maps vote and police/fire staffing levels have nothing to do with one another ... have you ever heard a police union member in any city say we need less officers?? ...

I agree the two are unrelated. That's why I thought the police union's approach to oppose was misguided and would backfire on them. That said, we need more cops, and I don't really care what cops in other cities say.

^^

To direct 10% of your police force away from other parts of the city is significant. Its not like crime breaks for the Thunder games.

You also have to realize that police generally work in three shifts, so there's probably 360ish officers on duty at one point. 100 of 360 cops is even more significant.

I hate that Thunder Alley is closed, but I'm sympathetic to the reasoning that this city, like others, has finite resources. Would you rather have to pay overtime for extra police to secure Thunder Alley over several games or get the huge pothole in your street fixed? It then becomes a question of priorities.

My point is that perspective and a specific connection has to be made between the current number of police presently employed by the city and how that might have prevented this tragic incident.

That has not even been remotely established.

By all accounts there was a decent police presence IN and directly around Thunder Alley but not where many were walking and parked. This may have been a numbers issue and it may have not been.


And I can guarantee there are times when cities mobilize well more than 10% of their police force.

How do you suggest we take on the problem? It isn't like the Arena is in a remote area where people walk back to the cars and drive away. The whole original point was to creat an environment where people would spend hours before and after the game. It is easy to handle 30,000 people for 30 minutes while each tries to get to their destination. It is much harded to keep 30,000 people in line for 6 hours when they are all at their destination.

I don't know. I'm not an expert on policing or crowd control. Are you?

I agree it's probably hard, but other cities pull it off. I'm guessing it could be done.

Some people continually wanting to play the race card and be confrontational for the sake of the race argument need to move on to a new topic. Get past the race thing. Is it still with us, yes. But, maybe we as a people could move past it quicker if a segment of the population that want to lay that out there pertaining to every damn thing that happens, would not.

I wasn't laying it out there, I was just saying what some want to say but don't have the nads to come out and say it. Ignoring or tolerating bigotry and racism will not make it go away.

Some people continually wanting to play the race card and be confrontational for the sake of the race argument need to move on to a new topic. Get past the race thing. Is it still with us, yes. But, maybe we as a people could move past it quicker if a segment of the population that want to lay that out there pertaining to every damn thing that happens, would not.

It would be great to get past it, but have you read the comments posted on the Oklahoman? Geez. The race card was being played, but not by black folks. There was an embarrassing collection of straight-up racist comments -- not even "encoded." Things like: "Of course the shooter is black. Why would it be anyone else?"

It would be helpful for our country as a whole to move beyond the race comments, but events like this bring them out, particularly with the anonymity of the Internet. It's not productive but it goes on still.

In more polite circles, other, more encoded terminology is used.

Was that 10% of the total police force or just 10% of the police force that was on duty at that time? Maybe if the other 90% weren't out patroling 650 sq..... - ah, never mind.

It would be great to get past it, but have you read the comments posted on the Oklahoman? Geez. The race card was being played, but not by black folks. There was an embarrassing collection of straight-up racist comments -- not even "encoded." Things like: "Of course the shooter is black. Why would it be anyone else?"

It would be helpful for our country as a whole to move beyond the race comments, but events like this bring them out, particularly with the anonymity of the Internet. It's not productive but it goes on still.

In more polite circles, other, more encoded terminology is used.

Out of curosity, what make you madder; the racism of the poster or the fact that shooter really was black?

Out of curosity, what make you madder; the racism of the poster or the fact that shooter really was black?

The racism is a sign of ignorance and should not be tolerated, the shooters color should make no difference on what happened. I believe the reaction would be a lot different if it was some dumb white kid from Nichols Hills.

Out of curosity, what make you madder; the racism of the poster or the fact that shooter really was black?

Someone shooting someone else is an outrage, regardless of race. Why is the race relevant, unless it's a targeted hate crime? Racism makes me mad because it's unproductive and fosters unnecessary division among people -- and it creates unnecessary hostility that sometimes leads to violence.

I think you're trying to say that people are mad that the fact the shooter was black was pointed out. That doesn't bother me. If the shooter were white would it have made a difference? It still would have been an outrageous crime.

I lived in the Denver area for about 19 years and the only time I saw a gangster was when I had business to do in the Aurora Area. On the west side of Denver they profiled people who appeared to be out of place so you didn't see many out of place people in our area and when you did they were usually talking to a police officer. Here in Oklahoma City these gangsters are almost everywhere and don't seem to be out of place at all.

Well quite frankly, we don't have that nice of a city. Nicer looking city = nicer looking people

Pants down below your rear end,horrible music blaring from your car stereo filled with profanity,baseball cap on sideways and the horrid unintelligable attempts at the english language as well as showing no repspect for themselves/others is a good starting point although not a 100% foolproof method.

I think you just described these guys:
http://images2.makefive.com/images/experiences/life/your-lifestyle/white-gangsta-7.jpg

The one on the right looks familiar...

I think I read somewhere that the two groups knew each other, evidently that is how suspects were identified so quickly, the victims knew who the perpetrators were. This is much different than the "random firing into a crowd" that some keep going on about, sure the shooter may have fired into a crowd but it was not a random act of violence, it was targeted at one or more persons in that crowd. Something like that could have just as easily happened outside a 7-11 in NW OKC (the area where the first suspect lived) and if that happened no one would think twice about it other than it is terrible that such things would happen. It has happened in many parts of town in years past. It just comes down to the fact that the first response of OKCPD is to shut everything down so they don't have to come up with a way to police something, that has pretty much always been the M.O. of the brass within the police department. The City of Austin has to deal with much larger crowds than this on a semi-regular basis between the large events and festivals (not including UT games in this) that can attract a "different kind of element" and APD doesn't exactly have the best reputation with minorities either but they seem to be able to handle it. There have been some isolated incidents (which this pretty much was) but they still haven't shut everything down over those incidents, they figured out a way to police these events.

I'm still wondering if there might be a market for car flags that look like white flags of surrender, with perhaps a faint outline of someone or something. Several possibilities.

The City of Norman handles the madness of every home OU football game. That includes people from all over the state, and the bad local element of Norman and surrounding areas also comes out. If the city of Norman can handle a much bigger crowd over a much larger area, it seems to me OKC can handle it. It makes me laugh to say this, but maybe we should get the bored summertime cops from Norman and Stillwater to patrol Bricktown and Downtown during the Thunder playoff games.

Of course when a young black person shoots eight people in a city that is known for gang violence people are going to focus on gang violence even if this young man is not associated with a gang. The point of closing down this event is not a racial issue. It is a safety issue. I was not at the gathering but from what I have read it seems that there were a lot of young black kids taunting fans that were exiting the arena and roaming around the area doing the same thing to people in the crowd. Maybe there were young white people doing the same thing but I haven't read any articles or post that stated that they were. Maybe this shooter wasn't involved with harassing the people that attended but the shooter had a gun and he used it and eight people were shot and that is a big deal for the city and our law enforcement that has the responsibility to make sure that people are safe. Sometimes common sense prevails and the city is using common sense on this issue.

I didn't see or hear anyone taunting anyone when exiting the arena. I saw people of all races in Thunder Alley and exiting the arena. As usual, the thing that irked me was all the trash on the ground, but you could say the same thing about the floor inside the arena. People at sporting events drop trash on the ground. I've attended all but one of the playoff games, and I've never once seen anything but a bunch of happy people celebrating, outside the arena and in Bricktown. Again, this shooting was not at the arena, and could have happened any given night, outside any sporting event, anywhere in town.

How, without having one policeman for every 10 people or so, do police keep people safe? Life is chancy. The more people you are around, the more risky it gets. Police can be a deterrent, but what kind of numbers would you need to make sure everyone is safe? Numbers no city can afford, I'm sure, and numbers that would give us the appearance of being a police state.

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Sometimes common sense prevails and the city is using common sense on this issue.


http://www.superhonda.com/photopost/data/519/57629weaksauce.jpg

It makes me laugh to say this, but maybe we should get the bored summertime cops from Norman and Stillwater to patrol Bricktown and Downtown during the Thunder playoff games.

I am actually surprised that doesn't already happen for big events. Here in Jax I see that (police from other districts) on occasions when we attend city-wide events. If the event involves any military activity we also see lots of SPs (Shore Patrol - Jax is a Navy town).

http://www.superhonda.com/photopost/data/519/57629weaksauce.jpg

This. LOL

When they found a failed attempt to blow up a vehicle in Times Square, they dinna tell people to go away long term, only for a bit. Not sure why a bunch of yankees can cope, but city leaders are convinced a bunch of Okies can not.

Money. NYC, especially after 911 - has a standing army. We don't. Their budget allows them to "police" areas that ebb and flow with the crowds that come with being a huge tourist city. We don't.

You think? If we could identify killers by fashion, grammar, and taste in music, police work would be a breeze.

I think the question was how can you tell a gangsta rather than killer.

I wasn't laying it out there, I was just saying what some want to say but don't have the nads to come out and say it. Ignoring or tolerating bigotry and racism will not make it go away.

Mindreading is such good fun.

The racism is a sign of ignorance and should not be tolerated, the shooters color should make no difference on what happened. I believe the reaction would be a lot different if it was some dumb white kid from Nichols Hills.

The second someone starts pulling out the "should" word, it is all over - they are disconnecting from reality, giving up on people and refusing to give them any benefit of the doubt, and getting sanctimoneous. If people don't say the wrong words, claim they were using code.

If you honestly think a white kid from Nichols Hills shooting into a crowd would be ignored, I think you are wrong. The sad thing is that it is far more likely that a black kid shooting into a crowd will be yesterday's news until the next time it happens - and then people will shrug and lay it at the feet of race. It would be front page news across the country if a white kid from Nichols Hills did it. And why is that? Because a rich white kid hardly ever does that but drive bys and random shooting into crowds is all too common in the hood - at least in many large cities with an "urban youth" problem. That's code, btw.

But it isn't about race - that isn't what causes the problem. Lay it at the feet of parents or any race who send their kids out at night looking like a thug, hanging around with thugs and not teaching them how to be civilized. The old addage of Bird of a Feather is good parenting advice.

Race issue or not it always seems to be two certain races of people in the OKC area that have this gang mentality. That is not to say you don't have gangs in other parts of the country that are white but here in our area it happens to be the tan people and the black people who form gangs. If it is going on right in front of you it is okay to call it like you see it without it being a race issue.

Money. NYC, especially after 911 - has a standing army. We don't. Their budget allows them to "police" areas that ebb and flow with the crowds that come with being a huge tourist city. We don't.

I had a visit with a police officer from the Santa Fe Division about a year ago and he was one of two officers that responded to all of the 911 calls in the South Oklahoma City area. That area is everything South of I-40 from the East edge of Oklahoma County( Almost to Shawnee) all the way West the the West side Mustang.2 officers.

Those "white flags" mentioned, above, might have been available at these places,
But they are pretty much history . . .

http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/32539442.jpg

http://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/w620-a0e8f1337aaa527e970c2940b816b884.jpg


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[This space reserved for Thunder Alley/(Bricktown?)]

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Well, I have been told by a long time member of the OKCPD, that the Bricktown association does not want a large police presence in B-town. And, what police are there, they, B-town association want them to be "good will ambassadors". The B-town is afraid that a large police show in B-town will give people the idea the area is not family friendly and scare folks away.

Either you were told that by your friend about 7 years ago, or your friend hasn't kept up with things. That was indeed the case around 2005 when the police recognized on their own that juvenile and gang member activity had increased in Bricktown, and upped their presence and enforcement based on this. Bricktown merchants and property owners had not yet recognized the problem existed (it happened very quickly), as most of them were only in the district by day, and the problem was ONLY a Friday/Saturday LATE NIGHT issue.

Merchants and owners started hearing feedback from customers and others that the police were blocking streets, parking tons of black and whites throughout the district with lights on, marshaling crowds in a no-nonsense manner, and otherwise acting in what was THEN perceived as a very heavy-handed way. Since Bricktown had NEVER had significant issues with crime, it was hard for owners and merchants to imagine such action was needed.

That all changed when the then-director of the association finally talked some board members into some late night outings to witness the issues for themselves. They began to work much more closely with law enforcement. Around that time some of the activity also came to a head, and that reinforced the decision to strongly support the actions of the police and in fact to ask the City for MORE cops and for a curfew.

All of those actions have been in place now for years, and there have been remarkably few incidents in Bricktown proper ever since. Most of the problems have centered around juveniles hanging out in Lower Bricktown late on weekend nights. Since this is private property, OCPD cannot patrol it. Also, the movie theater and cheaper fast food options, open plazas, etc. are inviting to kids. However, in the past few years Stonegate Hogan has made a major comittment to securing this area with off duty OK County Sheriff's deputies, and that area has improved greatly too.

It's really easy on this board (sometimes for good reason) to find people who want to blame/dog Bricktown, but they really were proactive when that problem emerged. But to suggest this incident was a manifestation of Bricktown's issues and not instead driven by that free uncontrolled Thunder Alley environment belies an ignorance of the ebbs and flows of Bricktown. Anyone who has seen a regular weekday evening in Bricktown would laugh at the idea of thugs roaming the streets at 11:30 on a Monday night. It just doesn't happen. This was clearly a case of the wrong people running into each other at that event, and escalating during the walk to their car, on a night that otherwise would have been mostly quiet in Bricktown, filled with business dinners and early-retiring bar goers. Period, end of story.

Mindreading is such good fun.

Don't have to be a mind reader to see bigotry and I don't see any fun in being a bigot or racist.

I appreciate the fact that you differentiated between "bigotry" and "racism".

A question:
Does a completely negative opinion, in regard to the cultural cancer of Urban Gangs, based upon years of experience and observation, make one a "bigot"?

The only positive aspect of Urban Gangs is that generally their victims are other Urban Gang members.
Generally. But that single positive aspect is offset by even one innocent victim of their violence.

Since there seems to be a lack of evidence at this point that the shooter in this case had a "gang connection" . . .
I guess I'm also a "bigot" in regard to "mind-altering" video games that he is almost certainly very fond of.

Can you imagine anyone with a properly functioning brain, not twisted by hours of "virtual murder" opening up on a crowd like that? Not that he is "innocent" by reason of insanity . . . I think that even mental illness can be terminal.

Those "white flags" mentioned, above, might have been available at these places,
But they are pretty much history . . .

http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/32539442.jpg

http://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/w620-a0e8f1337aaa527e970c2940b816b884.jpg


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[This space reserved for Thunder Alley/(Bricktown?)]

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+1

But it isn't about race - that isn't what causes the problem. Lay it at the feet of parents or any race who send their kids out at night looking like a thug, hanging around with thugs and not teaching them how to be civilized. The old addage of Bird of a Feather is good parenting advice.

I've always been a fan of parents getting some sort punishment for their child crimes. As an adult, you are responsible for the actions of your child and if you turn them lose on society and make them societys problem then you should have to answer for your lack of parenting. How does a minor get possession of a handgun and think its alright to unload a clip into a crowd of people? That doesnt happen over night or by a few lapses in parenting; it happens by a total abandonment of any responsibility as a parent.

Assuming the Bricktown Blues and BBQ Fest has also been shutdown since the same "dangerous" crowd may form??

I've always been a fan of parents getting some sort punishment for their child crimes. As an adult, you are responsible for the actions of your child and if you turn them lose on society and make them society's problem then you should have to answer for your lack of parenting. How does a minor get possession of a handgun and think its alright to unload a clip into a crowd of people? That doesn't happen over night or by a few lapses in parenting; it happens by a total abandonment of any responsibility as a parent.

I could have not said it any better! Too many irresponsible parents are to blame for irresponsible children -which create havoc on society and a burden to tax payers through courts and department of correction actions.

Either you were told that by your friend about 7 years ago, or your friend hasn't kept up with things. That was indeed the case around 2005 when the police recognized on their own that juvenile and gang member activity had increased in Bricktown, and upped their presence and enforcement based on this. Bricktown merchants and property owners had not yet recognized the problem existed (it happened very quickly), as most of them were only in the district by day, and the problem was ONLY a Friday/Saturday LATE NIGHT issue.

Merchants and owners started hearing feedback from customers and others that the police were blocking streets, parking tons of black and whites throughout the district with lights on, marshaling crowds in a no-nonsense manner, and otherwise acting in what was THEN perceived as a very heavy-handed way. Since Bricktown had NEVER had significant issues with crime, it was hard for owners and merchants to imagine such action was needed.

That all changed when the then-director of the association finally talked some board members into some late night outings to witness the issues for themselves. They began to work much more closely with law enforcement. Around that time some of the activity also came to a head, and that reinforced the decision to strongly support the actions of the police and in fact to ask the City for MORE cops and for a curfew.

All of those actions have been in place now for years, and there have been remarkably few incidents in Bricktown proper ever since. Most of the problems have centered around juveniles hanging out in Lower Bricktown late on weekend nights. Since this is private property, OCPD cannot patrol it. Also, the movie theater and cheaper fast food options, open plazas, etc. are inviting to kids. However, in the past few years Stonegate Hogan has made a major comittment to securing this area with off duty OK County Sheriff's deputies, and that area has improved greatly too.

It's really easy on this board (sometimes for good reason) to find people who want to blame/dog Bricktown, but they really were proactive when that problem emerged. But to suggest this incident was a manifestation of Bricktown's issues and not instead driven by that free uncontrolled Thunder Alley environment belies an ignorance of the ebbs and flows of Bricktown. Anyone who has seen a regular weekday evening in Bricktown would laugh at the idea of thugs roaming the streets at 11:30 on a Monday night. It just doesn't happen. This was clearly a case of the wrong people running into each other at that event, and escalating during the walk to their car, on a night that otherwise would have been mostly quiet in Bricktown, filled with business dinners and early-retiring bar goers. Period, end of story.
Well, you are obviously well versed on the situation down there and I appreciate your response. I'm not trying to be argumentative on this, but, he said that the morning after this latest incident and has worked that area as recently as a month ago.

Also, the movie theater and cheaper fast food options, open plazas, etc. are inviting to kids. However, in the past few years Stonegate Hogan has made a major comittment to securing this area with off duty OK County Sheriff's deputies, and that area has improved greatly too.

This is the #1 reason why most new lifestyle and town centers do not have a movie theater. Movie theaters seem to be the safest when there is nothing else to do in the immediate area except watch the movie. Putting the enterance to a movie theater up against a large public plaza was probably a huge mistake.

Wow another shooting in Bricktown, what are they going to do now, close down Zio's? Goes to show violence in Bricktown is bigger than Thunder Alley!

http://www.news9.com/story/18633919/one-arrested-in-early-sunday-morning-shooting-in-bricktown

Wow another shooting in Bricktown, what are they going to do now, close down Zio's? Goes to show violence in Bricktown is bigger than Thunder Alley!

http://www.news9.com/story/18633919/one-arrested-in-early-sunday-morning-shooting-in-bricktown

Zio's is closed at 2AM so it isn't Zio's related. The problem is not rocket science to figure out. An angry society and alcohol - what could possibly go wrong with that combination.

Definitely a good move by the Thunder.

http://newsok.com/thunder-to-hold-fundraiser-for-bricktown-shooting-victim/article/3679976

Definitely a good move by the Thunder.

http://newsok.com/thunder-to-hold-fundraiser-for-bricktown-shooting-victim/article/3679976

Plans for Thursday night.

http://newsok.com/police-presence-increased-for-first-post-shooting-thunder-alley/article/3679975