It is just amazing that the State of Oklahoma would not have any control over the Indian Casinos in this state. The casinos are totally self regulated. I can imagine the huge profits that they have bragged about over the last several years when they regulate the amount of money that they take from customers. I started this new thread because my other threat suddenly disappeared. Maybe some of the posters were casino employees and didn't want the truth getting out about the low payouts in these casinos. No oversight and no regulation.

I think you are right, there is something fishy going on here!

They're run by sovereign nations.

If you don't think casinos are good entertainment options for you, don't go. If you think you can make a career out of gambling, you're a moron. These are entertainment options, period. Of course they're going to make money. The only reason they should have any payouts at all is to entice folks to play. If you're running a casino, you want to pay out as little as possible without injuring your business. If the construction cranes surrounding damn near every casino around are evidence of the success or failure of these payout policies, then I guess they don't need WATCHER's help on how to run their businesses.

I started this new thread because my other threat suddenly disappeared.

Don't surprised if this one follows a similar path.

That other thread didn't disappear, it was closed.

Had nothing to do with "truth getting out", it was more a matter of someone registering and posting for the exclusive purpose of bashing Indian casinos.


As stated, the whole reason these casinos operate in the first place is because the properties they sit on are self-governing. If you don't like the payouts, don't go.

Otherwise, what is there to discuss?

How can a gas station be self governing Pete? Remington Park wasn't self governing until the Indians bought it.....

Remington Park is a different matter and required specific government exceptions.

Pete the Indians purchase land from farmers and or individuals throw up a building and call it Indian land, it is what it is that's all.

Actually, I over-simplified the nature of Indian Gaming regulation.


For Class III gaming (slot machines, etc.) each state has it's own tribal-state agreements.

You can read more about Oklahoma's compact here:

http://ok.gov/OSF/faqs.html#c252


Indian tribes are the primary regulators of Class II gaming. Regulation of Class III gaming may be addressed in Tribal-State compacts and varies by state with tribes remaining the primary regulator in most states. In Oklahoma, the tribes are the primary regulators of both Class II and Class III gaming. Both Class II and Class III gaming are subject to the provisions of the IGRA and oversight by the NIGC.

That other thread didn't disappear, it was closed.

Had nothing to do with "truth getting out", it was more a matter of someone registering and posting for the exclusive purpose of bashing Indian casinos.


As stated, the whole reason these casinos operate in the first place is because the properties they sit on are self-governing. If you don't like the payouts, don't go.

Otherwise, what is there to discuss?


Hey Pete!! There isn't anything wrong with talking about these unregulated casinos. People need to know about it. How long do you allow threads to be open here? Just because someone calls them out on the way they play isn't bashing these casinos. If anything it would make them play fair with our citizens and the tourist that pass through the state. I started that threat and was attacked by other posters that had nothing to add but berating me. I am sure that their are others that feel the same way I feel. Let's be fair to the posters here.

Actually, I over-simplified the nature of Indian Gaming regulation.


For Class III gaming (slot machines, etc.) each state has it's own tribal-state agreements.

You can read more about Oklahoma's compact here:

http://ok.gov/OSF/faqs.html#c252

You are correct about them regulating the Class II games and for some reason the State of Oklahoma decided not to regulate their payout percentages so in reality they can set their machines to zero payout if they choose to do so. That isn't fair to the citizens of Oklahoma that play in their casinos and most of them are retired elderly people. From what I understand the citizens are getting angry about the payouts and I have heard that there is a lawsuit pending in Tulsa over those payouts. I guess we will see how it turns out in court. It doesn't hurt anything for people to be aware of how these casinos operate.

Pete, as part of the updates to the site, can you install a kook filter?

Ye Olde General Rule of Gaming on Ye Thresholde of the Cusp of The Colonial American Frontier (c.1663):
Wisdom does not dictateth f*****king around with The Natives fishing rightes.
Including the suckers who play slot machines.
When the Natives have enough money sell them derivitives
In a Market-place without walls or streets.

They're run by sovereign nations.

If you don't think casinos are good entertainment options for you, don't go. If you think you can make a career out of gambling, you're a moron. These are entertainment options, period. Of course they're going to make money. The only reason they should have any payouts at all is to entice folks to play. If you're running a casino, you want to pay out as little as possible without injuring your business. If the construction cranes surrounding damn near every casino around are evidence of the success or failure of these payout policies, then I guess they don't need WATCHER's help on how to run their businesses.[QUOTE=Midtowner;539731]They're run by sovereign nations.



That is an interesting comment. Enticing people to play?? How is this done? They entice them to play by saying they have the largest payouts and more winners when in fact they have very low payouts and a very poor chance of anybody winning anything. Nobody walks into a casino to lose and the only entertainment is winning. When nobody is winning the entertainment value disappears and the scam begins. These casinos have been successful because they were drawing lots of people to their casinos because they were playing fair and the payouts were good. That isn't the case anymore. You are the moron if you think that casinos are just entertainment and the people who run those casinos are morons if they think it is just entertainment. The State of Oklahoma needs to intervene and regulate these Indian Casinos for the people they represent or just say they represent the casinos so the citizens understand which side the state government is on.

Pete, as part of the updates to the site, can you install a kook filter?

Why would you want to be filtered out. I like this website.

I started this new thread because my other threat suddenly disappeared.

That's hard to believe

Remington Park is a different matter and required specific government exceptions.


Remington Park only has the Class III machines. The same as the machines in Las Vegas. The Class II machines are being called bingo games at this point but that could change in 2014 if the courts decide in favor of the state. The Class II machines are the bread and butter of the casinos.

When these casinos were playing fair it was hard to find a machine to play on any given afternoon or evening. They were packed with players. That isn't the case these days. These days you find maybe one or two players at each bank of machines or no players at all on some banks.

The tribes also hire outside casino management companies to run their casinos. These companies are not part of the tribe. I wonder just how many of these casino management companies are from Las Vegas and operate here because of the lack of state regulations.The State of Nevada makes the casinos play fair with their players and look at the palaces they have built by playing fair. I believe regulation would be good for these tribal casinos and it would help the tribes maintain their reputations.

That other thread didn't disappear, it was closed.

Had nothing to do with "truth getting out", it was more a matter of someone registering and posting for the exclusive purpose of bashing Indian casinos.


As stated, the whole reason these casinos operate in the first place is because the properties they sit on are self-governing. If you don't like the payouts, don't go.

Otherwise, what is there to discuss?

It may be time to end the self governing status of the tribes in this state because citizens of this state are getting involved. I stopped playing several months ago because I caught on to the low payouts but I do like to play when playing is fair. Self governing or not a person should expect to be treated fairly on Indian Land and if it isn't fair then The State should get involved. This is America and not Indian Country anymore. These tribes should have to live under our laws and our rules.

Uh, no, they do not. That is why states enter into gaming compacts with the tribes. They are not under the control of the state. That you dislike this doesn't change that basic fact. For all your ranting, you offer nothing beyond the rants. Not a single shred of anything except you don't like that you canna win like you once did. Do get over it and try to find ore in life than your mission to bash on casinos.

It's quite possible you're a nice enough chap, chock full of interesting stories and opinions. But until you can let go, or at least tune down, your hatred and zealot status against gaming operations by tribes, it is also quite probable no one will ever see any other side to you.

There is so much more to OKC and Oklahoma in general than hating on tribal gaming. I hope you find some time to experience some of it.

Nobody walks into a casino to lose and the only entertainment is winning.

This is what you are missing. EVERYBODY that walks into a casino is going to lose eventually, there are no winners except the house, ever. Anyone that thinks otherwise is the moron.

State government has little to no say here. The casinos are regulated by NIGC, if you want payouts published petition the feds.

Uh, no, they do not. That is why states enter into gaming compacts with the tribes. They are not under the control of the state. That you dislike this doesn't change that basic fact. For all your ranting, you offer nothing beyond the rants. Not a single shred of anything except you don't like that you canna win like you once did. Do get over it and try to find ore in life than your mission to bash on casinos.

It's quite possible you're a nice enough chap, chock full of interesting stories and opinions. But until you can let go, or at least tune down, your hatred and zealot status against gaming operations by tribes, it is also quite probable no one will ever see any other side to you.

There is so much more to OKC and Oklahoma in general than hating on tribal gaming. I hope you find some time to experience some of it.

I read the Daily Oklahoman to see what is going on around the state. You don't have a clue about what I am involved in. When these casinos were playing fair it was great for players but they are not playing fair these days and people have a right to call them on their unfair play. I suggest that you live your life in the manner that you want to live it and I will do the same.

This is what you are missing. EVERYBODY that walks into a casino is going to lose eventually, there are no winners except the house, ever. Anyone that thinks otherwise is the moron.

State government has little to no say here. The casinos are regulated by NIGC, if you want payouts published petition the feds.

Soon the state will have everything to say about it because the courts are getting involved with the low payouts. State regulation is coming to Indian Country. Oklahoman's have figured out the scheme and changes are coming soon. As far as everyone losing when they play in a casino? I have a friend that turned in 80,000 dollars to the IRS in gambling winnings two years ago. Last year he turned in 40,000 dollars and so far this years he has only won around 5000 dollars. Can you see the trend son?

If the tribes can't self regulate they will need some help in the future. The gaming contract with the state will have to be amended to protect the citizens of the state. I think that the tribes are running out of time to regulate themselves because so far they have failed. Intervention may be on the way for Oklahoman's.

... You don't have a clue about what I am involved in. ...

Let's see now.
You post, frequently, and bash on casinos. You post no other topics, at least here.
You acknowledge you have a revenge motive, and do not act from any sense of duty or desire to educate.
You claim you post on up to 40 locations on the single topic of trashing tribal casino operations.
You belittle anyone who doesn't share you sense of revenge for casino operations.
You appear to fabricate from thin air most if not all your alleged facts as you trash casinos.
You belittle or berate anyone who even suggests there may be something involved other than dishonesty.
You enjoy hanging out in casinos even when you don't gamble, and make fun of those who do.
You are self professed to enjoying following non-smokers around and blowing smoke at them.
You apparently know some gamblers who put your efforts to shame based on your reports.


All I know about you comes from you. Such is often the case with someone who rants on one topic and only one topic from an anonymous corner.

But for all the ranting, you've yet to establish anything that suggests you're even remotely correct in your beliefs, outside your own obsessed mind anyway.

But nah, you're probably otherwise well-rounded, not that you give any indication of it, but sure, benefit of the doubt and all that.

Let's see now.
You post, frequently, and bash on casinos. You post no other topics, at least here.
You acknowledge you have a revenge motive, and do not act from any sense of duty or desire to educate.
You claim you post on up to 40 locations on the single topic of trashing tribal casino operations.
You belittle anyone who doesn't share you sense of revenge for casino operations.
You appear to fabricate from thin air most if not all your alleged facts as you trash casinos.
You belittle or berate anyone who even suggests there may be something involved other than dishonesty.
You enjoy hanging out in casinos even when you don't gamble, and make fun of those who do.
You are self professed to enjoying following non-smokers around and blowing smoke at them.
You apparently know some gamblers who put your efforts to shame based on your reports.


All I know about you comes from you. Such is often the case with someone who rants on one topic and only one topic from an anonymous corner.

But for all the ranting, you've yet to establish anything that suggests you're even remotely correct in your beliefs, outside your own obsessed mind anyway.

But nah, you're probably otherwise well-rounded, not that you give any indication of it, but sure, benefit of the doubt and all that.

Well rounded?? I retired at the young age of fifty just before Bush was elected and ruined our economy. I made enough money from the Clinton economy to have enough money to kick back for the rest of my life. I call that well rounded. As far as this so called obsession. When I see a scam I feel the need to bring it out in the open. If everyone in this country would do that we would have these scams being ran on our citizens. I am thinking that you might be a member of one of these tribes because you seem to have an obsession with protecting this scam. Am I close???

Oh and Kevin!! I have never berated anyone that didn't berate me first. It isn't my fault that you disagree with my opinion of these casinos but I have a right to state my opinion so far in this country.

Nope, not a tribal member.
Some people just set off my BS radar when they rant on and no with zero factual support.
When it gets as thick as it is in your trashing threads, I tend to call it.

Speaking of BS, the notion you never belittle first ... a bit laughable.

As for no control over the casinos, the state's control is the gaming compact. Your real issue is you think the state failed to insist on a greater level of control, not that no controls exist over the industry. Your support for the position is quite weak, but your focus really ought to be correcting that issue. Trashing the casinos ight satisfy some revenge you feel inside, but it is not going to effect meaningful change.

There is an old adage of when you're up to your arse in gators it's hard to remember your task is drain the swamp. It might be time for you to stop with the gators and focus on the swamp instead. Just saying.

Nope, not a tribal member.
Some people just set off my BS radar when they rant on and no with zero factual support.
When it gets as thick as it is in your trashing threads, I tend to call it.

Speaking of BS, the notion you never belittle first ... a bit laughable.

As for no control over the casinos, the state's control is the gaming compact. Your real issue is you think the state failed to insist on a greater level of control, not that no controls exist over the industry. Your support for the position is quite weak, but your focus really ought to be correcting that issue. Trashing the casinos ight satisfy some revenge you feel inside, but it is not going to effect meaningful change.

There is an old adage of when you're up to your arse in gators it's hard to remember your task is drain the swamp. It might be time for you to stop with the gators and focus on the swamp instead. Just saying.


So it is you with the obsession and not me. When this gaming compact was written it seems that the people with The State of Oklahoma were novices in the gambling industry because they didn't include a fairness doctrine in the payout percentages which is very important to the people who play the games. In fact that is probably the most important issue for the players.

This subject is actually interesting in terms of what regulation is in place, who is responsible, etc.

A discussion with more facts and research into this matter would draw in more people.

Now that we have seen what happens when the payout percentages of the casinos are not regulated it gives us a reason to amend the gaming compact with the tribes. I am sure that the members of these tribes want to make sure that the citizens of this state are treated in a fair manner and would surely welcome regulation on their payout percentages. They have a reputation to uphold.

This subject is actually interesting in terms of what regulation is in place, who is responsible, etc.

A discussion with more facts and research into this matter would draw in more people.

It might draw more people if it were listed under a different forum such as government. It is very hard to get facts about these casinos because they don't disclose anything but profits. Unlike Las Vegas they keep their payouts a secret from the public. Casino Managers in Las Vegas would do the same thing but state regulations won't allow them to keep that secret. I believe disclosure would help these tribes in the long run.

Assuming there is a problem, necessary as there are no facts presented, merely supposition, the most important question would be: what, if any, ability is there to re-examine the gaming compact? Like any agreement, sometimes people don't get everything they may want. Sometimes they don't appreciate, or perhaps don't care, about certain opportunities. If a bad bargain was made by the State, would there be a right for a do over?

Most agreements address within the agreement if, when, and/or under what conditions a modification would be possible.

Irrespective of whether the State made a great agreement, a moderate agreement, or a poor agreement, it may simply have to honor the agreement through its stated end date.

Liking the effect of the agreement, or not, is quite secondary to being able to do anything about it.

Assuming there is a problem, necessary as there are no facts presented, merely supposition, the most important question would be: what, if any, ability is there to re-examine the gaming compact? Like any agreement, sometimes people don't get everything they may want. Sometimes they don't appreciate, or perhaps don't care, about certain opportunities. If a bad bargain was made by the State, would there be a right for a do over?

Most agreements address within the agreement if, when, and/or under what conditions a modification would be possible.

Irrespective of whether the State made a great agreement, a moderate agreement, or a poor agreement, it may simply have to honor the agreement through its stated end date.

Liking the effect of the agreement, or not, is quite secondary to being able to do anything about it.


That end date is a decade from now. The citizens of this state will be the deciding factor. Citizens are now filing lawsuits over these payouts and I guess it will depend on the court whether an amendment can be made. I am sure that in the long run disclosure would help the tribes and their profits. Right now profits are down in the first quarter because of low attendance. I guess we will see at the end of the year how many people stop going into these casinos. Every business depends on customers. No customers. No business.

The only way to change a business practice is to boycott that business. They either abide by the rules of their customers or they lose their customers. I don't think that these casinos can survive on only new customers and that seems to be their plan.

citizen remedy is to vote with their feet to enter or not. that's pretty much the extent of the citizen remedy since there is zero requirement to participate in gaming. Again, if the state has made a bad agreement, and that's very much merely an if, bad agreements sometimes do exist, and the parties live with the bargain that was struck.

I get you don't like not knowing the payout level, or that perhaps it can change even on a whim. But, if the parties did not negotiate that aspect, then how would any change be contrary to the agreement?

Again, if people don't find tribal gaming a good deal, not going is the most effective tool available to them. Thus far, I've not seen any operation shut down or even curtail expansion plans so folks are not voting with their feet. Well, except for you and a few friends perhaps.

The comments you or someone attributed to a state official that competition would take care of payouts remaining competitive rings fairly true. If one tribal gaming operations are light compared to others, folks will make a shift. There aren't any real signs of that in the press however.

If I had to venture a guess on whether a center like Riverwind south of Norman will still be operation in five or ten years, my guess would be a solid yes. It's not my cup of tea, but their combination of gaming, concerts, dining and housing strikes me as a balanced approach, and they are far removed from selling off their parking space as excess property when I have driven down 9 headed out to Grady or beyond.

The only way to change a business practice is to boycott that business. They either abide by the rules of their customers or they lose their customers. I don't think that these casinos can survive on only new customers and that seems to be their plan.

I don't think you answered my question from the other thread, or if you did I didn't see it. What have you done other than complain on message boards. Have you contacted the governing board over the casino's? Have you contacted your State Representative?

I don't think you answered my question from the other thread, or if you did I didn't see it. What have you done other than complain on message boards. Have you contacted the governing board over the casino's? Have you contacted your State Representative?

My answer to your question is yes. I have a cousin that is a US Congressman and I have had long discussion with him about it.

citizen remedy is to vote with their feet to enter or not. that's pretty much the extent of the citizen remedy since there is zero requirement to participate in gaming. Again, if the state has made a bad agreement, and that's very much merely an if, bad agreements sometimes do exist, and the parties live with the bargain that was struck.

I get you don't like not knowing the payout level, or that perhaps it can change even on a whim. But, if the parties did not negotiate that aspect, then how would any change be contrary to the agreement?

Again, if people don't find tribal gaming a good deal, not going is the most effective tool available to them. Thus far, I've not seen any operation shut down or even curtail expansion plans so folks are not voting with their feet. Well, except for you and a few friends perhaps.

The comments you or someone attributed to a state official that competition would take care of payouts remaining competitive rings fairly true. If one tribal gaming operations are light compared to others, folks will make a shift. There aren't any real signs of that in the press however.

If I had to venture a guess on whether a center like Riverwind south of Norman will still be operation in five or ten years, my guess would be a solid yes. It's not my cup of tea, but their combination of gaming, concerts, dining and housing strikes me as a balanced approach, and they are far removed from selling off their parking space as excess property when I have driven down 9 headed out to Grady or beyond.

What about the people who want to play and and be treated fairly. Do they not have a say in this matter?

have a link to any of these lawsuits?

Kevin!!! I have to run and take care of another one of my passions. I will be back later.

My answer to your question is yes. I have a cousin that is a US Congressman and I have had long discussion with him about it.

Is he a Congressman in this state? So you haven't contact the Gaming Authority or any state government about your complaints but choose to post endless whines on here?

Kevin!!! I have to run and take care of another one of my passions. I will be back later.

Hope that other passion isn't train whistles LOL

[QUOTE=Midtowner;539731]They're run by sovereign nations.



That is an interesting comment. Enticing people to play?? How is this done? They entice them to play by saying they have the largest payouts and more winners when in fact they have very low payouts and a very poor chance of anybody winning anything. Nobody walks into a casino to lose and the only entertainment is winning. When nobody is winning the entertainment value disappears and the scam begins. These casinos have been successful because they were drawing lots of people to their casinos because they were playing fair and the payouts were good. That isn't the case anymore. You are the moron if you think that casinos are just entertainment and the people who run those casinos are morons if they think it is just entertainment. The State of Oklahoma needs to intervene and regulate these Indian Casinos for the people they represent or just say they represent the casinos so the citizens understand which side the state government is on.

Well then, maybe everyone will realize it's a scam and say home?

You can't fix stupid.

And your buddy who turned in all those winnings... how much did he lose? Sounds like someone has a serious problem.

Quick question, are decedents of indigenous peoples US Citizens now?

I thought all people that were born here are US citizens.

He had to make his casino trip to "observe"..... and to blow some smoke at people (in more ways than one)

[QUOTE=WATCHER;539877]

Well then, maybe everyone will realize it's a scam and say home?

You can't fix stupid.

And your buddy who turned in all those winnings... how much did he lose? Sounds like someone has a serious problem.

Not sure how much he invested. The guy makes about 500,000 a year with his ignorance. How are you doing with yours?

Quick question, are decedents of indigenous peoples US Citizens now?

The answer is yes they are but act as if they are not. I am sure that they enjoy the benefits of being Americans but don't seem to want to live as Americans or follow our laws in America.

[QUOTE=Midtowner;539979]

Not sure how much he invested. The guy makes about 500,000 a year with his ignorance. How are you doing with yours?

Guess it's you then since your friend seems to be winning. Maybe you just suck at gambling and are looking for an excuse.

The answer is yes they are but act as if they are not. I am sure that they enjoy the benefits of being Americans but don't seem to want to live as Americans or follow our laws in America.

Weren’t their 'laws' here first and we didn't follow them?

[QUOTE=WATCHER;540014]

Guess it's you then since your friend seems to be winning. Maybe you just suck at gambling and are looking for an excuse.


I guess you didn't get the point of me bringing up my friend. Year before last he made 80,000. Last year 40,000 and so far this year only 5000. Do I need to explain my point?

Weren’t their 'laws' here first and we didn't follow them?

From what I understand they were not tame before we tamed them so I assume they had no laws.

Is he a Congressman in this state? So you haven't contact the Gaming Authority or any state government about your complaints but choose to post endless whines on here?

I am not whining son just stating my opinion like you.

He had to make his casino trip to "observe"..... and to blow some smoke at people (in more ways than one)

I did stop by Riverwind to see how many people were playing the place was dead and so were the machines. I also stopped for lunch at the new Chey's Mexican joint. It is their grand opening. Good food and good service. I only blow smoke at people who act like idiots and make a big deal out of smoking. If more people would do the same they wouldn't act like idiots.

Soon the state will have everything to say about it because the courts are getting involved with the low payouts. State regulation is coming to Indian Country. Oklahoman's have figured out the scheme and changes are coming soon. As far as everyone losing when they play in a casino? I have a friend that turned in 80,000 dollars to the IRS in gambling winnings two years ago. Last year he turned in 40,000 dollars and so far this years he has only won around 5000 dollars. Can you see the trend son?
Depends on which court and if they have jurisdiction. Don't forget as sovereign nation status, tribes have their own governments, including governors, judiciary, legislators etc.

How much did he put in of his own money? Is that amount in gross winnings or net? Sure someone can be in the right place at the right time and win big. Most gamblers I know (myself included) will talk about the jackpot they hit but rarely tell you about the 100s or 1,000s of dollars they put into the machine of their own money to get that jackpot. There are even professional gamblers out there that really do make a living at such things. They may exist, but I have never heard of a professional slot machine player. Poker, video poker etc, but not slots. But over the lifetime, things are going to eventually turn to where the house wins. In virtually every casino game, the odds are in the houses's favor. Some games have higher percentages than others but the fact remains, you may win 1 year, 2 years or even more, but eventually you are going to lose. To quote you: "can you see the trend?"

Well rounded?? I retired at the young age of fifty just before Bush was elected and ruined our economy. I made enough money from the Clinton economy to have enough money to kick back for the rest of my life. I call that well rounded. As far as this so called obsession. When I see a scam I feel the need to bring it out in the open. If everyone in this country would do that we would have these scams being ran on our citizens. I am thinking that you might be a member of one of these tribes because you seem to have an obsession with protecting this scam. Am I close???

Well, now you can blame both parties for your unhappiness, since Democrat Henry is the Governor responsible for the mess you see in the casinos.

So it is you with the obsession and not me. When this gaming compact was written it seems that the people with The State of Oklahoma were novices in the gambling industry because they didn't include a fairness doctrine in the payout percentages which is very important to the people who play the games. In fact that is probably the most important issue for the players.
What is fair? You do realize that even if a casino has a payback of 75% or 98%, you are still going to lose your money over the long run...it is just a matter of time

From what I understand they were not tame before we tamed them so I assume they had no laws.


You're understanding is not only incorrect but asinine.