One of those larger corner retail spots would be perfect for a Trader Joes. Would make tons of money, and finally fill the f'ing need for larger grocery downtown.

I wouldn't call TJs a larger grocery store (unless you're only making reference to Native Roots, the current downtown store). I consider TJs to be a specialty grocer not unlike what Native Roots used to be - just larger.

Downtown needs a mainstream large format grocer along the lines of a SuperTarget, urban Walmart, Safeway that have all lines of household goods, groceries and produce, and ready to eat meals for the downtown core community.

but I do agree with your point that a TJs would be perfect for the Steelyard. ..

HEB Central Market would be ideal in my opinion and with the liquor laws changing, crazier things have happened!

How big is the retail component? Can't be full-grocer size, right?

I am one of those who makes real decisions and faces real consequences. I don't use Arial for anything.

How much does it cost to hire you not to use Arial vs. the financial consequences of using Arial?

Arial vs. Gotham (http://www.identifont.com/differences?first=Arial&second=Gotham)

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/steelyard062818.jpg

Any updates on move-ins or rumblings on the retail here? Is the street more cleaned up?

There is already residents in the western-most building.

Any updates on move-ins or rumblings on the retail here? Is the street more cleaned up?

I went by on Saturday and they still have construction fences up in front of the east section; not much had changed since I last posted a photo.

No commercial tenants yet and I haven't see any building permits. All the windows still have For Lease signs.

I know they have been working on some deals but not sure where they stand.

Hidden Dragon Yoga is already open at the Steelyard, or at least having classes there if their space isn't finished yet.

Hidden Dragon Yoga is already open at the Steelyard, or at least having classes there if their space isn't finished yet.

I stand corrected! Thanks for the info.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/steelyard082518.jpg

Is there plans for a sidewalk between Steelyard and the Hill?

Hidden Dragon Yoga is already open at the Steelyard, or at least having classes there if their space isn't finished yet.

Open-ish. They are having classes, and they're in a temp space in the courtyard of the steelyard apts.

Is there plans for a sidewalk between Steelyard and the Hill?

I don't think so.... I think it is the same situation as the Deep Deuce aluminum bridge.

I don't think so.... I think it is the same situation as the Deep Deuce aluminum bridge.

Long time stalker, first time poster here... maybe this has already been answered but what’s up with the gap between The Hill and The Steelyard? It’s pretty ugly.

Long time stalker, first time poster here... maybe this has already been answered but what’s up with the gap between The Hill and The Steelyard? It’s pretty ugly.

If I had to guess I'd say that's railway right of way, so...it will likely stay that way

The locals use it as free parking...

If I had to guess I'd say that's railway right of way, so...it will likely stay that way

That's exactly correct. It's owned by Union Pacific, who owns that rail yard directly to the east (the rail facility you see above the highway in Pete's picture). This used to be owned by the Rock Island railroad, and the gap was a corridor for an interchange track that allowed freight cars to pass between the north-south BNSF line and the Rock Island. Since Union Pacific took over that line, they have avoided abandoning this short bit of track; most recently because that line will be necessary for passenger rail connections to Tulsa and/or Shawnee from Santa Fe Station (our intermodal transit hub).

I wish we could turn it into a park in the meantime.

I wish we could turn it into a park in the meantime.

Did you miss that no one except the railroad company owns that land?

Did you miss that no one except the railroad company owns that land?

That's why I said "I wish." It would be nice if the railroad would let us build a simple park until they are ready to use the land.

You could install sod and mow it or landscape it nicer.

But where would everybody park then??

If I had a few thousand to throw away (I don’t) I’d go and buy a few yards of gravel, and a few pallets of pavers and go out in the middle of the night and dig out a make shift sidewalk since the city doesn’t seem interested in it.

I'm sure the city would if it could

I'm sure the city would if it could

Why do you think that? In the areas the city does control, they've failed to build sidewalks connecting these areas. The railroad prevents a sidewalk in that one short stretch of Russell M. Perry, but there's no sidewalk at all on the west side for another block north.

On another note, it's also disappointing that the recently built east sidewalk is not inviting to general pedestrians as it seems to almost be a private sidewalk for Hill residents. I bet most people walk in the street instead of turning in and using the Hill sidewalk.

If I spent half a million dollars on a place in the Hill, or if I was just a resident or regular in Deep Deuce, I'd be complaining that to get to Bricktown I have to walk in the middle of a road with cars. There are possible solutions here and I don't know why this important connecting area has been ignored.

Because some time back on this forum there was some kind of master plan posted that showed a walking path to the boathouse district from Deep Deuce/Bricktown, which would have covered the particular sidewalkless area we're discussing. That shows that someone at the city is thinking about it at least. I can't remember for the life of me what that thread was called.

Sheridan is now completely open in front of this development.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/steelyard102018a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/steelyard102018b.jpg

Looks fantastic. I just don't understand the weird obsession with Juliet balconies here. Living in a condo/apartment with a full balcony in a downtown area is a wonderful perk and I would pay more for one with than without. So why not build them?

It may have to do with the balconies hovering over sidewalks

Looks fantastic. I just don't understand the weird obsession with Juliet balconies here. Living in a condo/apartment with a full balcony in a downtown area is a wonderful perk and I would pay more for one with than without. So why not build them?

I've asked this before. I spent time in Milwaukee the last two summers and seemingly every urban apartment and condo had a huge balcony. Very few do in OKC.

Yes, because the city sold it back to them. The railroad has only owned that land and rail for a few short years in the recent past. A bunch of people told the city not to let it go back to the railroad but they were “meh”.

Regarding the clearing of land to the east of the Steelyard, Gary Brooks says they are just clearing it for now but hope to get going on the next phase at then end of 2019.

Any momentum on tenants for the storefronts?

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/steelyard021719.jpg

Any idea what the occupancy percentage is on them?

Any momentum on tenants for the storefronts?

Bump. Why are places like the Steelyard and Lift unable to find any tenants at all for their ground level retail? Is it worth waiting for the right tenant?

Bump. Why are places like the Steelyard and Lift unable to find any tenants at all for their ground level retail? Is it worth waiting for the right tenant?
Head count, demographics and expense.

Just because you require retail SPACE at all these new developments doesn’t mean there is retail than can afford to be there.

Bump. Why are places like the Steelyard and Lift unable to find any tenants at all for their ground level retail? Is it worth waiting for the right tenant?

May have a lot to do with what it would cost to do business as a retail store inside those areas. Amazon & online ordering has had an affect on the smaller strip mall type store fronts as well as the giant malls like Penn Square & Quail Springs. My grandchildren have shown me how easy it is to order on Amazon on my computer. I don't like posting my debit & credit cards on these devices.

I'm old fashion, as they say. Like to see, feel & touch items before purchase.

They wanted me to order a new device. Telling me in so many words how outdated my keyboard & mouse were when they were really hinting at the heart & brain device--as if I didn't know.

This younger generation make me feel like a damn dinosaur; it's bad enough accepting this as we age. To have some little brainy-act get on your computer and delete items like malware & spyware that your antivirus security protection didn't see--makes a person of my age feel obsolete.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy spoiling the hell out of these little rascals and sending them home for my children to straighten out.

Bump. Why are places like the Steelyard and Lift unable to find any tenants at all for their ground level retail? Is it worth waiting for the right tenant?

I don't think we've got anywhere near the population density downtown that we need to support that kind of retail.

The problem is that we don't have enough cheap housing in the area that will fill up with regular folks. Everyone who builds is aiming for the top income earners, and they're all targeting the same people. There are only so many people in their mid 20s to early 30s who are willing to spend 2 grand a month to live in the trendiest place.

I understand that everybody wants to maximize their investment, and we don't have much in the way of older housing stock downtown that could be rented for cheaper. But until we get the density that comes with that, we just don't have enough bodies in that area to support a lot of retail. Get an extra 20,000 people living within a mile of Devon tower, even if they aren't rich Millennials who spend money at all the hippest places, and you'll get your retail.

I don't think we've got anywhere near the population density downtown that we need to support that kind of retail.

The problem is that we don't have enough cheap housing in the area that will fill up with regular folks. Everyone who builds is aiming for the top income earners, and they're all targeting the same people. There are only so many people in their mid 20s to early 30s who are willing to spend 2 grand a month to live in the trendiest place.

I understand that everybody wants to maximize their investment, and we don't have much in the way of older housing stock downtown that could be rented for cheaper. But until we get the density that comes with that, we just don't have enough bodies in that area to support a lot of retail. Get an extra 20,000 people living within a mile of Devon tower, even if they aren't rich Millennials who spend money at all the hippest places, and you'll get your retail.

and yet all of the apts fill up

and yet all of the apts fill up
And yet the retail spaces are included in the new developments not because of demand, but out of force.

So there’s Not enough residents and workers downtown too make it a big shopping area. And, the retail we do have is scattered all over, so there’s no synergy ... a little on Automobile Alley, and a tiny amount in Midtown, but that’s it.

It's important to include those spaces for retail, though, for when we do need them.

I think there may be some odd requirements or space-use issues with some of the retail spots downtown. Like I don't understand why the spaces under Maywood Lofts in Deep Deuce struggle to land tenants. Simple things like a counter-service food place would do well in those, yet all we have are private offices, a hair salon, and a very high-end apparel store. Why is there not a Chipotle, or a Subway, or a small icecream joint in there? My guess is there could be restrictions because of zoning or HOA specifications - specifically with food service.

Deep Deuce is the densest-population neighborhood in the city and the retail spaces there seem to struggle still. The space next to Stag, the spot Whiskey Biscuit is now in, the Urban Johnnie space before this newly announced tenant, the spots in Maywood Apartments along Walnut, just now are getting going.

You include them to allow for growth. I'd imagine those unit look better to companies once that parking lot adjacent to Steelyard is populated with a like minded project. Then you have an organically grown, shopping area -- in a highly desirable area. Let them sit. They will enhance the neighborhood soon enough.

You include them to allow for growth. I'd imagine those unit look better to companies once that parking lot adjacent to Steelyard is populated with a like minded project. Then you have an organically grown, shopping area -- in a highly desirable area. Let them sit. They will enhance the neighborhood soon enough.
That’s all well and good, but in the meantime the developers and owners pay to have long term vacant space while everyone criticizes them for having empty spaces at street level. And we wonder why they prefer to build in the suburbs where they don’t experience the same overhead.

There are only so many bars, restaurants and coffee shops that the small population downtown needs. AA is the only real area trying to diversify. We need to really promote areas and invite citizens from all over the city to come shop instead of implying suburbanites are all stupid and we don’t want them. We need unique destination shops clustered together with appeal to a broader range of people. Then advertise and educate in other areas of town to get them interested in spending time and money downtown.

and yet all of the apts fill up

They don't overbuild, sure. But how long have they been building The Hill? How many vacant lots sit where The Brownstones were supposed to be? Everybody is aiming at the highest possible income level, and that's limiting how many people can move downtown. I understand that developers get the most return on their investment with those high end projects, but that's why we don't have a lot of street level retail.

They don't overbuild, sure. But how long have they been building The Hill? How many vacant lots sit where The Brownstones were supposed to be? Everybody is aiming at the highest possible income level, and that's limiting how many people can move downtown. I understand that developers get the most return on their investment with those high end projects, but that's why we don't have a lot of street level retail.
Uh...how many apartments have been built out and are coming online downtown vs for sale units? Not the high end for sale units stifling retail. We can’t get retail in the ground level of the apartment buildings we are building... most stands empty even when the living units fill.

Uh...how many apartments have been built out and are coming online downtown vs for sale units? Not the high end for sale units stifling retail. We can’t get retail in the ground level of the apartment buildings we are building... most stands empty even when the living units fill.
That doesn’t seem all that out of the ordinary. Even new apartment buildings they’ve built on Hollywood BLVD(I live in one) have taken some time for commercial tenants to locate there. Same thing in DTLA. For some reason commercial tenants are slower to fill than apartments. But I know a very nice building across from me was built and many spaces there sat vacant for nearly a year before finally filling their commercial spaces.

I am not sure how common it is in other cities.

Uh...how many apartments have been built out and are coming online downtown vs for sale units? Not the high end for sale units stifling retail. We can’t get retail in the ground level of the apartment buildings we are building... most stands empty even when the living units fill.

The point about the expensive for-sale housing is to show that developers are targeting a very small percentage of the population. That is why our downtown population isn't that big. Yes, every apartment complex that has been built so far has been filling up pretty well (at least as far as I know). My point is, that's still not enough people for the retail we want. You know how I know this? Because we still have lots of empty storefronts.

I think we need three times as many people living downtown, maybe more, before retail will really be supported. But you aren't going to get those numbers anytime soon at the current rate of development. But developers don't want to overbuild. Why did they build the Jones Assembly the way they did, instead of 5 times as big? Why do we have one Steelyard instead of seven all crammed together? Because there are only so many people willing to pay those prices to live there.

Developers here have done a good job at gauging what the market will support. It may very well be that they can't build new and rent for what they'd charge in the suburbs. That's possible. But you need a lot more people for that retail, that's just how it is.

The point about the expensive for-sale housing is to show that developers are targeting a very small percentage of the population. That is why our downtown population isn't that big. Yes, every apartment complex that has been built so far has been filling up pretty well (at least as far as I know). My point is, that's still not enough people for the retail we want. You know how I know this? Because we still have lots of empty storefronts.

I think we need three times as many people living downtown, maybe more, before retail will really be supported. But you aren't going to get those numbers anytime soon at the current rate of development. But developers don't want to overbuild. Why did they build the Jones Assembly the way they did, instead of 5 times as big? Why do we have one Steelyard instead of seven all crammed together? Because there are only so many people willing to pay those prices to live there.

Developers here have done a good job at gauging what the market will support. It may very well be that they can't build new and rent for what they'd charge in the suburbs. That's possible. But you need a lot more people for that retail, that's just how it is.
So, what price points should they build to to bring in population with demographics to spur retail?

So, what price points should they build to to bring in population with demographics to spur retail?

I don't know that it's economically feasible for them to target a lower price point. I think we need to provide something for that segment of the population, but without a lot of existing housing stock I don't know that it will happen. I'm not saying there's a great solution, I'm just saying we don't have enough bodies (and aren't on track to get enough bodies) to support a lot of retail. We're probably just going to have to wait until a lot of the vacant lots around downtown fill up with Steelyard-like apartments. When land gets more limited, we may start seeing taller, denser housing get built. However, that obviously pushes the prices up.

Now personally, I think the city needs to start a program to encourage more affordable, denser housing in areas adjacent to downtown. The most obvious places to me seem like west of Classen between Reno and Linwood (the Purina factory neighborhood), the Washington Park area (east of 235 and north of Dolese), and east of Shields on each side of the river (the Pull-Apart Yard and east of Wiley Post Park area). A lot of these are pretty run down neighborhoods very close to downtown.

Give TIF money to fill these areas with 2-3 story rowhouses, targeting an Ideal Homes price point. If you could live within walking distance of downtown, for the same price that you'd get a home in Moore or Norman or Edmond, I think a lot of people would choose that. Not everyone, of course, but not everyone has to. At that price point, you'd have a much larger population base to draw from. You're looking at adding potentially several thousand residents to downtown who couldn't afford to even think about it before.

Tiff's Treats -- a cookie delivery chain -- is taking space at the Steelyard:

https://www.cookiedelivery.com/

Very good cookies! They deliver them warm.

How's the occupancy at Steelyard and other downtown apartments?

How's the occupancy at Steelyard and other downtown apartments?

Very good.

Rents continue to go up.

Good news. I was particularly worried about the Steelyard for some reason. But glad to hear it's doing well - I doubt Gary Brooks would need that headache right now if it weren't!