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Richard at Remax 09-18-2012, 10:13 AM No it doesn't. Because you bring logic and thought into your arguement. I grew up in Edmond, live in Edgemere Park now, and I and the people I know from Edmond could give two craps about how close parking is.
And you are right and the point I wanted to make, WHO CARES what the suburbs think of an urban parking situation. Adapt or don't come. I just think it was a weak excuse on Hogans part to scale back the size of his building due to the size of the parking lot.
Just the facts 09-18-2012, 10:26 AM Anyone who says he can't build high density because of the size of the parking lot was lost before he even got started.
Anyone who says he can't build high density because of the size of the parking lot was lost before he even got started.
Ha! Good point!
CaptDave 09-18-2012, 10:33 AM Anyone who says he can't build high density because of the size of the parking lot was lost before he even got started.
Indeed.....I have an extremely difficult time taking seriously anyone who complains about a lack of parking in Bricktown. Just look at an aerial photograph for crying out loud. Urbanized nailed it when he stated we need more parking structures to open up land for development. Just take the horizontal parking vertical, add some capacity to account for more businesses, then get the earthmovers moving on those huge surface lots ASAP.
catch22 09-18-2012, 10:44 AM Unfortunately, it will be a long time before Lower Bricktown gets fixed the right way. The only way for that to happen will be organically, and the current design will make that a slow and complicated process. A big part of the problem, IMO is the fact that south of Reno, the canal turns into a winding and wandering moat. When it is straight on the north side, it defines the pedestrian environment. And makes walking distances shorter (a perception issue). For all intents and purposes for design around the canal, the canal must be considered a street. Wandering streets (without a purpose such as terrain, etc.) don't make good pedestrian environments or set off an urban vibe. And the buildings that build along it, will follow the lead of suburban architecture created by the wandering 'street'.
onthestrip 09-18-2012, 10:52 AM The idea that he has to have structure parking to build 2 story is bogus. If he were to build 2 story it would be 90% likely that the top floor would be office. A) office space would require much parking and B) parking demand is obviously low during the day and thats when any office would need parking.
Bellaboo 09-18-2012, 10:56 AM He's lying. He would have the same footprint no matter how tall, 1, 2 or 3 floors. He's just being cheap. The email campaign needs to go to whatever group approves or nixes the current plan.
Just the facts 09-18-2012, 11:03 AM The idea that he has to have structure parking to build 2 story is bogus. If he were to build 2 story it would be 90% likely that the top floor would be office. A) office space would require much parking and B) parking demand is obviously low during the day and thats when any office would need parking.
This is called 'time deiversity' and should be one of the goals of any urban development. If you are going to spend money building a parking space ideally you want it used as many hours during the 24 cycle as possible. As one group of users move out of an area a second group of users should move in (and preferabbly of the same numerical size). This allows businesses to have more customers spread across a longer time period which make for sustainable retail.
Richard at Remax 09-18-2012, 11:21 AM No apologies necessary, I overreacted myself, but it just can be frustrating from someone from edmond to to be on a pro-urban forum to always hear about lets not be like edmond. I mean its a suburb, like any other one. And there are some entitled bad apples that live there too, also like any other ones.
But back to the main problem, until we have a transportation system that encourages us to not use our cars in the urban center then there will always be parking issues down there. But until then tastefully designed parking structures should be encouraged. LIke the Sonic parking lot between the sonic building and the Rensaissance Hotel, there could be a parking garage there on the north side and on the south side could be a multilevel hotel/apartments with retail on the bottom.
jn1780 09-18-2012, 11:32 AM I always see that parking lot south of Bass Pro half empty. Even on a Friday night. People going to the baseball game were paying for parking even though this lot was practically empty. Only on Thunder game nights does it fill up.
The parking problem is cultural.
Look at the acres of surface parking surrounding this site:
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/lbt.jpg
Just the facts 09-18-2012, 11:53 AM ...and you didn't even capture the north Bricktown lots.
Rover 09-18-2012, 12:01 PM We can gripe all we want, but it is simple economics. There is too much supply of cheap surface sites. The higher the demand/cost of the land, the higher the density of the development and better roi. No one will voluntarily build structured parking if low cost land or cheap existing parking is close. We are simultaneously expecting to grow high density in multiple areas of downtown and it will take time. You don't see 2,000 ft one story homes built in Nichols Hills...not on lots costing $200-500,000. You see structures that are in balance with the lot costs, and almost all are at least 2 story. But, it is a catch 22 for downtown. We have made Film Row, Midtown, SOSA, Bricktown, Automobile Alley, Deep Deuce, core to shore, Medical District, the cotton gin site and the river, ALL development areas. That is a lot of area and it will take time to develop density. If we had tighter focus and built demand one area at a time then I believe high density would happen quicker, but in smaller neighborhoods. Just look at what is happening in DD now. Lots are disappearing, rates are increasing, and higher density development isn't as much a risk so money is really starting to pour in.
Just the facts 09-18-2012, 12:18 PM You don't see 2,000 ft one story homes built in Nichols Hills...not on lots costing $200-500,000. You see structures that are in balance with the lot costs, and almost all are at least 2 story.
Good point, but that is the arguement the urbanist have been making. Hogan got free land, so what does he care if 80% of it is parking - it isn't like he had to buy it. He got it for free so any crap development will do - for him. I'll bet my a$$ if he had to shell out true market value there wouldn't be acres of surface parking.
catch22 09-18-2012, 12:25 PM http://gyazo.com/0b76e9fe4bb9918e4649191b3e9408db.png?1347987183
Red: Current buildings
Blue: Future buildings
1. 4 story mixed use. First floor retail/restaurant. Floors 2-4 office.
2. 8 story hotel
3. 2 story mixed use. Ground floor retail, top floor office. (see Auto Alley)
4. 5 story mixed use. Ground floor retail/restaurant/office. Floors 2-5 Residential or office. Approx 25,000 sq. feet ground floor.
5. 5 story mixed use. Large ground floor restaurant space. Floors 2-5 Residental.
6. 4 story mixed use. Large ground floor restaurant or retail space. Office above.
7. 5 story mixed use. Restaurant/retail ground floor. Residential above.
8. Parking garage with ground floor retail and restaurant.
9. 4 story mixed use. Ground floor restaurant/retail. Top floors office.
10. 10 story residential tower. Ground floor grocery space/retail.
That was just about a 30 minute sketch. I'm sure the creative minds at okctalk could improve that drastically. Obviously, probably would not happen anytime soon. But even with the planning failures, it can still be corrected without demolition (would be easier to just demo everything and start over though, not cost efficient though).
Just the facts 09-18-2012, 12:43 PM I would prefer to start over and put in a proper street grid.
catch22 09-18-2012, 12:48 PM I would prefer to start over and put in a proper street grid.
I would too. But I doubt we can expect that anytime in the future with the way our planning works. See the boulevard debacle.
Rover 09-18-2012, 01:19 PM Good point, but that is the arguement the urbanist have been making. Hogan got free land, so what does he care if 80% of it is parking - it isn't like he had to buy it. He got it for free so any crap development will do - for him. I'll bet my a$$ if he had to shell out true market value there wouldn't be acres of surface parking.
At the time that deal was done there was very little value to the land. The incentives are ways to try to create value.
BoulderSooner 09-18-2012, 01:21 PM Good point, but that is the arguement the urbanist have been making. Hogan got free land, so what does he care if 80% of it is parking - it isn't like he had to buy it. He got it for free so any crap development will do - for him. I'll bet my a$$ if he had to shell out true market value there wouldn't be acres of surface parking.
if you wanted tenets .. he would have lots of parking
Just the facts 09-18-2012, 01:48 PM At the time that deal was done there was very little value to the land. The incentives are ways to try to create value.
I understand that. which is why the City was promised a development that didn't reflect the value of the land.
Just the facts 09-18-2012, 01:51 PM if you wanted tenets .. he would have lots of parking
In a parking garge yes, but even at the lower end of urban population densities there could be housing for 2000 to 3000 people on this property, in addition to everything that is there now. This is where Bricktown missed the boat and will be problematic when other urban districts around downtown take off.
Rover 09-18-2012, 02:10 PM Maybe as a part of the incentives packages, the subsidized business could be made to disclose the financials on the project to see if there is inordinate profit taking on the transactions. If the financial reality is that even with $0 cost of land that the rest of the cost has to be returned at a fair rate. If the subsidized party is making an exceptional profit either through operations or appreciation due to the city's investment, then that is a different story. To require developments that will be doomed to financial failure isn't smart either. Unless we know the particulars then we don't really know whether what is proposed is fair or not.
Spartan 09-18-2012, 02:17 PM We can gripe all we want, but it is simple economics. There is too much supply of cheap surface sites. The higher the demand/cost of the land, the higher the density of the development and better roi. No one will voluntarily build structured parking if low cost land or cheap existing parking is close. We are simultaneously expecting to grow high density in multiple areas of downtown and it will take time. You don't see 2,000 ft one story homes built in Nichols Hills...not on lots costing $200-500,000. You see structures that are in balance with the lot costs, and almost all are at least 2 story. But, it is a catch 22 for downtown. We have made Film Row, Midtown, SOSA, Bricktown, Automobile Alley, Deep Deuce, core to shore, Medical District, the cotton gin site and the river, ALL development areas. That is a lot of area and it will take time to develop density. If we had tighter focus and built demand one area at a time then I believe high density would happen quicker, but in smaller neighborhoods. Just look at what is happening in DD now. Lots are disappearing, rates are increasing, and higher density development isn't as much a risk so money is really starting to pour in.
The free market created all of those areas. How do you suppose were we to prevent cool urban development in areas like SoSA or far Midtown because it's too far from the core?
Rover 09-18-2012, 02:25 PM The free market created all of those areas. How do you suppose were we to prevent cool urban development in areas like SoSA or far Midtown because it's too far from the core?
First, Urban Renewal/Government and the then "correct" view of urban planning created many of the huge gaps. And yes, free enterprise contributed. And if you believe JTF then GM and the government colluded to do the damage along with Satan. Second, no one is saying that SOSA, Midtown, etc. shouldn't develop and I agree they are cool and fresh. But that doesn't change the economic catch 22 that exists - way more supply than demand. It is why this is a long term development project to urbanize OKC. It is changing and in some areas it is happening quickly as demand increases and supply decreases.
Spartan 09-18-2012, 02:33 PM Rover... Your posts are seeping with venom more than usual these days. Kerry is a little crazy but there is a lot of truth to what killed downtowns everywhere.
But did you just say way more supply than demand? What universe are you on? Also I'm not sure what this has to do with LB...
betts 09-18-2012, 03:04 PM At the time lower Bricktown was started, clearly the city was happy to have anything there. Times have changed, and city planning needs to change with it. We are seeing a resurgence in activity in downtown and surrounds, and it is now becoming a seller's market. The city needs to value its property more and be more discriminating about what is built where. I think lower Bricktown could use a parking garage, and perhaps better use can be made of some of that surface parking.
And while I agree that there is a dilutional effect due to simultaneous development of other areas near downtown, that sort of thing is not surprising and not easily subject to control, given the fact that most of it is private development and acceptable urban architecture or renewal.
Spartan 09-18-2012, 03:06 PM How have we diluted downtown development?
I can't believe this thing about too much supply is gaining traction.
Rover 09-18-2012, 03:28 PM The fact is that there are LOTS of development opportunities and LOTS of vacant spaces. That is the excess supply. What we are trying to do is drive up demand which will eventually meet or exceed supply. Then we will see more valuable and taller structures, less wasted space, and higher priced buildings....more density that we all want.
I also think lower BT will be marginally valuable until the future of the cotton mill is known. That too is a game changer property because of its size and location.
Rover 09-18-2012, 03:33 PM Rover... Your posts are seeping with venom more than usual these days. Kerry is a little crazy but there is a lot of truth to what killed downtowns everywhere.
But did you just say way more supply than demand? What universe are you on? Also I'm not sure what this has to do with LB...
Btw, sorry for unintended venom....not intended. I agree with a lot of what he says. I'm just less rigid and, IMHO, more pragmatic.
Spartan 09-18-2012, 03:49 PM The fact is that there are LOTS of development opportunities and LOTS of vacant spaces. That is the excess supply. What we are trying to do is drive up demand which will eventually meet or exceed supply. Then we will see more valuable and taller structures, less wasted space, and higher priced buildings....more density that we all want.
I also think lower BT will be marginally valuable until the future of the cotton mill is known. That too is a game changer property because of its size and location.
Can't disagree here. I think some of you would be surprised at how land speculation costs have driven up in the last 5 years though... Of course land spec really sucks.
Urbanized 09-18-2012, 05:38 PM http://gyazo.com/0b76e9fe4bb9918e4649191b3e9408db.png?1347987183
Red: Current buildings
Blue: Future buildings
1. 4 story mixed use. First floor retail/restaurant. Floors 2-4 office.
2. 8 story hotel
3. 2 story mixed use. Ground floor retail, top floor office. (see Auto Alley)
4. 5 story mixed use. Ground floor retail/restaurant/office. Floors 2-5 Residential or office. Approx 25,000 sq. feet ground floor.
5. 5 story mixed use. Large ground floor restaurant space. Floors 2-5 Residental.
6. 4 story mixed use. Large ground floor restaurant or retail space. Office above.
7. 5 story mixed use. Restaurant/retail ground floor. Residential above.
8. Parking garage with ground floor retail and restaurant.
9. 4 story mixed use. Ground floor restaurant/retail. Top floors office.
10. 10 story residential tower. Ground floor grocery space/retail.
That was just about a 30 minute sketch. I'm sure the creative minds at okctalk could improve that drastically. Obviously, probably would not happen anytime soon. But even with the planning failures, it can still be corrected without demolition (would be easier to just demo everything and start over though, not cost efficient though).
Very similar to what I have suggested for years, with a few interesting wrinkles I had not considered. To respond to Pete's earlier post that said only one pad site left, LB is done, I say that is only if you accept that the original use plan is the right plan. I think with the benefit of hindsight most would agree that more density in LB would be desirable. If you introduce structured parking you open up broad swaths of land currently used as parking (some canal-front!!) as NEW pads. The limits on development are only imposed by a 15-year-old plan that many now feel (and some felt all along) is too suburban in nature from a land use standpoint.
I think that the pressure on OCURA/Hogan to build the best possible structure for the KD restaurant is fine, and even appropriate, but I think a much more important effort would be for OCURA and others to work with Randy to amend the original development plan and make better use of the REST of that property.
catch22 09-18-2012, 06:38 PM I'd also like to see a pedestrian mall from Reno south through where you have the building labeled "1". Transecting pedestrian access along the canal is key.
Yes pedestrian egress was a challenge in this due to the location of existing buildings (Sonic, etc.). Do you mean leave that space empty but turned into a public pedestrian space or leave the building but create a pedestrian corridor through the bottom floor?
shawnw 09-18-2012, 08:24 PM My friend and I just about LOL'ed...which would have been a mistake because we quickly realized, she was serious. The irony is, neither of us arrived in AA by car. Both of us walked and met at the Slingers.
I was wondering if this story would make "the talk". :-)
I like your version of it better than mine. Maybe we just need to have some "re-education" sessions with her, bring her around to the better way of thinking with regard to parking...
shawnw 09-18-2012, 08:26 PM So, is the official southern boundary of lower bricktown? Where is the dividing line with the boathouse district? Will it be the boulevard? I ask because I interpreted Steve's article as referring to Hogan building south of the boulevard eventually...
Can we get OCURA to cede Lower BT to either catch22 or Sid???
Both plans are excellent and represent how the area can grow in the future and do it right.
Unfortunately, Randy Hogan will merely slap up one last single-story, plain-Jane restaurant pad and call it good, with tons of money in his pocket and leaving OKC a massive missed opportunity.
Spartan 09-18-2012, 08:52 PM https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--D_buM2KuZg/UFkM1nGhvkI/AAAAAAAEZa0/pZe3tlODp3k/s794/Google+Earth+snapshot
Not sure if that image works, if not, here is the link:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/108893052743238235905/albums/posts/5789672911130443330
Bascially, blue is new retail. Notice next to Harkins we need to fill that void on the west side of that new pedestrian walkway headed south. Ramp stays. Everything else is just ideas for new retail. The green is a new plaza space that will compliment Toby Keith's place and Kevin Durant's. If I was king, I'd theme the plaza after the "stars" of Oklahoma. Even try to see if we could get more retail in that space branded the same way. So it would be a major tourist destination.
The large red square is a new, major parking structure. The route south from there could be easily redone as the that intersection is essentially a 3-way. Right now it just feeds into the hotel but there already is an entrance for it. So I'd redo that intersection to make the pedestrian plaza start just to the north of it so that people feel like parking in the structure is an easy walk. No light jumping or anything like that. Signals prioritized for pedestrians with significant crossing times. I'd even prefer to see it as an "all-way" crossing for pedestrians, just like Mickey Mantle and Reno needs to be.
So the brown color is basically pedestrian space.
Make sense?
I don't see why the Alliance couldn't just do another big garage deal in conjunction to finding a redeveloped for the garbage heap that is LB.
LandRunOkie 09-19-2012, 09:50 AM The fact is that there are LOTS of development opportunities and LOTS of vacant spaces. That is the excess supply. What we are trying to do is drive up demand which will eventually meet or exceed supply. Then we will see more valuable and taller structures, less wasted space, and higher priced buildings....more density that we all want.
Bricktown was created to be an "entertainment district" and it will probably always be that. I would like to see the new building be two stories just so the profit-taking by Hogan isn't so one-sided. But I would never live in a tourist trap district and have to believe few reasonable people would.
Just the facts 09-19-2012, 10:12 AM Bricktown was created to be an "entertainment district" and it will probably always be that.
The problem is that 'entertainment districts' aren't sustainable. Bricktown either needs to evolve or die.
mgsports 09-19-2012, 10:22 AM National Retail would be good like maybe a NBA Store next to his Restaurant.
Steve 09-19-2012, 11:23 AM The problem is that 'entertainment districts' aren't sustainable. Bricktown either needs to evolve or die.
Say what? (this will be a shock to folks in several decades-old entertainment districts across the country)
BoulderSooner 09-19-2012, 11:34 AM The problem is that 'entertainment districts' aren't sustainable. Bricktown either needs to evolve or die.
actually they are ..
BoulderSooner 09-19-2012, 11:36 AM steve is tweeting that the OCURA board is not happy with the way the building interacts with the parking lots instead of the canal
Hooray! Let's see where this leads.
Remember that OCURA has been completely restructured of late, with Joe Van Bullard demoted, Cathy O'Connor more or less over-seeing it and Larry Nichols as the chairman.
This is one of their first opportunities as newbies to assert themselves and demand more.
Larry OKC 09-19-2012, 11:57 AM ...At this point, as Pete has already said, Hogan's work is almost finished. I don't see Lower Bricktown changing much. But this needs to be ammo for any future public investment projects where any notion of urbanism is rested upon. No crystal ball here obviously but there are cities like Minneapolis, Omaha, and others that are emerging competitors and if they get it better than we do, this investment wont return as envisioned.
I agree but I can hear them now: "What are you talking about? What has been developed there has been a great success. We need more of the same"
Once the boulevard is in place, the light will shine even more brightly on LBT to the point it will look even worse.
The biggest problem with this development (apart from the developer himself) was there was no real design oversight other than by a very weak OCURA. Hogan's plans have always been outside the purview of the big three design review committees: Bricktown, Downtown and Urban.
G.Walker 09-19-2012, 12:42 PM All Randy has to do is have it redesigned as a fake two story building, he can design it to have really high ceilings, and make it look like a two story building, when it really is not, and have it pushed more to the canal, which he will probably do, then it will be approved,
dankrutka 09-19-2012, 12:47 PM "Urban Renewal commissioners are NOT willing to approve the latest Lower Bricktown restaurant design proposed by Randy Hogan.."
-Tweet from Steve : https://twitter.com/stevelackmeyer/status/248456033436041217
Good news that they're not just rubber stamping anything. Hopefully this has some teeth for real change. At the very least let's see some real interaction with the canal.
Steve's next Tweet said their issue was with how the building interacts with the surface parking, not the canal.
So much for hope.
king183 09-19-2012, 01:03 PM Steve's next Tweet said their issue was with how the building interacts with the surface parking, not the canal.
So much for hope.
I read that tweet as the commissioners being upset that the building is designed to interact with surface and not with the canal. In other words, they want the building to interact with the canal.
Yes, I think I misinterpreted. Thanks for the correction.
Here it is:
Commissioners unhappy with how the building is designed to interact with surface parking, not the Bricktown Canal.
Just the facts 09-19-2012, 01:17 PM Say what? (this will be a shock to folks in several decades-old entertainment districts across the country)
I think you will find that those 'entertainment districts' evolved. I'm not saying Bricktown isn't evolving, I was countering the argument putforth that said Bricktown was built as an entertainment district and this is all it will ever be. Bricktown is obviously already moving beyond an 'entertainment district' with the addition of office, retail, education, hotel/conference center, and housing. If after 20 years Bricktown was still just bars and restraunts it would have died a long time ago.
An entertainment district isn't going to make it long term on Friday and Satruday night crowds and lunch rush. It has to be more than that - which Bricktown is. That was my only point.
Steve 09-19-2012, 02:03 PM Steve's next Tweet said their issue was with how the building interacts with the surface parking, not the canal.
So much for hope.
They don't like the building either.
Steve 09-19-2012, 02:04 PM I think you will find that those 'entertainment districts' evolved. I'm not saying Bricktown isn't evolving, I was countering the argument putforth that said Bricktown was built as an entertainment district and this is all it will ever be. Bricktown is obviously already moving beyond an 'entertainment district' with the addition of office, retail, education, hotel/conference center, and housing. If after 20 years Bricktown was still just bars and restraunts it would have died a long time ago.
An entertainment district isn't going to make it long term on Friday and Satruday night crowds and lunch rush. It has to be more than that - which Bricktown is. That was my only point.
Ok, that makes more sense...
They don't like the building either.
Good news.
Thanks for your stories about this issue, as they bring awareness and certainly help to influence the subsequent decisions.
mcca7596 09-19-2012, 03:47 PM Why didn't they bring these issues up with Toby Keith's?
This is a completely different OCURA group since Toby Keith's was built.
Just the facts 09-19-2012, 04:00 PM Why didn't they bring these issues up with Toby Keith's?
This is a completely different OCURA group since Toby Keith's was built.
Let's not rule out the presence of an engaged public, made possible in part by OKCTalk and other social media. We had Oklahomas Own at the time, but the audience was very small.
CaptDave 09-19-2012, 04:08 PM Imagine something like this in place of the single story strip mall in front of the theater.....
http://www.smartgrowthamerica.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/carmel-city-center.png
Just the facts 09-19-2012, 04:13 PM Imagine something like this in place of the single story strip mall in front of the theater.....
http://www.smartgrowthamerica.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/carmel-city-center.png
That looks almost like what Hogan promised.
Let's not rule out the presence of an engaged public, made possible in part by OKCTalk and other social media. We had Oklahomas Own at the time, but the audience was very small.
Yes, and Steve's articles and blog definitely brought attention to the issue.
Just six months ago, OCURA didn't even publish it's agenda or minutes. Folding it into the Economic Development Trust has already brought massive changes.
Up until very recently, most of their dealings were very much out of the public eye.
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