In the end, potential is not reality--it's potential. While cool things could have come of the bus station, some very wealthy people paid a lot of money for the property, have gone through the expense of making a reasonable plan of what to do with that land, and guided that plan through all the proper legal channels. I am honestly for preservation more than this post might seem, but once you start having bulldozer claws pushing through brick walls, it's time to live in the world of what is.

A nation of, by, and for the rich and powerful? We didn't need to see this to remind us - it's just another in the never ending reality.
I'm not ready to live in a world of "what is." I want to live in a world of "what we might be."
At 56, I may not see it...but I hope my children or their kids do.
A world where everything isn't determined by the size of your (or someone else's) bank account.

I'm with you, zookeeper! I'm just talking about where we are regarding this specific building. I want to live in the world of what might be where what might be is still possible. Where what might be is no longer possible, what could have been is a distraction from what still holds possibility.


A nation of, by, and for the rich and powerful? We didn't need to see this to remind us - it's just another in the never ending reality.
I'm not ready to live in a world of "what is." I want to live in a world of "what we might be."
At 56, I may not see it...but I hope my children or their kids do.
A world where everything isn't determined by the size of your (or someone else's) bank account.

In other words, I want to live squarely in the world of what can be, but I'm not going to waste my life in the world of what could have been.

We were also wondering about the sign. It seems like they would've taken it down before starting demolition. Guess we'll find out pretty soon.

"Whoops! You wanted to keep the sign too? Shucks, sorry about that."

A nation of, by, and for the rich and powerful? We didn't need to see this to remind us - it's just another in the never ending reality.
I'm not ready to live in a world of "what is." I want to live in a world of "what we might be."
At 56, I may not see it...but I hope my children or their kids do.
A world where everything isn't determined by the size of your (or someone else's) bank account.

When in Oklahoma less than10% of the eligible voters actually do make their voice heard at the ballot box, let alone doing the hard work before the vote is even taken, we deserve what is imposed on us by those with money, power and political oomph. It is even worse in local elections. Who does everyone think is going to make the rules when the citizens take a pass? We elect lame legislators, lame councilpersons, etc. and then complain what a lousy job they do and how things don't change. We play victim because it is easier. For the dozen on this board who actively participate in civic governance, great. For the 1.4 million others in the OKC area that don't...shame on you. Don't blame the rich...blame your neighbor. Blame yourself, if applicable.

A nation of, by, and for the rich and powerful? We didn't need to see this to remind us - it's just another in the never ending reality.
I'm not ready to live in a world of "what is." I want to live in a world of "what we might be."
At 56, I may not see it...but I hope my children or their kids do.
A world where everything isn't determined by the size of your (or someone else's) bank account.

At 45 I decided I don't want to spend what years I have left fighting a battle I can't win. I'm too old to take comfort in moral victories. If the powers that be want parking garages, 6 lane expressways, and bicycle-free streets then who am I to stand in their way, when there are so many places I can live that are already built the way I like.

In 4 years I plan to move to London. It might also be run by the rich, but at least I can walk around to things.

At 45 I decided I don't want to spend what years fighting a battle I can't win. I'm too old to take comfort in moral victories. If the powers that be want parking garages, 6 lane expressways, and bicycle-free streets then who am I to stand in their way, when there are so many places I can live that are already built the way I like.

In 4 years I plan to move to London. It might also be run by the rich, but at least I can walk around to things.
Buh-bye. Don't think you will be missed.

When in Oklahoma less than10% of the eligible voters actually do make their voice heard at the ballot box, let alone doing the hard work before the vote is even taken, we deserve what is imposed on us by those with money, power and political oomph. It is even worse in local elections. Who does everyone think is going to make the rules when the citizens take a pass? We elect lame legislators, lame councilpersons, etc. and then complain what a lousy job they do and how things don't change. We play victim because it is easier. For the dozen on this board who actively participate in civic governance, great. For the 1.4 million others in the OKC area that don't...shame on you. Don't blame the rich...blame your neighbor. Blame yourself, if applicable.

Hear, Hear!!. . .and Amen!!

Buh-bye. Don't think you will be missed.

He and his perspective will definitely be missed. The (seemingly) Oklahoma mantra of "if you don't like it, leave" really holds us back and prevents striving for better IMO. The lack of optimism is frustrating, but don't get on his case for wanting a better city for the people level.

He and his perspective will definitely be missed. The (seemingly) Oklahoma mantra of "if you don't like it, leave" really holds us back and prevents striving for better IMO. The lack of optimism is frustrating, but don't get on his case for wanting a better city for the people level.

*Like*

He and his perspective will definitely be missed. The (seemingly) Oklahoma mantra of "if you don't like it, leave" really holds us back and prevents striving for better IMO. The lack of optimism is frustrating, but don't get on his case for wanting a better city for the people level.

I think that mantra is generally used for people like BChris that constantly bitch about how terrible Oklahoma is, complain about living here, shout from the rooftops about how much they want to leave and how much better every other city is...and don't offer an solutions or attempt to help to change all of their complaints. I think that mantra is perfectly fine for those people as they hold us back as much as anyone. Definitely not the case for Kerry though.

Though I think the "all is lost" attitude some have taken with this development does a disservice to how far the city has progressed in becoming more urban, especially considering that this garage will contain street level retail all around it. Obviously the original buildings would've been better but if this was being built on an empty block I think most people would be reasonably ok with it. The bike lane deal is annoying though, hopefully we can find a way to keep that around.

He and his perspective will definitely be missed. The (seemingly) Oklahoma mantra of "if you don't like it, leave" really holds us back and prevents striving for better IMO. The lack of optimism is frustrating, but don't get on his case for wanting a better city for the people level.

I agree. Wish there had been a way to 'like'.

A nation of, by, and for the rich and powerful? We didn't need to see this to remind us - it's just another in the never ending reality.
I'm not ready to live in a world of "what is." I want to live in a world of "what we might be."
At 56, I may not see it...but I hope my children or their kids do.
A world where everything isn't determined by the size of your (or someone else's) bank account.

Sorry Zoo, whether we like it or not it's been this way for thousands of years.

Buh-bye. Don't think you will be missed.

Howard Kunstler warned that when we created enough places not worth caring about we would create a country not worth caring about. The beauty of not caring anymore is..... well, not caring.

The irony is I am exactly the target demographic the City and downtown companies say they want to attract. Well guess what, this isn't how you do it. In fact, it is producing the exact opposite effect.

Yea, people will still move downtown, but those will increasingly be people with strong ties to OKC. People like me with options will just pick a better option. I could choose to live here perminately and vote in every election and fight every battle, or..... I can just vote with my feet. I opted to vote with my feet and go where my prefered lifestyle is already the norm.

Anyhow, I'm not moving tomorrow but that is the path I am now on.

There is something to be said for growing pains, but there is also something to be said for those who have the most wealth and power learning to do what's best for others because it ultimately ends up being the best thing for themselves. Enforcing your vision on the world you live in rarely has good results.

The reason this project is so hard to get over is that this lies more in the latter than the former. Same thing with just about every big-ticket project in the city. Yes, we have some great developers throwing down fantastic $10M - $50M projects. The problem is all of these $150M+ projects (C.C., OGE, 499 etc.) have massive holes and are failing to really make the contributions to the city's development that OKC needs to really become the special city we all know it can be. And these big project frustrations all tie back to a singular issue that we have no real power to correct: There is a lack of quality city planning at the very top of the ladder.

That's not to say that every $150M+ project is terrible either: on a scale of 1-10, none of these projects rate even as low as a 2 or 3…but none of them really rate much higher than a 7. We've gotta get some 9s and 10s out there if we really want to move forward as a city.

[/B]

Sorry Zoo, whether we like it or not it's been this way for thousands of years.

He who has the gold, makes the rules.

When was the last time gold was the currency? It always been like this, and there isn't an argument anyone can offer to convince me it'll change. Only seeing will be believing. That being said I don't really get down about it like others.

Buh-bye. Don't think you will be missed.

This attitude, which is quite common in Oklahoma, is one of the reasons why people leave.

Instead of trying to understand or learn more about someone's way of life, Oklahoma tells them to bug off and live somewhere else.

I will agree with everyone that thinks Kerry can be a little over the top and absolute in his forum postings.

However, one thing is for certain, he is consistent in his beliefs and he is not afraid to voice his opinion. I have met him in person, and I think that carries over. He is very consistent.

Someone who is consistent, wants to be involved, and will voice opinion is someone you want to keep around, not push away.

I wish more Oklahomans were open to creating a more diverse environment, and enthusiastic toward fostering idea growth and discussion. Your post is an unfortunate caricature of the stubbornness of Oklahoma which is permanently driving away and repelling many intelligent people.

That's not to say that every $150M+ project is terrible either: on a scale of 1-10, none of these projects rate even as low as a 2 or 3…but none of them really rate much higher than a 7. We've gotta get some 9s and 10s out there if we really want to move forward as a city.

The problem I have is that this project isn't a 2 or 3, it is a -3 or -4 for me. Skywalks, parking garages fronting all 4 adjacent streets (including at 2 intersections), large building setback, lackluster architecture, very little retail space, no sidewalk interaction, bike lane removal, increase traffic, etc are all negatives. You can't add a bunch of negatives together and get a positive number. I guess the difference of opinion all starts with the basic assumption about development. Some people see development as a total positive (a 10), and then subtract points for things they don't like. I am neutral on developments so I start at 0 and add points for things I like (and subtract points for things I don't like).

This attitude, which is quite common in Oklahoma, is one of the reasons why people leave.

Instead of trying to understand or learn more about someone's way of life, Oklahoma tells them to bug off and live somewhere else.

I will agree with everyone that thinks Kerry can be a little over the top and absolute in his forum postings.

However, one thing is for certain, he is consistent in his beliefs and he is not afraid to voice his opinion. I have met him in person, and I think that carries over. He is very consistent.

Someone who is consistent, wants to be involved, and will voice opinion is someone you want to keep around, not push away.

I wish more Oklahomans were open to creating a more diverse environment, and enthusiastic toward fostering idea growth and discussion. Your post is an unfortunate caricature of the stubbornness of Oklahoma which is permanently driving away and repelling many intelligent people.

Yep. Similarly, I wish I could *like* this post back.

This attitude, which is quite common in Oklahoma, is one of the reasons why people leave.

Instead of trying to understand or learn more about someone's way of life, Oklahoma tells them to bug off and live somewhere else.

I will agree with everyone that thinks Kerry can be a little over the top and absolute in his forum postings.

However, one thing is for certain, he is consistent in his beliefs and he is not afraid to voice his opinion. I have met him in person, and I think that carries over. He is very consistent.

Someone who is consistent, wants to be involved, and will voice opinion is someone you want to keep around, not push away.

I wish more Oklahomans were open to creating a more diverse environment, and enthusiastic toward fostering idea growth and discussion. Your post is an unfortunate caricature of the stubbornness of Oklahoma which is permanently driving away and repelling many intelligent people.

Oh so true!

The focus should be on improvement. JTF (Kerry) has a wealth of experience and knowledge whether you agree with him or not doesn't mean that what he says has to be dismissed or disrespected.

Sometimes you have to spend time in other places to understand what might work here in Oklahoma.

The 'love it or leave it' attitude does not allow a community to evaluate its current state or allow you to be open to change or incorporate new ideas.

Buh-bye. Don't think you will be missed.

I agree with everything stated about this comment already. no way to behave or to make our city any better. I can understand frustration with some posters who constantly complain about okc and how this city or that city is better and we will never be that city. but I don't think JTF has ever been that person. we all don't have to agree on things but no need for this mentality.

My frustration with the Bus Station is they could have still built everything they wanted here and still saved the bus station but they didn't want to. its gross

The problem I have is that this project isn't a 2 or 3, it is a -3 or -4 for me. Skywalks, parking garages fronting all 4 adjacent streets (including at 2 intersections), large building setback, lackluster architecture, very little retail space, no sidewalk interaction, bike lane removal, increase traffic, etc are all negatives. You can't add a bunch of negatives together and get a positive number. I guess the difference of opinion all starts with the basic assumption about development. Some people see development as a total positive (a 10), and then subtract points for things they don't like. I am neutral on developments so I start at 0 and add points for things I like (and subtract points for things I don't like).

Expansion of Class A space is a positive.
Much to Others and my chagrin, alleviation of parking is a positive.
(Eventual) increased Tax base is a positive.
The fact that it is a nice enough building that I'm sure will provide certain amenities is a positive.
If they get any sort of Street retail in any of these buildings, it is a positive.

All the positives and all the negatives for me make this about a 5 on the scale of 1-10. If you allow me to include what we're losing to build this, I'd drop it to a 3.5 out of spite.

This is only a bad development if you refuse to think outside of yourself and your own beliefs.

But I'll definitely agree with you that it's not a good development, especially with how easy it would be to make certain elements obey urban principles.

Your method would make more sense if these developments existed in a vacuum, but they don't. I am a big picture person. Projects like this do more harm than good to the big picture - the big picture being the City's stated objective of producing a walkable downtown.

FWIW, I'll Miss JTF if he goes away. Not enough to write sad, moving ballads about it, but I will miss him.

Sorry about the no ballad part guy, but g-babies are soon to be back in OK, and I'll be way too busy learning the 8 and under tunes I don't have down cold to be writing any sad ballads.

Just taken by HHE:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/bus072715b.jpg

Your method would make more sense if these developments existed in a vacuum, but they don't. I am a big picture person. Projects like this do more harm than good to the big picture - the big picture being the City's stated objective of producing a walkable downtown.

Sorry but you don't get to fire out generalisations with out being challenged. Does the city want more walkability. Sure it does. But that is not the only goal or is it the "big picture". The city also wants more downtown jobs. And with that comes parking .... Period. You can't have it both ways. On one hand you say only the street level matters. Well this has street level retail. (You bash it because of parking ). In the real world parking is very needed in downtown and will continue to be for the forseeable future. Downtown is growing in houses yes. But the burbs are growing faster. And that is where workers will still come from.

The current reality of downtown is that there are significant parking shortages and thus that has to be sorted out to move downtown employment forward.

It's the result of our very compact downtown and most the bigger buildings without any dedicated parking.

There is the legitimate and immediate need for parking, otherwise so much wouldn't be being built.


Eventually, the streetcar and commuter rail and biking will help, but we are a long ways from having any of that make a significant difference.


I'm personally ready to move on and look forward to seeing the new development and hope they find some good restaurant / retail tenants. That entire area has been a deadzone far too long.

You win BoulderSooner. I am surrendering and moving to a part of the world in the process of dismantling the auto-centric city.

You win BoulderSooner. I am surrendering and moving to a part of the world in the process of dismantling the auto-centric city.

You would be moving to a part of the world that was largely developed before there were even cars.

Not really a fair comparison or realistic model for new cities like OKC, and setting such an unrealistic standard is only going to leave you disappointed.

You win BoulderSooner. I am surrendering and moving to a part of the world in the process of dismantling the auto-centric city.

So back to the suburbs of Jacksonville where you have lived for so long.

Since it's so unrealistic everyone should just give up and be content with this doomed cycle of the way current cities are building. Sounds wonderful.

I meant wanting OKC to be London is unrealistic.

Wanting it to be Denver or a similar U.S. city provides an actual blueprint we can follow.

In the short-term we have to have parking if we want companies to move into or expand downtown.


I wish this project has dealt with the required parking in a more creative way, but they still need the parking otherwise it wouldn't be being built. The property it is being constructed upon was very expensive.

Since it's so unrealistic everyone should just give up and be content with this doomed cycle of the way current cities are building. Sounds wonderful.

That's a little over-dramatic. I think Pete makes a very solid point.

So back to the suburbs of Jacksonville where you have lived for so long.

I hope not. The house in Jax is up for sale,

You would be moving to a part of the world that was largely developed before there were even cars.

Not really a fair comparison or realistic model for new cities like OKC, and setting such an unrealistic standard is only going to leave you disappointed.

That is exactly why I decided to give up.

Anybody that doesn't understand the deep, deep hole that OKC has had to dig out of just isn't very aware. In the context of the developed world, or even in the context of the US, OKC is very, very young. Most of the cities that JTF and others point to as their ideal have existed for a very long time and have been through many of the same problems we have experienced. Many have geographical issues containing their sprawl. Many have economic issues which altered their development patterns.

I have been blessed to have traveled the world many, many times over to most of the great cities of the world...and virtually all have traffic problems and parking problems. They have decay and rebuilding. They destroy buildings with heritage and have controversy over new development. They are fraught with corruption, stagnation, and other problems, just like we do. They are ruled by the powerful and the rich get their way. We didn't invent any of this stuff. If you want to pack up and leave for these reasons, you will be a vagabond hobo the rest of your life.

OKC has miles and miles to go. It is trying to get to good, let alone great or perfect. But I think some really, really underestimate the livability here. If OKC isn't the style they want then it will be much easier on everyone if they do go somewhere for a better match. But, if you want OKC to be a better place for succeeding generations and you are willing to help make that happen, OKC is a great challenge and not a bad place to live. Some people enjoy the work in progress, and some just have to have the finished product. Everyone is different.

If JTF thinks London is utopia, so be it. I have spent considerable time there and know it has some fabulous areas....if you can afford to hang there. But I know enough residents to know their challenges, as well. Bottom line, I hope JTF has a happy and fulfilling life wherever he is and continues to share his ideals and dogma with us here on okctalk. We should welcome his feedback after he has had time to actually immerse in a life somewhere else and give us good feedback.

Good stuff Rover, but I am well aware utopia doesn't exist. Every place has problems, they are just different problems.

Also, yes nearly every place has traffic problems, which is proof that the only way to solve it is to simply not participate in it.

That is what is so darn frustrating about OKC. No city in the history of the world built enough parking garages or freeway lanes to solve the problem, but the good people of OKC won't let that stop them from trying it anyhow. I am reminded of Rush's comments about liberals trying to end poverty by using the same failed ideas that rest of the world already tried and failed at.

Now you do make a good point about those being up for the challenge having an opportunity here in OKC. I just dicided that it isn't for me because it will only result in continual frustration and then I die at the end. No thanks. I am more revolution than evolution.

With all due respect to JTF (and there are elements of his perspective I deeply appreciate) how did a thread about the bus station get derailed into a counseling session with one jaded person who is giving up on a city in which he has not lived for some time?

With all due respect to JTF (and there are elements of his perspective I deeply appreciate) how did a thread about the bus station get derailed into a counseling session with one jaded person who is giving up on a city in which he has not lived for some time?

That is a good question. Back to the demo.
(btw - I live in OKC now).

This isn't about one jaded person. There are many people who have varying levels of frustration with the city. I mean, hell, there are people that have worked for the city that gave up and left town. Some super super talented people. There are people with money that leave out of frustration that could be the kinds of contributors that are sorely needed for this city to become something great.

And this is the perfect thread: The bus station is now a relic of the past…there is no future for this building, and it's analogous for many people that no longer have a future here because of the missteps we have made and continue to make in the development of this city.

It sucks to see the Bus station go down. It sucks more to see the soul sucked out of people who really really care about this community. Maybe the parking garages will offset those losses. But it's not likely.

All because of money. There is simply no other reason. It's disappointing.

If anyone wants bricks from the buildings Midwest is taking names down and giving out information to contact them with. They told me to call a certain someone in a couple weeks and they will have bricks for me from every building. I thought that was pretty cool.

Job site trailers being delivered today:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/bus072715c.jpg

Skanaly, what is the best way to get your name on this list? I'd really like to do this too.

I have a feeling this thing will be coming out of the ground this winter.

Pete, are we going to get a camera ?

Working on getting a good webcam vantage point.

In the meantime, we have some people who can submit good stills almost daily.

I'll be submitting stills. I look forward to watching this building go up. As stated in other threads, I'm originally from the rust belt of Ohio so I've never gotten to see a city grow like this, let alone a high rise go up so I'll probably be taking hundreds of pictures. Personally, I've got very few problems with how OKC is growing. Until a LOT more housing is available around Downtown, people are going to drive into work, so parking is needed.

BTW, I've been assured the sign and tiles will be saved.

When I lived in London I enjoyed not having a car up until every 4 weeks when the tube workers would strike, and getting anywhere in the city was a nightmare. The other thing I realized was how much freedom a car gives someone. In London I was completely dependent on the tube, buses and if I could afford a cab. In Okc I can jump in my car and be nearly anywhere in the city in 15-25 minutes. Not having that option in London made me appreciate it all the more, particularly when I'm in a hurry.

It's all a matter of personal preference. I never sat in traffic or go to the gas station in London but I did deal with tube strikes, crowding during rush hour, having a 5-10 minute walk to get the tube and a 5-10 minute walk getting off, no AC on tube cars (they can get hot during rush hour times).

Last, every city that is put on a pedestal here is very very expensive to live in. If you build a wonderful urban walkable environment, higher prices will soon follow.

There's always trade offs between the two.

When I lived in London I enjoyed not having a car up until every 4 weeks when the tube workers would strike, and getting anywhere in the city was a nightmare. The other thing I realized was how much freedom a car gives someone. In London I was completely dependent on the tube, buses and if I could afford a cab. In Okc I can jump in my car and be nearly anywhere in the city in 15-25 minutes. Not having that option in London made me appreciate it all the more, particularly when I'm in a hurry.

It's all a matter of personal preference. I never sat in traffic or go to the gas station in London but I did deal with tube strikes, crowding during rush hour, having a 5-10 minute walk to get the tube and a 5-10 minute walk getting off, no AC on tube cars (they can get hot during rush hour times).

Last, every city that is put on a pedestal here is very very expensive to live in. If you build a wonderful urban walkable environment, higher prices will soon follow.

There's always trade offs between the two.
Having spent some time in London, I agree totally with what you have stated.

I've spent a lot of time in London as well and had some job interviews there, and riding the tube to get to work is a completely different experience than bopping around mid-day and evening times as a tourist.

I remember letting two trains pass by because they were were so jam-packed I would have had to force myself on board, then be jammed into someone's smelly armpit for 45 minutes. My friends I was staying with said that was how it was both going to work and coming home every single day and they hated the tube. Londoners at rush hour -- particularly on a rainy day, which is the most common weather state -- are a surly, miserable bunch.

I also remember the Metro in Paris stinking to high heaven with B.O. when I was there during a particularly warm summer.


I absolutely love public transportation and take it whenever I get the chance, but having to rely on it exclusively is very, very different than the jaunty American who rides the train a few times, fantasizes about getting rid of their car, then comes home and piles into their luxury auto's leather seats, cranks up their 200-watt stereo and hits the drive-thru on the way back to their private garage.

nm

Since were on subways, if you've never been to Rome then you're missing the worst subway I've ever been on. Literally the majority of the stops have no elevators or escalators. Try pulling luggage up about 300 steps. Barcelona is one of the best I've been on though but only as a tourist. Helsinki's is good but very limited but they are expanding to the burbs too.

If this is already coming out of the ground in 5 months, better hold onto our horses here because they mean business.
I imagine they want to get it going while they still have reason to do so. I was reading around yesterday and some speculation is floating that oil is about to bottom out again.

In the interim, it would have been awesome to see both this and the SC site going up simultaneously. Let's hope that gets going soon, as well.

It will be at least two years and probably three before this place is completely open for business.

Imagine how much things change in any given 3-year period.

A nation of, by, and for the rich and powerful? We didn't need to see this to remind us - it's just another in the never ending reality.
I'm not ready to live in a world of "what is." I want to live in a world of "what we might be."
At 56, I may not see it...but I hope my children or their kids do.
A world where everything isn't determined by the size of your (or someone else's) bank account.

And such a world view always leaves those who hold it in a position of perfect hindsight-based morality, affording them the luxury of reconstructing the end result of any situation into one that demonstrates Yet Another Killing of their own personal sacred cows.

This attitude reminds me of the Cox Cable commercial with the annoying neighbor talking to the new family moving in, leaving with his final gripe about "the soil being mostly clay." In that guy's world, something's always wrong, something's always lamentable, someone's always out to getchya, someone's always got a sinister motive, and anything with a $ in front of it just has to be wrong and evil. I'm a pretty cynical guy at times, but man, I just can't live like that. The abstraction of perceived yet unattainable perfection in the future inevitably makes one perpetually miserable in the present.

OKC's growing pains will continue.

Dallas, a city that blends the old with the new; however, there was uproar about some of the buildings that were demolished for progress until they got a handle on things.

As Dallas discusses slowing downtown demolitions, city council to consider task force and 10-day time-outs | | Dallas Morning News (http://cityhallblog.dallasnews.com/2014/11/as-dallas-discusses-slowing-downtown-demolitions-city-council-to-consider-task-force-and-10-day-time-outs.html/)

A wrecking ball erased 129 years of history along Main Street in downtown Dallas Sunday | | Dallas Morning News (http://cityhallblog.dallasnews.com/2014/09/a-wrecking-ball-erased-129-years-of-history-along-main-street-in-downtown-dallas-sunday.html/)

And such a world view always leaves those who hold it in a position of perfect hindsight-based morality, affording them the luxury of reconstructing the end result of any situation into one that demonstrates Yet Another Killing of their own personal sacred cows.

This attitude reminds me of the Cox Cable commercial with the annoying neighbor talking to the new family moving in, leaving with his final gripe about "the soil being mostly clay." In that guy's world, something's always wrong, something's always lamentable, someone's always out to getchya, someone's always got a sinister motive, and anything with a $ in front of it just has to be wrong and evil. I'm a pretty cynical guy at times, but man, I just can't live like that. The abstraction of perceived yet unattainable perfection in the future inevitably makes one perpetually miserable in the present.

Rich people having a lot of power is a fact of life. It doesn't have to be something you celebrate, but unless you're Hindu you've only got one life, so you should try to make it a happy one. We should try to make the world a better place, but you can't let something like this ruin your life. We aren't talking about civil rights violations here, at the end of the day a rich guy wants to build his new pretty building directly across the street from his old pretty building. There was some stuff in the way that people liked, but he pushed through and got his way and is going to tear it down so he can put his new blue glass building there. That's all this is about. I'm going to miss the Hotel Black and the Motor Hotel. I really liked those buildings. I'm sad to see them go. But when it comes to a rich guy abusing his power, this is way, way below hunting people on his private island.

If this is already coming out of the ground in 5 months, better hold onto our horses here because they mean business.
I imagine they want to get it going while they still have reason to do so. I was reading around yesterday and some speculation is floating that oil is about to bottom out again.

In the interim, it would have been awesome to see both this and the SC site going up simultaneously. Let's hope that gets going soon, as well.

As I've said before, they are planning this based on a long term need and thus using long term commodity forecasts. Not what the price will be next month, but over the next 5 years. Just as they did not during the Devon tower construction, commodity prices will not affect this. Devon also is not technically behind this development so the concern about investors being spooked by a new development are moot at this point.

I've spent a lot of time in London as well and had some job interviews there, and riding the tube to get to work is a completely different experience than bopping around mid-day and evening times as a tourist.

I remember letting two trains pass by because they were were so jam-packed I would have had to force myself on board, then be jammed into someone's smelly armpit for 45 minutes. My friends I was staying with said that was how it was both going to work and coming home every single day and they hated the tube. Londoners at rush hour -- particularly on a rainy day, which is the most common weather state -- are a surly, miserable bunch.

I also remember the Metro in Paris stinking to high heaven with B.O. when I was there during a particularly warm summer.


I absolutely love public transportation and take it whenever I get the chance, but having to rely on it exclusively is very, very different than the jaunty American who rides the train a few times, fantasizes about getting rid of their car, then comes home and piles into their luxury auto's leather seats, cranks up their 200-watt stereo and hits the drive-thru on the way back to their private garage.

OKC is never going to be as dense as London or Paris, not in my lifetime anyway. I lived in Washington DC for 3 years, and took the Metro there nearly every day. Public transportation can be pretty comfortable and clean. Rarely did I feel crammed in like a sardine.

Obviously there are problems when you get to the extremes. If your city is build completely around the car, you get Houston. If no regards are given to the car, you get London. OKC doesn't have to worry about being London, but Houston problems are a real possibility. That's why we need to try and develop the other direction.