, Yukon, Hefner Parkway, and other points west of downtown by simply adapting their route. My preference would be to start at the I40 connections on the east, and then progress westward. This would buy the maximum time to fully evaluate alternatives for the Classen, Western, Reno, Blvd intersection and hopefully eliminate the elevated road from consideration.

Thanks to those that were instrumental in getting this citizen effort together there is a real chance we can avoid repeating the mistake of building an elevated road through downtown. But it isn't finished yet.

The current plan is to actually start using the western section while it is under construction by using the old outside lanes when the ramps that connect to I-40 are finished at the end of the year. There really is no reason to rush the western section. It just won't look "pretty".

The eastern section will take awhile to complete because of the railroad bridge. Im guessing they have to build a temporary bridge.

Meg Salyer does not come across very well in that article.

Holy crap, I just saw he image of what ODOT came up with for the boulevard. Anyone who thinks that is a viable alternative should be fired immediately. I can't think of any design that could be worse. If they put some flood gates on the openings it would make an awesome flood control levee though.

Meg Salyer does not come across very well in that article.

"We do need to move traffic" - Meg Slayer

THERE IS A BRAND NEW 10 LANE INTERSTATE 4 BLOCKS AWAY!!!!!!! IT WAS BUILT TO HANDLE TRAFFIC FOR THE NEXT 40 YEARS!!!!!!

The current plan is to actually start using the western section while it is under construction by using the old outside lanes when the ramps that connect to I-40 are finished at the end of the year. There really is no reason to rush the western section. It just won't look "pretty".

The eastern section will take awhile to complete because of the railroad bridge. Im guessing they have to build a temporary

True - that is one of the problems with the compressed timeline that has been stated by city staff. I hope the Council will realize the vast majority of people approve of taking more time to fully evaluate the alternatives. In doing so, there may be time to get the eastern connection completed IF the rail bridge design has been verified to accommodate future rail traffic into the transit hub at Santa Fe station. I may be wrong because I haven't seen any estimates of the time required to complete the eastern connection.

The complaints about traffic in the vicinity of Western Ave have been overstated. People need to realize this city really does not have anything to complain about even with some of these main roads in various states of construction (and deconstruction). Our traffic jams are a minor annoyance in most places, despite the severe trauma of some people having to sit through a couple traffic light cycles while a major construction project is designed properly.

When will they publish Eric Wenger's presentation?

It's up with Steve's article:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/content.newsok.com/documents/citypresentation.pdf

Holy crap, I just saw he image of what ODOT came up with for the boulevard. Anyone who thinks that is a viable alternative should be fired immediately. I can't think of any design that could be worse. If they put some flood gates on the openings it would make an awesome flood control levee though.

LOL. Now that's funny.

Funny we mentioned berms and dikes after seeing it too!

THERE IS A BRAND NEW 10 LANE INTERSTATE 4 BLOCKS AWAY!!!!!!! IT WAS BUILT TO HANDLE TRAFFIC FOR THE NEXT 40 YEARS!!!!!!

Exactly! This is also the reason the boulevard will not see 94000 cars a day until 2052 at least.

Exactly! This is also the reason the boulevard will not see 94000 cars a day until 2052 at least.

I was hoping that Shadid would be able to stick that point to them a little more. They came to the 94,000 cars a day figure based on modeling for what the old I-40 carried, as if the new I-40 and Boulevard are one and the same. I'm not questioning their modeling, which I agree with others may be a low-ball estimate - however there is a glaring omission regarding the separation of the "I-40 Business Route" from the new 10-lane I-40. Ugh.

I could not help from laughing when Wenger tried to sell the retaining walls were going to make a world of difference over if they used berms on the new bridge for encouraging development along the CrossRenoWestern Expressway.

I could not help from laughing when Wenger tried to sell the retaining walls were going to make a world of difference over if they used berms on the new bridge for encouraging development along the CrossRenoWestern Expressway.

You know I kind of wonder if Eric Wenger's plate isn't so full trying to support 600+ square miles of public works infrastructure he is simply trying to get the most expeditious solution to "a road" so he can move on to other things. When you think about everything that Public Works covers in OKC, it must be a daunting task to support such a large area. My understanding is nearly all city departments are understaffed, so I am willing to give him a break as long as his department puts forth an honest reassessment of the boulevard. I think at times he should be a little more careful with some of his statements on this topic; because some of them do not appear to be well thought out. But I guess all of us would like to have some words back from time to time......

You know I kind of wonder if Eric Wenger's plate isn't so full trying to support 600+ square miles of public works infrastructure he is simply trying to get the most expeditious solution to "a road" so he can move on to other things. When you think about everything that Public Works covers in OKC, it must be a daunting task to support such a large area. My understanding is nearly all city departments are understaffed, so I am willing to give him a break as long as his department puts forth an honest reassessment of the boulevard. I think at times he should be a little more careful with some of his statements on this topic; because some of them do not appear to be well thought out. But I guess all of us would like to have some words back from time to time......

This. I think he looks and sounds like a nice guy, I've just had nothing but policy differences with him.

You know I kind of wonder if Eric Wenger's plate isn't so full trying to support 600+ square miles of public works infrastructure he is simply trying to get the most expeditious solution to "a road" so he can move on to other things. When you think about everything that Public Works covers in OKC, it must be a daunting task to support such a large area. My understanding is nearly all city departments are understaffed, so I am willing to give him a break as long as his department puts forth an honest reassessment of the boulevard. I think at times he should be a little more careful with some of his statements on this topic; because some of them do not appear to be well thought out. But I guess all of us would like to have some words back from time to time......

If that is true then it is very easy to fix - stop sprawling all over the prairie and focus their attention on existing developed areas. If OKC can't keep up with what is already built why are they building more? They need to start asking themselves how they can get more people in the current urbanized area.

If that is true then it is very easy to fix - stop sprawling all over the prairie and focus their attention on existing developed areas. If OKC can't keep up with what is already built why are they building more? They need to start asking themselves how they can get more people in the current urbanized area.

Sounds easy - and is in theory - but how do you go about reducing a city's footprint when the residents have filled in that space? If OKC were to pull back its city limits to a more "reasonable" size (whatever that is) for the population we have the reduction in tax revenue would be extremely painful.

I have come to agree with that Just the Facts. I realized that I was part of the problem of our voracious appetite for resources without noticing it by simply working for the "American dream". I still like / want a little space, but we have got to be smarter and modify the "American dream" to fit what we have learned over the last half century.

I think "a little space" is extremely isolating. I think about how I grew up. We lived in a neighborhood of average-sized houses and nice-sized yards. But we had no fences. We hung our wash out on the clothesline and the moms chatted while they hung up clothes. Because there were no fences we kids had an entire block as our playground, and we spent all day traveling around it. Our parents didn't have to worry about us crossing the street because there was no reason to. One family had a great swingset, one a great treehouse, one a pool (there was a fence around it, of course). One family had a weeping willow with branches that hung to the ground and made a great "playhouse". Our parents did the same. One night after work they'd be on one family's patio having a beer and chatting, another night there'd be a group barbecue. We knew every person on our block by name and were welcome to stop by any kitchen for a glass of water if we were out playing and thirsty.

What have we gained with our own private acreages, fenced and private? Most of us know our neighbors as people we wave at as we pull into our garages. That's the last time we see them.

I know almost all of my neighbors now that I'm living without a fenced yard. We meet when we take our dogs out to the common area, or walking them in the evenings. For some reason, people living among people seem to be friendlier and more interested in chatting. I feel like I live in a real neighborhood more now than I ever have since childhood.

This. I think he looks and sounds like a nice guy, I've just had nothing but policy differences with him.

Quite on point.

The City is full of really, really nice people (and a few bad apples, but that's normal). However, many of them are not educated or edquipped to run a large city. City employees tend to treat OKC like a small town, only thinking about their direct sphere of influence (both related to job task and also related to where they spend the most time in their off-hours in OKC).

That is what I meant by a "little" space Betts. I don't need or want acreage - just a little outside green space I can plant a garden or whatever if I choose to. I grew up on a lot of military bases and the kids ran around everywhere - no fences to limit neighborhood wide games of hide and seek or freeze tag! It was also common to be able to grab a hot dog at a random neighbor's cookout as we ran by. We have completely lost the idea of neighborhoods in many places and instead have "developments".

This is one of the reasons I feel it is vitally important for OKC to get downtown - and this boulevard - right. If the city leadership sets the conditions for real neighborhoods to be developed, I think they will be surprised at how quickly the area south of the old Crosstown will fill in. This street will be a catalyst for returning neighborhoods to downtown OKC IF it is done properly. It cannot be just another high speed getaway route for people to escape to the suburbs.

Two things were pointed out yesterday that I think are important:

The Arena, the park and the Convention Center and hotel will take up almost all the land along the unelevated boulevard. Our best chance for developable space is to keep it at ground level as long as possible. The other point I thought was great was that people won't want to live or shop west of the park if they've got blight right behind them on the west side. And there's no one who will be interested in improving land on either side of a wall, be it grass or concrete.

Someone called this OKC's Berlin Wall. That is about as accurate as it can be described.

Is it just me, am I the only one upset that its going from 6 lanes to 4? This boulevard is going to be the gateway to downtown, which many people will access. Having only 4 lanes means its going to be tight, and if it gets too congested, people are going to want to avoid it, which will defeat its purpose. All for the glory of the new convention center, right?

This is probably the single most important thing that will effect downtown development for years to come, lets do it right...

Is it just me, am I the only one upset that its going from 6 lanes to 4? This boulevard is going to be the gateway to downtown, which many people will access. Having only 4 lanes means its going to be tight, and if it gets too congested, people are going to want to avoid it, which will defeat its purpose. All for the glory of the new convention center, right?

This is probably the single most important thing that will effect downtown development for years to come, lets do it right...

I'm pretty sure it's only you. The idea of it being "tight" is not a bad thing. Sixth Street in Austin is "tight," but it's also a vibrant, teeming area of development where people want to be. If you're in a hurry to get downtown and you're not just touring or looking around, you'll take another exit from I-40.

Is it just me, am I the only one upset that its going from 6 lanes to 4? This boulevard is going to be the gateway to downtown, which many people will access. Having only 4 lanes means its going to be tight, and if it gets too congested, people are going to want to avoid it, which will defeat its purpose. All for the glory of the new convention center, right?

This is probably the single most important thing that will effect downtown development for years to come, lets do it right...

Depends on what you mean by purpose. The purpose isn't to be a second I-40.

Is it just me, am I the only one upset that its going from 6 lanes to 4? This boulevard is going to be the gateway to downtown, which many people will access. Having only 4 lanes means its going to be tight, and if it gets too congested, people are going to want to avoid it, which will defeat its purpose. All for the glory of the new convention center, right?

This is probably the single most important thing that will effect downtown development for years to come, lets do it right...

If it is 6 lanes....just go ahead and imagine Broadway Extension turning into Broadway in Edmond. Same Picture.

The amount of traffic this roadway will need to carry seems like it will be pretty minimal.

Especially if it's elevated with no fronting development, why would someone exit miles to the west then take a surface street rather than just take one of the downtown exists off I-40? Plus, the exiting traffic will only be coming from westbound I-40.

We don't need another wide, elevated roadway like Shield Blvd. to the south.

Is it just me, am I the only one upset that its going from 6 lanes to 4? This boulevard is going to be the gateway to downtown, which many people will access. Having only 4 lanes means its going to be tight, and if it gets too congested, people are going to want to avoid it, which will defeat its purpose. All for the glory of the new convention center, right?

This is probably the single most important thing that will effect downtown development for years to come, lets do it right...

Going from 6 lanes to 4 lanes is doing it 'right'. I am not sure what you mean by gateway. I know many City leaders have used that term as well but I don't think they know what it means either.

I have actually always really liked Eric. I have high hopes that he will grow into the position and will make a real go at it. At the moment, the new job is probably daunting. The man is highly organized from my conversations with him and I hope that he will actually be able to influence the processes below him in time.

I still have faith that he will be a good pick for OKC in the long run.

I agree - from the very brief conversation I had with him and from email correspondence I think he is a pretty good guy.

I disagree, you can have 6 lanes, with pedestrian friendly medians, bicycle lanes, and slower speeds. If its just another 4 lanes with landscaped medians, you might as well call it Reno Ave. 2.0, lol.

Going from 6 lanes to 4 lanes is doing it 'right'. I am not sure what you mean by gateway. I know many City leaders have used that term as well but I don't think they know what it means either.

If it were 6 lanes, it would be another getaway road rather than a gateway.

I think Pete is probably right, many people will use I40 until they are roughly perpendicular to their downtown destination, then use one of the ramps and north-south streets to get to the boulevard and downtown. That is perfectly fine since they will be going to destinations downtown.

The primary reason for keeping the width down to 4 traffic lanes with street side parking, speed limits around 25-30 mph, and at grade is to set conditions conducive to private investment along the boulevard, thereby creating these destinations. Once you have four traffic lanes, street side parking lanes, and the landscaped median and sidewalks, that is a pretty wide right of way. you want people to feel comfortable crossing the street even during peak traffic periods. If kept at grade, and designed to facilitate people leisurely walking across and around it, there will be MORE land bordering the boulevard for economic development not to mention the revitalization of the Farmer's Market district. That area has a head start thanks to a lot of effort by the business owners to keep the district alive on life support while waiting for the Crosstown to come down.

http://www.facebook.com/events/347534108654775/349521278456058/?notif_t=plan_mall_activity

We need help with this event. Volunteers are meeting today at Saints in the Plaza District, 5:30 PM


Highway to Boulevard: Reclaiming and Revitalizing Our City

A Friends for A Better Boulevard Town Hall Forum

Monday, August 13, 2012
6:30pm

Doors open at 5:00. Refreshments available.

A discussion regarding traffic management, urban planning, benefits of Highway-to-Boulevard conversion, and roundabouts both in relation to the OKC Boulevard and the city as a whole.

Speakers will include former Milwaukee Mayor John Norquist (1988-2004) under whose tenure saw the conversion of an above-grade highway to a successful at-grade revitalization project and Ourston Roundabout Engineering President Mark Lenters who has designed some of the most notable roundabouts in the world.

An ODOT public meeting regarding the design of the Boulevard is tentatively scheduled for August 21st. Educating ourselves in a timely manner regarding the principles needed for citizen engagement in the public deliberation of imminent Boulevard design decisions is critical.

Sign up here if your on Facebook- http://www.facebook.com/events/347534108654775/349521278456058/?notif_t=plan_mall_activity

The reason why I thought it was going from 6 lanes to 4, was to make more room for the convention center.

Nm

The reason why I thought it was going from 6 lanes to 4, was to make more room for the convention center.

That may have been a reason thrown out there by someone, but I think it would be the right decision for the wrong reason. The goal should be to make the boulevard easy for pedestrians and drivers to get to the adjacent destinations in a revitalized downtown.

Is it just me, am I the only one upset that its going from 6 lanes to 4? This boulevard is going to be the gateway to downtown, which many people will access. Having only 4 lanes means its going to be tight, and if it gets too congested, people are going to want to avoid it, which will defeat its purpose.
This would seem to make sense but doesn't actually pan out. 23rd from Broadway to Western was an embarrassingly decrepit stretch of road before they "tightened" it up with sidewalks and medians with trees. Now it is one of the cooler places to travel through, whether bike, foot, or car. Locals know they can just hop on the broadway extension if they need to get somewhere.

I'm not saying 23rd is the standard by which to measure the boulevard.. I'm saying, if you lived here in the late 90s you know how bad that stretch was and how much improvement was made just by a little streetscaping.

I've been thinking about this elevated embankment. If they are really going to build that... If that is really where we end back up to... Then the most needs to be made of it. I mean New York style "High Line" parallel to the roadway so that people can actually use it for jogging, walking, bicycling with occasional ramps and steps to get down/up, to/from, the neighborhoods below.

I'm not advocating for it, but it seems as though even the elevated design is out of a World's Fair Futurama GM model for your car viewing pleasure. Quite a few trees, landscaping, and a hell of a sprinkler system to keep it irrigated without anybody to actually interact with it unless they have a blown out tire up there.

I disagree, you can have 6 lanes, with pedestrian friendly medians, bicycle lanes, and slower speeds. If its just another 4 lanes with landscaped medians, you might as well call it Reno Ave. 2.0, lol.

You make it sound like thats bad thing. The "one central artery" belief is why the original crosstown was built. Besides the "Gateway" has to cross through an interchange at EK Gaylord and the boulevard so if you have congestion it will be there.

Actually, the city would be just fine if the I-40 ramps, err I mean boulevard was connected directly into California which in turn runs into a T-intersection at Walker. Walker is than used to equally distribute traffic between Reno and the Boulevard or just call it 3rd st if you don't like the boulevard terminology.

Of course this will freak people out who like to connect two line segments with one straight line.

From Newsok.com:


http://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/r620-5c1a7af255ebe0e04f048924cec087e4.jpg
An elevated downtown boulevard between Western and Walker Avenues, as shown in this drawing looking west,
is advocated by the Oklahoma Department of Transportation

http://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/r620-b3937050b9222c45c3410aa69a51d8de.jpg
The Oklahoma Department of Transportation advocates building the new downtown boulevard as an elevated roadway
crossing Classen Boulevard as shown in this drawing

That is still a limited access road no matter how you dress it up. Lipstick on a pig anyone? I understand why ODOT and city engineers would advocate this design - it is the most expeditious one to construct by far. But I do not think anyone would say it is the best design for our city.

For 6 lanes, I was thinking something like this:

http://www.brookwoodgroup.com/graphics/news/2010_bloom_001.jpg

This is what Kerry wants to see:

http://www.95deg.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/02-The-main-road-into-town-was-a-massive-one-way-6-lane-wide-boulavard.jpg

Have you ever tried crossing Peachtree in this area? It is a death wish.

This is what Kerry wants to see:

Nope. Guess again.

For 6 lanes, I was thinking something like this:

http://www.brookwoodgroup.com/graphics/news/2010_bloom_001.jpg

That's not bad - certainly an improvement over any elevated design. I still think it is too wide to be easy to cross at a leisurely pace and a road that wide will encourage excessive speed in my opinion. If you took the two innermost lanes and made them part of the median - maybe allowing for turn lanes at some but not all intersections - then you are much closer to what I personally think the blvd should look like. I like the inclusion of bike lanes, the sidewalk "furniture", and the landscaping in the median. I would like more of a good thing though.

That's just a six lane road. You can't walk on the median. If we're going to have a boulevard, it should be like St. Charles in New Orleans. I'd love to see the streetcar run in it, as we'd be required to make it easy to get to and from the median that way, but it sounds like there will be pole/s in the way. I'd like to see the center median have sidewalks. I know there was one picture of it at one point in time that showed cafe tables and chairs scattered about. I suspect they would end up in someone's shopping cart rather quickly, but certainly benches would be nice. And I agree with UP. If we do everything we can to stop the elevated portion and it doesn't happen, then we need to make sure there are access ramps/stairs for bikes and pedestrians scattered along it that are independent of the car ramps.

But, if any of you care about a sensible plan, you need to make a point of going to every meeting possible. Too many people expect somebody else to make the effort and then they complain when they don't get what they want. Go to the meetings and bring your friends and family, write your city councilman/woman, write the mayor. Remember that a surprisingly few number of people vote in city council and mayoral elections and every vote counts. If they know you'd consider voting for the competition if they're not responsive, you may find your councilperson surprisingly agreeable.

I think it is an excellent idea to make the median wide enough for the streetcar. It would be very easy for riders to safely board and get off and easily go to either side of the boulevard. That is definitely more of a good thing in my book. I assume the right of way is sufficiently wide to accommodate a median that large. Would you want some sort of "stop" structure or simply a place for the streetcar to stop and let people on and off?

Try Avenue of the Arts in Philadelphia as THE example OKC should be striving for in an urban boulevard.

I am thinking closer to Ben Franklin Parkway in Philadelphia - at least from what I can see in satellite photos. Just need to ignore the "Parkway" part of the name. That truly is grand even if very wide. Lots of green with iconic medians, parking lanes, and oh my Lord -roundabouts! The main thing I would change about that street is require building at the sidewalk with no setback and I would narrow it from 6 to 4 lanes changing the two innermost lanes to part of the median. I know you have mentioned this street before and I think a narrower version could work quite well. Philadelphia is a city I would like to visit some day. Got lost trying to get back to the airport and that is about all I have ever seen.

"Hey look! That flyover bridge has Buffalos painted on it. I think I will change my opinion"

Mongo like buffalos.

I am thinking closer to Ben Franklin Parkway in Philadelphia - at least from what I can see in satellite photos. Just need to ignore the "Parkway" part of the name. That truly is grand even if very wide. Lots of green with iconic medians, parking lanes, and oh my Lord -roundabouts!

Oh, God! No! Not the roundabouts!!! Oh! The carnage! The chaos! All who see this, pray... I beg of you, pray for the poor people of Philadelphia. How do they make it through the pain and the tragedy? Day after day, the horror and evil of the roundabout is there, mocking the good citizens in the cradle of democracy. And what of the children?

Have you ever tried crossing Peachtree in this area? It is a death wish.

Yeah, to be honest, Peachtree isn't exactly pedestrian central. A lot of that is just because the YPs in Buckhead would rather drive their BMWs a block and repark, and as a result traffic is so horrendous in Atlanta.

All joking asside, Ben Franklin Parkway is an amazing and beautiful street, and I don't see why we cant have something like that (or at least something similar) instead of what is being proposed by ODOT

I think it is an excellent idea to make the median wide enough for the streetcar. It would be very easy for riders to safely board and get off and easily go to either side of the boulevard. That is definitely more of a good thing in my book.

The streetcar is only going to be on the boulevard from Robinson to Gaylord/Shields. If it had gone down to, say, Walker, then I'd agree with that.



http://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/r620-5c1a7af255ebe0e04f048924cec087e4.jpg
An elevated downtown boulevard between Western and Walker Avenues, as shown in this drawing looking west,
is advocated by the Oklahoma Department of Transportation


The only way this could ever be pedestrian friendly is if a sidewalk was built right down the middle of that green swath and connected to the streets below via stairs at each overpass on either side, but I doubt ODOT is in the business of target practice since the speeds on the elevated portions will be higher than 25mph. Oh, and I can't wait to see a car topple over the side and crash 20 feet below. I commend the person that did these renderings but the idea is ppffffftt!

The streetcar is only going to be on the boulevard from Robinson to Gaylord/Shields. If it had gone down to, say, Walker, then I'd agree with that.

True, but can't the streetcar routes be expanded later?