Retail shining crew forming for Interstate 240, south Oklahoma City loop | News OK (http://newsok.com/retail-shining-crew-forming-for-interstate-240-south-oklahoma-city-loop/article/3654254)

Why do they think it's lost it's reatil luster? I don't know of any blank areas of nothingness there....

There are a couple of holes but the most glaring is Crossroads Mall with most of its anchors headed south to Moore, but as far as the rest of it goes, I agree with you bombermwc

Why do they think it's lost it's reatil luster? I don't know of any blank areas of nothingness there....

Because it used to be the southside's premier retail corridor. Now I'd say even MWC has outdone it with the town center. However, it sounds as if they hope to answer sprawl with more sprawl. Yaaayyy planning

There are a couple of holes but the most glaring is Crossroads Mall with most of its anchors headed south to Moore, but as far as the rest of it goes, I agree with you bombermwc

But that's not really accurate, except for JCP.
Dillard's dinna go south to Moore, nor did Macy's.
Nor did the defunct Steve/Barry's that had been in the long ago defunct Monkey Ward space.

Because it used to be the southside's premier retail corridor. Now I'd say even MWC has outdone it with the town center. However, it sounds as if they hope to answer sprawl with more sprawl. Yaaayyy planning

Wrong, Spartan. The "sprawl" is already there and they are hoping to reinvigorate that area. They aren't planning any developments further out to contribute to sprawl. Did you note that they are working with the ULI? You have no idea what they are planning and are already panning it. Would you prefer that the area become a wasteland? Any freeway is part of a face of OKC whether it's urban or not and it needs to both look and be successful.

I honestly have never been east of Post Rd. on I-240. Is that where the problem lies or is it everything west of Post Rd.(in which I do not see much of a problem)?

But that's not really accurate, except for JCP.
Dillard's dinna go south to Moore, nor did Macy's.
Nor did the defunct Steve/Barry's that had been in the long ago defunct Monkey Ward space.
You are correct, but the fact remains, the anchors left at once you lose anchors many of the smaller stores cant survive either...they depend on the foot traffic that the anchors bring

The development along I-240 lost quite a bit of steam (what didn't) with the economic meltdown. The 240 Penn Plaza was going to expand to the immediate west, and there was also talk of Home Depot relocating (due to the interchange rebuild) about three miles west to the Walnut Creek plaza, but all those things more or less fizzled. The interchange rebuild, last I heard, was altered such that HD no longer needs to move, but I've heard nothing new about Penn Plaza expanding.

Hobby Lobby's entrance into Walnut Creek has perked up that center more than I expected, but there are still plenty of unoccupied spaces in that mall. I'm not at all convince Conn's is long for the OKC market, esp. given they've already closed their Edmond location and I've heard some folks have been burned by their limited- or no-returns policy. Can't vouch for that either way, as I've never really shopped there.

The problem for I-240 redevelopment is, IMHO, the stretch that starts approximately a half-mile west of Penn and extends to May on the south side of the expressway. That apartment complex was a rough area back when my wife lived there back in her single days, and it seems rare to go a week without hearing about some sort of criminal activity. Same goes for that nasty little hotel just east of May behind the out-of-business gas station. The abandoned Skaggs/Albertsons on the NE corner of that intersection is already a hard sell, and the strip mall that existed to its south and east was converted to storage facilities about two years ago.

Crossroads is an intractable problem, unfortunately, as we've seen nothing to indicate the new owners are really doing anything with the property. The I-240 interchange rebuild, over the long haul, also casts a shadow over what can be done around that movie theater and the Texas RoadHouse that sits on the outparcels just east of the hotels. Best Buy has moved out of their big location, and I can't see it becoming retail again anytime soon.

I have a feeling OKC and the S. OKC Chamber missed a chance to manage the 240 corridor by not aggressively seeking out the same kinds of incentives Moore did for its shops, and the rest, as they say, is history. I certainly won't throw dirt on the area, but I also think it will take some creative effort to get interest in the area circulating again. I certainly hope they're successful.

You are correct, but the fact remains, the anchors left at once you lose anchors many of the smaller stores cant survive either...they depend on the foot traffic that the anchors bring


I don't know how CR mall shoppes do it, but many there in 07 and before continue to go on without anchors bringing foot traffic. The anchors have been gone a few years now and somehow enough folks still come to help the small guys rock along. Some of those have left as well but others seem to keep on plugging. I don't know if they have such strong following, or if there are that many people who go there purely from habit, but folk still go. I used to be among them but not so much these days.

I think some of those stores might be locked in to leases and will probably move out as leases expire, unless something turns around pretty quick.

SoonerDave interesting you mention the apartments. I heard a rumor a while back that someone wanted to raze them and put in more shopping all along that area. No idea how true that might be.

Crossroads Mall reminds me of Six Flags Mall in Arlington... Just an absolute disaster. Terrible and no idea what might make it better.

It most certainly isnt a backroad, thousands of people use that for a quicker drive to the Norman area and to Dallas-Ft Worth

I want to believe that the city cares about putting lots of retail here on southside (I-240), but I won't believe it until I see it.

With two dorks buying Crossroads Mall, just to twiddle their thumbs like amateurs, I no longer believe anything I hear.

Actions speak louder than words.

I want to believe that the city cares about putting lots of retail here on southside (I-240), but I won't believe it until I see it.

With two dorks buying Crossroads Mall, just to twiddle their thumbs like amateurs, I no longer believe anything I hear.

Actions speak louder than words.

An update.

http://newsok.com/urban-land-institute-businesses-city-aim-to-revamp-i-240-in-south-oklahoma-city/article/3656369

As you can see, while the city planning department is involved it is not really a "city" project so I'm not sure what you're saying about if the "city" cares.

http://newsok.com/urban-land-institute-businesses-city-aim-to-revamp-i-240-in-south-oklahoma-city/article/3656369
Humphreys raises question

That prompted former Oklahoma City mayor and developer Kirk Humphreys to ask Eitler from the audience what could be done about aggressive retail recruitment by neighboring municipalities Midwest City and Moore “throwing money at retailers, giving them money they can't refuse.”

Humphreys said, “It's almost like the free enterprise system is competing with the governments. It's pretty blatant. I don't think a nuclear strike is an option.”

Moore has only passed 4 sales tax incentive packages.

Shops at Moore received one which has now expired. I believe the payout was about 1/2 of the maximum. And Shops at Moore provided a pretty nice power center to replace a rather blighted 1/2 mile on I-35.

Target only opened 21 stores in 2011 and one was in Moore only because of the incentive. If the incentive had not been offered there were plenty of other places in the United States that were offering far better packages just to get jobs.

The Imax received a package.

The most recent is for Dick's which will only be realized if there is a store built.

If you include what was paid to Shops at Moore plus the maximum of the other 3 it sums to about $8 Million or a little less.

Oklahoma City spent $3.9 Million on infrastructure and gave a $5.5 Million sales tax package to the Outlet Mall project alone. As stated in the article the Bass Pro incentive was about $17 Million.

nm double post

It was tax incentives AND the fact that the stores wanted to build closer to where the money was. If OKC offered the same amount of tax incentives as Moore the retail shops would have still choose Moore or not built at all.

The city is also competing with itself with all its efforts to revitalize the urban core. So it kind of has two competing ideas going on at the same time.


It most certainly isnt a backroad, thousands of people use that for a quicker drive to the Norman area and to Dallas-Ft Worth
Yeah, I wonder how big a difference the new I-40 and boulevard will make when everything is completed.

Let's not forget that what happened with Bass Pro was reprehensible.

Let's not forget that what happened with Bass Pro was reprehensible.

Yes let's not forget about Bass Pro. It was a great investment for OKC. Not only have they paid back the cost of the building but we still own it and Bass Pro continues to lease it, not to mention the million dollars a year that the city makes off of sales tax generated by bass pro. Some one in an earlier post mentioned the city stepping up. I this case they did and it is still paying off big time. I am beginning to think that you and never enthusiastic about anything at all.

An update.

http://newsok.com/urban-land-institute-businesses-city-aim-to-revamp-i-240-in-south-oklahoma-city/article/3656369

As you can see, while the city planning department is involved it is not really a "city" project so I'm not sure what you're saying about if the "city" cares.

The planning department can help in changing zoning rules. They should be contacted and involved in all major developments private or public.

Yes let's not forget about Bass Pro. It was a great investment for OKC. Not only have they paid back the cost of the building but we still own it and Bass Pro continues to lease it, not to mention the million dollars a year that the city makes off of sales tax generated by bass pro. Some one in an earlier post mentioned the city stepping up. I this case they did and it is still paying off big time. I am beginning to think that you and never enthusiastic about anything at all.
Do you have any links on that? The last I read on it (several years ago now) indicated otherwise. It was considered a failure to the extent that it would be cited by those opposed to their communities offering similar incentives to bring Bass Pro. It is fairly well documented that Bass Pro over promises and under delivers in community after community. Part of the OKC deal:

"The PGAV study, which was approved by the city council unanimously in November 2001, promised the city up to 920 new jobs..."
Along with the financial promises made, how many employees does the OKC Bass Pro have? In explaining away the missed projections, Bass Pro used excuses like it being a small store, not having the amenities needed etc. Weren't those factors taken into consideration when the projections were made? Before it opened, Bass Pro made several changes to the building adding to the cost (and rent) yet they still missed projections by multi-millions. Like I said, maybe it turned around and what you said may now be true. I did a google search for updated info and dug 10 pages deep in various searches but didn't come up with anything. Any help would be appreciated.

Yes let's not forget about Bass Pro. It was a great investment for OKC. Not only have they paid back the cost of the building but we still own it and Bass Pro continues to lease it, not to mention the million dollars a year that the city makes off of sales tax generated by bass pro. Some one in an earlier post mentioned the city stepping up. I this case they did and it is still paying off big time. I am beginning to think that you and never enthusiastic about anything at all.

Well it's hard to be enthusiastic when City Hall has an army of ants who will fabricate an alternative version of history every time City Hall screws up, which is getting pretty regular. Bass Pro has not paid back the $17 million. The terms of the deal were in fact altered, resulting in lower rent for Bass Pro--despite that they've been successful in the Central Oklahoma market. They were also an urban planning disaster, Bass Pro only wanted to be as close to the I-40/I-35 interchange as possible, and cared nothing about Bricktown, which is incredibly evident if you look at that site now. It stands as one of downtown's biggest embarrassments.

Not to mention that the deal was probably illegal, did get the city tied up in significant litigation, made the city look bad, and alienated a competing developer who would have done something much more appropriate with that site. The court of public opinion in this city vilified the fellow because he had an ethnic name and wasn't bringing a hillbilly supercenter.

More recent attempts at retail economic development have in fact been extremely successful, to date at least. Here I'm referring to the outlet mall, and offering that up as a great example. The operative point there however is that at this point OKC is willing to invest in destination retail and big projects that make a difference, but will not leverage incentives for the same level of retail as Moore and MWC (ie., sorry Target).

And yes, I am going to go ahead and say "Let 240 continue to fall into disrepair." It will probably be better for the southside. Consider the alternatives--what stores are they going to throw large wads of cash at to locate on I-240, Target perhaps? I can easily see that being the first retailer they attempt to lure, which would leave a vital neighborhood anchor at SW 44th and Western completely dark with no foreseeable replacement. This at a time that the city is making significant headway on a SW 44th Street corridor plan, including installing decorative intersections at Walker, Western, and Douglass.

So if we're going to propose reviving I-240 at the expense of a potential urban comeback along SW 44th, I'm going to be very negative on that. And that is exactly how I see this attempt along I-240. And yes, I do fault the Urban Land Institute for its involvement in this idiotic endeavor, and they should know better than this.

Metro equality is becoming a problem, there is a growing disparity between north and south in OKC, and this should be addressed, as should sales tax seepage on the south side of the metro. We do not need a temporary patch, and don't need to solve the problem by exacerbating it. When I-240 came into existence, the southside's wealth concentration moved south and you saw areas between downtown and 74th begin to rapidly deteriorate. I believe in south-side revitalization, and I believe that has to happen by taking advantage of unique opportunities along 44th.

Spartan, you seem to be of the opinion that 44th has to compete against I240 and it's one or the other. That's no more true than saying Midtown has to compete with Deep Deuce. Letting one area go downhill just to build up another area makes no sense at all, especially when the area you want to abandon is as "in your face" as I240.

I agree that petty no-sum politics aren't the way to go. The difference though is that downtown is a lot more established and on a lot better footing than the south side right now.

Well it's hard to be enthusiastic when City Hall has an army of ants who will fabricate an alternative version of history every time City Hall screws up, which is getting pretty regular. Bass Pro has not paid back the $17 million. The terms of the deal were in fact altered, resulting in lower rent for Bass Pro--despite that they've been successful in the Central Oklahoma market. They were also an urban planning disaster, Bass Pro only wanted to be as close to the I-40/I-35 interchange as possible, and cared nothing about Bricktown, which is incredibly evident if you look at that site now. It stands as one of downtown's biggest embarrassments.

Not to mention that the deal was probably illegal, did get the city tied up in significant litigation, made the city look bad, and alienated a competing developer who would have done something much more appropriate with that site. The court of public opinion in this city vilified the fellow because he had an ethnic name and wasn't bringing a hillbilly supercenter.

More recent attempts at retail economic development have in fact been extremely successful, to date at least. Here I'm referring to the outlet mall, and offering that up as a great example. The operative point there however is that at this point OKC is willing to invest in destination retail and big projects that make a difference, but will not leverage incentives for the same level of retail as Moore and MWC (ie., sorry Target).

And yes, I am going to go ahead and say "Let 240 continue to fall into disrepair." It will probably be better for the southside. Consider the alternatives--what stores are they going to throw large wads of cash at to locate on I-240, Target perhaps? I can easily see that being the first retailer they attempt to lure, which would leave a vital neighborhood anchor at SW 44th and Western completely dark with no foreseeable replacement. This at a time that the city is making significant headway on a SW 44th Street corridor plan, including installing decorative intersections at Walker, Western, and Douglass.

So if we're going to propose reviving I-240 at the expense of a potential urban comeback along SW 44th, I'm going to be very negative on that. And that is exactly how I see this attempt along I-240. And yes, I do fault the Urban Land Institute for its involvement in this idiotic endeavor, and they should know better than this.

Metro equality is becoming a problem, there is a growing disparity between north and south in OKC, and this should be addressed, as should sales tax seepage on the south side of the metro. We do not need a temporary patch, and don't need to solve the problem by exacerbating it. When I-240 came into existence, the southside's wealth concentration moved south and you saw areas between downtown and 74th begin to rapidly deteriorate. I believe in south-side revitalization, and I believe that has to happen by taking advantage of unique opportunities along 44th.

I am gald to see thay you realize that you are struggling with being enthusiastic. Bass Pro is an embassasment? In who's eyes? Yours? (certainly not a suprise to anyone there) It is certainly not the tens of thousands of out of state visitors that stop there and spend there money in Oklahoma City every year. That is also a factor that impacts other local businesses. And you continue on saying that Bass Pro did not care about Bricktown and just wanted to be by the I-40/I -35 coridor. So what? No one ever said that they came her because they "cared deeply for Bricktown" It is BUSINESS. It sounds like you have a lot of negative issues about Oklahoma City that you need to deal with.

What frustrates me is this city works without knowing what the other hand is doing. The airport and city planning are trying to get a retail corridor going on the new Portland Ave east of the airport when Portland gets realigned more as a frontage road along I-44 between 104th and 54th....

Yet this city planning group working on this project has no idea of this project and is trying to get even more development on I-240 sucking away any potential interest in the other planning staff trying to get a new retail corridor going on the other side of the highway.

You are correct in that it does happen a lot with city projects. The efforts to fill the retail vacancies are primarily the effort of the South and Greater OKC Chambers. The Greater OKC Chamber focuses on economic development for the city and the South Chamber has a direct interest in seeing that portion of the city grow. Then you have property owners and commercial realtors that have a working interest in the area as well. I this case they have all joined forces to try and stimulate the area. There is one new retailer that is coming into this market and currently building the first 50,000 + store in north okc. I am wondering if they are considering one of the vacant big box stores on south I-240.

I honestly have never been east of Post Rd. on I-240. Is that where the problem lies or is it everything west of Post Rd.(in which I do not see much of a problem)?

That is what I don't understand, the City is targeting an area that ia already vibrant with retail luster. If anything they need to focus on the area along east I-240 between I-35 and Post Rd. This area has a new heart hospital, and constructing new office building which will bring some good traffic to the area.

I am gald to see thay you realize that you are struggling with being enthusiastic. Bass Pro is an embassasment? In who's eyes? Yours? (certainly not a suprise to anyone there) It is certainly not the tens of thousands of out of state visitors that stop there and spend there money in Oklahoma City every year. That is also a factor that impacts other local businesses. And you continue on saying that Bass Pro did not care about Bricktown and just wanted to be by the I-40/I -35 coridor. So what? No one ever said that they came her because they "cared deeply for Bricktown" It is BUSINESS. It sounds like you have a lot of negative issues about Oklahoma City that you need to deal with.

Unbelievable. First of all, the city regularly utilizes its right to intervene in property matters. That is also "business," the city's that is. Also, Bass Pro could attract even more of those rednecks out on the edge of town, maybe that fancy area along Memorial Road. Inappropriate in Bricktown, especially for a project that wouldn't have happened without major government backing.

What frustrates me is this city works without knowing what the other hand is doing. The airport and city planning are trying to get a retail corridor going on the new Portland Ave east of the airport when Portland gets realigned more as a frontage road along I-44 between 104th and 54th....

Yet this city planning group working on this project has no idea of this project and is trying to get even more development on I-240 sucking away any potential interest in the other planning staff trying to get a new retail corridor going on the other side of the highway.

catch, what do you base that statement on? Again we have someone saying that we should pit one development area against another one. If you want to argue about Moore vs OKC development that's a different matter. This is all in OKC and not that far apart. One area can compliment the other if done correctly.

Also, Bass Pro could attract even more of those rednecks out on the edge of town,

Spartan, that statement is a little elitist and beneath you. I'm not defending Bass Pro but that's not cool.

Unbelievable. First of all, the city regularly utilizes its right to intervene in property matters. That is also "business," the city's that is. Also, Bass Pro could attract even more of those rednecks out on the edge of town, maybe that fancy area along Memorial Road. Inappropriate in Bricktown, especially for a project that wouldn't have happened without major government backing.

Bass Pro is higher end outdoor store. The unwashed rednecks your bashing are not shopping there. They are going to Academy and Walmart because of the cheaper prices. Just because you shop at Bass Pro does not mean you live in a trailer and drive a 1985 Primer Gray Camaro.

Your Bass Pro shopper is like a shopper at Dillards or Macy's. He's not there to buy the cheap stuff. He/she is there to drop a few hundred to few thousand on new hunting, fishing or camping gear. Sure Bass Pro has a few country boys in there browsing but, most of them are window shopping and heading down to Academy or Walmart afterward. If the place had an REI logo on it you would be just fine with it.

Bass Pro is higher end outdoor store. The unwashed rednecks your bashing are not shopping there. They are going to Academy and Walmart because of the cheaper prices. Just because you shop at Bass Pro does not mean you live in a trailer and drive a 1985 Primer Gray Camaro.

Your Bass Pro shopper is like a shopper at Dillards or Macy's. He's not there to buy the cheap stuff. He/she is there to drop a few hundred to few thousand on new hunting, fishing or camping gear. Sure Bass Pro has a few country boys in there browsing but, most of them are window shopping and heading down to Academy or Walmart afterward. If the place had an REI logo on it you would be just fine with it.

Please tell me you are kidding.

Bass Pro doesn't even have a solid selection of North Face!

REI and Dick's have much higher-end products than any of the other competitors.

Spartan, that statement is a little elitist and beneath you. I'm not defending Bass Pro but that's not cool.

I used to at least respect Spartan's point of view, even though I almost always disagreed with him. But in recent days and weeks, as his remarks have spiraled down to race-baiting, elitism, and bigotry, I no longer find his posts or arguments credible or relevant.

I used to at least respect Spartan's point of view, even though I almost always disagreed with him. But in recent days and weeks, as his remarks have spiraled down to race-baiting, elitism, and bigotry, I no longer find his posts or arguments credible or relevant.

It sounds like he has some other personal issues with Bass Pro.

Please tell me you are kidding.

Bass Pro doesn't even have a solid selection of North Face!

REI and Dick's have much higher-end products than any of the other competitors.
This. Not sure what one forgone was smoking. It's not even a matter of opinion as far as quality is concerned.

I used to at least respect Spartan's point of view, even though I almost always disagreed with him. But in recent days and weeks, as his remarks have spiraled down to race-baiting, elitism, and bigotry, I no longer find his posts or arguments credible or relevant.

This.

Rednecks are a race?

You guys are putting metro in heaven.

Well I'll tell you exactly why I don't care for Bss Pro and you can't refute this as it is factually true and verifiable: nearly all of their stores are located in tier 2 or 3 (or lower) cities that are generally considered suburbs. For the few stores that are located within major metro boundaries (such as Vegas) they are surrounded by a whole lot of nothing.

Look at a map of their stores... Their strategy is to locate in small towns or suburbs within 100 miles of more major metropolitan areas. It's a great big small town attraction. Bass Pro would have been better suited for its proposed location in suburban MWC, and not the heart of our downtown. You want to be an up and coming top tier city that attracts the young creative types? Ask yourself if that monstrosity would have ever had a chance going into the heart of Austin? No freaking way. The truth of this statement and the fact that it's obviousness is lost on the general public in OKC is very telling on many levels.

Well I'll tell you exactly why I don't care for Bss Pro and you can't refute this as it is factually true and verifiable: nearly all of their stores are located in tier 2 or 3 (or lower) cities that are generally considered suburbs. For the few stores that are located within major metro boundaries (such as Vegas) they are surrounded by a whole lot of nothing.

Look at a map of their stores... Their strategy is to locate in small towns or suburbs within 100 miles of more major metropolitan areas. It's a great big small town attraction. Bass Pro would have been better suited for its proposed location in suburban MWC, and not the heart of our downtown. You want to be an up and coming top tier city that attracts the young creative types? Ask yourself if that monstrosity would have ever had a chance going into the heart of Austin? No freaking way. The truth of this statement and the fact that it's obviousness is lost on the general public in OKC is very telling on many levels.

The more I read your post, the more I agreed with it. Great post, IMO.

Well I'll tell you exactly why I don't care for Bss Pro and you can't refute this as it is factually true and verifiable: nearly all of their stores are located in tier 2 or 3 (or lower) cities that are generally considered suburbs. For the few stores that are located within major metro boundaries (such as Vegas) they are surrounded by a whole lot of nothing.

Look at a map of their stores... Their strategy is to locate in small towns or suburbs within 100 miles of more major metropolitan areas. It's a great big small town attraction. Bass Pro would have been better suited for its proposed location in suburban MWC, and not the heart of our downtown. You want to be an up and coming top tier city that attracts the young creative types? Ask yourself if that monstrosity would have ever had a chance going into the heart of Austin? No freaking way. The truth of this statement and the fact that it's obviousness is lost on the general public in OKC is very telling on many levels.

Yep, what is considered a lower/middle class suburb out here (Mesa) has the only one in the Phoenix metro area, and I'm sure half of the valley doesn't even know it's there. The one in OKC is a weekend vacation for people from small town Oklahoma. lol

So... can someone enlighten me as to why the city didn't throw out $17 million in incentives to a multi-tenant shopping center for Lower Bricktown, even if it wasn't urban in design? Did they think that Bass Pro was the only type of retail attraction that would make good 'ol "Okies" come downtown? Talk about selling yourself short...

So... can someone enlighten me as to why the city didn't throw out $17 million in incentives to a multi-tenant shopping center for Lower Bricktown, even if it wasn't urban in design? Did they think that Bass Pro was the only type of retail attraction that would make good 'ol "Okies" come downtown? Talk about selling yourself short...

I want to say it was thought to be a way to draw from not only Oklahoma but parts of other states as well, however they have been on a building spree over the past 10-15 years so really cuts down on it really being a draw more than most other big boxes (like 4x the number when the pitched the idea). What suprises me is that their pitch keeps working though there is a least one public study (http://public-accountability.org/reports/fishing_for_taxpayer_cash.pdf) indicating it does not. The price the asked Tulsa was worse, it was 24 million in subsidies built like three years later.

Well I'll tell you exactly why I don't care for Bss Pro and you can't refute this as it is factually true and verifiable: nearly all of their stores are located in tier 2 or 3 (or lower) cities that are generally considered suburbs. For the few stores that are located within major metro boundaries (such as Vegas) they are surrounded by a whole lot of nothing.

Look at a map of their stores... Their strategy is to locate in small towns or suburbs within 100 miles of more major metropolitan areas. It's a great big small town attraction. Bass Pro would have been better suited for its proposed location in suburban MWC, and not the heart of our downtown. You want to be an up and coming top tier city that attracts the young creative types? Ask yourself if that monstrosity would have ever had a chance going into the heart of Austin? No freaking way. The truth of this statement and the fact that it's obviousness is lost on the general public in OKC is very telling on many levels.

OK, Let me see if I have this correct. You don't like Bass Pro because they locate in tier 2 or 3 cities and small towns or suburbs? Located in MWC? You are correct about one thing: This statement SHOULD be lost on general public in OKC. It makes no sense. The overlooked fact is that Bass Pro is a tourist draw. Have you looked at the 1000's of cars parked in the lot everyday? Yes the tags are from all over. That equals sales tax dollars for Oklahoma City and is exactly why it does not belong in MWC. The fact is that Bass Pro is the busiest place in bricktown and more of our visitors to OKC go there than anywhere else. OK you don't like them and I can respect that however the are good for okc and bricktown. A wonderful addition.

I want to say it was thought to be a way to draw from not only Oklahoma but parts of other states as well, however they have been on a building spree over the past 10-15 years so really cuts down on it really being a draw more than most other big boxes (like 4x the number when the pitched the idea). What suprises me is that their pitch keeps working though there is a least one public study (http://public-accountability.org/reports/fishing_for_taxpayer_cash.pdf) indicating it does not. The price the asked Tulsa was worse, it was 24 million in subsidies built like three years later.

Thanks.

Well it's hard to be enthusiastic when City Hall has an army of ants who will fabricate an alternative version of history every time City Hall screws up, which is getting pretty regular. Bass Pro has not paid back the $17 million. The terms of the deal were in fact altered, resulting in lower rent for Bass Pro--despite that they've been successful in the Central Oklahoma market. They were also an urban planning disaster, Bass Pro only wanted to be as close to the I-40/I-35 interchange as possible, and cared nothing about Bricktown, which is incredibly evident if you look at that site now. It stands as one of downtown's biggest embarrassments.

Not to mention that the deal was probably illegal, did get the city tied up in significant litigation, made the city look bad, and alienated a competing developer who would have done something much more appropriate with that site. ....
Are you sure about that? What I remember recently re-reading was Bass Pro asked for some upgrades (like the "lake" in front "connecting" to the Canal) and according to the City that additional cost was passed on to Bass Pro resulting in slightly higher rent??

They reportedly are paying below market rent though…

…The city has agreed to build the 110,000-square-foot store and make other improvements valued at $17.2 million, which would then be leased to Bass Pro Shops at below market rates….

While it was taken to court, it was decided that the funding mechanism used to finance it (including MAPS 4 Kids Use Tax) was perfectly legal, that the City could change their "intent" at any time. Something that we have discussed when debating the MAPS 3 ballot/Ordinance language. Accurate/truthful or not, this is what the City Manager had to say about it in the '03-'04 budget:

... A good example of this is the Bass Pro project. We estimate the project will bring in approximately $24.6 million in direct revenue and $129.9 million in indirect revenue over a 20-year period.
There has been a lot of misinformation about Bass Pro. To set the record straight, we are NOT taking, borrowing or spending from the MAPS Sales Tax or any other restricted fund. Dedicated sales tax revenue must be kept in special, separate funds. These funds are audited – internally and externally – every year.
So how are we paying for the building construction? We are borrowing from three Use Tax reserve funds established by Council resolution: the MAPS Operations, City Schools Use Tax and Public Safety Capital Equipment Use Tax Funds.
Borrowing Use Tax is not only legal and above-board, it actually benefits the three funds because the loans will be repaid at above-market interest rates.

Hmmm, the lease is below market rates but the loan is being paid back at above market rates????




...The fact is that Bass Pro is the busiest place in bricktown and more of our visitors to OKC go there than anywhere else. OK you don't like them and I can respect that however the are good for okc and bricktown. A wonderful addition.
I don't get that way often but whenever I have driven by (usually on the weekends), Bass Pro's parking lot has been mostly vacant…not even approaching the typical Wal-mart SuperCenter



I want to say it was thought to be a way to draw from not only Oklahoma but parts of other states as well, however they have been on a building spree over the past 10-15 years so really cuts down on it really being a draw more than most other big boxes (like 4x the number when the pitched the idea). What suprises me is that their pitch keeps working though there is a least one public study (http://public-accountability.org/reports/fishing_for_taxpayer_cash.pdf) indicating it does not. The price the asked Tulsa was worse, it was 24 million in subsidies built like three years later.
OKC tried to get a clause that would prohibit them building another one in the state but the best they could get an agreement on was a mile radius restriction. Bass Pro was already thinking about the Tulsa area and made sure that the limit would still allow it to be built. Also, at the time, it was reported that Tulsa/Broken Arrow (where it is located) didn't have to put up near the incentives that OKC did (some reports indicated that NO public incentives were offered.. Much, much later, it was revealed their was a behind-closed doors deal. See here for more info: http://www.batesline.com/archives/2004/05/bass-pro-quid-p.html

OK, Let me see if I have this correct. You don't like Bass Pro because they locate in tier 2 or 3 cities and small towns or suburbs? Located in MWC? You are correct about one thing: This statement SHOULD be lost on general public in OKC. It makes no sense. The overlooked fact is that Bass Pro is a tourist draw. Have you looked at the 1000's of cars parked in the lot everyday? Yes the tags are from all over. That equals sales tax dollars for Oklahoma City and is exactly why it does not belong in MWC. The fact is that Bass Pro is the busiest place in bricktown and more of our visitors to OKC go there than anywhere else. OK you don't like them and I can respect that however the are good for okc and bricktown. A wonderful addition.

1. It's one of the only free parking lots down there. The fact that the lot is full may or may not actually reflect the state of Bass Pro. Since Bass Pro won't release such figures, we have no way to confirm what you have said and can only speculate.

2. I don't doubt that Bass Pro makes money. The point of my argument was that we should have thought bigger and tried to attract much larger entities that would have drawn more people and added more tax dollars to city budgets than what we settled for. Here's a great example: I work for a company that doesn't even go after million dollar projects anymore because they aren't big enough to worry about. For the same amount of effort wooing, bidding, and perusing we can go after and win contracts worth 10 or more times that. So why waste the effort... It actually is a waste because every hour you spend perusing and securing that 1 mil project loses perhaps another 9. That's sort of my view with Bass Pro. "it's making money" isn't a high enough standard. Pawn shops make money, yet I have no desire to see one in Bricktown.

3. Businesses feed off of each other and like minds try to gravitate towards one another. Rather than just accepting any business tht makes money whatsoever, the city should have considered this collaboration effect and considered wht types of businesses a Bass Pro would cause to cluster around it. The effect is well known and seen every day, even in OKC. There was nothing strategic at all about the decision to go after Bass Pro from this respect. It did cause a hotel and a Toby Keith's to be built in close proximity.

Questor: While I can certainly see the synergy between Toby Keith's and Bass Pro in theory (the same "redneck" clientele...and I don't use that it a pejorative way, more in the Jeff Foxworthy definition), they are both along the canal and in Lower Bricktown but it isn't like they area next door to each other. Besides, I haven't heard/read of a single business that built on the Canal because of Bass Pro, but it was the Canal itself

That said, I do agree about what you said in #3. What the City should have done is convince a Wal-mart Supercenter to build there if they wanted other retail to flourish. Just look at up at Memorial or just about any other place where they have put one in. Other retail can't build/open stores fast enough just to be near them. Heck, they could have put the Bass Pro inside the Wal-mart and it could have been the sporting goods dept...LOL

1. It's one of the only free parking lots down there. The fact that the lot is full may or may not actually reflect the state of Bass Pro. Since Bass Pro won't release such figures, we have no way to confirm what you have said and can only speculate.

2. I don't doubt that Bass Pro makes money. The point of my argument was that we should have thought bigger and tried to attract much larger entities that would have drawn more people and added more tax dollars to city budgets than what we settled for. Here's a great example: I work for a company that doesn't even go after million dollar projects anymore because they aren't big enough to worry about. For the same amount of effort wooing, bidding, and perusing we can go after and win contracts worth 10 or more times that. So why waste the effort... It actually is a waste because every hour you spend perusing and securing that 1 mil project loses perhaps another 9. That's sort of my view with Bass Pro. "it's making money" isn't a high enough standard. Pawn shops make money, yet I have no desire to see one in Bricktown.

3. Businesses feed off of each other and like minds try to gravitate towards one another. Rather than just accepting any business tht makes money whatsoever, the city should have considered this collaboration effect and considered wht types of businesses a Bass Pro would cause to cluster around it. The effect is well known and seen every day, even in OKC. There was nothing strategic at all about the decision to go after Bass Pro from this respect. It did cause a hotel and a Toby Keith's to be built in close proximity.

1. Rather than guessing that the parking lot is full of free parkers you may be better served by actually going inside. I personally shop there and have for 30 years. I either ordered from the catalog or actually went to the store in Springfield before they came here. The store is always full when I am there. They also do a pretty good job of watching who is parking there. I have seen them tow cars as well.

2. You Say that the city should have thought bigger. How? What do you want ...a mall there? The fact is that there is a group that is focused on bringing more retail to bricktown. If you have leads or ideas on the "big ones", then throw them out here. We are very interested. I am also very involved in bringing businesses to the city and have been doing it for over 15 years. Bricktown has entertainment and dining. We need more retail to round it out. We would love just focus on the big projects but have to look at all projects. I also see the reports of the convention group surveys which indicate that visitors do shop in bricktown especially Bass Pro.

3. Bass Pro locating to bricktown was in fact very strategic. When they decided to come in in 2003 Bricktown was still very young and consisted of a few restaurants and clubs, and a ball park. It is easy to sit back now and criticize how or why they are there but the fact is that there are and always have been long range visions for bricktown. Again, I certainly invite you to share your ideas if you have something concrete that you want to share.

Questor: While I can certainly see the synergy between Toby Keith's and Bass Pro in theory (the same "redneck" clientele...and I don't use that it a pejorative way, more in the Jeff Foxworthy definition), they are both along the canal and in Lower Bricktown but it isn't like they area next door to each other. Besides, I haven't heard/read of a single business that built on the Canal because of Bass Pro, but it was the Canal itself

That said, I do agree about what you said in #3. What the City should have done is convince a Wal-mart Supercenter to build there if they wanted other retail to flourish. Just look at up at Memorial or just about any other place where they have put one in. Other retail can't build/open stores fast enough just to be near them. Heck, they could have put the Bass Pro inside the Wal-mart and it could have been the sporting goods dept...LOL

Walmart hardly lets other retail flourish, they usually kill off small businesses when they move in, most of the flourishing retail areas with a Walmart among them were a destination shopping location or smaller cities main shopping area before the Walmart got there.

This thread makes me sad.

1. Rather than guessing that the parking lot is full of free parkers you may be better served by actually going inside. I personally shop there and have for 30 years. I either ordered from the catalog or actually went to the store in Springfield before they came here. The store is always full when I am there. They also do a pretty good job of watching who is parking there. I have seen them tow cars as well.

Tell me specifically which store you are talking about when you say the Bass Pro store tows cars, OKC or Springfield? I believe you are talking about the Springfield store because the OKC store does not tow cars from the lot adjacent from it because the lot is owned, just like the building itself that the Bass Pro is located in, by the city and that is part of the agreement. I am just pointing this out because it misrepresents the original point, that being that the OKC lot is full because everyone is inside shopping at Bass Pro is not necessarily a true statement.

Actually I've been to the OKC, Springfield, and Grapevine (I believe that is where it's at) BP stores. I wish people wouldn't always assume that simply because someone holds a different opinion on things than you that this must obviously mean they have no first-hand knowledge of whatever subject it is that is being discussed. That's a very arrogant view to take on things. Okay, so we both have shopped at a few BPs and live in OKC (or at least I assume you do). Great, so far we're on the same page. You responded to tell me I'm wrong. So instead, here's where we start talking about why we think differently about the same thing.

The first point I was trying to make was that you really can't assume success, or failure, from the standpoint of that store helping out OKC from looking at the parking lot, which was specifically your original point. Now if what you really meant, but did not actually say in your first point, is that the inside of the store is busy... yeah, I've been in there several times and on one occasion it was completely and utterly dead. On another it was pretty busy. I'd have to stand at the entrance for days on end with a clicker to really get a sense of the true story. I haven't done that. Have you done that? I am sure that BP has done that. Have they published that information? No, BP is a private entity and they do not release that kind of data. But let's go ahead and continue down this path. In what way does the store being busy help out Bricktown? Is your argument that they are generating people, or generating tax money? Let's start with the money argument. So first, let's assume that there are a lot of people going in that store. Are they browsing around, or are they actually buying? You can answer with an anecdote and so can I, but neither one of us can answer with facts to know how well that store is really performing because the store is a private entity and it doesn't release that information to the public. So then all we are doing is spewing BS at one another. That was sort of what I was trying to convey in my first message, maybe it wasn't clear, so that is why I am writing so much now. It make no sense to argue this point whatsoever because neither of us knows the facts and cannot. So then maybe your argument was the second, that BP is generating a lot of people traffic. From the standpoint of Bricktown that's probably good even if they aren't buying anything. But it's only good if those people are staying in Bricktown for a while after looking over Bass Pro. Surely some percent of the people are. But do we know how many? Maybe there's a survey out there, but I haven't seen it.

I do know this though, and this ties into my strategic thinking comment: If OKC were truly thinking strategically, and the only good argument for the store we can come up with above is the people traffic argument, then WHY OH WHY did we locate the thing as far away from the rest of Bricktown as we did? WHY OH WHY did we make it so gosh darn easy to pull in, park, walk in, shop, leave, and zoom away by car without having to go through the rest of Bricktown? Is it strategic thinking to build something so suburban in an area that is dependent on urban foot traffic? Is it strategic thinking to build a "magnet" as far away from the rest of your retail in the area as possible? Please explain to me the strategic thinking that I am missing here.


2. You Say that the city should have thought bigger. How? What do you want ...a mall there? The fact is that there is a group that is focused on bringing more retail to bricktown. If you have leads or ideas on the "big ones", then throw them out here. We are very interested. I am also very involved in bringing businesses to the city and have been doing it for over 15 years. Bricktown has entertainment and dining. We need more retail to round it out. We would love just focus on the big projects but have to look at all projects. I also see the reports of the convention group surveys which indicate that visitors do shop in bricktown especially Bass Pro.

This is kind of a ridiculous question because the responses are limitless. Travel through this world. Look around. There are so many things that we could have built in Bricktown with public funding that would have offered better strategic direction and possibly better revenues. Okay, let's start with retail. Why couldn't we have built a Classen Curve in Bricktown? If you ask the genius marketers of the world this city couldn't support a CC then and it still can't now. The only reason we have a CC here is because guys with money, vision, and the tenacity to make it happen made it happen and have proven the marketing firms wrong. The demand was and is there. Why couldn't someone have had the vision to make that happen 10 years ago? Why couldn't it have been Bricktown? Why couldn't we have used public and private funds to do that? Don't tell me it couldn't have been successful, CC is its own proof that contrary to marketing data something like that can be successful here, probably even in Bricktown. Why wouldn't it have been better, and must more intelligent of a business decision from a "diversified portfolio" standpoint, to create a massive mixture of retail, each one with its own up and down cycles, rather than one giant monolithic big box at that site? Why didn't it make more sense to, in your most urban area of the city, locate something that focuses on WALKING, strolling, MOVING, and so on like the Classen Curve does? Why on earth would we build a giant box with one entrance at the front whose job is to get you in and out as quickly as possible? Why would we not see that is exactly what we were doing, all while the same time paying lip service to wanting to do away with all of our one-way streets downtown because we want to keep people in the core longer? Did anyone stop and think about the big picture like this at all, or was it simply they had to perform, they needed something, and they panicked? It sure seems like the latter to an outside observer. You say we have dining... we have like 147 steak shops. Except for the occasional here and then gone sushi place ethnic dining has had a very tough time surviving in Bricktown. Remember the Indian place that went out? Or the Chinese place? Or the various incarnations of Japanese restaurants? We don't even have very good coverage of dining let alone other things entirely. One Italian, one I guess it's Italian, a smattering of Mexican, and a tapas place that seems half dead every time I go in. That can't be healthy. Perhaps it is because the clientele in Bricktown likes steak and BBQ? Now how did that happen?

How about some more entertainment options? It's great that we have bowling and movies. What about art house movies? What about, I don't know, heck, indoor golf, high-end arcades... why did Dave and Busters have to locate so far from downtown? Why did we never get the GameWerks we were promised? I know the backstory, I know why they backed out that is not my question... why did that particular idea of a type of retail die with GameWerks? Clearly there are other successful businesses in that genre... one of them just located on NW Expressway. Did we not even try to get them downtown? If we did, why did we fail? Was it a density issue? Perhaps we should think more urban than suburban if that is the case!

How about an art house movie theater... Alamo Drafthouse is one of the most successful in our region and they don't exactly compete with the traditional theaters. They are sort of different markets.

What about cool outdoor, public, structures that by their very nature just attract people? What about public art by nationally recognized artists? I'm happy we have what we have from our local artists, but why not go for a bigger draw? Why don't we have other weird entertainment options... if you go to Hollywood you see a wax museum is right there on the strip full of wacky items that revolve around movie stars. What is OKC known for? What can we leverage off of and create a story such as that that folks would want to come here and see? Why do we have nothing more than a banjo museum here that even comes close to addressing that market? That's not a knock against that museum, it's a question of why it is the only thing down there like that?

If this is your business then surely you must have more ideas than me... the answer to this question should be limitless. It's been done before in every major metropolitan area in this country... I know it has, I like them and have been to them! Fly to any one of them. Fly to all of them. Take notes. Bring them back. Let me know how many contain a Bass Pro in their urban core. Actually I already know the answer to that because I have been to BP's website and reviewed every location myself... None! This city's worst problem is that it thinks like a small town. Even when it is trying not to, if we lose focus that is exactly where we end up back at. BP is a suburban retailer. It's clear as day. The reasons you don't want that in an area that you want to become your most walkable urban area are clear as day.


3. Bass Pro locating to bricktown was in fact very strategic. When they decided to come in in 2003 Bricktown was still very young and consisted of a few restaurants and clubs, and a ball park. It is easy to sit back now and criticize how or why they are there but the fact is that there are and always have been long range visions for bricktown. Again, I certainly invite you to share your ideas if you have something concrete that you want to share.

I've gotten wordy, so you may have gotten bored with me and not seen it, but at the beginning of this post I had a lot to say about this point. Basically, explain to me what the strategy was then? If the strategy was to get people down there and that BP would do that, then please tell me how it makes sense to locate BP as far away from the rest of Bricktown (at the time)? How it makes sense to build a suburban big box with parking directly in front of it and easy access to come and go without ever having to set foot in Bricktown? How it makes sense to build one giant big box as opposed to multiple items and generate density and people walking around back and forth between them? What was the strategy? Surely that wasn't it because it makes no sense whatsoever from that standpoint. So what am I missing, what was the strategy???

I guess I"d like to know what the strategy is to start talking about I240 revitalization again.

Honestly the answer is the exact opposite of my Bricktown rant above. 240 is suburban... so all the 'mistakes' of Bricktown... bring them to 240. That is where they are best suited.

What would be hysterical would be if we tried to build a big mixed use walkable outdoor retail center along 240. I only mention it because it occurs to me that seems like something we would do.

OK, Let me see if I have this correct. You don't like Bass Pro because they locate in tier 2 or 3 cities and small towns or suburbs? Located in MWC? You are correct about one thing: This statement SHOULD be lost on general public in OKC. It makes no sense. The overlooked fact is that Bass Pro is a tourist draw. Have you looked at the 1000's of cars parked in the lot everyday? Yes the tags are from all over. That equals sales tax dollars for Oklahoma City and is exactly why it does not belong in MWC. The fact is that Bass Pro is the busiest place in bricktown and more of our visitors to OKC go there than anywhere else. OK you don't like them and I can respect that however the are good for okc and bricktown. A wonderful addition.

It sounds to me like you would think a Wal-Mart Supercenter is a tourist draw and should also be in Bricktown.

I always park in their lot whenever I go to Thunder games, and no, they don't tow. There is no way for them to tow. Plus, that lot is part of the Lower Bricktown parking ecosystem, which means that technically all you have to do is patronize a LB business and then you're entitled to park there. There are 10-20 such businesses and there is no way for them to enforce that at the huge lots, although I have seen them enforce parking covenants at the smaller lots such as next to the Centennial. If they wanted to enforce the parking covenants for the huge lots like the Bass Pro one (which would draw huge flack from City Hall if Bass Pro became a parking racket), it would take hours to go through the line to get out as they check for LB receipts at the exits onto Reno. Talk about a nightmare strategy.

The Thunder are a huge tourist draw and belong downtown, not Bass Pro. And I see we have attracted one of the very few people who still think that Bass Pro was a good deal, which is further proof that on the Internet anyone can say anything and doesn't have to know what they're talking about in order to demand to be taken seriously.

Walmart hardly lets other retail flourish, they usually kill off small businesses when they move in, most of the flourishing retail areas with a Walmart among them were a destination shopping location or smaller cities main shopping area before the Walmart got there.

Look at Memorial Road & Penn and all the retail that sprang up after the WalMart Super center moved in...yeah there was some along there with Quail Springs mall but once the Wal-mart went in it just exploded...even caused Target to build a Supercenter

Course the danger is that Walmart likes to move around...ove rin Norman they were on one side of I-35 on main street, then moved across the highway on the other side of Sooner Fashion Mall, then back on the other side of I-35 on the frontage road.

They did similar things here in the City. Had a store at Rockwell & NW Expressway (current Hobby Lobby), moved it to just east of MacArthur (currently a GattiTown) and then split that one up into 2 Supercenters on opposite ends of NW Expressway. Sometimes it makes a huge difference where it is at because that small move they made may have changed what city they were located in. If you are a Bethany or Warr Acres, you may be taking a huge hit to your sales tax base, where OKC can take that in stride more readily.

2. You Say that the city should have thought bigger. How? What do you want ...a mall there? The fact is that there is a group that is focused on bringing more retail to bricktown. If you have leads or ideas on the "big ones", then throw them out here. We are very interested. I am also very involved in bringing businesses to the city and have been doing it for over 15 years. Bricktown has entertainment and dining. We need more retail to round it out. We would love just focus on the big projects but have to look at all projects. I also see the reports of the convention group surveys which indicate that visitors do shop in bricktown especially Bass Pro.
Doesn't that beg the question, are the convention group visitors shopping at Bass Pro with the intent purpose of doing so or because that is one of the view retail options within the convention center area? Or is it just a happy coincidence, they are shopping there only because it is there? That is why I thought the perfect place for the Outlet Mall would have been in lower Bricktown or even as a southern anchor of Core to Shore...a variety of retail all in one location. As successful as the Outlet Mall has been, why did OKC offer incentives for them to build near the burbs?

Or to get back to the subject of the thread, why not offer incentives for the outlet mall developers to take over Crossroads Mall...the most needful area of I-240 that needs retail revitalization??

It sounds to me like you would think a Wal-Mart Supercenter is a tourist draw and should also be in Bricktown.

I always park in their lot whenever I go to Thunder games, and no, they don't tow. There is no way for them to tow. Plus, that lot is part of the Lower Bricktown parking ecosystem, which means that technically all you have to do is patronize a LB business and then you're entitled to park there. There are 10-20 such businesses and there is no way for them to enforce that at the huge lots, although I have seen them enforce parking covenants at the smaller lots such as next to the Centennial. If they wanted to enforce the parking covenants for the huge lots like the Bass Pro one (which would draw huge flack from City Hall if Bass Pro became a parking racket), it would take hours to go through the line to get out as they check for LB receipts at the exits onto Reno. Talk about a nightmare strategy.

The Thunder are a huge tourist draw and belong downtown, not Bass Pro. And I see we have attracted one of the very few people who still think that Bass Pro was a good deal, which is further proof that on the Internet anyone can say anything and doesn't have to know what they're talking about in order to demand to be taken seriously.

You could not be farther from being wrong and I never mentioned walmart. You created that. You have an obvious problem with MAPS, Bricktown and I am sure that the rest will come out. I have my facts. You on the other hand are the okc enthuiast who is NEVER enthusiatic.

Yeah, I have an obvious problem with MAPS and Bricktown because I'm still fuming about the Bass Pro deal....DaRN THoSE REDNecKS IN TheiR LOfTz aND CoOL BuILDInGS!!

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTpiD1AjRZN932pRsLHyqqkBQOwZ-fGtXvXCxB8C5ZXQAklaP7P