I agree Metro - as bad as it is, atleast it takes up some vacant space.

I guess at the end of the day its just an extension of what was built directly to the west of this property.

It will also be easy to replace down the road.

I guess at the end of the day its just an extension of what was built directly to the west of this property.

Would you guys rather have a dang grass lot....?

Would you guys rather have a dang grass lot....?

Nope, but that doesn't mean I can't dream of something better that could go there.

Edit: I would like to think are city has grown out of the "its better than a dang grass lot" phase of our development, I guess not. At least were not waving carrots for sporting good stores anymore. BP is about to have more competition from all four corners of the metro in a couple of months.

Id rather have the grass

Would you guys rather have a dang grass lot....?

If the choice is between grass lots and this, then what does that say about this development? If I was a developer and someone even entertained the thought that my development was even comparable to a grass lot, I would be ashamed.

If it's a Hal Smith Group chain, it'll last. The building may not be so cool, but it'll have more people traffic than the empty grass lot. Several years ago, we went to San Antonio twice in about 15 months. What we were amazed by was the 'turnover' in resturants, what we had enjoyed were either something else or completely vacant, and it was in the urban canal wall of buildings.

I love San Antonio Riverwalk, however, past two times I have been there I have been practically alone on the river at 9 pm. It was mid week, but I would have expected more life and traffic. As for historic, the river was a sewer..that's the history.

We should hope this restaurant is good and draws people. Whether there is a lively patio or not, the restaurant will bring people IN to the city and they will spend time before, after, or both. It will give people one more reason to go downtown and/or to stay, and that is good.

As for it being scraped later...maybe after years and years. But, there is so much undeveloped and under-developed land downtown there will be lots of other places to scrape before businesses with cash flow and profit will be replaced.

Very true. Sad to hear that about SARW. Haven't been in over 10 years.

In general, I am for just about any kind of development in OKC for the reason you stated. But then why have the design committee? That is where my beef is. I fail to grasp their vision for BT. Is it simply an ED one? Perhaps they are just miss-labeled.

I believe the Bricktown Design Committee does not have jurisidction south of Reno Ave.... Maybe I was dreaming that up.

I'd that is true, I apologize. I have misplaced 'blame' then.

Wasn't dreaming, according to this map. Hardly any of Lower bricktown is subject to any special review commitee. Just the planning department for building permits.
http://www.okctalk.com/other-urban-development/31681-urban-design-districts.html

Lower Bricktown is under design control - but it's overseen by the Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority, which has historically been more flexible than the design review committees.

I believe the Bricktown Design Committee does not have jurisidction south of Reno Ave.... Maybe I was dreaming that up.

Correct. Which is why there was nothing stopping Randy Hogan from recreating Memorial Blvd. on the Canal.

And with a couple of exceptions, Hal Smith Restaurants pretty much blow.

Hogan continues to disappoint. I seriously don't understand his ineptitude here.

It's extremely easy to understand...he can build cheap **** and rake in the cash doing it because people will still go.

It's extremely easy to understand...he can build cheap **** and rake in the cash doing it because people will still go.

Perhaps rather than vilifying capitalists, maybe the people who set the standards should really be the ones held accountable. This is a commercial venture with intention to make money. The building it goes in is controlled by other entities. Don't blame those merely playing the game fairly. Change the restrictions and make the investor decide what is worth the investment considering the risk.

Correct. Which is why there was nothing stopping Randy Hogan from recreating Memorial Blvd. on the Canal.

And with a couple of exceptions, Hal Smith Restaurants pretty much blow.

Not...... I've been to resturants in 24 countries, and I've eaten at much worse than Charlestons and Red Rock.......and for a lot heftier price.

I just spent the last 4 days in Niagara Falls Canada, and wow was that expensive for what you get......

Perhaps rather than vilifying capitalists, maybe the people who set the standards should really be the ones held accountable. This is a commercial venture with intention to make money. The building it goes in is controlled by other entities. Don't blame those merely playing the game fairly. Change the restrictions and make the investor decide what is worth the investment considering the risk.

Do you think I would object to heightened design requirements downtown? Or OCURA/Alliance holding them to a higher standard on land relinquished to them by the public, along a canal that the public built for Hogan...etc.

I agree with everything you said. But it is sad that the era of capitalists building things of value beyond the bottom line. Seeing buildings that don the names of their builders -- the merchants that built this country, brings me great joy.

Something fundamental has changed over the years. I don't fault people for looking at cheap development and having an emotional prick when they see it. I do too.

This is exactly right Sid and the problem is Wall Street. Just look at Chesapeake here in OKC. Clearly AM did not operate the company at peak profitability, but he created a great place to work, was a great corporate citizen, and shared his wealth with everyone in the state. Thanks to shareholders (and their greed for maximum short-term profitablity) people are already losing their jobs and who know what the future holds. When is the last time you saw a new building constructed that had the owners name cast in stone? Now days we are lucky if they put their name on the building at all.

Somehow profit at all cost got confused as capitalism. Freaking left and right wing statist always looking to government to set the minimum standards. Randy Hogan should hold himself to a higher standard.

This is exactly right Sid and the problem is Wall Street. Just look at Chesapeake here in OKC. Clearly AM did not operate the company at peak profitability, but he created a great place to work, was a great corporate citizen, and shared his wealth with everyone in the state. Thanks to shareholders (and their greed for maximum short-term profitablity) people are already losing their jobs and who know what the future holds. When is the last time you saw a new building constructed that had the owners name cast in stone? Now days we are lucky if they put their name on the building at all.

Somehow profit at all cost got confused as capitalism. Freaking left and right wing statist always looking to government to set the minimum standards. Randy Hogan should hold himself to a higher standard.

There is an easy solution. Don't start public companies and invest people's money when they expect security and profit. Btw, profit drives capitalism. And by "at all costs" I assume that means as long as companies do what YOU think is best then it is okay, but maximizing profit is not. Communists tried it and it failed.

I'm greatly amused by this discussion of capitalism. This was land acquired by the city through eminent domain to take an area that was considered blighted and turn it into a vibrant commercial extension of Bricktown. Randy Hogan was sold the land at a very uncapitalistic price of $2.50 per square foot with the understanding he was to develop the area into a mix of entertainment and shops, and not just restaurants. His renderings showed a development that primarily had two- and three-story buildings. Hogan bid for this urban renewal land with the understanding they expected a higher standard than pad development. But.....

I try not to think about it Steve - it just pisses me off.

This is what Randy Hogan told the City we would get.

http://www.specialtyretail.net/issues/dec98/images/brick.jpg

The $2.50/ft. was then spent back on infrastuctre if I recall. All while dirt north of reno was going for $35+/ft.

Then all they have to do is deny the plans. Or if we are so outraged, sue for not getting what was promised. If there are solid guidelines that are legally derived at, then enforce it. Otherwise, don't be surprised when the most advantageous commercial plan is executed. I know of no reputable private company that would grant rights at a discount without an enforceable contract.

I'm greatly amused by this discussion of capitalism. This was land acquired by the city through eminent domain to take an area that was considered blighted and turn it into a vibrant commercial extension of Bricktown. Randy Hogan was sold the land at a very uncapitalistic price of $2.50 per square foot with the understanding he was to develop the area into a mix of entertainment and shops, and not just restaurants. His renderings showed a development that primarily had two- and three-story buildings. Hogan bid for this urban renewal land with the understanding they expected a higher standard than pad development. But.....

It takes more than "understandings". It takes enforceable contracts. Otherwise, no one should be surprised when the profit incentives drive the project and not a sense of public duty.

The problem is that what Hogan has built ISN'T the most profitable style of development in the long run. If he would go with the most profitable method of development we wouldn't have a problem. What Hogan has done is gone with the cheapest to build.

"You could say they got free land," - Garner Stoll (planning director at the time this project was put out for RFP).
And this, friends, is why I was amused that the word "capitalism" was being mentioned in this discussion....

The problem is that what Hogan has built ISN'T the most profitable style of development in the long run. If he would go with the most profitable method of development we wouldn't have a problem. What Hogan has done is gone with the cheapest to build.

you wrong .. but whatever ..

While none of Lower Bricktown is to write home about, this newest development really crosses the line into the absurd.

1 story plan box without any real patio right on the canal??


This area is outside the purview of any of the design review committees (which is a problem in itself) but OCURA needs to draw the line and demand better.

Someone needs to go to this meeting next week and raise an objection:

105 N. Hudson Avenue, Suite 101
Wednesday September 19, 2012
10:30 a.m.

If the choice is between grass lots and this, then what does that say about this development? If I was a developer and someone even entertained the thought that my development was even comparable to a grass lot, I would be ashamed.

Even moreso, if I was KD and putting my name on this dump of a building, I'd be ashamed to be associated with it.

I'm going to try to go.

If I can I'll try and join you.

While none of Lower Bricktown is to write home about, this newest development really crosses the line into the absurd.

1 story plan box without any real patio right on the canal??


This area is outside the purview of any of the design review committees (which is a problem in itself) but OCURA needs to draw the line and demand better.

Someone needs to go to this meeting next week and raise an objection:

105 N. Hudson Avenue, Suite 101
Wednesday September 19, 2012
10:30 a.m.


how is this builidng any different than the earls/marble slab building

how is this builidng any different than the earls/marble slab building

It's not and I think that is the point.

The Earl's / Marble Slab building is certainly not very good, but it actually has 20 outdoor tables up on a terrace. It was also wedged in to fit between the theater and the canal.

Even the Sonic Building has a nice terrace and plaza facing the canal.

This building looks worse than most the generic tilt-up crap you see on NW Expressway and Memorial road with virtually no patio or any type of interaction with the canal. And it's in a prime spot that is more or less at canal level with plenty of room to building something decent.


AND it happens not yet to be built. So, it's a bigger issue because there is time to do something about it.

Even moreso, if I was KD and putting my name on this dump of a building, I'd be ashamed to be associated with it.

Good point. I doubt he really thinks about it, though.

Maybe if people write KD about their thoughts and feelings they can get him on their side.

This building looks worse than most the generic tilt-up crap you see on NW Expressway and Memorial road with virtually no patio or any type of interaction with the canal. And it's in a prime spot that is more or less at canal level with plenty of room to building something decent.


This. When I saw the rendering, I was immediately reminded of the 'Marketplace' building on the SW corner of 33rd and Broadway in Edmond.

Can someone point out the canal to Mr. Hogan? I am pretty sure he is unaware it's there.

Good point. I doubt he really thinks about it, though.

Maybe if people write KD about their thoughts and feelings they can get him on their side.


Anyone have an email address that we could use to reach KD's people?

Best way to reach important people these days is Twitter, it's a guaranteed direct conduit to them.

@KDTrey5

I already got the ball rolling with 2 tweets!

Can someone point out the canal to Mr. Hogan? I am pretty sure he is unaware it's there.

:lol2:

I love the idea of going right at the person with the name on the door. If you put your name on a pile of crap don't be surprised if someone tries to flush it. I'll laugh if this make ESPNews as one of those quirky side stories.

What's particularly appalling about this project is there is now a decent critical mass in Bricktown and even Lower BT, that should make it easier to build and lease BETTER buildings and get more rent for them.

So why is Hogan going backwards here? You know he's made tons of money off the existing buildings because the condos all sold in record time and everything else seems to be completely leased.

Why is he choosing to build something cheaper with less features than what is already there and thriving??

The obvious answer: Because the area has enough demand that tenants will pay decent rent for crappy buildings; Hogan is just trying to maximize profit without any concern about how his heavily subsidized properties impact the broader community.

Best way to reach important people these days is Twitter, it's a guaranteed direct conduit to them.

@KDTrey5

I already got the ball rolling with 2 tweets!

KD doesn't have a dime invested in this......................he's just selling his name. Go after HSG.

KD doesn't have a dime invested in this......................he's just selling his name. Go after HSG.

Are you saying the name "Kevin Durant" doesn't have any value? Why would HSG put a worthless name on their restaurant?

You're invested when your name is on a business, or when the business pays to use your name. KD is in this big time.

Why do athletes follow such bad advice?

Are you saying the name "Kevin Durant" doesn't have any value? Why would HSG put a worthless name on their restaurant?

I will quote him - 'Ive been wanting something like this for awhile, I didn't have to pay anything and I'll have my name on a restraunt'. KD has nothing other than his name vested, he's out zero dollars.

How this goes will not effect his marketability on a national scale whatsoever......

I will quote him 'Ive been wanting something like this for awhile, I didn't have to pay anything and I'll have my name on a restraunt'. KD has nothing other than his name vested, he's out zero dollars.

How this goes will not effect his marketability on a national scale whatsoever......

Maybe KD should care what his name is on.

He has been directly involved though, just not financially. He has had input on many things including the menu. While this doesn't have anything to do with the physical design of the building, it's cool to know that he is actually involved with the process and excited to have it open.

I will quote him - 'Ive been wanting something like this for awhile, I didn't have to pay anything and I'll have my name on a restraunt'. KD has nothing other than his name vested, he's out zero dollars.

How this goes will not effect his marketability on a national scale whatsoever......

One word: Ego. If he cares enough about having his name on a restaurant than he will care enough when people start bad mouthing the design of the building his name is on. He can have his name put on any building or restaurant in the city.

Its kind of hard for HSG to ignore the guy whose name is on the building. He won't be as enthusiastic about marketing the restaurant.

I think the restraunt design looks pretty good. I'd bet a majority of Oklahomans would agree. This is only controversial to a very small segment of the population. I'd also bet dollars to donuts Kevin Durant fans don't give a fiddlers fart about the design of the building sporting his name.

I'm looking forward to the restaurant's opening.

Yeah, while I don't like the design (for where it is, not necessarily what it is), the average Oklahoman will be very excited to see this. I don't think this will, nor do I think it should, deminish Durant's immage.

One word: Ego. If he cares enough about having his name on a restaurant than he will care enough when people start bad mouthing the design of the building his name is on. He can have his name put on any building or restaurant in the city.

Its kind of hard for HSG to ignore the guy whose name is on the building. He won't be as enthusiastic about marketing the restaurant.

I had hoped that KD would not be exposed to the somewhat rare form of mental illness experienced by some of our resident urbanists, but it looks like he will be exposed. I hope he just says WTF to the wind and goes on about his business.

I had hoped that KD would not be exposed to the somewhat rare form of mental illness experienced by some of our resident urbanists, but it looks like he will be exposed. I hope he just says WTF to the wind and goes on about his business.

This is our urban area were talking about. I am not about to give up on it. You can keep your surburbia out of the heart of OKC.

At least people living in the city will be able to afford the medication to treat their "mental illness" since their not using all their money toward gas. Lol

One word: Ego. If he cares enough about having his name on a restaurant than he will care enough when people start bad mouthing the design of the building his name is on. He can have his name put on any building or restaurant in the city.

Its kind of hard for HSG to ignore the guy whose name is on the building. He won't be as enthusiastic about marketing the restaurant.

They will talk about two things, and the building is not one of them. 1). The memorabilia inside and 2) the food.

I had hoped that KD would not be exposed to the somewhat rare form of mental illness experienced by some of our resident urbanists, but it looks like he will be exposed. I hope he just says WTF to the wind and goes on about his business.

I don't think KD reads or even knows that OKCTALK even exists or about any urbanistic opinions......I also heard him say in an interview one time that he grew up around lots of buildings and liked the wide open spaces and low key atmosphere of OKC. It's a great place to play basketball, he said.

Developer will seek OK of plan for site in Oklahoma City's Lower Bricktown: early promises compared to actual development | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/developer-will-seek-ok-of-plan-for-site-in-oklahoma-citys-lower-bricktown-early-promises-compared-to-actual-development/article/3710685)

Another good article by Steve on this topic.

When asked Monday why he abandoned previous plans for the Kevin Durant restaurant site that called for a two-story building, Hogan responded that parking in the area already is tight, and a larger building would require structured parking. He said the construction of a new boulevard in the old Interstate 40 alignment south of Lower Bricktown will provide space for some additional spaces — but not enough to allow for denser development.

Read more: Developer will seek OK of plan for site in Oklahoma City's Lower Bricktown: early promises compared to actual development | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/developer-will-seek-ok-of-plan-for-site-in-oklahoma-citys-lower-bricktown-early-promises-compared-to-actual-development/article/3710685#ixzz26peDLwfD)

Oh brother, there is tons of directly adjacent parking with more to come.

The important thing to note is that he says more density would be possible with structured parking, though he doesn't indicate much interest in going there. I've thought for years that structured parking would fix most of the perceived inadequacies of LB. I don't even think Randy would have to come as much out-of-pocket as you might think, as I'm certain TIF would assist in funding . We've seen examples of this with Legacy and Level.

He is correct in saying that the current surface parking is routinely maxed. It happens several times a week, but in part because regular Bricktown visitors (and even, unfortunately, employees) utilize LB's free parking while visiting the rest of Bricktown. It's also always maxed on game and large event (concert, etc.) nights.

Personally I think it's fine and appropriate for OCURA and others to look closely at the design of this restaurant - and I have a personal interest in hoping it eventually relates more to the canal - but I think the more important issue is encouraging him to explore structured parking to allow for increased density and even more development.

I think there is only one more pad site left for Hogan to develop, so I think Lower BT is pretty much finished now.

The important thing to note is that he says more density would be possible with structured parking, though he doesn't indicate much interest in going there. I've thought for years that structured parking would fix most of the perceived inadequacies of LB. I don't even think Randy would have to come as much out-of-pocket as you might think, as I'm certain TIF would assist in funding . We've seen examples of this with Legacy and Level.

I agree. He seems to be blowing smoke and maybe setting up for another hand out. As in, "well, this is the best I can do, unless you want to put millions more into my property for structured parking". Problem is, why put more money into his property if he is just going to squander the gift?

I also think he should make the parking in lower bricktown paid with validation from any Bricktown establishment or at least any lower bricktown establishment. This could mitigate the fact that the parking lot itself has become a hang out for many people who are not even patronizing any of the area businesses. It would create more parking for the actual businesses without adding spaces and make the district as a whole a more enjoyable area to visit.

He is correct in saying that the current surface parking is routinely maxed. It happens several times a week, but in part because regular Bricktown visitors (and even, unfortunately, employees) utilize LB's free parking while visiting the rest of Bricktown. It's also always maxed on game and large event (concert, etc.) nights.

If only there was a way to generate a customer base who doesn't have to bring a car with them.

On a side note, I was in Wendy's yesterday and I watched a person park their car and go into the bank next door. They came out, got in their car, backed out, drove to the connecting Wendy's lot, parked, and came into Wendy's. They moved their car a grand total of 9 parking spaces just so they could go from parking at the front door of the bank to the front door of Wendy's.

People who use Edmond as a source for all their problems sound like insecure little babies. Get over yourselves.

I don't think anyone has said Edmond was the source of their problems. But there is a clear mentality from the suburbs that development needs close parking; Edmond just makes a nice shorthand (I currently live there).

Anecdotally, I know the owner of one Bricktown business who can identify if a customer is from Edmond based on whether or not they complain about having to pay for parking. He is also from Edmond.

The perceived needs of commuters should not dictate development in the urban core. I don't think that makes me sound line an insecure little baby.