No it isn't. There are some things you don't demo. This is one.

What's happening here in okc is very unique and goes way beyond normal "higher and better use" in other cities. Not saving a site like this is practically going out of your way to tear down any remaining evidence of what OKC used to be.

This.

Very few other cities would be having a legitimate preservation issue over this. I can't think of any, but maybe the Feds have done something like this in Detroit.

This is endemic, wanton destruction and disregard of OKC's potential. This is why OKC will end up never developing a special vibe, although I hope I'm wrong.

I'm mostly disturbed by how many people actually think this could be demo'd, which really can't happen. Right?

The reality is that with the price the want (maybe need) to get from this property. Keeping/reusing the existing buildings is very likely not economically feasible

This is also a suburban site layout.

A massive multi story mixed use project of resedential and commercial with structures parking would be a much better fit in midtown and would be a better result for Okc

It would be one thing if OKC didn't have so much surface parking and vacant land in its core. If the core was completely built out, then the higher and better use argument could come into play. As is, there is no reason to continue tearing down so much historic urban fabric. I can think of 5+ lots in the immediate Midtown area that would be a better fit for a mixed-use development and would not require tearing down anything significant.

I'd recommend looking at the Downtown Development Framework for this site, and see that what is presently on the site fits the plan better than high-intensity development. The Planning Commission and the City Council adopted this as their guide to downtown development... so this will be a good test of the document, as well as the commitment of our elected officials.

https://www.okc.gov/planning/planning_library/DDF_FinalDraft.pdf

I'd agree that high-intensity is not what is needed there but what is currently there doesn't really fit into what the document calls general urban either.

It's possible that I am not understanding what is meant by general urban.

The matrix provided in the document:

http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/development-buildings/11699d1445981317-villa-teresa-matrix.jpg

The matrix provided in the document:


Well, right now it's a vacant school, so yeah, it's not the best use. I was referring more to the form of the buildings.

Look at the matrix on page 19 which refers to the Future Development Plan section of the DDF. This location would fall in to what is referred to as Low Density Flex.

Low Density Flex:
Development can flex between residential or commercial, integrates with existing low story structures.
Any residential or commercial use, single use or mixed use
2-3 stories

AH, when I was looking at the map I kept thinking it was actually in the triangle area to the southeast (Midtown Plaza) labeled as Medium Density Flex.

Am I correct that if we were able to preserve plot #8 we'd be happy?

The reality is that with the price the want (maybe need) to get from this property. Keeping/reusing the existing buildings is very likely not economically feasible

This is also a suburban site layout.

A massive multi story mixed use project of resedential and commercial with structures parking would be a much better fit in midtown and would be a better result for Okc

How is it suburban? Don't you like that?

Have you seen a structural report?

Why couldn't the complex be "resedential"

What is the right fit for "Midtown," a historic district after all?

What was the last historic bldg you stood up for? Ever?

Let's infill the rest of the vacant lots in Midtown and then have a conversation about demolishing historic properties.

Potential buyers of Villa Teresa decline to detail their plans for former school property | News OK (http://newsok.com/potential-buyers-of-villa-teresa-decline-to-detail-their-plans-for-former-school-property/article/5456434)

It's a historic district and Nelson himself has been a big beneficiary of another of Midtown's unique historic spaces.

The reality is that with the price the want (maybe need) to get from this property. Keeping/reusing the existing buildings is very likely not economically feasible

This is also a suburban site layout.

A massive multi story mixed use project of resedential and commercial with structures parking would be a much better fit in midtown and would be a better result for Okc

I think that's exactly what's going on here. I'm no expert about any of it, but if the sisters are depending on the revenue from this sale for their own support, surely the ones who invested the time *in* the buildings that are so historic are *at least* as important as the buildings themselves.

Let's infill the rest of the vacant lots in Midtown and then have a conversation about demolishing historic properties.

This. If Midtown was built out this might be a little more understandable, but there are so many vacant lots where they could build housing and retail.

^^^^

^Can you list the vacant lots in midtown that aren't already owned by someone who has plans for them down the line? I'm not sure that there are a lot of those left anymore...

It's a historic district and Nelson himself has been a big beneficiary of another of Midtown's unique historic spaces.

Not that I know him personally, but needlessly tearing down historical structures is not Elliot's MO. Its a bit puzzling to me that they are about to start now. It feels the whole "not ruling out demo" thing is a CYA move more than anything, most likely that they don't have anything 100% firm.

The following is only about the possible development of this property. Not about the possible demo (I will leave that to others)

I wanted to clear up a couple of things that have been presented that are either not accurate or are lacking context.

1 Steve today said villa Teresa "ajoins the historic HH and Mesta park neighborhoods". This is simple not true.

Mesta doesn't start until the north have of the block between 16th and 15th

And HH ends on north half of the 13th 14th block. The south have of that block fronting 13th is a commercial corridor.

So HH is not ajoin this property. Second. Less then 1/6 of the Vila property fronts 13tg. The remainder fronts Dewey (actually adjoining a 240 unit apt project the edge along with commercial that HH prostrated) or classen dr which is commercial (some multi story ). Or is directly south of an under construction 4 story multi family building (that HH also protested)

In the development framework this area is clearly not coded correctly (likely because of the existing Vila Theresa). On this block approved recently are 4 story multi family and 4 story office and it is directly ajoins multi story large scale housing.

Now I get the argument that we should keep Vila But don't let anyone fool you in to thinking that if it is torn down that only 2 story low density is approiote

In the development framework this area is clearly not coded correctly (likely because of the existing Vila Theresa). On this block approved recently are 4 story multi family and 4 story office and it is directly ajoins multi story large scale housing.

Now I get the argument that we should keep Vila But don't let anyone fool you in to thinking that if it is torn down that only 2 story low density is approiote

This might be the only thing we agree on. When I was looking at the framework, I thought it was incorrectly coded based on what is surrounding it. I don't believe the low density flex is appropriate for that area.

The following is only about the possible development of this property. Not about the possible demo (I will leave that to others)

I wanted to clear up a couple of things that have been presented that are either not accurate or are lacking context.

1 Steve today said villa Teresa "ajoins the historic HH and Mesta park neighborhoods". This is simple not true.

Mesta doesn't start until the north have of the block between 16th and 15th

And HH ends on north half of the 13th 14th block. The south have of that block fronting 13th is a commercial corridor.

So HH is not ajoin this property. Second. Less then 1/6 of the Vila property fronts 13tg. The remainder fronts Dewey (actually adjoining a 240 unit apt project the edge along with commercial that HH prostrated) or classen dr which is commercial (some multi story ). Or is directly south of an under construction 4 story multi family building (that HH also protested)

In the development framework this area is clearly not coded correctly (likely because of the existing Vila Theresa). On this block approved recently are 4 story multi family and 4 story office and it is directly ajoins multi story large scale housing.

Now I get the argument that we should keep Vila But don't let anyone fool you in to thinking that if it is torn down that only 2 story low density is approiote

Hope they didn't go too deep ! That darn auto-correct....lol

Alright…Are they buying just lots 7 and 8, or are they buying lots 7 through 14?

At the end of the day, this block is NEVER going to be super dense because of where the church is and how it sits on the lot.

If lots 9 and 10 are purchased in conjunction they can just rezone the lots so that they're all part of one big parcel and build right up next to the historic structure.

Elliott Nelson posted this on social media:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSbplsaVAAE-b2R.jpg

Lackmeyer is standing by his tweet. This is interesting.

Up is down.

A Closer Look at Elliott Nelson's Letter on Villa Teresa | News OK (http://newsok.com/a-closer-look-at-elliott-nelsons-letter-on-villa-teresa/article/5456801)

Yea steve is being pretty aggressive on this.

I don't want to see the buildings torn down so I am glad he is doing this.

would love to see another school take over the space.

If that school wanted it so badly and had the money to buy it, why didn't they step up and do it?

That property has been for sale for quite a while.

^Can you list the vacant lots in midtown that aren't already owned by someone who has plans for them down the line? I'm not sure that there are a lot of those left anymore...

That's what I want to know as well. How many of those vacant lots are for sale? Developers can't infill if they can't obtain the property. Villa Teresa is for sale, thus the opportunity to develop in a booming neighborhood. I'm sure the developers would much rather buy a vacant lot to develop if they could.

Considering it would save them the step of demolishing.

I toured these buildings a couple years ago. Some are so-so. There's only 1 or two that I would consider valuable. Of course we all like to get wiggy over anything that was build before the 70's on this forum. But not every abandoned old brick building with a back story is a diamond in the rough.

There is no way the school had the money to do this project.

This is from a friend who is close to the school who seriously doubts the school has the money or support to pull off the purchase and move to VT:


The Academy is the result of a recent merger of two very small suburban schools, Providence Hall and Veritas. Unlike Catholic schools, the Academy lacks the backing of a church. Some original founding families have left after battles over curriculum and direction. A move to Villa Teresa would require the sale of all three suburban campuses, and retaining all of their suburban students.

?Zero plans?: Villa Teresa buyer says it will immediately relist property | The Journal Record (http://journalrecord.com/2015/10/30/zero-plans-villa-teresa-buyer-says-it-will-immediately-relist-property-real-estate/)

I think bad PR worked.

I think a newly minted, self appointed, narcissistic bully worked. The outcome will be the same. The dollars say so. That is very sad. Journalism has gone terribly awry. Lackluster is off the reading list.

I think it's a positive to head off an idea to demo Villa Teresa.

I think it's a positive to head off an idea to demo Villa Teresa.

No. This will probably be sold to someone who has absolutely no intentions of adaptive reuse as a result of this episode. I actually believe Nelson in this matter. I suspect some of the buildings would have been reused and some demo'd. He has a very solid record of reusing and rehabbing historic buildings.

Nothing has been "saved" here. Just a lot of saber rattling.

I disagree entirely. The ends don't justify the means. Lackluster has been unfairly throwing his weight around for some time. Absolutely no one seems to have violated a law and the property has no new owner. Making an offer to purchase is no crime. The owner set the price, and therefore dictates the financials. To castigate an offerer before the deal is done and then pillory them for not talking to him at any point they decided it was imprudent is outragous. How many times has he trotted out the line "These deals take time. I can't talk about it yet."? He endangered many innocent people's jobs as a result. Someone asked "When do we start boycotting McNellies, Fasslers, Dust Bowl, etc". He denied asking for that, but it didn't keep him from making derogatory statements anyway. I'm done.

No. This will probably be sold to someone who has absolutely no intentions of adaptive reuse as a result of this episode. I actually believe Nelson in this matter. I suspect some of the buildings would have been reused and some demo'd. He has a very solid record of reusing and rehabbing historic buildings.

Nothing has been "saved" here. Just a lot of saber rattling.

Elliott wanted to do hotel. He ended up not liking how a hotel would have to look on that site. I'm not privy to those details nor can I see anything glaringly wrong with Villa Teresa, but I too respect Elliott.

It seemed Elliott just backed out of a deal that went forward anyway.

LOL, it just amazes me how some here would rather this end up wrong than support anything Steve says.

‘Zero plans’: Villa Teresa buyer says it will immediately relist property
By: Molly M. Fleming The Journal Record October 30, 2015

OKLAHOMA CITY – A local developer has purchased a former Catholic school in Midtown.

The Ross Group Construction Corp., which has had an Oklahoma City office since 1998, purchased Villa Teresa for $4.75 million, said Steve Reeser, the Keller Williams Edmond broker who handled the transaction.

The Ross Group President Warren Ross said the company will immediately relist the property, since it has no immediate plans for it.

“We’re going to take the time and do (with it) what we think is right, but if someone wants to move faster, they are more than welcome to buy the property and do that,” Ross said.

The multi-building facility sits on 3.5 acres. The oldest building dates back to 1917, when it was originally built as a house. The Carmelite Sisters of Saint Theresa of Infant Jesus purchased it in 1933 and then began to buy other nearby homes to create what would eventually become the campus. A school building was erected in 1955. There is also a pool on the land. The school closed in 2012.

Reeser said none of the buildings are on the National Register of Historic Places.

“It wasn’t that much of a benefit for (the sisters) to put it on the National Register,” he said. “But if someone wanted to, they could.”

Ross said low oil prices are keeping the group from acting on the property.

“We think there is some value in the market with oil prices being down,” he said. “But as far as developing it, it would be premature based on the current price of oil.”

He said other media reports of the buyer demolishing the structures and building an apartment complex were about discussions held before The Ross Group was involved, and even before Elliot Nelson and Casey Stowe were involved. Nelson and Stowe ended their involvement with the project Tuesday.

“We have zero plans for the property right now,” he said. “We have a long history of redeveloping property in Oklahoma City. We have a long history of redeveloping property in Tulsa. It’s always a reuse of the property in some capacity. We want to take our time. Let everything calm down. There are some good buildings there.”

Now, we'll see if this school steps and buys it, since the property is re-listed.

What is the price increase from the relistin?

What is the price increase from the relistin?

It was originally listed at $5.4 million and was just sold for $4.75 million.

Not sure what Ross is asking for it now.

Do you think the price of oil really killed the deal or was it the bad publicity?

I think an urban bed and breakfast would be cool for the main house on this property. Do we even have an urban B & B in OKC?

I think an urban bed and breakfast would be cool for the main house on this property. Do we even have an urban B & B in OKC?

The Grandison Inn appears to still exist off 12th and Shartel
The Grandison Inn, a romantic Victorian Bed and Breakfast in Oklahoma City (http://www.grandisoninn.com/)

Hey, thats very nice...thx Kevin!

I think an urban bed and breakfast would be cool for the main house on this property. Do we even have an urban B & B in OKC?

What a great idea! Someone do this, please! I have $100 I can invest!

Do you think the price of oil really killed the deal or was it the bad publicity?

low oil prices sure don't seem to be stopping other developers. it seems like a rather convenient excuse, though.

This property is priceless and must be preserved. Remember, there are men in this town who could pay cash for this and it be a rounding error come tax time.
The long discussed museum of Oklahoma City history?

I think they should do an OKC hostel in one bldg, a coeorking business incubator in another bldg, and a bed and breakfast in a third. Etc. Find small but active uses for each. This could be a very vibrant campus. A historic quad right on the streetcar, surrounded by mixed-use. Use TIF and historic and new markets tax credits and maybe work with an economic development agency to connect coworking tenants to micro loans and VC.

There are some great resources that this project could uniquely leverage to create furthermore long term real estate value. Villa Teresa could be a really special asset that makes Midtown unique. You throw money down the drain by tearing down something like this.

LOL, it just amazes me how some here would rather this end up wrong than support anything Steve says.

Be specific. What are you saying?

I think they should do an OKC hostel in one bldg, a coeorking business incubator in another bldg, and a bed and breakfast in a third. Etc. Find small but active uses for each. This could be a very vibrant campus. A historic quad right on the streetcar, surrounded by mixed-use. Use TIF and historic and new markets tax credits and maybe work with an economic development agency to connect coworking tenants to micro loans and VC.

There are some great resources that this project could uniquely leverage to create furthermore long term real estate value. Villa Teresa could be a really special asset that makes Midtown unique. You throw money down the drain by tearing down something like this.

Would love multiple hostels in OKC, but the first one really needs to be in Bricktown, unless it's going to happen 10 years from now. I mean, a hostel down there would have a chance of having full occupancy 365 days a year simply by selling $10-$15 beds to people are absolutely trashed and don't want to drive home, let alone young/single/hostel-type travelers.

Be specific. What are you saying?

What I said was very plain. I see no need for further explanation.

Would love multiple hostels in OKC, but the first one really needs to be in Bricktown, unless it's going to happen 10 years from now. I mean, a hostel down there would have a chance of having full occupancy 365 days a year simply by selling $10-$15 beds to people are absolutely trashed and don't want to drive home, let alone young/single/hostel-type travelers.

Bricktown is not at all the kind of scene for most hostels. Besides I don't think Bricktown would want to endanger the family friendly vibe they have with a bunch of hipster student troubadours. And try $30-35 a night actually.

Film Row would be a great place for a hostel.

I second that, but they tend to work best when integrated into larger complexes or campuses of "innovation." There needs to be a wraparound component to make it work in a city that isn't already a travel hotspot..

Not saying Villa Teresa is the only place it could work but it is the best opportunity currently available. VT will have the right mixed use surroundings, nearby institutions w hotel needs, other nearby options that serve totally different niches (boutique hotel), excellent bar mix, primo transit access, and walking distance to Plaza (where most hostel-stayers will want to go).

OKC also has a huge need for a coworking incubator. These are huge economic development engines in similar cities. Instead we are paying off oil companies and Boeing - exactly the strategy that we like to think MAPS replaced.

These more social, open uses are perfect for these awkwardly-sized buildings that can't be easily carved into traditional suites.