View Full Version : Thunder Alley - Security and Violence issues
lindsey 05-23-2012, 07:29 PM The more I think about it - the more I think it's fine not to show the games when that many and quality of people are showing up. Just go to your own place or a local establishment and watch it. The crowd was shady and I don't really blame the city or the police for not wanting to deal with it. How did it happen? That a bunch of punk kids decided the "cool" place to be was in TA and not somewhere else? Is it because there is nothing else to do in the city (like the MN writer said?) I don't know but goodbye tailgating outside of the arena - sorry for those families that enjoyed it, etc BUT not sorry for the people who weren't wearing Thunder gear, didn't care about the game...etc. Maybe it's time to let it go? Perhaps other cities don't do this exact same thing for a reason...?
Spartan 05-23-2012, 07:46 PM Now I almost hope we don't win the championship, because the victory parade would be awful..
Just kidding, Thunder Up..
kevinpate 05-23-2012, 07:47 PM This is an admission by OKC officials that OKC can't handle and deal with adverse situations. Big league cities everywhere deal with large crowds associated with sporting events all the time. Apparently OKC is still just a wide spot in the road. Big league city OKC-not. Bush league city = OKC. The mayor among others need to be called out on this big time.
Perhaps instead of those Thunder car flags, some enterprising person ought to see if there is a market for white flags of surrender. Even though it does now clearly appear the shooter and others were at TA and not merely harassing people as those other people left TA, it's still a poor decision to shut it down or limit it to only pre-game activities.
This also raises interesting questions.
What happens the next time there is a beat down outside a club in Bricktown? Does every club have to start closing at dusk to avoid late night anger mgmt. issues?
What happens if a shooting takes place down by the pedestrian bridge one night when folks are gathered for a concert or fireworks? Does the city pull the light plug and chain it off?
What about the next time some babydult decides to knock off a bank? Does everyone have to resort to only online banking?
What about the next time a Barons game ends at the same time as a mini-con at the Sheraton and a church event at the arena. That'll be somewhat close, on the low side anyway, to 5,000 people on the street at once.
What if a shooting happens after a bedlam ball game at the BT ballpark?
When they found a failed attempt to blow up a vehicle in Times Square, they dinna tell people to go away long term, only for a bit. Not sure why a bunch of yankees can cope, but city leaders are convinced a bunch of Okies can not.
Just the facts 05-23-2012, 08:03 PM Yeah . . . but it's a "different" crowd.
Let TNT and ESPN show some scenes on TV and you might start getting the same kind of turn out. This is probably why they use stock film of the skyline and canal, otherwise certain types would be stalking the camerman trying to get on TV.
soonerguru 05-23-2012, 08:24 PM Perhaps instead of those Thunder car flags, some enterprising person ought to see if there is a market for white flags of surrender. Even though it does now clearly appear the shooter and others were at TA and not merely harassing people as those other people left TA, it's still a poor decision to shut it down or limit it to only pre-game activities.
This also raises interesting questions.
What happens the next time there is a beat down outside a club in Bricktown? Does every club have to start closing at dusk to avoid late night anger mgmt. issues?
What happens if a shooting takes place down by the pedestrian bridge one night when folks are gathered for a concert or fireworks? Does the city pull the light plug and chain it off?
What about the next time some babydult decides to knock off a bank? Does everyone have to resort to only online banking?
What about the next time a Barons game ends at the same time as a mini-con at the Sheraton and a church event at the arena. That'll be somewhat close, on the low side anyway, to 5,000 people on the street at once.
What if a shooting happens after a bedlam ball game at the BT ballpark?
When they found a failed attempt to blow up a vehicle in Times Square, they dinna tell people to go away long term, only for a bit. Not sure why a bunch of yankees can cope, but city leaders are convinced a bunch of Okies can not.
Outstanding post. Our leaders don't know how to be a big city.
Double Edge 05-23-2012, 08:28 PM Yeah . . . but it's a "different" crowd.
Bingo not the clowno. While everyone is handwringing in this thread about how this is absolutely not possibly related to the event going on that night I was thinking about how no one ever gets shot during the arts festival AFAIK
SoonerBoy18 05-23-2012, 09:29 PM If thats the case why dont they cancel new year celebrations at bricktown?
Eddie1 05-23-2012, 09:43 PM Outstanding post. Our leaders don't know how to be a big city.
Well written, good points. Let the show go on
PennyQuilts 05-23-2012, 09:48 PM Considering this all started with a verbal altercation, if there had been a cop there they could have easily stepped in.
And, if kids (these guys were 16 & 19) are just hanging around, popping off their mouths, no one is going to complain if they are made to move along.
Problem is, they weren't just popping off. They came armed and shot into the crowd and we are just lucky someone wasn't killed and more weren't hurt.
I understand the frustration and the ramifications but just as soon as someone gets hurt after this, the city/police would be the first on the hook in the lawsuit that came after the next person was hurt at TA. The days when people would be expected to use common sense to avoid dangerous situations are gone, replaced by an implied guarantee that the police will keep us safe. If they don't, they get sued. And because of that, the end result is that we have less cool stuff to enjoy. The tail is wagging the dog.
RadicalModerate 05-23-2012, 10:18 PM Bingo not the clowno. While everyone is handwringing in this thread about how this is absolutely not possibly related to the event going on that night I was thinking about how no one ever gets shot during the arts festival AFAIK
So . . . Are you, like, for hockey and against basketball or whut?
(just kidding)
I say export the punk doing the shooting to Singapore for special care and to save taxpayers dollars.
(but only if he is guilty as confessed.)
Bostonfan 05-24-2012, 07:47 AM Why do people think it's up to the city to give out free entertainment? Whatever happened to buying a ticket for a game. If you're not able to buy a ticket, go to a local establishment and watch it. Or how about staying at home and inviting friends over to cook out and watch the game. It amazes me how people think they are owed things such as watching a game for free on a big screen outside an arena.
Next people will be wanting Harkins to show free movies outside their theater,and concerts will want to be shown on a big screen outside the arena, all for free of course.
Roadhawg 05-24-2012, 08:05 AM Let TNT and ESPN show some scenes on TV and you might start getting the same kind of turn out. This is probably why they use stock film of the skyline and canal, otherwise certain types would be stalking the camerman trying to get on TV.
Who are the "certain types" you're referring to?
Why do people think it's up to the city to give out free entertainment?
There is no such expectation... Something was commenced and was wildly popular and is now being taken away.
It's not like before this was established people were standing outside demanding free entertainment.
It was a very cool and unique thing for the city and it's now being discontinued; that's simply very disappointing.
Roadhawg 05-24-2012, 08:09 AM Why do people think it's up to the city to give out free entertainment? Whatever happened to buying a ticket for a game. If you're not able to buy a ticket, go to a local establishment and watch it. Or how about staying at home and inviting friends over to cook out and watch the game. It amazes me how people think they are owed things such as watching a game for free on a big screen outside an arena.
Next people will be wanting Harkins to show free movies outside their theater,and concerts will want to be shown on a big screen outside the arena, all for free of course.
How much have taxpayers given for the arena and in tax breaks for the Thunder to move to OKC? As somebody said earlier does OKC cancel the 4th of July fireworks too? How about the Halloween parade? My point is why does the city have to turn belly up and raise the white flag because of a couple punks and lack of planning on the cities part.
mmonroe 05-24-2012, 08:57 AM what if there was a shooting at the Arts Festival... would we discontinue the AF?
OPINIONATED 05-24-2012, 09:10 AM I think a lot of people here are missing the scope of what happened. A gunman fired into a crown of people wounding eight of them and that is a huge problem. We have gang members doing drive by shootings all over this city. It is a gang problem we have in Oklahoma City. As small as Oklahoma City is you would think that they could end this gang violence but we rank right up there with cities that have ten times the population as Oklahoma City. In most big cities these gangsters stay in certain parts of the city. In Oklahoma City you see them everywhere you go. The size of our police department doesn't fit the size of our gang problem.
BoulderSooner 05-24-2012, 09:26 AM I think a lot of people here are missing the scope of what happened. A gunman fired into a crown of people wounding eight of them and that is a huge problem. We have gang members doing drive by shootings all over this city. It is a gang problem we have in Oklahoma City. As small as Oklahoma City is you would think that they could end this gang violence but we rank right up there with cities that have ten times the population as Oklahoma City. In most big cities these gangsters stay in certain parts of the city. In Oklahoma City you see them everywhere you go. The size of our police department doesn't fit the size of our gang problem.
wow ... not close to the truth .. but still wow
Bostonfan 05-24-2012, 09:40 AM There is no such expectation... Something was commenced and was wildly popular and is now being taken away.
It's not like before this was established people were standing outside demanding free entertainment.
It was a very cool and unique thing for the city and it's now being discontinued; that's simply very disappointing.
maybe at first people were not demanding free entertainment, but that is sure what is happening now.
Bostonfan 05-24-2012, 09:42 AM How much have taxpayers given for the arena and in tax breaks for the Thunder to move to OKC? As somebody said earlier does OKC cancel the 4th of July fireworks too? How about the Halloween parade? My point is why does the city have to turn belly up and raise the white flag because of a couple punks and lack of planning on the cities part.
Really? Paying taxes gives us the right to demand a big screen in front of the arena for our viewing pleasure? Come on man.
Urbanized 05-24-2012, 09:44 AM Nm
OPINIONATED 05-24-2012, 09:44 AM wow ... not close to the truth .. but still wow
I lived in the Denver area for about 19 years and the only time I saw a gangster was when I had business to do in the Aurora Area. On the west side of Denver they profiled people who appeared to be out of place so you didn't see many out of place people in our area and when you did they were usually talking to a police officer. Here in Oklahoma City these gangsters are almost everywhere and don't seem to be out of place at all.
Bostonfan 05-24-2012, 09:45 AM what if there was a shooting at the Arts Festival... would we discontinue the AF?
yes, if there were days left of the AF and there was a shooting, no doubt the rest of it would've been discontinued. Then looked at for the following year.
But really, do you think the AF crowd is remotely similar to the crowd at TA and Bricktown?
BoulderSooner 05-24-2012, 09:49 AM Of course not. But if the arts festival started attracting large crowds of unaccompanied juveniles, gangbangers and thugs and THEN had a shooting, you can bet that they would immediately work to eliminate whichever elements were attractive to that group. That is one of the reasons, I am sure, that the Arts Festival is never open past 9 PM, although I'm sure many - myself included - are always disappointed when there at closing time. It always seems like 8:30-9:00 is the time when it really gets fun.
Not that the Arts Festival itself is an event that appeals much to that group, but a large crowd, free unrestricted entry and girl-watching certainly ARE. That is what attracted these guys to TA.
By the way, everyone is acting like the game broadcasts have been going on outside the building forever, and that the team is taking away a longstanding event. The pre-game Thunder Alley events HAVE been going on since day one - kids games, free music, Thunder Drummers - but the broadcast is new to this season, and if I'm not mistaken didn't even happen until LATE this season. I think this is just a case where word spread like wildfire that you could be part of the scene, watch the game for free if you wanted, check out members of the opposite sex parading and strutting around, drink a beer out of your own cooler, and where the police were WAY outnumbered. What's not to like about that if you are a wayward kid?
the games were broadcast outside the arena last year in the playoffs as well .. although clearly not on the building screen ..
jn1780 05-24-2012, 10:04 AM Why do people think it's up to the city to give out free entertainment? Whatever happened to buying a ticket for a game. If you're not able to buy a ticket, go to a local establishment and watch it. Or how about staying at home and inviting friends over to cook out and watch the game. It amazes me how people think they are owed things such as watching a game for free on a big screen outside an arena.
Next people will be wanting Harkins to show free movies outside their theater,and concerts will want to be shown on a big screen outside the arena, all for free of course.
This part is just silly. I bet if you took a survey of people at Thunder Alley most would say they have easy access to the game and are probably able to hear and pay attention to the game at these locations. They go to Thunder Alley because of the atmosphere. An atmosphere the city can't handle apparently.
maybe at first people were not demanding free entertainment, but that is sure what is happening now.
I think most people are annoyed about how we appear to other cities due to our city leaders response to a problem.
Jim Kyle 05-24-2012, 10:27 AM what if there was a shooting at the Arts Festival... would we discontinue the AF?Yes, in the middle of the week without waiting for it to finish!
Did I miss the memo about repeal of the 11 p.m. curfew for Bricktown, or is it just not being enforced any more due to Political Correctness?
soonermike81 05-24-2012, 10:40 AM I lived in the Denver area for about 19 years and the only time I saw a gangster was when I had business to do in the Aurora Area. On the west side of Denver they profiled people who appeared to be out of place so you didn't see many out of place people in our area and when you did they were usually talking to a police officer. Here in Oklahoma City these gangsters are almost everywhere and don't seem to be out of place at all.
What makes a person a "gangster?" I don't live in OKC anymore, but come back quite often to visit the family. I can't remember the last time I saw an actual person that I could identify as a gang member. What characteristics are you using to be able to identify these "gangsters."
Roadhawg 05-24-2012, 10:59 AM What makes a person a "gangster?" I don't live in OKC anymore, but come back quite often to visit the family. I can't remember the last time I saw an actual person that I could identify as a gang member. What characteristics are you using to be able to identify these "gangsters."
Listening to a few on here just being Black qualifies you as a gangster.
What makes a person a "gangster?" I don't live in OKC anymore, but come back quite often to visit the family. I can't remember the last time I saw an actual person that I could identify as a gang member. What characteristics are you using to be able to identify these "gangsters."
Probably a group of people wearing a common color, i.e. one person has a green hat, another has a green shirt, one may have a green bandana and another may have green shoes. Not sure if that's how he would recognize a gangster but as Roadhawg said almost any black person walking the street is a gangster in the eyes of pretty much everyone.
Achilleslastand 05-24-2012, 11:17 AM What makes a person a "gangster?" I don't live in OKC anymore, but come back quite often to visit the family. I can't remember the last time I saw an actual person that I could identify as a gang member. What characteristics are you using to be able to identify these "gangsters."
Pants down below your rear end,horrible music blaring from your car stereo filled with profanity,baseball cap on sideways and the horrid unintelligable attempts at the english language as well as showing no repspect for themselves/others is a good starting point although not a 100% foolproof method.
Hopefully, not a repost, but a very illuminating article:
http://newsok.com/thunder-alley-watch-party-off-permit-process-to-change/article/3678115
Between bricktown's indifference to its problems and the city's total lack of oversight, we are lucky this hasn't happened before.
although not a 100% foolproof method.
You think? If we could identify killers by fashion, grammar, and taste in music, police work would be a breeze.
soonermike81 05-24-2012, 12:02 PM Pants down below your rear end,horrible music blaring from your car stereo filled with profanity,baseball cap on sideways and the horrid unintelligable attempts at the english language as well as showing no repspect for themselves/others is a good starting point although not a 100% foolproof method.
Wow, really!? So are we talking about all music with profanity or just rap music.
When I was in high school (predominantly white) in the 90s, there were probably a hundred kids that fit every single one of those categories. And I am almost certain not a single one of them was a gang member. Should the police have arrested/harassed these kids that may have looked "out of place?"
Urbanized 05-24-2012, 12:02 PM ...I think this is just a case where word spread like wildfire that you could be part of the scene, watch the game for free if you wanted, check out members of the opposite sex parading and strutting around, drink a beer out of your own cooler, and where the police were WAY outnumbered. What's not to like about that if you are a wayward kid?
Feels funny to quote myself, but I just wanted to point out that this is exactly the problem that appeared in Bricktown a number of years ago and still exists a bit (in a much more controlled manner) late nights on Fridays and especially Saturdays. The difference is that Bricktown at that time responded aggressively by working with the City Council to enact a curfew for minors, AND worked with the police department and council to put into place a program called Bricktown overtime to take the number of officers up to what now is a massive overwhelming display of law enforcement during those times (late night weekends).
That still doesn't exactly run everyone off, because the district is a giant place with lots of unrestricted and free parking. I have mentioned for a long, long time to anyone who would listen (they don't) that late night free & unrestricted parking is a problem. Nobody really wants to hear that, because Bricktown has taken such a publicity hit over the years over paid parking. The big swaths of free parking counteracts that perception, at least to a degree. Also, tenants of Lower Bricktown pay the developer a premium so their patrons can park for free, and like to position that area as an alternative to Bricktown proper. The problem is that it allows - again - unintended consequences which spill into the rest of the district, late on weekend evenings.
The area has the same appeal as a shopping mall, that is free parking, unrestricted entry, and lots of people watching, including attractive, dressed up members of the opposite gender. These same types of groups have ruined many a mall in the past. That was the situation created in this case by Thunder Alley, unfortunately.
Regarding some of the assertions on here that Bricktown is always full of unruly minors and gangbangers, or full of people wearing Affliction tees, or hoochies, or whatever, it betrays a total lack of experience with Bricktown beyond a 2-3 hour window two nights a week, a few weeks a year. That is usually followed up by a statement that confirms this, such as "I never go to Bricktown..."
There idea that Bricktown "scapegoated" Thunder Alley on this issue is silly, in light of the fact that:
BEFORE the incident happened, a number of people complained (including on here) that the event had become overwhelming and a bit scary
THE SHOOTER HIMSELF and the lawyer for the friend that attended with him have openly admitted they were there specifically to attend TA
People reported fights and other altercations AT Thunder Alley
The team changed the nature of the event in response. Do you think the group of owners who fought a tough and uncompromising battle to bring that team here would have rolled over so easy if they believed the event was totally righteous here? Of course not. They understood and admitted through their actions that the event itself had become an attractive nuisance and somewhat problematic. That's not a bad reflection on them or on what had up until recently been an amazing event; it just was a victim of its own success. There might have been other or even better ways to change it, but they were absolutely right in taking limiting action after the shooting.
Bricktown's contribution to the problem, in my opinion, was providing an uncontrolled area for those people to park. If you go back and read my first post on the subject, before any arrests were made, my speculation as to what happened was 100% correct; they were there to attend Thunder Alley and the altercation(s) happened in the walk to their parking spot in Lower Bricktown. This was not a case of someone that was hanging out in the district, at least on this night.
soonerguru 05-24-2012, 12:26 PM I think a lot of people here are missing the scope of what happened. A gunman fired into a crown of people wounding eight of them and that is a huge problem. We have gang members doing drive by shootings all over this city. It is a gang problem we have in Oklahoma City. As small as Oklahoma City is you would think that they could end this gang violence but we rank right up there with cities that have ten times the population as Oklahoma City. In most big cities these gangsters stay in certain parts of the city. In Oklahoma City you see them everywhere you go. The size of our police department doesn't fit the size of our gang problem.
Wow. I drive all over OKC and I rarely see "gangbangers." Most of the gang-related activity occurs in Southwest OKC, which is also where most of the homicides take place.
Yes, we have gangs, particularly in Southwest OKC, but compared to the 90s our gang 'problem' in the northern side of the city is virtually nonexistent. Perhaps this is due to the fact the police did a good job policing.
I do remember in the 90s when I would see people wearing colors everywhere, and when a simple trip to 7-11 could be somewhat hair raising. IT's not like that now -- at all.
Urbanized 05-24-2012, 12:31 PM Hopefully, not a repost, but a very illuminating article:
http://newsok.com/thunder-alley-watch-party-off-permit-process-to-change/article/3678115
Between bricktown's indifference to its problems and the city's total lack of oversight, we are lucky this hasn't happened before.
Bricktown's indifference based on what exactly? I can tell you without question this issue has been talked about non-stop down here since it happened. Everyone realizes that even if the problem didn't begin in Bricktown, it culminated here and the district's name has been mentioned connected to a very negative incident. Not to mention many people outside of the regular downtown crowd closely connect Bricktown and Thunder games, with good cause to do so. This can indeed have a negative impact on businesses here, and I guarantee you people are paying close attention.
Problems like this DID appear in Bricktown years ago, and the district reacted swiftly and decisively at the time. They worked closely with the police and City Council, got the City to agree to a curfew AND to provide overtime officers on Friday and Saturday nights (when incidents like this were happening). Additionally, many of the property owners and merchants hired and continue to employ off-duty uniformed police officers at their doorstep.
If you haven't been to Bricktown late on a Friday or Saturday evening in the past few years you would be shocked by the show force by police. The same holds true on the 4th of July and other events where such activity has in the past reared its ugly head. But until now, those are the only nights in which it has happened. Even after 5 years of NBA hoop, there had been no indication of crowds & criminal activity until, really, the LA Lakers series this year. Usually the activity around the game had consisted nearly exclusively of the people who go to the games (a nice, family-oriented crowd) and the people who WERE attending Thunder Alley (mostly the same folks). I think the only failing was that most people who could do something about it didn't recognize how quickly it spun out of control over the past few games.
soonerguru 05-24-2012, 12:45 PM To continue what Pete has been saying about allowing the "downtown is dangerous" meme to take hold, it's disheartening to read the comments section of NewsOK. First of all, the multitude of outright racist comments are embarrassing. Secondly, I've seen numerous people describe downtown as "in the middle of the ghetto." What a joke. I've lived in downtown off and on for more than a decade (don't now) and that is a ridiculous statement.
Perhaps people in OKC don't know what a real ghetto is. "Working class neighborhood" or "neighborhood with ethnic and socioeconomic diversity" do not equal "ghetto."
A lot of people talk about Northeast OKC as a ghetto, perhaps because it's working class and predominantly black, but the homicide rate in that part of town has declined dramatically over the last decade.
I guess you could say Southwest OKC is a ghetto, as it's our poorest and most crime-riddled area, but it does not border downtown and is separated by a major interstate highway and a river.
Sadly, so many low-information readers may start to buy this hyperbole that downtown OKC is in a ghetto as fact, when it's clearly not.
It would have been so cool if the city leaders had responded to this by saying: "What happened Monday was a disturbing tragedy, and we feel for the victims and will punish the perpetrators. But let it be known: This is our city, this is our downtown, and this is our basketball team, and we're not going to let the unruly actions of a few punish the good citizens of this city. We will keep Thunder Alley open and we will make sure it is a safe environment to continue to enjoy the success of our magnificent basketball team! Join us next week as we take on the San Antonio Spurs!"
But alas, a great opportunity was lost to not only affirm the safety of downtown and Bricktown, but to rise to the occasion as a city proud of its accomplishments, undeterred by a tragic event.
Just the facts 05-24-2012, 12:51 PM Why do people think it's up to the city to give out free entertainment? Whatever happened to buying a ticket for a game. If you're not able to buy a ticket, go to a local establishment and watch it. Or how about staying at home and inviting friends over to cook out and watch the game. It amazes me how people think they are owed things such as watching a game for free on a big screen outside an arena.
Next people will be wanting Harkins to show free movies outside their theater,and concerts will want to be shown on a big screen outside the arena, all for free of course.
Handouts are contagious Bostonfan - just look at the people in this thread that are pissed their free sidewalk viewing is gone.
soonerguru 05-24-2012, 12:54 PM Handouts are contagious Bostonfan - just look at the people in this thread that are pissed their free sidewalk viewing is gone.
What a jerky comment to make. Every one of those in attendance to soak up the atmosphere and watch the game on the big TV pay sales taxes to this city, which has funded the building of that arena, the rebuilding of that arena, and the re-rebuilding of that arena. Perhaps you missed all of the great PR our city got for Thunder Alley. Your "welfare freeloaders suck" rants are getting tiresome.
Just the facts 05-24-2012, 12:55 PM Reading these comments I can't help but think of the poor mayor in Jaws. He told Chief Brody (who wanted to close the beach), "Do what you have to keep the beaches safe, but those beaches will be open". Then the shark came and ate everyone because they didn't solve their problem, they tried to work around it.
Just the facts 05-24-2012, 12:57 PM What a jerky comment to make. Every one of those in attendance to soak up the atmosphere and watch the game on the big TV pay sales taxes to this city, which has funded the building of that arena, the rebuilding of that arena, and the re-rebuilding of that arena. Perhaps you missed all of the great PR our city got for Thunder Alley. Your "welfare freeloaders suck" rants are getting tiresome.
Well, not everyone. At least one was there to cause problems. As for Thunder Alley - I saw it, it looked great. Then I turn on the TV the next morning and the story is 8 people shot. I am all for public gathering places, but there are things the police need to have the freedom to deal with.
just look at the people in this thread that are pissed their free sidewalk viewing is gone.
Absurd.
The game is broadcast for free and can be watched anywhere. It's a matter of people wanting to come together as a community and for the atmosphere.
Yes, there were some troublemakers but portraying those that want to keep it as all looking for some kind of hand-out is ridiculous.
Just the facts 05-24-2012, 01:15 PM It comes down to this: can the City provide a safe environment for 30,000 people where a sizable portion of them have been drinking and is the risk to personal safety, property safety, and the cities international reputation worth the chance that they can't keep it safe. My guess is the City looked at that and said - the risk is too high and we can't take that chance. Very little up-side and lot of downside. I wish it wasn't so but that is the society we have crafted for ourselves.
soonerguru 05-24-2012, 01:23 PM It comes down to this: can the City provide a safe environment for 30,000 people where a sizable portion of them have been drinking and is the risk to personal safety, property safety, and the cities international reputation worth the chance that they can't keep it safe. My guess is the City looked at that and said - the risk is too high and we can't take that chance. Very little up-side and lot of downside. I wish it wasn't so but that is the society we have crafted for ourselves.
I don't entirely disagree with this. But if we're to become a big city we're going to need to learn how to handle large gatherings. We already have them on New Year's Eve, July 4, etc. I don't discount the sense of liability. I also think you would agree that if given the choice, the chief of police would rather not have to deal with any large public gatherings. But that's not really an option.
Even before OKC's urban renaissance, we've had the State Fair, Arts Fest, free concerts, and other very large public gatherings. We've been able to handle them.
Other cities like NYC deal with stuff like this all the time -- usually without incident. We won't be able to provide a 100% crime-proof environment. To do so would require no public events of any kind and people at home with their guns and the doors locked in the 'burbs, never venturing out into public. Not something we want. We should aspire to being able to handle crowd control and affirming to the public that downtown is safe -- even when there are large gatherings of people. Otherwise, this major investment we've made to make our city life more vibrant and active was a total waste. I for one will be disappointed if only people that work at places like Devon Energy are allowed to enjoy our downtown environment.
Roadhawg 05-24-2012, 01:30 PM You think? If we could identify killers by fashion, grammar, and taste in music, police work would be a breeze.
He was just using code for Black.
Drake 05-24-2012, 01:32 PM I lived in the Denver area for about 19 years and the only time I saw a gangster was when I had business to do in the Aurora Area. On the west side of Denver they profiled people who appeared to be out of place so you didn't see many out of place people in our area and when you did they were usually talking to a police officer. Here in Oklahoma City these gangsters are almost everywhere and don't seem to be out of place at all.
I'm sorry but that's crap. As someone who is in their car and in residential neighborhoods and around all parts of the city almost daily, I can assure you this is not the case
Double Edge 05-24-2012, 01:37 PM Two thoughts. Without looking, I'm guessing OKC has an anti-assembly-of-more-than-a-few-people-without-a-permit law on the books. That's typically the kind of laws used by municipalities to kill and/or control political protests too. If so, that law has been being overlooked on this event up until now. If that's not the case, I wonder what authority they will act on other than to ask the Thunder to unplug the TV. If it is the case, the special treatment up to this point is noted.
Second. Is our city trained and fully prepared to quell sports riots that may occur should the Thunder keep on winning? (Probably more likely had they not taken a really strong approach towards the current situation, of outside the arena crowd control. This might be preemptive on there part perhaps, but I don't know how they think.)
Bricktown's indifference based on what exactly?
Despite this:
http://newsok.com/article/3677957/
Their response is this:
The incident that occurred following the Thunder game on May 21 is not a reflection on the safety and security of the downtown or Bricktown areas, but rather an isolated event, and just happened to occur in Bricktown as the Thunder game let out and crowds were walking toward the parking area in lower Bricktown.
Despite having a history of violence, Bricktown is saying this is a totally isolated event and are more or less washing their hands of it. Yet, it's the organizers of Thunder Alley that have been asked to change their ways and have been much more proactive in seeking and making changes. Yes, these people may have been downtown with the intention of going to thunder alley, but it didn't happen in Thunder Alley. It happen in their district, but the director of the Bricktown Association just went, "it's a shame, but it's not our problem". That does not bode well for the future of bricktown.
Just the facts 05-24-2012, 01:39 PM I don't entirely disagree with this. But if we're to become a big city we're going to need to learn how to handle large gatherings. We already have them on New Year's Eve, July 4, etc. I don't discount the sense of liability. I also think you would agree that if given the choice, the chief of police would rather not have to deal with any large public gatherings. But that's not really an option.
Even before OKC's urban renaissance, we've had the State Fair, Arts Fest, free concerts, and other very large public gatherings. We've been able to handle them.
Other cities like NYC deal with stuff like this all the time -- usually without incident. We won't be able to provide a 100% crime-proof environment. To do so would require no public events of any kind and people at home with their guns and the doors locked in the 'burbs, never venturing out into public. Not something we want. We should aspire to being able to handle crowd control and affirming to the public that downtown is safe -- even when there are large gatherings of people. Otherwise, this major investment we've made to make our city life more vibrant and active was a total waste. I for one will be disappointed if only people that work at places like Devon Energy are allowed to enjoy our downtown environment.
I hear what you are saying Soonerguru but ESPN isn't hanging out in the State Fair arena parking lot. However, let 8 people get shot as the State Fair closes and see what happens. I think people are losing sight of 8 (eight) people getting shot. To quote Biden, that is a big [beep] deal. When a camera shows up some people go bananas.
Thunder Alley isn't just the jumbotron tuned to a live broadcast, they actually close down that section of Reno, have all types of activities and food vendors, etc. All of that is done through a permitting process and paid for by the Thunder. I'm sure they pay for additional security and other things.
So, I think the City is now dictating when they can and can't do under those permits.
As for as what may lie ahead for future Thunder wins, especially if we get to the finals... I'm sure there will be some hotspots that will need to be managed.
If we win it all, they really need to have police on alert in the Bricktown area and near the arena.
And if there is a victory parade, that will likely be done during the day and again, they'll have to do lots of pre-planning.
soonerguru 05-24-2012, 01:44 PM I hear what you are saying Soonerguru but ESPN isn't hanging out in the State Fair arena parking lot. However, let 8 people get shot as the State Fair closes and see what happens. I think people are losing sight of 8 (eight) people getting shot. To quote Biden, that is a big [beep] deal. When a camera shows up some people go bananas.
I agree that it's a big bleeping deal. It needs to be dealt with. It's a tragedy, as I've pointed out repeatedly. Unfortunately, for liability concerns or simple emotional response, we're not taking on the problem like a big-boy city does. We're punting, sending the message to the wider public that large gatherings downtown are inherently dangerous and beyond our control.
adaniel 05-24-2012, 01:47 PM Here is an interesting read from Berry Tramel's blog from a police officer's point of view:
http://blog.newsok.com/berrytramel/2012/05/24/oklahoma-city-thunder-cop-weighs-in-on-thunder-alley/
Double Edge 05-24-2012, 01:58 PM Here is an interesting read from Berry Tramel's blog from a police officer's point of view:
http://blog.newsok.com/berrytramel/2012/05/24/oklahoma-city-thunder-cop-weighs-in-on-thunder-alley/
That is about what I expected is the case. We have new(ish) problems not addressed by old budgets. Seems like some of that Thunder generated city revenue came with a price tag that's been ignored or overlooked.
I have serious doubts they have the planning, manpower and training to deal with riots either.
soonerguru 05-24-2012, 01:59 PM The letter to Tramel from the police officer was well written and thoughtful. I am very Pro-MAPS, and I was a huge supporter of MAPS 3, but I do sympathize with the opponents, a lot of them police union members, who have said we need to increase our police presence. Monday's shooting does not inform my view, but the fact that our city IS growing (largely due to MAPS), dictates that our officer ranks need to grow as well. Hopefully this will be addressed soon.
I understand we probably need more police but how their current staffing levels impacted this situation has not been established.
All that article says is that a police officer thinks we need more cops; hardly a new perspective.
But it also says 10% of the force was on the job that night. It doesn't say the city couldn't afford to put more down there or was somehow limited due to the number currently employed.
We could have 3,000 cops on the payroll but if only 100 or so are down there, what difference would it make?
I've yet to hear anyone explain why there were not more police around and why they weren't in the immediate area when those people were shot.
This could still very much be a situation resolved by better planning and placement.
SOONER8693 05-24-2012, 02:15 PM He was just using code for Black.
Some people continually wanting to play the race card and be confrontational for the sake of the race argument need to move on to a new topic. Get past the race thing. Is it still with us, yes. But, maybe we as a people could move past it quicker if a segment of the population that want to lay that out there pertaining to every damn thing that happens, would not.
BoulderSooner 05-24-2012, 02:17 PM I understand we probably need more police but how their current staffing levels impacted this situation has not been established.
All that article says is that a police officer thinks we need more cops; hardly a new perspective.
But it also says 10% of the force was on the job that night. It doesn't say the city couldn't afford to put more down there or was somehow limited due to the number currently employed.
We could have 3,000 cops on the payroll but if only 100 or so are down there, what difference would it make?
I've yet to hear anyone explain why there were not more police around and why they weren't in the immediate area when those people were shot.
This could still very much be a situation resolved by better planning and placement.
this times 1000%
adaniel 05-24-2012, 02:18 PM ^^
To direct 10% of your police force away from other parts of the city is significant. Its not like crime breaks for the Thunder games.
You also have to realize that police generally work in three shifts, so there's probably 360ish officers on duty at one point. 100 of 360 cops is even more significant.
I hate that Thunder Alley is closed, but I'm sympathetic to the reasoning that this city, like others, has finite resources. Would you rather have to pay overtime for extra police to secure Thunder Alley over several games or get the huge pothole in your street fixed? It then becomes a question of priorities.
BoulderSooner 05-24-2012, 02:19 PM The letter to Tramel from the police officer was well written and thoughtful. I am very Pro-MAPS, and I was a huge supporter of MAPS 3, but I do sympathize with the opponents, a lot of them police union members, who have said we need to increase our police presence. Monday's shooting does not inform my view, but the fact that our city IS growing (largely due to MAPS), dictates that our officer ranks need to grow as well. Hopefully this will be addressed soon.
maps vote and police/fire staffing levels have nothing to do with one another ... have you ever heard a police union member in any city say we need less officers?? ...
SOONER8693 05-24-2012, 02:20 PM I understand we probably need more police but how their current staffing levels impacted this situation has not been established.
All that article says is that a police officer thinks we need more cops; hardly a new perspective.
But it also says 10% of the force was on the job that night. It doesn't say the city couldn't afford to put more down there or was somehow limited due to the number currently employed.
We could have 3,000 cops on the payroll but if only 100 or so are down there, what difference would it make?
I've yet to hear anyone explain why there were not more police around and why they weren't in the immediate area when those people were shot.
This could still very much be a situation resolved by better planning and placement.
Well, I have been told by a long time member of the OKCPD, that the Bricktown association does not want a large police presence in B-town. And, what police are there, they, B-town association want them to be "good will ambassadors". The B-town is afraid that a large police show in B-town will give people the idea the area is not family friendly and scare folks away.
Just the facts 05-24-2012, 02:20 PM I agree that it's a big bleeping deal. It needs to be dealt with. It's a tragedy, as I've pointed out repeatedly. Unfortunately, for liability concerns or simple emotional response, we're not taking on the problem like a big-boy city does. We're punting, sending the message to the wider public that large gatherings downtown are inherently dangerous and beyond our control.
How do you suggest we take on the problem? It isn't like the Arena is in a remote area where people walk back to the cars and drive away. The whole original point was to creat an environment where people would spend hours before and after the game. It is easy to handle 30,000 people for 30 minutes while each tries to get to their destination. It is much harded to keep 30,000 people in line for 6 hours when they are all at their destination.
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