The place is a dump. Its time to move on from it.

the place is a dump. Its time to move on from it.


yes!!!

Except, it could easily be renovated and be home to a new downtown RePUBlic.

Imagine how cool that would be and help to tie in this part of the CBD with the burgeoning west downtown area such as Film Row and 21c.

So say the building is kept, are there even interested parties that want to buy this place and do something seriously extraordinary with it to justify keeping it? Sounds like something a bunch of architects, designers, and Ed Shadid would get off on, but outside of the cool looking sign, 99% of the city thinks the building is not worth sparing. I just don't get it. The buildings across the street I understood, this one I don't.

So say the building is kept, are there even interested parties that want to buy this place and do something seriously extraordinary with it to justify keeping it? Sounds like something a bunch of architects, designers, and Ed Shadid would get off on, but outside of the cool looking sign, 99% of the city thinks the building is not worth sparing. I just don't get it. The buildings across the street I understood, this one I don't.

The current owners had a tentative deal for RePUBlic to open there.

There is open space on the corner that is completely useless; another corporate plaza no one will use. So, just shift the building and the parking garage over and renovate the bus station.

They just want their plaza and the big parking garages.

So say the building is kept, are there even interested parties that want to buy this place and do something seriously extraordinary with it to justify keeping it? Sounds like something a bunch of architects, designers, and Ed Shadid would get off on, but outside of the cool looking sign, 99% of the city thinks the building is not worth sparing. I just don't get it. The buildings across the street I understood, this one I don't.

The bus station really doesn't do much for me. However... there are a lot of people who would buy that building and turn it into something special. They were just not allowed to do it.

What is happening here is this:

1) Devon purchased the land through Nick Preftakes to build a parking garage.
2) Preftakes ran out all the occupants of the buildings and let them deteriorate to their current state, in violation of city codes.
3) Devon revealed plans that don't follow the city's design guidelines and would demolish historic buildings.
4) Despite all that, the city okay'ed it, because it is Devon.

You can't say "well if this was such a good structure, someone would have done something with it already" when you give tremendous preference to a wealthy buyer, and you don't require them to follow the same rules as everyone else.

The bus station really doesn't do much for me. However... there are a lot of people who would buy that building and turn it into something special. They were just not allowed to do it.

What is happening here is this:

1) Devon purchased the land through Nick Preftakes to build a parking garage.
2) Preftakes ran out all the occupants of the buildings and let them deteriorate to their current state, in violation of city codes.
3) Devon revealed plans that don't follow the city's design guidelines and would demolish historic buildings.
4) Despite all that, the city okay'ed it, because it is Devon.

You can't say "well if this was such a good structure, someone would have done something with it already" when you give tremendous preference to a wealthy buyer, and you don't require them to follow the same rules as everyone else.


THIS!

and by the looks of the postings. many people bought what they were selling. I am sure many people would have loved to buy it and do something with it if they had the opportunity. People would have rented space in Hotel Black if they had the opportunity. but they were ran out to serve a "greater" purpose and now we are being told how worthless everything there is and lets put up some parking garages.

The bus station really doesn't do much for me. However... there are a lot of people who would buy that building and turn it into something special. They were just not allowed to do it.

What is happening here is this:

1) Devon purchased the land through Nick Preftakes to build a parking garage.
2) Preftakes ran out all the occupants of the buildings and let them deteriorate to their current state, in violation of city codes.
3) Devon revealed plans that don't follow the city's design guidelines and would demolish historic buildings.
4) Despite all that, the city okay'ed it, because it is Devon.

You can't say "well if this was such a good structure, someone would have done something with it already" when you give tremendous preference to a wealthy buyer, and you don't require them to follow the same rules as everyone else.

Thanks hoya.

Pete, when you say "current owners", is that not Nick Preftakes?

Hoyasooner reminds me of The Oracle at Delphi. (except more accurate on the way things are . . . and will be.)
(that was a compliment. sorry for any mistranslation.)

Pete, when you say "current owners", is that not Nick Preftakes?

It was Nick Preftakes who had struck a tentative deal with RePUBlic, then changed his mind for some reason.

Nick had reached out to several local restaurant operators and liked the RePUBlic idea the best.

Then, after deciding to scuttle the bus station, he went back to restaurant owners asking if they'd be interested in new space. I don't think RePUBlic is interested in the new build.

It was a good fight to save it, sits a little far back from the corner though. Wish the BLACK HOTEL were on this corner instead.

The place is a dump. Its time to move on from it.

It could be great if renovated. Same with One North Hudson and the Motor Hotel. Downtown OKC has so much empty land that there is no viable reason to have to demolish more history for parking. Devon's entire complex could fit in the empty space within the Preftakes Block. They could do what they do in any other city and incorporate the parking below the tower, which would also satisfy those who want to see more height. The Bus Station could then become a restaurant or diner and the Motor Hotel and One North Hudson could be renovated into residential. That would be a truly amazing use of this block.

My opinion, for what little it's worth in this case, is that this was the one thing we could even reasonably try to save without a crazy amount of effort. If we fail, not as big a perceived (re)loss, and "at least we tried to save something". If we succeed, then we saved SOMEthing and semi-credibility is restored.

I think this could actually be a great location for two separate restaurant or retail locations rather than just one. The south side with the Art Deco facade could be the entrance for one smaller business, and the west side could have a separate entrance for a second larger business. Also, since the west side of the building has such a significant setback from the street, you could build out the west side so that it butts up to where the sidewalk should be. Then to further enhance street interaction there, you could reserve areas on either or both sides of the build-out to serve as outdoor patio space.

To me, the problem isn't just that the bus station is being razed, but what's replacing it: sterile parking garages. This area will have very few older buildings left and all new buildings and parking garages will create a dead zone. If this bus station was renovated it could be a fantastic source of activity and provide a sense of history for the area. If the bus station had been renovated into a RePUBlic I bet it would have been one of the hottest spots in OKC. Instead, this part of OKC will soon be dull, uninviting, and generic.

Instead, this part of OKC will soon be dull, uninviting, and generic.

a couple blocks down to the west would like to have a word with you. as much as we want every inch of urban fabric to be amazing and active and hot, don't act like attractive spots aren't a 2 minute walk from this location

I think it would be unfair to summarize all this as "The 'Pay' Plan" for the New Millennium. In fact, I'm sure of it. Being unfair. And short-sighted. From a historical perspective.

The place is a dump. Its time to move on from it.

Yeah, it's too bad those people in the Plaza district and Uptown didn't tear down their dumps, too.

The bus station was occupied and fully functioning until Preftakes recently bought it.

Far better condition that the huge majority of historic buildings that have been already renovated in the core.

a couple blocks down to the west would like to have a word with you. as much as we want every inch of urban fabric to be amazing and active and hot, don't act like attractive spots aren't a 2 minute walk from this location

I didn't act like that or say it, but just because there is good urbanism nearby in Film Row, doesn't mean this had to be bad. Both could have been good, but instead you will have to walk through a deserted area after 5pm to get to that urban fabric. Some people will choose not to keep walking... It didn't have to be that way.

I think the potential to have something cool here is definitely interesting and should be looked into.

However, the main reason that I want this saved, is because of what would be replacing it.

Devon's entire complex could fit in the empty space within the Preftakes Block.

There is so much wasted space on the current Devon site is should be against City ordinances....oh wait.

To me, the problem isn't just that the bus station is being razed, but what's replacing it: sterile parking garages. This area will have very few older buildings left and all new buildings and parking garages will create a dead zone. If this bus station was renovated it could be a fantastic source of activity and provide a sense of history for the area. If the bus station had been renovated into a RePUBlic I bet it would have been one of the hottest spots in OKC. Instead, this part of OKC will soon be dull, uninviting, and generic.

This. The biggest problem with razing it is its being replaced by a giant, lifeless concrete cube. With parking garage to the west and one possibly to the south in the future, this intersection and block becomes as you say, dead zone, dull, and uninviting. With a little alterations, parking and the bus station can all co-exist.

^

Will also be a barrier to tying together the CBD and the rapidly emerging west downtown scene, with 21c, Hall Capital and Film Row.

When we walked past the bus station during the arts festival and I explained to my daughter it was being razed for a parking garage, she said: "I'm done with this city. We should move."

haha.

Just a couple of other dumpy old bus stations:

https://foursquare.com/v/the-bus-terminal-family-restaurant/4b0b0be0f964a5200f2c23e3/photos

The Grey, Savannah - Restaurant Reviews, Phone Number & Photos - TripAdvisor (http://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_Review-g60814-d7339809-Reviews-The_Grey-Savannah_Georgia.html#photos)

Converted bus depot transports Savannah diners to another era | Dallas Morning News (http://www.dallasnews.com/lifestyles/travel/us/20150417-converted-bus-depot-transports-savannah-diners-to-another-era.ece)

New Lease on Life for Old Greyhound Bus Station - Tristatehomepage - Eyewitness News (http://www.tristatehomepage.com/story/d/story/new-lease-on-life-for-old-greyhound-bus-station/41448/vyf-UfOeyU6FQTgaetlddQ)

https://irs2.4sqi.net/img/general/width960/12054455_Qr2XN0JRSuQReN4k3FckAvXOEhWrE82A0BHvi2PhS 30.jpg

http://www.amyspencerinteriors.com/new/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/The-Grey-Savannah-GA-bus-station-turned-restaurant.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/Bus_Terminal_Restaurant_on_Danforth_at_night.jpg

I have not been there since 1979 and it might have been razed since then. Anyone here familiar with the Varsity in Atlanta? It was in the old bus station downtown. They served hot dogs and burgers, fries, onion rings, and drinks and was billed as the world's largest drive in. Or, if you wished, you could eat inside in the old waiting room. You ordered at the old ticket counter and the kitchen was in the former baggage room. If you ate in your car the bus slips (parking slots) were where you placed your order. The food was not fancy but it was cheap. The story goes that Nipsy Russell had worked at the Varsity when he was younger. I suspect that that was before the Varsity was located in the former bus station. Why can I remember all these details but can't remember what I did yesterday?

I have not been there since 1979 and it might have been razed since then. Anyone here familiar with the Varsity in Atlanta? It was in the old bus station downtown. They served hot dogs and burgers, fries, onion rings, and drinks and was billed as the world's largest drive in. Or, if you wished, you could eat inside in the old waiting room. You ordered at the old ticket counter and the kitchen was in the former baggage room. If you ate in your car the bus slips (parking slots) were where you placed your order. The food was not fancy but it was cheap. The story goes that Nipsy Russell had worked at the Varsity when he was younger. I suspect that that was before the Varsity was located in the former bus station. Why can I remember all these details but can't remember what I did yesterday?

The Varsity is still there and doing very well.

My lifelong experience in this city; there hasn't been anything 'impressive' about the bus station or Club Burgundy which sat on the corner just north of it. The area turned into a big hangout for punks, pimps & panhandlers (PPPs). As far as the historic bus station sign, the Oklahoma History Center could provide a good home where they have some outstanding history exhibits downtown artifacts like the Katz Drugstore Counter during the sit in demonstrations by the NAACP under Clara Luper.

The important things this city should have been trying to preserve were lost during the urban renewal years in the 60s and beyond. The heart of historic downtown was ripped out when the Criterion Theater went down. This was the crown jewel cathedral among theaters in OKC:


http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/Projects/Downtown/MainSt/Criterion_Theatre.jpg https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=JN.aiIU6mb2LzSqE5vbqBjCJQ&pid=15.1&P=0

The only true relics that I can name off the top of my head that we have left in this city from that downtown era are the Colcord, First National Center, City Place Tower, Southwestern Bell Tower, Hilton Skirvin Hotel, Civic Center Music Hall, Oklahoma County Courthouse, Municipal Building & the Farmers Market.

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=JN.%2b%2flERCgjjLKoNTbobSaKMg&pid=15.1&P=0 http://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/r620-616983377072dfdc488185f68b209cde.jpg
Bye bus station--your time was long overdue... ...out with the old, in with he new. New bus station at Reno & Eastern Avenue.

When we walked past the bus station during the arts festival and I explained to my daughter it was being razed for a parking garage, she said: "I'm done with this city. We should move."

haha.

Wonder who she's heard this from ?

My lifelong experience in this city; there hasn't been anything 'impressive' about the bus station or Club Burgundy which sat on the corner just north of it. The area turned into a big hangout for punks, pimps & panhandlers (PPPs)

That is pretty much the exact same history for just about every successfully renovated urban district in America. A seedy past has nothing to do with what it would be in the future. Same with bricktown, midtown, updtown, and the plaza district. There are people paying $1000/mo+ in midtown living in buildings that were flop houses and hosts for squatters. The bus station actually had multiple parties interested in bringing it back to life with a new use, none of which I am aware of that would cater to punks, pimps, and panhandlers (PPPs).

^^^

Isn't this the story for all of Skid, er, Film Row?

Thank you for filling in the details Pete. I'm glad that someone was able to put some info to my question.

I'm not sure I really changed my mind on being ok with the dozers coming through though. If the station had connections to other buildings or WOULD have connections to other buildings through front flow, it would drastically change my mind. But the thing's an island and that wouldn't change. I've already said I don't really feel like it's a good example of architecture of it's time compared to other things, but I'm obviously not a professional on the matter.

My issue with republic is what happens after that fails? We'd be back at square one with a lost chance to doze it. I don't know, I think I'm still cool with putting a garage in over this place.

Let's look at it the other way, what happens if RePUBlic is a huge success (which I am highly confident it would have been)? Could it have instigated more development in the area and created somewhere people want to be that actually bridged the gap between Bricktown-CBD-Film Row?

Let's look at it the other way, what happens if RePUBlic is a huge success (which I am highly confident it would have been)? Could it have instigated more development in the area and created somewhere people want to be that actually bridged the gap between Bricktown-CBD-Film Row?

You make a good case Dan.

We could probably attribute much success to the 50-story Devon Energy Tower. My memories of the bus station's PPPs was right before they moved it to the present location. The area was becoming a 'hub' for undesirables.

More like the 4ps (Punks, Pimps, Panhandlers & Prostitutes); the prostitution wasn't as heavy near the bus station which possessed women/men/it who couldn't give-it-away.

Maybe they could bring the bus station back to the CBD at a later date. My last memories of that place was creepy; especially when called upon to pick up relatives from that area. I recall the night I transported my daughter who arrived from Dallas to OKC being approached by an old snaggletooth women who asked me would I like a date? Politely said to her, NO THANK YOU! She couldn't have hog-tied me to stoop that low...

Just think of what was planned for the old Gary Dales' BBQ site; there were other alternatives:

The New Greyhound Station or a Strip Club Across from the Future American Indian Cultural Center | News OK (http://newsok.com/the-new-greyhound-station-or-a-strip-club-across-from-the-future-american-indian-cultural-center/article/3899517)

Every city has an underbelly. What was going on at the bus station before it moved is irrelevant.
The issue is the building itself and its potential, which could be very bright - as evidenced by examples in this thread.

Thank you for filling in the details Pete. I'm glad that someone was able to put some info to my question.

I'm not sure I really changed my mind on being ok with the dozers coming through though. If the station had connections to other buildings or WOULD have connections to other buildings through front flow, it would drastically change my mind. But the thing's an island and that wouldn't change. I've already said I don't really feel like it's a good example of architecture of it's time compared to other things, but I'm obviously not a professional on the matter.

My issue with republic is what happens after that fails? We'd be back at square one with a lost chance to doze it. I don't know, I think I'm still cool with putting a garage in over this place.

Did you really just say that if a restaurant went into the bus station and failed that we lost the opportunity to demo it? And unless you work at Devon, I'm not sure why anyone in their right mind would prefer a giant concrete parking garage over a cool rehabbed old building that has been brought back to life.

Did you really just say that if a restaurant went into the bus station and failed that we lost the opportunity to demo it? And unless you work at Devon, I'm not sure why anyone in their right mind would prefer a giant concrete parking garage over a cool rehabbed old building that has been brought back to life.

This.

Some people just cannot wrap their mind around the fact that some of the coolest up and coming places packed with the most character were once seedy, undesirable locations. Just because some people may have negative memories of the bus station doesn't mean it can't be something awesome in the future.

I can't wrap my head around why we're focusing on the damn Union Bus Station. If we're arguing over losing historic buildings in place of the parking garage, then I'd be all over Carpenter Square and Main Street. Not an awkwardly postioned, small bus station with minimal street frontage, a parking lot, and limited adaptive reuse.

A restaurant would be cool. Thousands of jobs, more retail/office and parking is of a higher and better use to me. Ehh. To each their own.

Although, the small footprint of the building should allow them to come up with a compromise on the West parking garage. Make it a little taller and less wide and you'd think there would be room for the UBS to stay. Although, there will go the retail bays in the parking garage as there won't be much street frontage left for ingress/egress AND retail frontage. It could happen but I don't have that sort of faith in the developers.

I can't wrap my head around why we're focusing on the damn Union Bus Station. If we're arguing over losing historic buildings in place of the parking garage, then I'd be all over Carpenter Square and Main Street. Not an awkwardly postioned, small bus station with minimal street frontage, a parking lot, and limited adaptive reuse.

A restaurant would be cool. Thousands of jobs, more retail/office and parking is of a higher and better use to me. Ehh. To each their own.

Although, the small footprint of the building should allow them to come up with a compromise on the West parking garage. Make it a little taller and less wide and you'd think there would be room for the UBS to stay. Although, there will go the retail bays in the parking garage as there won't be much street frontage left for ingress/egress AND retail frontage. It could happen but I don't have that sort of faith in the developers.

You have a good point. However, I think the focus is on the bus station because that is viewed as the most likely thing to be saved if anything is possible at all. One North Hudson and the Motor Hotel are pretty much lost causes. If it were up to me, I would squeeze in the tower in the empty lot between the bus station and One North Hudson. If I HAD to demolish something, it would be the bus station and I would keep the buildings fronting Hudson. That isn't possible though because doing so would defeat Devon's ambitions to turn that area into a corporate campus.

I can't wrap my head around why we're focusing on the damn Union Bus Station. If we're arguing over losing historic buildings in place of the parking garage, then I'd be all over Carpenter Square and Main Street. Not an awkwardly postioned, small bus station with minimal street frontage, a parking lot, and limited adaptive reuse.

A restaurant would be cool. Thousands of jobs, more retail/office and parking is of a higher and better use to me. Ehh. To each their own.

Although, the small footprint of the building should allow them to come up with a compromise on the West parking garage. Make it a little taller and less wide and you'd think there would be room for the UBS to stay. Although, there will go the retail bays in the parking garage as there won't be much street frontage left for ingress/egress AND retail frontage. It could happen but I don't have that sort of faith in the developers.

Not thousands of jobs. Dozens of parking spaces. That's what is taking the place of the bus station. It is being destroyed to moderately lower the cost of more structured parking.

You have a good point. However, I think the focus is on the bus station because that is viewed as the most likely thing to be saved if anything is possible at all. One North Hudson and the Motor Hotel are pretty much lost causes. If it were up to me, I would squeeze in the tower in the empty lot between the bus station and One North Hudson. If I HAD to demolish something, it would be the bus station and I would keep the buildings fronting Hudson. That isn't possible though because doing so would defeat Devon's ambitions to turn that area into a corporate campus.

Huh? One North Hudson was Class A office space not long ago. Full of law firms. The Motor Hotel was also operating as a parking garage in my lifetime (I'm not very old for those who don't know).

This is about doing the cheapest possible development on this site. Devon is feeling the hurt from low oil prices just like everyone else.

You make a good case Dan.

We could probably attribute much success to the 50-story Devon Energy Tower. My memories of the bus station's PPPs was right before they moved it to the present location. The area was becoming a 'hub' for undesirables.

More like the 4ps (Punks, Pimps, Panhandlers & Prostitutes); the prostitution wasn't as heavy near the bus station which possessed women/men/it who couldn't give-it-away.

Maybe they could bring the bus station back to the CBD at a later date. My last memories of that place was creepy; especially when called upon to pick up relatives from that area. I recall the night I transported my daughter who arrived from Dallas to OKC being approached by an old snaggletooth women who asked me would I like a date? Politely said to her, NO THANK YOU! She couldn't have hog-tied me to stoop that low...

Just think of what was planned for the old Gary Dales' BBQ site; there were other alternatives:

The New Greyhound Station or a Strip Club Across from the Future American Indian Cultural Center | News OK (http://newsok.com/the-new-greyhound-station-or-a-strip-club-across-from-the-future-american-indian-cultural-center/article/3899517)

Why do you describe less fortunate people this way?

Did you really just say that if a restaurant went into the bus station and failed that we lost the opportunity to demo it? And unless you work at Devon, I'm not sure why anyone in their right mind would prefer a giant concrete parking garage over a cool rehabbed old building that has been brought back to life.

Yes, yes I did. Much like Architect said, I just don't feel like this place qualifies for the things so many people want it to. Look at how it's built. it's a building surrounded by parking lot on all sides. It's very small, and as far as being an "example of a style", I don't buy into that. That's just my opinion, but there it is. For me, the parking garage is part of a larger development project and I'm willing to let this blasé building go to make room for something else. I'd rather be able to keep one north Hudson and the motor hotel, but there seems to be less fight on those than this crappy little 1 story waiting room (which is what it is).

What I meant by the lost chance is that if republic failed a year or two from now, would we have lost the opportunity for a new development to come into the area because the real estate possibilities have changed. Timing can be everything on the financial side. Waiting to see if a restaurant rehab of a building MIGHT (and let's not stretch too much by giving it a pass since others in the VERY near area don't just do hot) work isn't a gamble I'm personally willing to take.

So yes, for me i'll hop in the bulldozer and run the place over myself....even if it's a parking garage.

Yes, yes I did. Much like Architect said, I just don't feel like this place qualifies for the things so many people want it to. Look at how it's built. it's a building surrounded by parking lot on all sides. It's very small, and as far as being an "example of a style", I don't buy into that. That's just my opinion, but there it is. For me, the parking garage is part of a larger development project and I'm willing to let this blasé building go to make room for something else. I'd rather be able to keep one north Hudson and the motor hotel, but there seems to be less fight on those than this crappy little 1 story waiting room (which is what it is).

What I meant by the lost chance is that if republic failed a year or two from now, would we have lost the opportunity for a new development to come into the area because the real estate possibilities have changed. Timing can be everything on the financial side. Waiting to see if a restaurant rehab of a building MIGHT (and let's not stretch too much by giving it a pass since others in the VERY near area don't just do hot) work isn't a gamble I'm personally willing to take.

So yes, for me i'll hop in the bulldozer and run the place over myself....even if it's a parking garage.


Over time; came to same conclusion. Lets get some dirt moving already.

Snapped this pic walking back from lunch today.... Thought it was kind of cool and since both of these signs will probably be gone soon. Thought I would archive it here.

10888

Makes me think of apple pie. And cigarettes.

I worked on some images for Nick Preftakes, he asked us to show the Bus Station as a restaurant with outdoor seating, along with retail & dining in the existing building to the east. It was to be called Lunch Box Plaza.
108921089310894

I worked on some images for Nick Preftakes, he asked us to show the Bus Station as a restaurant with outdoor seating, along with retail & dining in the existing building to the east. It was to be called Lunch Box Plaza.
108921089310894

If you can say, how long ago was this ? Thanks

That was done in 2011.

Did Nick pay you for that work? If so (or even if not), do you think it was appropriate to release it here?

What's interesting is the plans show the Lunch Box building demolished with only the sign remaining.

What was the point of that anyway? Just to dress up a surface lot? Seems like a lot of wasted work for the space....especially knowing he wanted to take out the whole block.

What was the point of that anyway? Just to dress up a surface lot? Seems like a lot of wasted work for the space....especially knowing he wanted to take out the whole block.

It was probably just a stop gap to make a little money before the demos started. Small investment for a revenue stream. Similar to the bricktown mini golf course, or blue garten.

Is the objective to save the bus station, or to stop 499?

Restaurants of the Year: 2015 Winners | Food & Wine (http://www.foodandwine.com/slideshows/restaurants-year-2015-winners#!slide=2)

thegreyrestaurant.com

Restaurants of the Year: 2015 Winners | Food & Wine (http://www.foodandwine.com/slideshows/restaurants-year-2015-winners#!slide=2)

thegreyrestaurant.com

It's funny, OKC political leaders say they want walkability, but when faced with the decisions to actually do it they fold up like cheap lawn chairs. OKC can't hold Savannah's walking shoes.

Savannah is also microscopic compared to OKC. It's a lot easier to push walkability when you aren't spread out across 1K miles.

Comparing OKC to Savannah in any way, shape or form is ridiculous. Savannah's very culture is based on humanistic planning; Oglethorpe's squares are nearly 300 years old. When we decided in the 50s to start gutting our downtown of historic structures, at the same time Savannah was embarking on an aggressive plan to preserve theirs.

They have a prominent university downtown dedicated to the arts - including the building arts - and when SCAD needs more space instead of building new they take a historic structure and renovate it. The entire downtown acts as a college campus, with SCAD buildings spread randomly throughout and students and faculty walking between them. It's an apples-to-bicycles comparison.

I don't think size of the city, be it population or actual city limits, is the predominant factor. Walkability and urbanity is determined primarily by how a city was built and how much of its original building stock has been preserved. Unfortunately for OKC most of the old city was destroyed. If OKC still had its building stock that it had in the 1950s, it would be a very, very different place today.

Savannah, like Charleston, is a 300+ year old city mostly still intact today.