My main concern with the highway through the corridor is the fact that it is dangerous, with the previous level of planning that went into it.

People get off the highway, slam on their brakes and try to dart across to the far lane, to make the nearest entry to the strip mall, instead of slowing down gradually and merging into the lane and taking the second entrance to the strip mall....

I'd be all for reducing highway access to that corridor to every other arterial, and making better use of city streets to move traffic around.

Since I know you are in this field and I do want your opinion about what could be done for this area?

I am having a difficult time envisioning exactly what can be done. Are we talking about urbanizing suburbia?

Er.... I think that Envision 240 is more of a land use planning process than a road rehabilitation project. If you have road surface-related concerns, you should take that up with ODOT.

This process isn't so much concerned with repaving the feeder roads so that it is a nicer, smoother 50 mph ride for you NOW, as it is with making sure that this area is competitive enough to weather changes in lifestyle and economic trends. This is looking much further into the future and looking much more broadly at ways to redevelop land.Is ODOT responsible for the service roads as well?

My main concern with the highway through the corridor is the fact that it is dangerous, with the previous level of planning that went into it.

People get off the highway, slam on their brakes and try to dart across to the far lane, to make the nearest entry to the strip mall, instead of slowing down gradually and merging into the lane and taking the second entrance to the strip mall....

I'd be all for reducing highway access to that corridor to every other arterial, and making better use of city streets to move traffic around.

Since I know you are in this field and I do want your opinion about what could be done for this area?

I am having a difficult time envisioning exactly what can be done. Are we talking about urbanizing suburbia?

We are talking exactly about urbanizing suburbia, or to employ a buzz phrase, "retrofitting suburbia" (check out the Ellen Dunham-Jones book on this). I am not with OKC's Planning Dept so I can't speak to their goals beyond being a native southsider, but it is my understanding that they are very serious about this process. I was initially very skeptical and even callous toward the idea of a redevelopment focus on 240 because I feel it's needed more in Capitol Hill, and not on the suburban corridor that was eventually the death knell for Capitol Hill.

That said, I think that for anyone who is skeptical that interesting, progressive things could happen here, there is solace that this seems to be a very serious endeavor with all options on the table. There are easy fixes and there are harder fixes, just as there are public fixes and private fixes for this corridor. I think 240 would make a great BRT corridor, which in particular is a transit mode that I hope to not see anywhere else in OKC.

An easy public fix, so in other words a first step, has to be limiting ingress and egress. I know exactly what you are talking about along the 240 service road, primarily at Penn, but also at other interchanges. That Schlotzsky's curb cut to the right about 100 yards ahead of the westbound offramp is a true menace - as long as traffic isn't already backed up all the way to the offramp from another accident or rush hour traffic.

Many other high volume sprawl corridors where the infrastructure is over-capacity have taken to proactively limiting ingress and egress, and not just eliminating left turn opportunities, but also limiting right turn opportunities so that to enter a pad site you have to go all the way to the light and then navigate through a development. It's kind of insane for Oklahoma City to allow every single pad site to have ample access to the main frontage road as a standalone development (when it's not, by definition of being a pad site).

Without even talking about truly retrofitting suburbia, here is an excellent example of a seriously over-capacity strip mall wasteland in Summit County (Akron area) that most urban planners in Ohio despise:

http://s2.postimg.org/irc2yftd5/howe.jpg

Without purchasing more ROW for widening the roadway, the city of Cuyahoga Falls just made the best of eliminating most curb cuts. See the bottom side of Howe Road in particular where there are countless pad sites that have no curb cut. This is a cheap, easy way to maximize safety by concentrating turning traffic in expected places, at traffic lights.

So the moral of the story is that even if you don't necessarily want to talk about revolutionizing land use policies and urbanizing certain corridors, reducing curb cuts is a win-win and won't really threaten anyone's sprawly suburban dreamland. I think the Ed Noble Pkwy in Norman is another good example, but not as good.

I have been saying this for a long time... i think that we curb cut far too often and allow each developed lot to be completely separate from the others. by limiting curb cuts and making dedicated turn in locations and then connections between lots, you shift the traffic that is just going from shop to shop off of the main road, and are increasing safety, and drive times

I have been saying this for a long time... i think that we curb cut far too often and allow each developed lot to be completely separate from the others. by limiting curb cuts and making dedicated turn in locations and then connections between lots, you shift the traffic that is just going from shop to shop off of the main road, and are increasing safety, and drive times

I hate that we curb cut so often in OKC. I'm all for anything that limits this.

I think Broadway in Edmond is another good example of making curb cuts sparingly.

If it was me I would eliminate the frontage roads and plant trees there instead. I would then focus the retail on the adjacent neighborhoods instead of on freeway traffic. I would then reconnect the street grid and get rid of the large parking lots. I would also make overpasses across I-240 that didn't have on/off ramps to relieve traffic on main arterials while making it safer for people to walk and bike.

In other words, you would just like to bulldoze the entire area and start over. LOL

Most of the businesses there are not in that area to just service the adjacent neighborhoods so that would require a total change in the make up of the types of businesses also. Nice thought, Kerry, but it's not going to happen. We'll just have to make the best choices based on what can realistically occur.

There's some dirt work on the north side of 240 inbetween Walker and Santa Fe (specifically, inbetween The Rib Crib and Jordans Crossing (nursing home?). Does anybody know what's going in there?

In other words, you would just like to bulldoze the entire area and start over. LOL

Most of the businesses there are not in that area to just service the adjacent neighborhoods so that would require a total change in the make up of the types of businesses also. Nice thought, Kerry, but it's not going to happen. We'll just have to make the best choices based on what can realistically occur.

Face it, some people are just isolationists and aren't about to change. They have no concept of free market economics and free trade, let alone free will. It's all about forcing things to be according to a philosophical notion.

If it was me I would eliminate the frontage roads and plant trees there instead. I would then focus the retail on the adjacent neighborhoods instead of on freeway traffic. I would then reconnect the street grid and get rid of the large parking lots. I would also make overpasses across I-240 that didn't have on/off ramps to relieve traffic on main arterials while making it safer for people to walk and bike.

Sorry you gotta harness the traffic that 240 brings through the area. Have you ever seen/been to 240? Because idk what street grid you talkin bout, Willis... Those aren't even the nicest neighborhoods. You're just not gonna have a little newurbanist neighborhood village shopping utopia in the hood behind 240/May.

Your dedication to new urbanism is nice but sometimes your ideas are so doggedly insane and completely lacks contextual appropriateness.

There's some dirt work on the north side of 240 inbetween Walker and Santa Fe (specifically, inbetween The Rib Crib and Jordans Crossing (nursing home?). Does anybody know what's going in there?

It's a new car dealership, Kia If I remember correctly

It will be a part of the David Stanley dealerships. They have been buying up land in that area under the name David Stanley Imports.

Sorry you gotta harness the traffic that 240 brings through the area. Have you ever seen/been to 240? Because idk what street grid you talkin bout, Willis... Those aren't even the nicest neighborhoods. You're just not gonna have a little newurbanist neighborhood village shopping utopia in the hood behind 240/May.

Your dedication to new urbanism is nice but sometimes your ideas are so doggedly insane and completely lacks contextual appropriateness.

Write it down folks, i agree with Spartan! SHOCK!

240 is one of the bright spots to the area. You absolutely can't ignore it because it's where most of the sales tax come from in the area. Why do you think the South Chamber is so concerned with bringing some life back to the area?

You could really clean that area up you closed some of the driveways and re-tooled the exits/entrances on 240. We really have to get away from having on/off ramps at every major street in this city. You can have overpasses/underpasses at each street and have a service road that accesses two or three streets. The new I-40 section is proof that traffic flows so much better and accidents are fewer and far between.

You could really clean that area up you closed some of the driveways and re-tooled the exits/entrances on 240. We really have to get away from having on/off ramps at every major street in this city. You can have overpasses/underpasses at each street and have a service road that accesses two or three streets. The new I-40 section is proof that traffic flows so much better and accidents are fewer and far between.

There still is an entry/exit ramp roughly every mile on the new i40 so I am not sure how that is proof, though I think the one diamond interchange per mile is a better arrangement than the shared entry exit lane that merges traffic into a service road right before a stoplight.

240 has them every half mile entering the left side of the access road, and then a curb cut every 100 feet on the right side of the same access road. It's an utter mess, and MWCGuy is right that it is a huge traffic safety problem.

Limited access is needed. Smarter access.

240 has them every half mile entering the left side of the access road, and then a curb cut every 100 feet on the right side of the same access road. It's an utter mess, and MWCGuy is right that it is a huge traffic safety problem.

Limited access is needed. Smarter access.

When he was talking about every 2 or 3 major streets I was thinking the mile line roads, I did not realized they did the half mile ones in that area too. The only other part I remember about the area is the some of the ramps and merge zones felt pretty short.

Well the merging zones are limited because of the number of exits when the next signed exit is 1/4 mile away. Penn and May are full-length but between Western and Eastern there's exits for Western, Walker, Santa Fe, Shields, I-35, Crossroads, then Eastern. The I-35 exit handles a lot of traffic and gets backed up to Walker between 2-6.

You could really clean that area up you closed some of the driveways and re-tooled the exits/entrances on 240. We really have to get away from having on/off ramps at every major street in this city. You can have overpasses/underpasses at each street and have a service road that accesses two or three streets. The new I-40 section is proof that traffic flows so much better and accidents are fewer and far between.

It may get better when the BLVD is opened up but ingress and egress to downtown is much worse with the new 140 crosstown. The highway may flow smoother but the Western ramps start backing up around 300 pm and by five, Western is backed up from the onramp all the way back to Reno and sometimes as far back as Sheridan. Taking the off ramp coming from the west in the morning and it is backed up sometimes onto the actual interstate...don't think that is safe. The afternoon problem could be greatly help if they would build a dedicated right turn only lane. I understand that the designers wanted Shields to be the main exit but the public will do what it wants regardless of the designers ideas. Most people are not going to drive past downtown and then thread their way back in to the city if they work at Devon, the City, the courthouse, etc. They should have left a ramp at Hudson or Walker

It may get better when the BLVD is opened up but ingress and egress to downtown is much worse with the new 140 crosstown. The highway may flow smoother but the Western ramps start backing up around 300 pm and by five, Western is backed up from the onramp all the way back to Reno and sometimes as far back as Sheridan. Taking the off ramp coming from the west in the morning and it is backed up sometimes onto the actual interstate...don't think that is safe. The afternoon problem could be greatly help if they would build a dedicated right turn only lane. I understand that the designers wanted Shields to be the main exit but the public will do what it wants regardless of the designers ideas. Most people are not going to drive past downtown and then thread their way back in to the city if they work at Devon, the City, the courthouse, etc. They should have left a ramp at Hudson or Walker

I am guessing it might help if they programmed the lights on Western from Reno through the interchange to work together, though I am not there daily, it seems like most of the times I have been there they were terribly ordered or maybe it is just not at all. For instance the last time I was there this week going south on Western after the light at Reno turns green and before the first car can get to sw 3rd it's stoplight will turn red, so you sit and watch 4th be green and then have to stop at it too.

Say what you want but if they want to fix the problem the solution has already been identified. It is called greyfield development. It has been used in lots of cities - just not in OKC yet.

http://www.usmayors.org/brownfields/library/greyfieldstogoldfields.pdf

http://www.cmap.illinois.gov/strategy-papers/urban-design/greyfield-suburban-retrofit

Say what you want but if they want to fix the problem the solution has already been identified. It is called greyfield development. It has been used in lots of cities - just not in OKC yet.

http://www.usmayors.org/brownfields/library/greyfieldstogoldfields.pdf

Greyfield / Suburban Retrofit -- Chicago Metropolitan Agency for Planning (http://www.cmap.illinois.gov/strategy-papers/urban-design/greyfield-suburban-retrofit)

Is this not what they are doing with Crossroads? Turning a failing mall into a mixed use center?

Is this not what they are doing with Crossroads? Turning a failing mall into a mixed use center?

I'm not sure. I know they are redoing it to turn it into a Hispanic themed market place but I don't know if it will be mixed use. However, if the I-240 rehab is just about repainting the parking lot lines and some building remodels they won't solve anything. They need to bulldoze it and start over and this time focus on the adjacent neighborhoods and not people driving by on the interstate (which is the strategy that led to the area declined in the first place).

FakIp--KC7U

Is this not what they are doing with Crossroads? Turning a failing mall into a mixed use center?

While it was talked about possibly doing that at one time, I think it shifted to being a reginal mall again with a focus on the Hispanic population.

I'm not sure. I know they are redoing it to turn it into a Hispanic themed market place but I don't know if it will be mixed use. However, if the I-240 rehab is just about repainting the parking lot lines and some building remodels they won't solve anything. They need to bulldoze it and start over and this time focus on the adjacent neighborhoods and not people driving by on the interstate (which is the strategy that led to the area declined in the first place).

FakIp--KC7U

Her message gets lost in a horrible PowerPoint. Talk about death by Powerpoint. It started off well enough with pictures used as examples but she then moved flow charts and words. She should've used more real world examples to walk through the planning and exection of good or successful suburban landscapes. She should've made it visual.

If you are interested in the subject there are lots of other videos out there on YouTube - but I know exactly what you mean. I actually prefer James Howard Kunstler - lots of visuals and is funny.

Her message gets lost in a horrible PowerPoint. Talk about death by Powerpoint. It started off well enough with pictures used as examples but she then moved flow charts and words. She should've used more real world examples to walk through the planning and exection of good or successful suburban landscapes. She should've made it visual.

That's funny because she's one of the most renowned faculty members at GT and in planning nationally. You'd think she'd have a captivating presentation style.

Some folks just can't get away from using the ppt file as a script rather than a talking point reminder. A good idea can be ruined when someone starts reading each line in a ppt. If that's all you're going to do, then just give me the file and i'll go through it myself. Especially seems to be an issue in university schools of business.

I HATE it when presenters do that. Especially when you are also provided with a handout to look at that consists basically of all the PowerPoint slides . . .

I'm really not trying to highjack this thread, but as long as we're on teh PPT subject... This is a few years old but I try to point people to it because it has good design ideas. http://www.telecomassociation.com/admin/vendor/How_to_Make_Better_Presentations.pdf

This may have been mentioned already in another thread. The Department of Public Safety is moving the Driver's License Exam Center from Troop A Headquarters to the old Bob Moore Dealership at 240 and 35 where they have been processing/storing new and retired OHP fleet vehicles. This should speed up the process and provide more space for people waiting in line for driver's license testing.

This may have been mentioned already in another thread. The Department of Public Safety is moving the Driver's License Exam Center from Troop A Headquarters to the old Bob Moore Dealership at 240 and 35 where they have been processing/storing new and retired OHP fleet vehicles. This should speed up the process and provide more space for people waiting in line for driver's license testing.

I'm not sure that will have any affect on I240 revitalization but I hope it helps with driver's license exam issues.

I'm not sure that will have any affect on I240 revitalization but I hope it helps with driver's license exam issues.

Well it does put the vacant dealership to more use than car storage. Another building not sitting empty and underutilized.

And if it's going to be there until the interchange on that side is done, then they'll get like 10 years out of it anyway right?

Not sure if this has been posted before.

Some cool concepts:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5333/10088303094_d9d59ebd94_c.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3733/10088360095_14ceb48c81_c.jpg

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2868/10088307984_fc69b598e8_c.jpg

The new interchange to be built: I-240/I-35

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7426/10088379586_9213d0b4c2_c.jpg

They still have the damn cloverleafs at two ramps. Very annoying. I hope they might change this, but I'm very doubtful. This just sucks though. I just wish ODOT would get with the program and build all flyovers.

Granted, I still think the highway should be reconfigured to this: 8 lanes, cement, have every other ramp removed and more limited access, reconstruct the service roads in cement and continue the over the interchange, add dual left turn lanes, right turn lane, add 10 ft. sidewalks for ped and bikes. I would not support bike lanes on the service roads.

Anyways, here is the PDF file: http://www.okc.gov/planning/envision240/envision240.pdf

I believe also heard from Steve somewhere, that ODOT will be releasing its new 8 year plan on Monday, will be interesting to see that.

Loathe the traffic circles.

What gets me is that, as a kid, we had the Classen traffic circle that became a nightmare of accidents and congestion, and the wisdom finally emerged that while they (circles) were pretty, they weren't very practical, and tore it out. Now we're forgetting what we've learned and talking about putting them back in. Alas.

So do I see in that diagram that I-240 is going to be rebuilt to go above Shields Blvd??

I just wish they'd kill off the eastbound on-ramp to I-240 from Shields RIGHT NOW. Its a prime source of the rush-hour accidents there.

Loathe the traffic circles.

What gets me is that, as a kid, we had the Classen traffic circle that became a nightmare of accidents and congestion, and the wisdom finally emerged that while they (circles) were pretty, they weren't very practical, and tore it out. Now we're forgetting what we've learned and talking about putting them back in. Alas.

that is an apples and oranges comparison

The new interchange to be built: I-240/I-35

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7426/10088379586_9213d0b4c2_c.jpg

They still have the damn cloverleafs at two ramps. Very annoying. I hope they might change this, but I'm very doubtful. This just sucks though. I just wish ODOT would get with the program and build all flyovers.

Granted, I still think the highway should be reconfigured to this: 8 lanes, cement, have every other ramp removed and more limited access, reconstruct the service roads in cement and continue the over the interchange, add dual left turn lanes, right turn lane, add 10 ft. sidewalks for ped and bikes. I would not support bike lanes on the service roads.

Anyways, here is the PDF file: http://www.okc.gov/planning/envision240/envision240.pdf

I believe also heard from Steve somewhere, that ODOT will be releasing its new 8 year plan on Monday, will be interesting to see that.

They're still going to use the cloverleaf ramps?? Honest to god, what a joke.

So I am guessing this isn't even going to be a stack interchange?

Yes, that is the ODOT that says "we can't have flyovers because of freezing roads and they want to limit them because of safety". I told them that in OKC, we only have a handful of poor / icy conditions each year, but we have to drive on your treachorous engineering for 365 days a year, 24/7. Now what is the SAFETY issue?

They're still going to use the cloverleaf ramps?? Honest to god, what a joke.

2 of them that feed on to ramps not the interstate .. so not a joke

Hybrid cloverleaf-flyover interchanges have been built in quite a few cities and are very safe and efficient, provided that the cloverleaf portion of the interchange serves lower traffic ramps and have dedicated lanes for merging (so no weaving). Not everything needs to be a four layer stack, and given the piecemeal way ODOT is funded it would be 2030 before one would be built here.

2 of them that feed on to ramps not the interstate .. so not a joke

Oh, pardon me. You're right. Not a joke.

2 of them that feed on to ramps not the interstate .. so not a joke

No, look again. The loop from E bound 240 to N bound 35 is still the major problem in congestion.

They're still going to use the cloverleaf ramps?? Honest to god, what a joke.I know, I'm still not quite sure if they are really going to do that. Nearly every city our size and bigger is going to flyovers and we're still going back to the cloverleafs. It's insanity. ODOT really needs help.

Yes, that is the ODOT that says "we can't have flyovers because of freezing roads and they want to limit them because of safety". I told them that in OKC, we only have a handful of poor / icy conditions each year, but we have to drive on your treachorous engineering for 365 days a year, 24/7. Now what is the SAFETY issue?Agreed, from what I've seen, Denver has tons of 5 stack interchanges and we can't do that here in OKC, in a subtropical climate???? Thats a new one.

2 of them that feed on to ramps not the interstate .. so not a jokeIt is a joke, cloverleafs are outdated and inefficient designs. That is one thing I love about Dallas is the interchanges are a breeze. You don't even really have to slow down at all going through them.

Hybrid cloverleaf-flyover interchanges have been built in quite a few cities and are very safe and efficient, provided that the cloverleaf portion of the interchange serves lower traffic ramps and have dedicated lanes for merging (so no weaving). Not everything needs to be a four layer stack, and given the piecemeal way ODOT is funded it would be 2030 before one would be built here.Well, they need to change the way they fund it then, because this is ridiculous.

So I am guessing this isn't even going to be a stack interchange?Unfortunately not. Tulsa will probably decide to build one first lol

It is a joke, cloverleafs are outdated and inefficient designs. That is one thing I love about Dallas is the interchanges are a breeze. You don't even really have to slow down at all going through them.

Plupan, that's because you can't go more than 5 MPH already on most DFW freeways. LOL

Unfortunately not. Tulsa will probably decide to build one first lol

I don't think Tulsa could at the moment, because its not the city that determines these things. All the interchange designs are in the hands of ODOT. The only way Tulsa is getting a major stack interchange is if there is a change of ODOT policy and the first project after the change happens to be in Tulsa.

This isn't just an Oklahoma thing though. North Carolina only has one four-level stack in the state and it was built fairly recently in Charlotte. Tennessee on the other hand has them everywhere. Driving through Nashville on I-40 makes me think of Texas cities because of how the freeways are built. Tennessee's transportation department I believe gets far more funding and it shows.

So back onto this interchange, is it at least going to be three-levels or will it be ground level like the current interchange?

Plupan, that's because you can't go more than 5 MPH already on most DFW freeways. LOL

I disagree. Dallas freeways, when not clogged, actually move much faster than OKC freeways do. It's custom there to drive 10-15 mph over the speed limit vs 5 under the limit in OKC.

Plupan, that's because you can't go more than 5 MPH already on most DFW freeways. LOLWell, that's only true during rush hour, but imagine how worse it would be if they were still all cloverleafs? Dallas still has plenty of cloverleaf interchanges, but the 5 stack interchanges are breathtaking and magnificent, so efficient and ease of use.

I was doing 90MPH and still had a few people passing me on the North Dallas Tollway. I loved it!!!!!!

I don't think Tulsa could at the moment, because its not the city that determines these things. All the interchange designs are in the hands of ODOT. The only way Tulsa is getting a major stack interchange is if there is a change of ODOT policy and the first project after the change happens to be in Tulsa.

This isn't just an Oklahoma thing though. North Carolina only has one four-level stack in the state and it was built fairly recently in Charlotte. Tennessee on the other hand has them everywhere. Driving through Nashville on I-40 makes me think of Texas cities because of how the freeways are built. Tennessee's transportation department I believe gets far more funding and it shows.

So back onto this interchange, is it at least going to be three-levels or will it be ground level like the current interchange?I think this one will be at least 3 or 4 levels.

Well, that's only true during rush hour, but imagine how worse it would be if they were still all cloverleafs? Dallas still has plenty of cloverleaf interchanges, but the 5 stack interchanges are breathtaking and magnificent, so efficient and ease of use.

I was doing 90MPH and still had a few people passing me on the North Dallas Tollway. I loved it!!!!!!

I've driven on Dallas freeways for at least 40 years and totally disagree. I've been in very slow traffic at 11PM at night. I'm sure you enjoy doing 90, plupan, but please be careful. That's totally dangerous on a city freeway.

I've driven on Dallas freeways for at least 40 years and totally disagree. I've been in very slow traffic at 11PM at night. I'm sure you enjoy doing 90, plupan, but please be careful. That's totally dangerous on a city freeway.Huh, well I was there last weekend, and it had better traffic then OKC, guess it's bipolar.

As for me speeding, I actually have been slowing down and driving the speed limit lately, but you are completely right about it being dangerous. I've actually been looking into a good track around here, but haven't found much. :/

Anyways, perhaps there was a wreck or a football game going on when you there?

Huh, well I was there last weekend, and it had better traffic then OKC, guess it's bipolar.

As for me speeding, I actually have been slowing down and driving the speed limit lately, but you are completely right about it being dangerous. I've actually been looking into a good track around here, but haven't found much. :/

Anyways, perhaps there was a wreck or a football game going on when you there?

Nope, no wrecks and no football games. It's just extremely busy almost any time of the day. And I'm glad you're slowing down. I did the same thing when I was your age so I understand the thrill. It only takes one quick slip up at 90 MPH per hour to be fatal for you or someone in another car. Please try to remember that. It could ruin your life.

What I consider crazy are folks doing 20+ over the speed limit in the city during the day. You never know when a tire will blow, you might debris in the road or someone may pullout in front of you causing you to crash and take out as many as dozen other cars.

If any of you have the time to take OSU-OKC's Precision Driving Course I would encourage you to do so. It's worth the time and the money, not to mention it will save you a few dollars on car insurance. I took through work and I came away with a whole new set of driving skills.

In regards to the topic, I think 240 needs to be reconfigured to where the service road can only be accessed at certain points instead of driveway cutaways every 50 feet. The westbound Penn off ramp and eastbound Walker off ramp are nightmares to navigate on most days.