View Full Version : Union Bus Station
Rover 06-08-2015, 09:18 AM In all fairness, a history that is 400 years old vs. a pioneer history of barely 100 makes a huge difference in sense of preservation of history. Harbor, three rivers and natural beauty also help. Comparing Charleston to OKC is silly.
Savannah is also microscopic compared to OKC. It's a lot easier to push walkability when you aren't spread out across 1K miles.
Savannah's historic district, i.e., the walkable part, is 2 square miles. Very comparable in size to the area of OKC where walkability matters. I don't think anyone is suggesting that OKC can make 600 square miles walkable, but making walkability a priority in .0034 % of that shouldn't be all that difficult.
I worked on some images for Nick Preftakes, he asked us to show the Bus Station as a restaurant with outdoor seating, along with retail & dining in the existing building to the east. It was to be called Lunch Box Plaza.
lol. I can't think of anything more emblematic of the misguided OKC development strategies than the concept of tearing down the Lunch Box to build a surface parking lot in an urban area named after it.
bchris02 06-08-2015, 09:40 AM Savannah and OKC were settled very differently and thus can't be directly compared, but that doesn't change that one city preserved its history and the other destroyed it. Imagine OKC today if the old city would have been preserved.
https://img1.etsystatic.com/037/0/5862273/il_570xN.626220145_3hxw.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/movies/johnson_libertys.jpg
Savannah and OKC were settled very differently and thus can't be directly compared, but that doesn't change that one city preserved its history and the other destroyed it. Imagine OKC today if the old city would have been preserved.
I really don't think anyone is suggesting that OKC be savannah. That would actually take a complete do over (and a time machine)
However, there is one important takeaway from Savannah that just about any city can learn from: Planning. Savannah is often referred to as America's first planned city. Whether the "first" part of it is true or not, it was Savannah's structured plan that made that part of the city worth preserving in the first place. We really have no plan, or, at least, we are unwilling to enforce it.
jccouger 06-08-2015, 10:17 AM You guys have taken this too far.
The original post was just about the bus station turned diner, and how successful it has become. There is no need to a full blown analysis on OKC Vs. Savannah & ways we should strive to be more like them. Just stick to the micro comparison & leave the politics & broad theory's out of it. Some of you really tend to over complicate stuff.
You guys have taken this too far.
The original post was just about the bus station turned diner, and how successful it has become. There is no need to a full blown analysis on OKC Vs. Savannah & ways we should strive to be more like them. Just stick to the micro comparison & leave the politics & broad theory's out of it. Some of you really tend to over complicate stuff.
I have to respectfully disagree. I actually think most, if not all, of the developmental mistakes in Oklahoma City have been caused when specific developments made no consideration for the macro level affect they have on the surrounding environment, or, even worse, when the politics at play lead to a disregard of the policies in place that were implemented to help facilitate a cohesive and integrated environment.
It's really just a coincidence that Savannah has successfully renovated a bus station into a popular destination in the city. But It is not a coincidence that it happened in a city with a plan that fosters such projects and that it won't be done in a city that doesn't have a plan, and/or is unwilling to to enforce the plan it has. The Union Bus station is a single asset, but it's destruction and the development that will replace it is a direct product of the city's lack of focused planning and the politics that guide it. This idea that every development exists in its own vacuum is the exact "broader theory" that has led to OKC being a city that many are indifferent about preserving and why it still struggles to create a cohesive urban district that effectively diversifies the city's appeal to the different ways many people like to live and work today. IMO, discussions about the fate of every existing structure and the environmental change any development will have on the neighborhood should always contain a macro level component. And, unless it is somehow a violation of this board's rules, I think any poster who wants to discuss any development in that context should be encouraged to do so.
Just the facts 06-08-2015, 04:03 PM lol. I can't think of anything more emblematic of the misguided OKC development strategies than the concept of tearing down the Lunch Box to build a surface parking lot in an urban area named after it.
It seems to be common practice among developers to name their projects after what they destroyed to build it, as if it is a memorial to what they themselves killed. I guess it is their attempt at 'place making' since the development itself can't pull it off.
Spartan 06-08-2015, 08:51 PM I really don't think anyone is suggesting that OKC be savannah. That would actually take a complete do over (and a time machine)
However, there is one important takeaway from Savannah that just about any city can learn from: Planning. Savannah is often referred to as America's first planned city. Whether the "first" part of it is true or not, it was Savannah's structured plan that made that part of the city worth preserving in the first place. We really have no plan, or, at least, we are unwilling to enforce it.
No, we have no plan (your first scenario)...
Crews marked all the utilities today around the bus station (thanks to jeepnokc for the photo):
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/bus070815.jpg
Just saw on the journal record Twitter that the judge ruled it can be torn down. Be interesting to read his brief if it becomes available.
The judgment just recaps the evidence that was presented, and then summarizes with this:
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/bus071415.jpg
bchris02 07-14-2015, 10:10 AM Just saw on the journal record Twitter that the judge ruled it can be torn down. Be interesting to read his brief if it becomes available.
Figures.
baralheia 07-14-2015, 10:14 AM Sigh. This is really not the outcome I had hoped for, but it is exactly what I expected. At least we tried.
Next step is to do whatever is necessary to strengthen our historic preservation ordinances in this city so that something like this can't happen again.
Here is the full ruling:
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/bus071415.pdf
bchris02 07-14-2015, 10:22 AM Sigh. This is really not the outcome I had hoped for, but it is exactly what I expected. At least we tried.
Next step is to do whatever is necessary to strengthen our historic preservation ordinances in this city so that something like this can't happen again.
Sorry for the negativity here, but Oklahoma City is perceived around the country as being one of the most soulless, characterless cities in the U.S. and we are witnessing exactly why. This is unbelievable. One of the last remaining historic urban blocks in town is getting ready to come down for a sterile glass tower with no street interaction and a massive parking garage. Is this still 1985?
I definitely agree with strengthening historic preservation ordinances, but at this point what is there left to save?
LakeEffect 07-14-2015, 10:30 AM Sorry for the negativity here, but Oklahoma City is perceived around the country as being one of the most soulless, characterless cities in the U.S. and we are witnessing exactly why.
Seriously? We may not be revered, but I've never encountered anyone that thought of us as soulless and characterless. The only recurring theme I've heard is "I don't know much about OKC."
I get the feeling the judge was conflicted while writing this. Strengthening the ordinance is a definite direction to take.
What do we have left? First National, for one.
PhiAlpha 07-14-2015, 10:35 AM Sorry for the negativity here, but Oklahoma City is perceived around the country as being one of the most soulless, characterless cities in the U.S. and we are witnessing exactly why.
BChris with all due respect, shut up. Even though you've lightened up here...you've continued to spew this same crap under another user name on the OKC city-data forum and it's beyond annoying. Just because you hate it here and can't leave because of whatever messed up situation you got yourself into, does not mean the rest of the country perceives OKC as soulless and characterless. Most people I've encountered in cities outside of OKC know little to nothing about OKC. If they do know anything, it's about our indian and western heritage (or the Thunder) and that is in no way soulless or characterless. Even without this block, there is absolutely no reason to view OKC that way. You act as if we are the only city that has ever knocked down a historic block, hint your favorite escape destination (or maybe second to Charlotte), Dallas, knocked down it's historic buildings and built a bunch of glass, soulless towers on a scale greater than anything we could hope to achieve.
The demolition of this block sucks, but it is not the end of the world and certainly doesn't render the city "soulless and characterless"
dankrutka 07-14-2015, 10:36 AM Sorry for the negativity here, but Oklahoma City is perceived around the country as being one of the most soulless, characterless cities in the U.S. and we are witnessing exactly why.
This is a classic case of bchris02 taking his feelings and, without evidence, claiming it somehow represents national views. Can't you just make your point without these silly comments?
I just started with a new triathlon team here in Southern California and I've had three people tell me (upon learning I'm from Oklahoma) that they have been to OKC and thought it was 'cool'.
Having said that, this ruling is expected yet disappointing.
Last week, crews were marking utilities and cutting concrete behind the station. I suspect demolition will start very soon on all the buildings.
Of Sound Mind 07-14-2015, 10:42 AM this is a classic case of bchris02 taking his feelings and, without evidence, claiming it somehow represents national views. Can't you just make your point without these silly comments?
bingo
jccouger 07-14-2015, 10:56 AM Looking forward to following the construction of a new downtown tower. It is a fairly massive scale project that OKC has rarely seen in its history, and will be fun to document from start to finish.
There has been a rumor that the building may end up being slightly taller, but I have not been able to confirm that.
TU 'cane 07-14-2015, 11:12 AM I haven't heard anyone call OKC "soulless," personally. I've heard many other things, both positive and negative, but never soulless.
However, bchris still has a point that here we are, watching a few older buildings be torn down for a mid-sized glass building. Oh, and it's really not even final at that, see what's happening with Stage Center, it was torn down months ago and here we all are, still looking at a dirt lot with no record of scheduled movement on it, whatsoever - only speculation.
This project will be "nice" when it's finished, and we can only take it in stride at this point and hope they hurry up. The sooner this project is completed, the better.
But back to bchris's comment about lacking soul, that's why it's imperative Bricktown keeps it's swag. It needs to be gritty, it needs to be hokie so it has character. So when people remember OKC, they say "yea, Bricktown was really cool and memorable." Where battles may be lost here, win them with the other catalysts of the city.
Looking forward to following the construction of a new downtown tower. It is a fairly massive scale project that OKC has rarely seen in its history, and will be fun to document from start to finish.
I've turned my attitude as harboring over a loss is bad for one's health. All we can do now is learn.
I'm looking forward to watching this progress.
And hey, I'm one of "those people" who likes projects like this to be visible with height, and if Pete's unconfirmed report is true that it may end up being even a floor or two taller, I'll be happier.
OkieNate 07-14-2015, 11:17 AM BChris with all due respect, shut up. Even though you've lightened up here...you've continued to spew this same crap under another user name on the OKC city-data forum and it's beyond annoying. Just because you hate it here and can't leave because of whatever messed up situation you got yourself into, does not mean the rest of the country perceives OKC as soulless and characterless. Most people I've encountered in cities outside of OKC know little to nothing about OKC. If they do know anything, it's about our indian and western heritage (or the Thunder) and that is in no way soulless or characterless. Even without this block, there is absolutely no reason to view OKC that way. You act as if we are the only city that has ever knocked down a historic block, hint your favorite escape destination (or maybe second to Charlotte), Dallas, knocked down it's historic buildings and built a bunch of glass, soulless towers on a scale greater than anything we could hope to achieve.
The demolition of this block sucks, but it is not the end of the world and certainly doesn't render the city "soulless and characterless"
:congrats::congrats::congrats: Standing ovation. Ironic he calls OKC "soulless and characterless". That is pretty close to how I'd describe him.
This is a classic case of bchris02 taking his feelings and, without evidence, claiming it somehow represents national views. Can't you just make your point without these silly comments?
+1
PhiAlpha 07-14-2015, 11:58 AM :congrats::congrats::congrats: Standing ovation. Ironic he calls OKC "soulless and characterless". That is pretty close to how I'd describe him.
I was warming up to him over the last year or so until I randomly looked in at the city-data OKC thread and found that under the new alias bawac34618 (yes they are definitely the same person) he takes nearly every post in every thread as an opportunity to bash OKC, even those outside of the OKC forum. It's like he seeks out any opportunity to throw shade on OKC...and does so. It is almost comical...have a look:
City-Data Forum - Search Results (http://www.city-data.com/forum/search.php?searchid=18723895)
bchris02 07-14-2015, 12:05 PM Just because you don't like what somebody has to say doesn't warrant harsh personal attacks. Anyways, I think I am done with this site, at least for a while. Peace out everyone.
I was warming up to him over the last year or so until I randomly looked in at the city-data OKC thread and found that under the new alias bawac34618 (yes they are definitely the same person) he takes nearly every post in every thread as an opportunity to bash OKC, even those outside of the OKC forum. It's like he seeks out any opportunity to throw shade on OKC...and does so. It is almost comical...have a look:
City-Data Forum - Search Results (http://www.city-data.com/forum/search.php?searchid=18723895)
That's incredible. I'm somewhat at a loss...
I don't want this to turn in to a bash Bchris thing, but come on dude. There is no way that anyone could be as miserable as you claim to be in OKC. Absolutely no way. You called OKC a prison. WOW.
Bellaboo 07-14-2015, 12:18 PM Just because you don't like what somebody has to say doesn't warrant harsh personal attacks. Anyways, I think I am done with this site, at least for a while. Peace out everyone.
Thanks, if what you were saying had merit, it'd be okay, but repeatedly you're off base. After reading some of that City-Data forum, maybe you do need to move on..?
adaniel 07-14-2015, 12:18 PM I was warming up to him over the last year or so until I randomly looked in at the city-data OKC thread and found that under the new alias bawac34618 (yes they are definitely the same person) he takes nearly every post in every thread as an opportunity to bash OKC, even those outside of the OKC forum. It's like he seeks out any opportunity to throw shade on OKC...and does so. It is almost comical...have a look:
City-Data Forum - Search Results (http://www.city-data.com/forum/search.php?searchid=18723895)
Oh my.....that certainly explains a lot.
Back to the subject at hand, maybe I am just a glass half full type person but I am convinced this may finally be the point in which OKC starts setting some real standards in terms of HP guidelines.
BoulderSooner 07-14-2015, 12:18 PM In what way do people want to see the ordabince strengthened? About the only thing I can see that would be stronger is to flat out deny historic demo under any circumstances. And that IMHO would not be a good alternative
NWOKCGuy 07-14-2015, 12:32 PM Sorry for the negativity here, but Oklahoma City is perceived around the country as being one of the most soulless, characterless cities in the U.S. and we are witnessing exactly why. T
Where have you seen this? I have friends that just got done visiting from San Jose and they thought the exact opposite. In fact they loved the amount of older buildings in our downtown compared to theirs...
PhiAlpha 07-14-2015, 12:42 PM Just because you don't like what somebody has to say doesn't warrant harsh personal attacks. Anyways, I think I am done with this site, at least for a while. Peace out everyone.
You make attacks on the city and people here constantly, how is calling you out on that a personal attack? It has more to do with your self loathing and constant hyperbole than it does anything else. Pointing out issues is one thing, everyone here does that. No one claims OKC is perfect. What we don't like is the fact that you go around misrepresenting OKC as the worst place in the world with a bunch of outright lies and hyperbole. If any of it was even remotely accurate that would be one thing, but nearly everything you don't like about OKC stems from your attitude and your personal situation here, not reality.
As far as being done posting here, based on how much you obviously hate OKC, I'm confused as to why you waste time doing so.
PhiAlpha 07-14-2015, 12:56 PM I don't want this to turn in to a bash Bchris thing, but come on dude. There is no way that anyone could be as miserable as you claim to be in OKC. Absolutely no way. You called OKC a prison. WOW.
That prison comment is just the tip of the iceberg.
http://www.city-data.com/forum/members/bawac34618-1843275.html
LakeEffect 07-14-2015, 01:11 PM In what way do people want to see the ordabince strengthened? About the only thing I can see that would be stronger is to flat out deny historic demo under any circumstances. And that IMHO would not be a good alternative
Staff drafted an option about 4 years ago but it was killed in the public process. It included various items that dealt with economic impact and other items. It was along the lines of what is already in the Urban Design district code.
Bellaboo 07-14-2015, 01:12 PM There has been a rumor that the building may end up being slightly taller, but I have not been able to confirm that.
I had heard something to this regard but not substantiated.
There has been a rumor that the building may end up being slightly taller, but I have not been able to confirm that.
BTW, I just spoke to a very solid source and was told that this is just a rumor and that 499 Sheridan will be built pretty much exactly as has been depicted.
gopokes88 07-14-2015, 01:22 PM You make attacks on the city and people here constantly, how is calling you out on that a personal attack? It has more to do with your self loathing and constant hyperbole than it does anything else. Pointing out issues is one thing, everyone here does that. No one claims OKC is perfect. What we don't like is the fact that you go around misrepresenting OKC as the worst place in the world with a bunch of outright lies and hyperbole. If any of it was even remotely accurate that would be one thing, but nearly everything you don't like about OKC stems from your attitude and your personal situation here, not reality.
As far as being done posting here, based on how much you obviously hate OKC, I'm confused as to why you waste time doing so.
You can talk about any city in the country and make it sound awful. Every city has positives and negatives.
Rover 07-14-2015, 01:34 PM Sorry for the negativity here, but Oklahoma City is perceived around the country as being one of the most soulless, characterless cities in the U.S. and we are witnessing exactly why. This is unbelievable. One of the last remaining historic urban blocks in town is getting ready to come down for a sterile glass tower with no street interaction and a massive parking garage. Is this still 1985?
I definitely agree with strengthening historic preservation ordinances, but at this point what is there left to save?
I do business all over the country and NEVER heard it described as you do. Your drama is astounding and so is your lack of reality.
SOONER8693 07-14-2015, 01:34 PM BChris with all due respect, shut up. Even though you've lightened up here...you've continued to spew this same crap under another user name on the OKC city-data forum and it's beyond annoying. Just because you hate it here and can't leave because of whatever messed up situation you got yourself into, does not mean the rest of the country perceives OKC as soulless and characterless. Most people I've encountered in cities outside of OKC know little to nothing about OKC. If they do know anything, it's about our indian and western heritage (or the Thunder) and that is in no way soulless or characterless. Even without this block, there is absolutely no reason to view OKC that way. You act as if we are the only city that has ever knocked down a historic block, hint your favorite escape destination (or maybe second to Charlotte), Dallas, knocked down it's historic buildings and built a bunch of glass, soulless towers on a scale greater than anything we could hope to achieve.
The demolition of this block sucks, but it is not the end of the world and certainly doesn't render the city "soulless and characterless"
Ditto. I wish there was some way to help this soul leave OKC forever.
BoulderSooner 07-14-2015, 02:01 PM Staff drafted an option about 4 years ago but it was killed in the public process. It included various items that dealt with economic impact and other items. It was along the lines of what is already in the Urban Design district code.
Would this give the committee more info. A higher threshold to approve demo or both?
Those both sounds like things that are reasonable.
Contrary to some I am not "pro" demo. I just think taking that option completely off the table is unreasonable whith every building.
catcherinthewry 07-14-2015, 02:08 PM Just because you don't like what somebody has to say doesn't warrant harsh personal attacks. Anyways, I think I am done with this site, at least for a while. Peace out everyone.
Awesome, that's two positives for me today. 499 Sheridan gets to move forward and bchris is leaving this forum!
bombermwc 07-14-2015, 02:18 PM Personally, I'm glad we're done arguing over this building and can move on. I may be in the minority in the views here, but I saw no good reason to keep the place. I was hoping someone would tear it down long before we had 499 as a possibility. There are similar buildings around the country that have been converted, but none of them are island buildings in a seat of concrete parking like ours is.
I'll take 499 over this poorly designed waiting room any day. Get the keys, and I'll start the dozer myself.
bchris - contrary to your personal views, every person I've brought to OKC for a visit has been pleasantly surprised by most things here. They mostly came in with no idea of what to expect and left with a very positive view. That group also includes family members that are architects and engineers, among other professions. But I do agree that personal attacks aren't necessary.
dankrutka 07-14-2015, 03:38 PM Just because you don't like what somebody has to say doesn't warrant harsh personal attacks. Anyways, I think I am done with this site, at least for a while. Peace out everyone.
Personal attacks are not okay. I was just pointing out a specific statement that is part of a pattern of baseless statements. You have no evidence for your claim and you do this all the time.
Now, discussing whether OKC lacks character or soul or whatever is a totally legitimate discussion. It seems OKC has little regard for its history and continually makes the same mistakes... The demolition of this bus station is indeed very disappointing.
But that's a very different discussion than one surrounding supposed national opinions which are totally made up.
jn1780 07-14-2015, 03:56 PM Would this give the committee more info. A higher threshold to approve demo or both?
Those both sounds like things that are reasonable.
Contrary to some I am not "pro" demo. I just think taking that option completely off the table is unreasonable whith every building.
Pretty much irrelevant at this point. Most historic buildings worth saving are already gone.
PhiAlpha 07-14-2015, 04:36 PM Where have you seen this? I have friends that just got done visiting from San Jose and they thought the exact opposite. In fact they loved the amount of older buildings in our downtown compared to theirs...
That has been my experience as well especially with family in town from Dallas.
TU 'cane 07-15-2015, 08:36 AM BTW, I just spoke to a very solid source and was told that this is just a rumor and that 499 Sheridan will be built pretty much exactly as has been depicted.
Darn. We need 17 feet to make this the third tallest building in OKC. 17 feet...
Yes, I'm one of those people.
UnFrSaKn 07-25-2015, 12:33 PM https://mobile.twitter.com/KevinMotto/status/624976337602674688
Laramie 07-25-2015, 01:32 PM nm
Laramie 07-25-2015, 01:34 PM Darn. We need 17 feet to make this the third tallest building in OKC. 17 feet...
Yes, I'm one of those people.
IIRC only know of 1 situation where a building was expanded from it first proposal. Oklahoma Tower (Originally Known as One Galleria Tower) was initially proposed to have 21 stories. Vincent Carrozza later decided to make it a 31 story tower.
Over the course of four years, Carrozza constructed three buildings now known as Corporate Tower, Oklahoma Tower and Mid-America Tower.
Flashback: Downtown developer Vincent Carrozza<br>Economic boom delayed by decades | News OK (http://newsok.com/flashback-downtown-developer-vincent-carrozzabreconomic-boom-delayed-by-decades/article/2918580)
PhiAlpha 07-25-2015, 01:55 PM https://mobile.twitter.com/KevinMotto/status/624976337602674688
Well that didn't take long
mkjeeves 07-25-2015, 02:36 PM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju9yFA1S7K8
UnFrSaKn 07-25-2015, 03:56 PM VIDEO: Union Bus Station demolition begins | News OK (http://newsok.com/video-union-bus-station-demolition-begins/article/5436186)
From catch22;
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/bus072515a.jpg
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/bus072515b.jpg
zookeeper 07-25-2015, 08:24 PM Woulda, coulda, shoulda....but it really could have been something great. I know, the land and development speculators don't need to bother responding, it's just too bad that we never learn our lessons.
Kemotblue 07-25-2015, 09:08 PM I snapped some photos this morning with both my Iphone and Click and shoot. I saw them tearing this down. Sad day Bye Bye Union Bus Station. :(
shavethewhales 07-25-2015, 10:52 PM Sorry if this has been confirmed already, but are they still planning on saving the sign and hanging it in a box on the corner?
IMO, this is a worse loss than stage center because of the potential. In a few years when that block is nothing but bland corporate facade we'll still be arguing over all the possibilities that this beautiful old structure could have been used for.
Moving on isn't always a positive.
RickOKC 07-25-2015, 11:31 PM In the end, potential is not reality--it's potential. While cool things could have come of the bus station, some very wealthy people paid a lot of money for the property, have gone through the expense of making a reasonable plan of what to do with that land, and guided that plan through all the proper legal channels. I am honestly for preservation more than this post might seem, but once you start having bulldozer claws pushing through brick walls, it's time to live in the world of what is.
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