http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/steelyard020417a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/steelyard020417b.jpg

First time in East Bricktown in a long time, and I was really surprised at how large this all seems in person. Pretty incredible.

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First time in East Bricktown in a long time, and I was really surprised at how large this all seems in person. Pretty incredible.

13547135481354913550

It looks amazing. Drove through it yesterday. That entire area looks amazing.

The steel between the floors at the Steelyard is a breath of fresh air.

The steel between the floors at the Steelyard is a breath of fresh air.

Believe that's actually the Hyatt Place and the AC. The Steelyard Apartments seems to be concrete for the first floor retail along Sheridan. The rest is stick built.

Believe that's actually the Hyatt Place and the AC. The Steelyard Apartments seems to be concrete for the first floor retail along Sheridan. The rest is stick built.

Only the retail space along Sheraton in concrete to give those spaces high ceilings.

The rest of the development is stick built with apartments on the ground floor.

Pete are there any plans to add some vegetation to this area once the apartments and hotels are built? One of my favorite parts about the Deep Deuce is the nice little canopy that they've grown over the years around their apartments, especially on the stretch of NE 2nd.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/steelyard021917a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/steelyard021917b.jpg

I like that the parking garage is painted to match the apartment buildings.

Yeah, that's a nice touch.

the biggest thing i second guess about this development and all the others within its proximity is how much of all this new
construction is driven by real demand and what would happen when that demand is fully satisfied?
i support downtown renewal but can't help to feel cautious about maintaining balance with real, practical business conditions.

the biggest thing i second guess about this development and all the others within its proximity is how much of all this new
construction is driven by real demand and what would happen when that demand is fully satisfied?
i support downtown renewal but can't help to feel cautious about maintaining balance with real, practical business conditions.

Real Demand probably cannot be known at this point, because we're talking about a 50+ year rejection of urban living, and looking at reversing that trend (though other cities provide pretty solid track records on the matter)

There's a price that comes with "new" anywhere that it happens in the city. That so much "new" is happening downtown requires knowing whether or not said new is occurring at an inflated rate due to the downtown renaissance or if a portion of what would normally be happening in suburban areas has moved downtown. If the latter, then it's probably real demand.

Ultimately, it's too difficult to tell at this point, but I hardly think that Steelyard is going too far. I do believe there is a reason we have far less residential units that will be coming online in the next 4 years than we have had over the previous 4 years, and that's because developers want to see the demand meet the supply. If all these new complexes maintain very high occupancy rates, I wouldn't be surprised if 2500 units are announced between now and the end of the decade (that would be a 50% increase in supply)

Real Demand probably cannot be known at this point, because we're talking about a 50+ year rejection of urban living, and looking at reversing that trend (though other cities provide pretty solid track records on the matter)

There's a price that comes with "new" anywhere that it happens in the city. That so much "new" is happening downtown requires knowing whether or not said new is occurring at an inflated rate due to the downtown renaissance or if a portion of what would normally be happening in suburban areas has moved downtown. If the latter, then it's probably real demand.

Ultimately, it's too difficult to tell at this point, but I hardly think that Steelyard is going too far. I do believe there is a reason we have far less residential units that will be coming online in the next 4 years than we have had over the previous 4 years, and that's because developers want to see the demand meet the supply. If all these new complexes maintain very high occupancy rates, I wouldn't be surprised if 2500 units are announced between now and the end of the decade (that would be a 50% increase in supply)
This rate of DT for lease apartments and the limited for sale units is not IMO sustainable. OKC is not experiencing sufficient growth in threeol areas that drive and sustain housing, population growth, new jobs and increasd salaries.

Although OKC has experienced gains in each of these areas, we have seen layoffs in the O&G industry I am still skeptical that Sandrige Energy will survive), population growth has slowed and although salaries have risen, OKC still lags behind other cities in terms of per capita income.

Amazes me that given the strong Republican dominance, the City/State fails to make private sector job creation and retention alongwith education a priority.
Having said all of that I believe OKC is building an unsustainable level of apartments without significant growth or improvements in the aforementioned areas

^

OKC"s unemployment rate is still under the national average and the population growth has been very steady as well.

If things that can be measured are going to support an argument, might want to look them up first.

From what I understand, the downtown apartments are all still very full. I don't think the waiting lists are as long as they had been, but I don't think the Steelyard coming online is going to cause too many problems. It's the last of the big apartment complexes that have been proposed.

Now is probably a good time to take a bit of a breather and see how the market is doing. I agree with Teo that if rental rates stay high after the Steelyard opens, that we'll probably see a lot more apartments announced. Developers here are historically very cautious and risk averse, so I'm sure some of them need a little reassurance before they move forward on anything.

What downtown really needs is more for-sale housing. I'm wondering if another round of apartments and hotels going in might push some of the older buildings to convert over to for-sale condos. Oversupply in the market can be good if it forces an underperformer to get creative and fill a different role in the market. As long as developments like the Metropolitan fill up as soon as they open, that's all developers will want to build. No risk.

I live at Metropolitan currently and my impression is that it is very nearly full; mainly the very large (and expensive) units are still empty. I know that, as of this summer, there were waiting lists at Maywood I, Level, and Mosaic, and immediate availability at DD apartments (though that was fairly limited). With Metro and Maywood II online I think there is more slack in the market now, but I don't know exactly how much. (Visually, Maywood II doesn't look super full, and I don't know about Lift or the Edge). My point is that there is going to be a natural ebb in occupancy rates when 1 (or 2 or 3 or even 4!) fairly large apartment complexes open all at once, but the rental market in downtown and midtown still seems very healthy. Maybe this is boosterism but I'm not really concerned about Steelyard being successful.

I noticed for the likely the first time, Midtown Renaissance has several of their properties listed with units available. As most know, for the longest time they had so much interest they didn't even bother to return calls.

Still, from what is listed, it just looks like a handful of units that will likely go quickly.

I'm curious about LIFT. They don't seem very full and they still have the entire west section to bring on-line. But to be fair, their courtyard and pool are still not finished so by this summer I'm sure they will be then hopefully they can get leased up.

In the next few years, we're also going to have the streetcar go in, which will really improve access for people downtown. There appears to be a strong positive response to the streetcar, with several new developments announced along the route. This should increase demand for housing along that area as well.

I noticed for the likely the first time, Midtown Renaissance has several of their properties listed with units available. As most know, for the longest time they had so much interest they didn't even bother to return calls.

Still, from what is listed, it just looks like a handful of units that will likely go quickly.

I'm curious about LIFT. They don't seem very full and they still have the entire west section to bring on-line. But to be fair, their courtyard and pool are still not finished so by this summer I'm sure they will be then hopefully they can get leased up.

My coworker's daughter is about to move into the LIFT, and they are offering month-by-month which would make it seem like they have a decent amount still available.

Midtown Renaissance will do month-by-month, but the rate is increased and the have the right to not let that continue once they find someone to sign for a longer term.

Considering that the number of downtown rental units dramatically increased in a very short period of time, the downtown rental market still seems very strong.

It seems to have softened a bit but not as much as many doom and gloomers had predicted.

After Steelyard, there really aren't any big complexes on the horizon, part from the 4th & EKG project which in best case scenario won't be open for several more years.

I bet you'll see things start to tighten up again in about a year then more complexes announced. For now, any potential bigger developments seem to be taking a wait-and-see attitude.

In a recent talk by Steve he said that LIFT is not filling as they had hoped to the extent that they are not moving forward with a planned next phase. I also looked strongly at moving to LIFT, took two different days of tours of nearly every floor plan. There were plenty of empty apartments of each floor plan to show me.

In a recent talk by Steve he said that LIFT is not filling as they had hoped to the extent that they are not moving forward with a planned next phase. I also looked strongly at moving to LIFT, took two different days of tours of nearly every floor plan. There were plenty of empty apartments of each floor plan to show me.

That is absolutely not why they decided not to move forward with L2. In fact they made the decision before LIFT was even open.

There was a big issue with getting variances to build L2 and then, as well all know, LIFT experienced massive construction delays.

Milhaus relocated their representative that was brought to OKC some time ago and has pretty much decided not to pursue other OKC projects, and all that happened long before much of LIFT was even open.

Good to know. There was still a surprisingly high number vacant units considering the excellent quality and amenities.

Good to know. There was still a surprisingly high number vacant units considering the excellent quality and amenities.

They had lots of people signed up but then kept missing deadlines so those tenants moved on.

Then, most the units opened around summertime and the pool as nowhere close to open. And I was just by there and there is still a bunch of construction on the west side.

All that should be wrapping up soon along with the pool and I bet they lease up pretty well this spring and summer.

And BTW, be very wary of the constant drumbeat from the Oklahoman on the supposed overbuilt nature of downtown housing.

That is being fed to them through cozy relationships with a few developers who want to promote this idea to protect their existing investments. And at the same time, most of them have other projects they are planning.

It's smart on their part but that story keeps being put out there as fact without any numbers or empirical information.

Of course when you dump 2,000 units on the market within a year it has an impact but the fact that there are still plenty of plans in the pipeline by people with real skin in the game is much more telling IMO.


And as for LIFT, it's easy to blame 'the market' but if anyone has been paying attention you know there were lots of self-inflicted problems there and at the same time Metropolitan seems to be doing very well.

We need to think about people in the metro relocating downtown too. It seems too often we're worried only about population growth sustaining downtown living. But you also need to account for people that already live in the area to change their lifestyle from suburban to downtown, urban living. No one likes sprawl and a good way to slow sprawl is to have people wanting to live downtown. That's gonna work better than putting moratoriums on building out past certain limits etc. We're starting to see more amenities downtown but with people living downtown we're going to need more downtown retail, groceries etc.

And as for LIFT, it's easy to blame 'the market' but if anyone has been paying attention you know there were lots of self-inflicted problems there and at the same time Metropolitan seems to be doing very well.

Agreed! When i was looking to move downtown/midtown area i couldn't get anyone at LIFT to return a call/e-mail.

One of the cool things about lift NOW, is that they do tours 7-days a week, unlike any other apartment complex downtown that I called.

After Steelyard, there really aren't any big complexes on the horizon, part from the 4th & EKG project which in best case scenario won't be open for several more years.


Pete I agree with almost all your points you've made today, but this quote seems to be ignoring the pretty vast # of apartments in the pipeline around 21C.

Pete I agree with almost all your points you've made today, but this quote seems to be ignoring the pretty vast # of apartments in the pipeline around 21C.

Right. And the 200 units at First National Center.

But, the Village West project won't be on-line for about 2 years and while large, is only 320 units would only represent about a 3% increase in downtown living units.

By that time, you can almost bet vacancy rates should be really firm; maybe even tight.

^

OKC"s unemployment rate is still under the national average and the population growth has been very steady as well.

If things that can be measured are going to support an argument, might want to look them up first.

Please READ my statement
although OKC has experienced gains in each of these areas, we have seen layoffs in the O&G industry I am still skeptical that Sandrige Energy will survive), population growth has slowed and although salaries have risen, OKC still lags behind other cities in terms of per capita income.

Please READ my statement
although OKC has experienced gains in each of these areas, we have seen layoffs in the O&G industry I am still skeptical that Sandrige Energy will survive), population growth has slowed and although salaries have risen, OKC still lags behind other cities in terms of per capita income.

You can't compare per capita income with out also looking at the average cost of living, which Oklahoma consistently remains near the top of the list.

Please READ my statement
although OKC has experienced gains in each of these areas, we have seen layoffs in the O&G industry I am still skeptical that Sandrige Energy will survive), population growth has slowed and although salaries have risen, OKC still lags behind other cities in terms of per capita income.
I read your statement just as I'm sure that Pete did. I agree with him.

And here is another reason why your doom and gloom statements aren't accurate by someone who is in a position to know.

http://m.newsok.com/article/5539315


"Yes, we've had a decline in the oil and gas business," he said. "Companies like RKI Exploration (& Production), bought by WPX (Energy). They had 70,000 square feet in Oklahoma Tower. It's available for sublease. They moved to Tulsa. Some of that space has already been backfilled.
"You had Williams Communications, Central Park, over 100,000 square feet of space came on the market. Range Resources, 80,000 square feet, Enterprise Plaza. The space is on the market — a third of it has already been pre-leased. So when you dump 500,000 square feet on the market, to me, it's nothing to get concerned about."

Please READ my statement
although OKC has experienced gains in each of these areas, we have seen layoffs in the O&G industry I am still skeptical that Sandrige Energy will survive), population growth has slowed and although salaries have risen, OKC still lags behind other cities in terms of per capita income.

be as skeptical as you want but their balance sheet looks fine

Just speaking in general here, OKC will never grow fast enough, never be diverse enough, never be good enough, etc. to some people. It's one thing to bring healthy skepticism, and another to be constantly negative and paint something as just never good enough more times than one. To each their own.

Nothing you can say or do, but time will prove that OKC's path was the right one all along.

I read your statement just as I'm sure that Pete did. I agree with him.

And here is another reason why your doom and gloom statements aren't accurate by someone who is in a position to know.

http://m.newsok.com/article/5539315

This was a very well couched analysis. taking 1m Sq feet out of the equation is skewing the real data as well as changes in Linclon plaza. He conveniently went from25 % vacacancy to 14-15 % that in business accounting is called "cooking the books". We know OG & E failed to build the much ballyhooed HQ, We know the new tower is not fully leased, but these are beside the original point. The question was for lease apartments and I still contend that OKC is quikcly reaching a point of saturation given the slowed poplulation growth, lack of diversification in industry to attact new residents needing apartments (esp younger people). The oft cited low cost of living as a justification for low incomes is IMO flawed. With all involved citing increased rents and cost to build per sq foot I posit that without income commensurate with rental rate growth or better population growth especially in the rental market demographic, vacancies will increase. the failure of Tinker to find 1000 engineers to fill needed positons suggests to me the focus of conversation in OKC should be shifted to Education and creation/retention of Jobs . My comment about Sandridge is more about the distinct lack of diversity in OKC economy that hinges an inordinate amount on O&G. The other large area is Government ( strange since OK is so Red). The State economy is Tanking with budget cuts on every hand and the moral landscape of your elected officials is hideous ( one seems to resign, go the jail every other day)

People on this board can call me negative all they want, I really do not care. I have an opinion often not like others but never the less my opinion. I can only hope the owners of this board respect the 1st amendment right to free speech.

He took 1 million square feet out at First National because it is no longer office space nor will it be again.

And the new tower is 100% leased apart from restaurant space in the lobby and I've heard they've got a deal for that, too.

I could go on but you are not dealing in facts so it's pointless.

The ignore button is there for a reason, everybody.

The ignore button is there for a reason, everybody.

Big LOL

Some people don't lie or are ignorant of truths, they just offer alternative facts. And we all know opinion = fact. :)

Metal framing in the retail space now:
https://s11.postimg.org/y19qmezmr/IMG_8915.jpg

My math was off in my previous comment about how much the West Village project would impact the overall downtown housing market.

Our updated summary (http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=29315&p=524906#post524906) now shows 5,221 units built, under construction or proposed.

The 345 units at West Village (previously the Residences at 21c) would represent about 6.6% of that number.

View of the painted garage

13621

I'm excited about this project. I think it's going to look great. I want them to hurry and be done.

I'm excited about this project. I think it's going to look great. I want them to hurry and be done.

I bet they open the western section first while they continue to finish the units on the east side.

I bet they open the western section first while they continue to finish the units on the east side.

I assume it's too early, especially with the time it took Gary Brooks and team to lease the retail space at The Edge, but are there any rumors regarding what will fill the retail space at Steelyard? While there are bars/restaurants close by and the new hotels will provide some options, I would love to see a bar or restaurant or two go in there. Would be a selling point for future tenants (except those that live immediately above said bar or restaurant) and would be great for concert-goers at the Criterion.

I assume it's too early, especially with the time it took Gary Brooks and team to lease the retail space at The Edge, but are there any rumors regarding what will fill the retail space at Steelyard? While there are bars/restaurants close by and the new hotels will provide some options, I would love to see a bar or restaurant or two go in there. Would be a selling point for future tenants (except those that live immediately above said bar or restaurant) and would be great for concert-goers at the Criterion.

Steve and the Brooks squad have hinted that some of what is gonna go into that space is very exciting but they don't want to say anything till it's 110% confirmed.

Steve and the Brooks squad have hinted that some of what is gonna go into that space is very exciting but they don't want to say anything till it's 110% confirmed.

Finally a Hard Rock Cafe! Fingers crossed!

Panera Bread! Yes!

Finally a Hard Rock Cafe! Fingers crossed!
That'd be awesome if it were 1987.

That'd be awesome if it were 1987.

Same exact thing that ran through my head when I read this, except I think it was 1989 for me! LOL

That'd be awesome if it were 1987.

Fine, fine. Bubba Gump's it is! Woot!

Schlotzskys...yeah BUDDY!

Schlotzskys...yeah BUDDY!

definitely some kind of sandwich shop!

We really need a Big Ed's downtown.

This would be a good location for a Shake Shack. It fits where they usually are.

We really need a Big Ed's downtown.


Are there any of those around any more? I know there were 4-5 at one time but I don't think I have seen one since?

Are there any of those around any more? I know there were 4-5 at one time but I don't think I have seen one since?

there's one left at nw 122nd & penn...

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/steelyard030517.jpg

Learned today that the first units at Steelyard -- those in the western part of the development -- should be ready for occupancy this summer and that all units should be complete by November.