I wonder why he is not going to demolish the buildings south of Sheridan? Makes sense to go ahead and demolish those too...

I wonder why he is not going to demolish the buildings south of Sheridan? Makes sense to go ahead and demolish those too...

unless they aren't going to be doing anything with that land in the immediate future... don't want a spot that causes dirt and sand to blow through bricktown in the wind is in the right direction. at least that is my thought on the matter

Such a great news. These buildings have served as a primary, and embarrassing, entrance to Bricktown for too long.

I am usually apprehensive about any demolition because we've seen that even when specific plans to redevelop are a part, even then we often end up with nothing more than another weed-filled lot.

But in this case, the demolition, clean-up and utility issues are going to take a lot of time and would be needed no matter what is built there. Also, there is really no hope for the existing metal structures.

Even if this particular deal doesn't come together doing this work now will greatly help whatever ultimately happens there. And it sounds like the existing proposal continues to move forward. All this won't be cheap for Meinders so he must have some degree of confidence.

Such a great news. These buildings have served as a primary, and embarrassing, entrance to Bricktown for too long.

The gas station, McDonald's, and Bass Pro on Reno are almost just as embarrassing.

unless they aren't going to be doing anything with that land in the immediate future... don't want a spot that causes dirt and sand to blow through bricktown in the wind is in the right direction. at least that is my thought on the matter

Sod and water are fairly cheap and would be a definite improvement.

I am usually apprehensive about any demolition because we've seen that even when specific plans to redevelop are a part, even then we often end up with nothing more than another weed-filled lot.

But in this case, the demolition, clean-up and utility issues are going to take a lot of time and would be needed no matter what is built there. Also, there is really no hope for the existing metal structures.

Even if this particular deal doesn't come together doing this work now will greatly help whatever ultimately happens there. And it sounds like the existing proposal continues to move forward. All this won't be cheap for Meinders so he must have some degree of confidence.
I know Bob personally, and ran into him at a Thunder game right as this project was bubbling to the surface. We chatted for quite a while about it. This development is going to happen. The utility relocation was the key to all of it.

Something else folks should know about Bob is that he is perhaps the property owner in Bricktown most driven to secure great retail. He and I compared notes from my days with the Automobile Alley Main Street program, when I naïvely approached national retailers in hopes they would give the district the time of day before being brought back down to earth by the harsh realities of national retail site selection standards for nearby rooftops and demographics. In working to bring quality retail to Bricktown over the past few years, he was much more experienced, sophisticated and resourceful than I was of course, and certainly the rooftop count for downtown was slightly improved over the late nineties and early 2000s, but he still ran into very similar frustrations.

That is one of the reasons he chose to move forward with this particular development rather than chasing the impractical and improbable. There is existing pent-up demand for the product that this project will bring to market. But I also believe Bob feels this development brings us a step closer to being a realistic market for the retail he wants to see down here, and in the long view that could be what transpires on the other side of Sheridan. It is a very practical and systematic approach.

I know Bob personally, and ran into him at a Thunder game right as this project was bubbling to the surface. We chatted for quite a while about it. This development is going to happen. The utility relocation was the key to all of it.

When do you think we actually start to see the development begin? Early 2013? Later?

When do you think we actually start to see the development begin? Early 2013? Later?

I'll say it won't be until next Spring before we start seeing cranes...

When do you think we actually start to see the development begin? Early 2013? Later?
We didn't discuss timelines. There are people one here who probably have better information on the when of this project, but the utility relocation is critical. Bob said one of the sewer lines running under the property is literally big enough to drive a car through.

That makes sense, as the I-40 relocation required relocation of two sewer lines on the south end of the canal about 4-5 years ago. They had to bore the replacement lines under the existing Bricktown canal. They were easily 6' in diameter. One of the lines under Bob's property might be 100 years old.

The article with the above video.

http://newsok.com/majority-of-former-w.h.-stewart-co.-factory-in-bricktown-is-set-for-demolition/article/3692350

One of the lines under Bob's property might be 100 years old.

Don't say that - someone is going to want to 'save' it.

LOL. Just remember that good HP and smart urban development are not mutually exclusive; in fact most of the time they are the best of partners.

Yeah, I don't think there was any purpose to that joke except to damage Kerry's credibility on other issues.

Yeah, I don't think there was any purpose to that joke except to damage Kerry's credibility on other issues.

Sounds like a reasonable objective to me. LOL

The gas station, McDonald's, and Bass Pro on Reno are almost just as embarrassing.

While they will never be architectural treasures, anything is up from what you see along east Reno.

I suppose it's too much to hope this site could be our next residential tower?

Doesn't Bricktown have a limitation on how tall buildings can be?

I suppose it's too much to hope this site could be our next residential tower?

What do you mean? Hasn't the developer already announced it will be a 4 story apartment complex and an 8 story hotel?

Yeah, but until the plans are filed one can hope. A residential tower would be far cooler than another cookie cutter apartment building.

Yeah, but until the plans are filed one can hope. A residential tower would be far cooler than another cookie cutter apartment building.

I agree, that would be great. And it would be a great location for residents, spur more development in East Bricktown, provide a great entryway to Bricktown, and help connect OUHSC somewhat.

A residential tower would be far cooler than another cookie cutter apartment building.

While I agree with you that developers need to now start looking at for sale housing again to balance the scales and add more quality/lasting value to the area, I think it is a stretch to call an urban apartment building in OKC a "cookie cutter" building. It's still outside the norm and a refreshing thing to see when compared to the other 99% of the city.

I'm just saying think about how much our standards and expectations have risen just in the last few years in regards to urban residential projects. I'm sure this project will have all the fundamentals as far as minimal setback and street interaction, and density is a given. If it were proposed even just 2 or 3 years ago (granted I know we were in the heart of a recession), the sound of this would have had us all salivating (as would have LEVEL and Maywood Apartments for that matter).

They all basically look the same and perform the same way. A little bit of brick, a lot of EIFS, cheap windows, a gable here, a flat roof there. And all will be abandoned for the next best thing when the lease is up. I'm ready for something different. I'm happy people are finally interested in living downtown but we're filling a lot up with buildings that will age quickly and not well. People complained about for sale housing. I'm complaining about for rent.

They all basically look the same and perform the same way. A little bit of brick, a lot of EIFS, cheap windows, a gable here, a flat roof there. And all will be abandoned for the next best thing when the lease is up. I'm ready for something different. I'm happy people are finally interested in living downtown but we're filling a lot up with buildings that will age quickly and not well. People complained about for sale housing. I'm complaining about for rent.

Amen

They all basically look the same and perform the same way. A little bit of brick, a lot of EIFS, cheap windows, a gable here, a flat roof there. And all will be abandoned for the next best thing when the lease is up. I'm ready for something different. I'm happy people are finally interested in living downtown but we're filling a lot up with buildings that will age quickly and not well. People complained about for sale housing. I'm complaining about for rent.

I know I'm not speaking exclusively about Deep Deuce/Bricktown with these, but can you not easily see places like the Montgomery, Park Harvey, the original Deep Deuce Apartments, or even something like the Edge eventually being converted to condo/for sale if/when the demand warrants?

It sounds like you're more concerned with lasting architecture rather than even ownership stability however, so maybe my question is irrelevant. There would be less trash that you have to pick up though, right? :-)

The going trend right now is 4-5 story apartment buildings here in Oklahoma City, look @ Level, Edge, Maywood, and now East Bricktown. But I kinda of like that Oklahoma City has this trend in Deep Deuce, and Bricktown. Let's save our first high rise residential tower for downtown, which might not be too far off...I think either a residential tower or office tower will occupy the Stage Center site...

What do you mean? Hasn't the developer already announced it will be a 4 story apartment complex and an 8 story hotel?

This. To me, 8 stories is perfect for tall development in Bricktown. It does add vertical density, but it doesn't overpower the street level and blow up the human scale.

This. To me, 8 stories is perfect for tall development in Bricktown. It does add vertical density, but it doesn't overpower the street level and blow up the human scale.

Spartan, any rumors or guesses going around in your circles as to potential brands that the hotel could be, or way too early?

Since this development borders the rail right of way that is the NE commuter corridor, it would be nice to incorporate a "Bricktown East" station for future transit. Unfortunately it will not be used for that purpose for a few years. I wonder if space could be reserved for that purpose in the planning?

Spartan, any rumors or guesses going around in your circles as to potential brands that the hotel could be, or way too early?

I don't think it's too early - if Gary Clark wants to maintain his previously stated timeline, he needs to at least have a few in mind by now. That said, I haven't heard anything. What I have heard, not to leave you empty-handed, is that this intersection (Sheridan/Joe Carter) could quickly become the new "IT" intersection in downtown, with another development that could be announced.

That said, I haven't heard anything. What I have heard, not to leave you empty-handed, is that this intersection (Sheridan/Joe Carter) could quickly become the new "IT" intersection in downtown, with another development that could be announced.

I would sure hope that it's the southeast corner and wouldn't involve demolition of the current buildings on the northwest.

Well, have you guys noticed where all Meinders is undergoing demolition?

This project might end up being bigger than we thought, with 2nd and 3rd phases:

http://www.naisullivangroup.com/OKNews/Bricktownapartmentprojectcouldblossom.pdf

I thought the hotel was already included, or do they mean a second hotel?

The original proposal for the apartments included hotel, on the land that had nothing to do with the OCURA land, so I would suspect they are talking about another hotel.

The original proposal for the apartments included hotel, on the land that had nothing to do with the OCURA land, so I would suspect they are talking about another hotel.

or it was just a little unclear ...

Well, according to this article back in March, the hotel is to be located on the corner of Joe Carter/Sheridan, not on OCURA land:

http://www.naisullivangroup.com/OKNews/OklahomaCitywillconsider4.5millionfederalgrantforw orkforcehousingineastBricktown.pdf

What might have been unclear? The original proposal very clearly had a hotel component along with the apartments.

Well, Sheridan is certainly turning into hotel row, and it kind of already is (Colcord, Renaissance and Sheraton adjacent, Hampton Inn, Hilton Garden Inn/Homewood Suites, and this development).

I'm still confused a bit myself on exactly which parcels will be developed as a part of the proposed first phase.

From the looks of this recent graphic, it appears the OCURA land north of Sheridan will be in Phase I and that the other parcel would be for future development.

In addition, Meinder also owns those steel buildings on the south side of Sheridan west of the OCURA land and I suppose that would be a future phase as well.



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/eastbricktown81512.jpg

I think that "phase 1" will be the apts and the hotel on the stewart metal site north of sheridan .... phase 2 would be more apt on the ocura land north of sheridan

phase 3 would be the south side of sheridan

Are there any concerns with the number of rental apartments in this east area of Okc?

Are there any concerns with the number of rental apartments in this east area of Okc?

don't know why there would be

I think it may be time to pull back the reins on apartments in that area.

This is so typical of real estate development... Whatever is somewhat hot and thus able to get financing gets completely overbuilt and by the time many of the projects are finished, there is a glut.

Don't think we are quite there yet but somebody needs to start considering where to draw the line.

We talk all the time about needing housing to add life to our downtown area and we're now worried about adding too many apartments?

The concern is too many cheap / lower-end apartments in one area.

If the Hill gets completely built out, that will be a large counter balance of ownership stability to the area.

The concern is too many cheap / lower-end apartments in one area.

This isn't suburbia building out where todays apartments are next years slums because everyone moves further out (aka Rolling Ghetto). Densification works the other way. I am not worried about large areas becoming 'less than desireable', so long as suburban forces don't come around again (and I don't think they will). Suburban expansion on the scale we have seen it will be a one-time event in Human history.

Cheaply built apartments will deteriorate regardless of where they are built or how dense the neighborhood is. As long as the actual construction is of sustaining quality no one cares about how cheap the rent is. Secondly, you still need people with higher levels of discretionary cash to inhabit the area to help lift retail, etc.

Again, it is about BALANCE and a strong economic model that lets it sustain beyond a fad.

When land becomes a premium again today's apartments will go condo. The concern will then be if after conversion to condo will the new owners turn around and start renting them out. Things could go down hill for individual buildings if that happens, which is why most condo associations don't allow rentals. If you buy it you live in it.

This is a difficult one for me. In the neighborhood I lived in Seattle, it was quite common to see "cheap" apartments just a block away from million dollar homes and condo complexes. In fact, the condo building I lived in was flanked by two apartment buildings that you would call "cheap". The goal is a solid mix, which is what I think Pete is talking about.

If that was Pete's point then I misunderstood. The ultimate goal of urbanism should be to not have pockets of any demographic, which is why projects receiving federal funding have to include a mix of rental rates.

With these latest proposed projects, 2,563 of the 3,053 downtown units (84%) will be apartments and almost all of them at the lower end of spectrum; i.e. very few luxury rentals.

This is not balance.

I understand that the condo market has been tough but the projects being proposed now won't be ready for years and by then the market will likely have shifted again.

Plus, we don't have really any higher end units for rent.

Truth is, OKC is a dirty industry, manufacturing, and call center salary dominated city. Therefore, developers are going tailor their development to meet demand, which are apartments.

Economics 101: Jobs demand people, people demand housing, housing demands retail, retail demands entertainment.

So the moral of this story is, high paying jobs will bring upscale housing, retail, and entertainment.

Truth is, OKC is a dirty industry, manufacturing, and call center salary dominated city. Therefore, developers are going tailor their development to meet demand, which are apartments.

Not downtown.

Truth is, OKC is a dirty industry, manufacturing, and call center salary dominated city. Therefore, developers are going tailor their development to meet demand, which are apartments.

Are you considering the oil and gas industry to be "dirty". If not, I don't get your point about that.

Economics 101: Jobs demand people, people demand housing, housing demands retail, retail demands entertainment.

So the moral of this story is, high paying jobs will bring upscale housing, retail, and entertainment.

We have plenty of high-paying jobs, but our high-paid residents tend to live in the 'burbs and go to megachurches. Not criticizing, just pointing out this obvious fact.

Our urbanists are either very high-paid individuals or young folks still making their way. What's missing is quality-built for-sale housing for middle to upper-middle class incomes. That is the sweet spot. That is the market that is underserved. Clearly, there's a market demand for this type of housing, but it's not available. I don't know if our developers are greedy, unimaginative, or if building quality housing for this demographic is simply not economically viable, but that is the void that we have all seen and discussed for years on end (I joined OKCTalk in 2005, and we were discussing it then!).

As of this month, the median home price in OKC has reached $160,000, but when you shop around, you quickly realize you can find very nice three-bedroom homes in nice neighborhoods for far less than this. Yet Downtown, you can barely afford a studio loft at that median price.

Is this a matter of economics, or is it not possible to sell a nice, well-built, two-bedroom multifamily unit in the downtown area for the OKC median home price at a reasonable profit? I believe that it IS possible, but that this type of housing is simply not being built for whatever reason.

Remember: the city fathers thought it would be a great idea to offer half million and up housing for sale downtown first. Their argument was that you start upscale first, because if you start with "midscale" or "downscale" housing, you cannot improve values. And they were wrong, as this approach has rarely worked in any real city. "Hot" downtown or urban neighborhoods almost always start out with relatively affordable housing, which quickly escalates in value, leading to further, more upscale development. This has happened everywhere else but our city leaders chose to ignore it, or else they simply do not understand the economic forces involved with urban development and gentrification.

Put another way, why would you invest in half million and up real estate in an unproven market area? If you do, you have enough faith and / or money to blow to lose that bet. Conversely, if you invest in a neighborhood that is already "happening," you're making a wise investment in the future, knowing that values will rise. OKC did this all ass-backwards.

Part of the problem is that our city leadership is not very urban. Witness the recent boulevard ado and other issues. These folks just don't understand what drives urban residents, which has been evident for years. Our Chamber and others know we need to have urban residents, but they don't know how to make it happen. And why would they? Most of our city leaders live in suburban or quasi-suburban enclaves and that's all they know, excepting the theatre junkets they take to NYC or conferences in other big cities. This mentality may explain why so many of them believe that a flipping convention center could play any role in improving our inner-city quality of life.

We have plenty of high-paying jobs, but our high-paid residents tend to live in the 'burbs and go to megachurches. Not criticizing, just pointing out this obvious fact.

Our urbanists are either very high-paid individuals or young folks still making their way. What's missing is quality-built for-sale housing for middle to upper-middle class incomes. That is the sweet spot. That is the market that is underserved. Clearly, there's a market demand for this type of housing, but it's not available. I don't know if our developers are greedy, unimaginative, or if building quality housing for this demographic is simply not economically viable, but that is the void that we have all seen and discussed for years on end (I joined OKCTalk in 2005, and we were discussing it then!).

As of this month, the median home price in OKC has reached $160,000, but when you shop around, you quickly realize you can find very nice three-bedroom homes in nice neighborhoods for far less than this. Yet Downtown, you can barely afford a studio loft at that median price.

Is this a matter of economics, or is it not possible to sell a nice, well-built, two-bedroom multifamily unit in the downtown area for the OKC median home price at a reasonable profit? I believe that it IS possible, but that this type of housing is simply not being built for whatever reason.

Remember: the city fathers thought it would be a great idea to offer half million and up housing for sale downtown first. Their argument was that you start upscale first, because if you start with "midscale" or "downscale" housing, you cannot improve values. And they were wrong, as this approach has rarely worked in any real city. "Hot" downtown or urban neighborhoods almost always start out with relatively affordable housing, which quickly escalates in value, leading to further, more upscale development. This has happened everywhere else but our city leaders chose to ignore it, or else they simply do not understand the economic forces involved with urban development and gentrification.

Put another way, why would you invest in half million and up real estate in an unproven market area? If you do, you have enough faith and / or money to blow to lose that bet. Conversely, if you invest in a neighborhood that is already "happening," you're making a wise investment in the future, knowing that values will rise. OKC did this all ass-backwards.

Part of the problem is that our city leadership is not very urban. Witness the recent boulevard ado and other issues. These folks just don't understand what drives urban residents, which has been evident for years. Our Chamber and others know we need to have urban residents, but they don't know how to make it happen. And why would they? Most of our city leaders live in suburban or quasi-suburban enclaves and that's all they know, excepting the theatre junkets they take to NYC or conferences in other big cities. This mentality may explain why so many of them believe that a flipping convention center could play any role in improving our inner-city quality of life.

Could not agree more with this assessment, well stated

Remember that The Hill was supposed to be more middle-of-the-road in terms of pricing but by the time the units came to market the asking prices were quite a bit higher than had been pitched to win the OCURA selection process.

I would hope the next for-sale units built actually hit this middle ground. I think we now have enough track record for developers to know exactly what the numbers are going to be, which should inspire confidence to build in the low profit-margin range.

It seems to me that the people most likely to live in this area are 20somethings who are looking to have fun. These rentals cater to them. When older people show more interest in the area, and urban lifestyle, then there will be more of a market for higher rents, etc.