Every building that goes up in the downtown area contributes to accelerated growth. With places like the Edge, and the renovated boutique hotels, we'll have hundreds more people downtown than we did before. That means more restaurants that are open later, it means the appearance of convenience stores, it means more amenities for people in the area.

It also means fewer open plots of land. Downtown OKC has large sections of grassy field or old torn up pavement scattered throughout. I think hopes for downtown residential skyscrapers will remain vain hopes until we have more density. As happy as I am with the developments in Deep Deuce and Midtown, these are just the low-hanging fruit. No one is going to build a residential high-rise until the downtown housing market is better established and the low-hanging fruit is gone. These developments we're seeing right now are necessary, they are the precursors to the 25 story residential towers we'd all love to see.

My completely uneducated, uninformed guess is that Deep Deuce and Midtown will need to fill up, and stay filled up for 5 years or more, before investors start to consider residential towers. Perhaps a few floors of housing on top of the new parking garage on Main will help ease investor fears. But we're talking about a type of housing that hasn't been proven yet in this market. It works in other markets, but it hasn't been seen here yet. If I'm an investor, and I know for a fact that I'm going to make money on something like the Edge or LEVEL, versus taking a gamble on a high-rise, I'm going with the sure thing. No one is going to build something like The VUE above, until they are convinced they will make money.

I'd say that Deep Deuce and Midtown will be full 5 years from now. Automobile Alley will be fully developed. Core to Shore will still be in planning stages and no one will be building there yet. The new OG&E tower will be going up. A new Devon tower will be going up. A Continental Resources tower will be going up. And any new company that has moved to OKC will at least be filling up these other companies' older spaces. It's quite realistic we'll be seeing 3 new towers downtown in that time. Once all this has taken place, barring an oil crash or any economic disasters, then I think the city will be ready for high-rise residential. Maybe they start building one of these in 10 years, but I don't think it's realistic to expect one sooner than that.

Unless, of course, Devon decides to build one just on a whim or something, some combination more office space/residential.

I get your point, but one could argue that it HAS been proven. The Classen, 360 and Lakeshore Tower have been around 5 years or more and have been very successful. The Tiffany is supposively going that route as well.

Also, I think urban development is exponential. Once you get the ball rolling, it gets larger and faster. Saying Deep Deuce is 5 years from being full, I think is underestimating. That ball is quickly getting larger and faster. 2-3 more large developments (other than the few that are planned), and Deep Deuce will be full.

I would think if Continental builds a new office tower that Residential high-rise is going to happen. It seems to me that having a Downtown high-rise that will be largely used by DVN, CLR, SD (hopefully), OGE, and all the other downtown businesses makes a good case for at least one residential high rise coming soon.

Museum Tower in Dallas is 42 stories @ 560 ft. It has 125 Condos
The Vue in Charlotte is 50 stories @ 600 ft. It has 409 Units
The Austonian in Austin is 56 stories @ 683 ft. It has 188 Units

I think a 400 to 600 foot building w/ 200 to 275 units would be perfectly feasible and a realistically good investment. In the OKC market I think it would need to be both lease units and condos. Say it was a 40 stories @ 480ft, then I think it's realistic to see 200 units, ~50 of which are condos and 150 of which start out as lease units. Maybe even a mixed-use, part hotel/part residential high rise could be built.

Hey...and the perfect site is right there on the Stage Center site next to whatever other tower is going up there.

Also, I think urban development is exponential. Once you get the ball rolling, it gets larger and faster. Saying Deep Deuce is 5 years from being full, I think is underestimating. That ball is quickly getting larger and faster. 2-3 more large developments (other than the few that are planned), and Deep Deuce will be full.

I'm trying to be conservative in my estimates. When I say DD being full, I mean The Hill will be completed, the Brownstones finished out, any reasonable empty space will be filled. It will be at the point where we will have to tear something down to build something else. I think it might take a little longer than 5 years for all that to take place. You'd have to be in a position where the developers are losing money by not building.

Let me put it this way, I will be surprised if a residential tower is announced within the next two or three years. I will be equally surprised if one is not announced within 10. We have ample space for new towers downtown. There are a lot of crappy little one story buildings and surface parking lots scattered around that could be replaced. As I walk around downtown, I see lots of places where I say "we could put something there, or there, or there..." That's why high rises developed in the first place, because it was cheaper to go up rather than out. Right now, it's still cheaper in downtown OKC to go out. It's cheaper to build a 3, 4, or 5 story apartment complex like Legacy or LEVEL than build something like the Regency. As those empty spaces fill, I think we become more and more likely to get developments that go up.

Eventually the Cox Center will be torn down, and that's a huge amount of empty space that we could fill. You could put 3 or 4 towers in that space and have room left over. That's probably 15+ years down the road, however. I'd like to see us get more infill and take up a lot of the empty spaces we have before we started on that.

Edit: Basically everything on Hudson north of the Museum of Art until you get to the bus station could be replaced by new towers quite easily. There might be two or three buildings worth saving, not because of any architectural merit, but just because they are clean and functional little office buildings. The rest of it is junk or surface parking. I think we could squeeze in another 20 midrise to high-rise buildings without tearing down much of anything. And that's part of why it's going to take some time before a high-rise residential building becomes profitable.

cox center future site of the new downtown arena

cox center future site of the new downtown arena
I always saw the CCC a great site for more business and commercial towers. If I understood correctly, the Cox Convention Center would be a good site for a new arena? I don't see why we would build a new arena when we have a perfectly good functioning one across the street.

On another subject, with the core to shore and central park developement, I think they play a big role in expanding OKC's skyline, weather people start building
residential, commerical, or corporate. Looking at the Central park site, I cannot but think of all the potential the sites east and west to it have. 5-6 story apartment complexes all along the east side I think would be ideal for that area. On the west, more residential of course, but it would make an enourmous impact if they were 200-300 ft tall.

I am doubtful that the Cox center will be torn down in the next 30 years.

There is a big internal meeting this week at CLR to update management about plans for additional space as they are running out of room already, and are unable to get the law firm to at the top to move out. Take that as you will.

I always saw the CCC a great site for more business and commercial towers. If I understood correctly, the Cox Convention Center would be a good site for a new arena? I don't see why we would build a new arena when we have a perfectly good functioning one across the street.

On another subject, with the core to shore and central park developement, I think they play a big role in expanding OKC's skyline, weather people start building
residential, commerical, or corporate. Looking at the Central park site, I cannot but think of all the potential the sites east and west to it have. 5-6 story apartment complexes all along the east side I think would be ideal for that area. On the west, more residential of course, but it would make an enourmous impact if they were 200-300 ft tall.

Okc will need a New arena in 2030

I am doubtful that the Cox center will be torn down in the next 30 years.
But if it was, would we actually need a whole new arena, I do think it will be a bit out-dated.


Okc will need a New arena in 2030
But that's pretty soon when you think about it. Maybe 2050

Cox will be torn down 6 months after the new convention center opens. You can take that to the bank.

We might get a new mid/high rise residential tower in the next 12 to 18 months but once streetcar rail start getting put in the ground you are going to be shocked how much residential construction takes off. They won't be able to build it fast enough.

Just the facts, I could see what you mean about the Cox center if all there was in there was convention space but there is an arena that gets used frequently. It is my understanding that the new convention center will not have an arena. If that is true, then we need the Cox arena until another one is built.

SMG manages both Cox and Chesapeake arenas. Any chance they can intertwine all of the current events that go on? Other than the Barons, it's not like Sesame Street and cheer competitions can't be moved to the State Fair arena. Also, this is why parking garages need to be built between now and whenever the new convention center gets built and this site is torn down. How many spaces are there underneath the Cox Center?

There is a big internal meeting this week at CLR to update management about plans for additional space as they are running out of room already, and are unable to get the law firm to at the top to move out. Take that as you will.

I still think they are going to buy the Stage Center site and build a new HQ tower.

But of course, they have a short-term problem as well as best case, a new building is a 2-3 year project.

They will probably end up like Devon was before they built: Scattered all over downtown in various buildings.

Just the facts, I could see what you mean about the Cox center if all there was in there was convention space but there is an arena that gets used frequently. It is my understanding that the new convention center will not have an arena. If that is true, then we need the Cox arena until another one is built.

The Peake can handle everything OKC is capable of throwing at it.

There is no such place as the Peake. You must be talking to Bob Barry Jr.

There is no such place as the Peake. You must be talking to Bob Barry Jr.

The Peake is at least a commonly used nickname, it is Barry Trammel who tends to make up his own nicknames that no one else will ever use.

The Peake is at least a commonly used nickname, it is Barry Trammel who tends to make up his own nicknames that no one else will ever use.

Like the 'Boomers', I hate that when he throws that out there.......

There is a big internal meeting this week at CLR to update management about plans for additional space as they are running out of room already, and are unable to get the law firm to at the top to move out. Take that as you will.

This could be Tower # 1. stay tuned....

I still think they are going to buy the Stage Center site and build a new HQ tower.

But of course, they have a short-term problem as well as best case, I new building is a 2-3 year project.

They will probably end up like Devon was before they built: Scattered all over downtown in various buildings.

Would it be in FNC best or worst interest if CLR occupied space in there? Would it give Yash enough money to just hold on but not make upgrades or would it be the income needed to make necessary improvements?

I think chase tower still had some space open. I bet that is where continental has their first overflow.

They may overflow into the cheasapeake campus lol

With the Chesapeake situation so fluid, if there is an energy company looking towards OKC for relocation the Chesapeake campus could in fact become an attractive option vs building a new tower. They could acquire a company and a hq at the same time. I could see this affecting the prospects of a new tower downtown ala OPUBCO sale and AF.

The worst nightmare I can imagine is an acquisition of CHK (I know the board is discounting this possibility, but I wouldn't rule it out). That campus would put such a huge amount of class A space on the market that it would be years before the city could absorb it. The ripple effect would without question be very detrimental to the downtown market, since companies who might have leased or built downtown might be able to get into that place on the cheap. We ALL have to hold our breath and hope that the new board and new CEO charts a course that stabilizes that company and keeps them rooted firmly where they are now.

Even if Chesapeake was to be bought out its doubtful they would abandon their presence in OKC at least in the short run. The absolute worst case scenario would be a Chapter 7 bankruptcy.

There is a big internal meeting this week at CLR to update management about plans for additional space as they are running out of room already, and are unable to get the law firm to at the top to move out. Take that as you will.

Anyone have any info on this ???

One of the biggest problems with the Chesapeake campus is that it is not easily subdivided to multiple tenants. While companies have gotten very good at 'right-sizing' their employees, some are very poor at creating a scalable physical workplace. I always think back to the Cisco Campus with large non-productive buildings just sitting there empty because they will never have the employee count they once had and no company wants to lease a building that looks exactly like the other 20 buildings right next to it. At least with an offer tower you can lease un-used floors, and even subdivide individual floors.

One of the biggest problems with the Chesapeake campus is that it is not easily subdivided to multiple tenants. While companies have gotten very good at 'right-sizing' their employees, some are very poor at creating a scalable physical workplace. I always think back to the Cisco Campus with large non-productive buildings just sitting there empty because they will never have the employee count they once had and no company wants to lease a building that looks exactly like the other 20 buildings right next to it. At least with an offer tower you can lease un-used floors, and even subdivide individual floors.

Really? I don't think that would be true at CHK-land. The entire structure could be changed and buildings separately leased if necessary. With Classen Curve adjacent, I think the area could easily develop into a walkable community (by easily, I mean with a little extra investment in a few items). The visual impact of the CHK buildings isn't so odd that no one would want to lease them.

There is a big internal meeting this week at CLR to update management about plans for additional space as they are running out of room already, and are unable to get the law firm to at the top to move out. Take that as you will.

Anyone know what this was about last week ?

While we're waiting around for some magical tower announcement...... I'll post a random pic of NYC:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8090/8430623702_856e818baf_o.jpg

Free lollipop to anyone who can tell me exactly how many buildings are in that shot.

39?

6031, check it, and mail me my lollipop porfavor

I had forgotten the Jersey City/Hoboken skyline was that impressive in its own right.

Over 9,000!

42. Of course it is 42.

Ah! So that was the question...

5,212.

I had forgotten the Jersey City/Hoboken skyline was that impressive in its own right.

I agree. Have you been to Hoboken recently? Amazing little city and quite the trendy place to live these days in metropolitan New York City. It's a very expensive place to live but it's the place I'd like to be if I weren't here in OKC. The Hoboken Terminal is a sight to behold, Grand Central couldn't have been busier in its heyday. To me, it's the little city that could and has a certain quaintness about it that takes me back in time and is there a city with a better view? From the shores across the river, Manhattan just looks stunning.

"Oh cool, maybe there's an relevant update on the Mystery Tower thread..."

New York...

I have spent time in Hoboken. A good friend lived in Greenwich Village and she moved across the river because it's a little cheaper. She's a few blocks from the ferry, 5 minutes by train to lower Manhattan. I was very, very impressed with Hoboken. Great place!

OK...realize this was off topic, but really, this whole thread has been off the rails for so long that I don't feel that bad :)

Home of Frank Sinatra so it has to be cool.

"Oh cool, maybe there's an relevant update on the Mystery Tower thread..."

New York...

There has never been a relevant post in this thread

There has never been a relevant post in this thread

You mean to tell me people actually believed that there was a new tower in the works???? Its been what almost two years since the start of the mystery tower thread.( if it really was in the works at the starting of this thread then ground should have been broken or at least an announcement) LOL of course a tower will be built in the future, my prediction is 2018 give or take a few years :) . this thread will probably be still going on, then a bunch of people would be like " oh I told you so, or you heard it here first that there was plans" lol

Yeah, this tower thing has become a joke. Let's close this up and have one less thread to check.

Yeah, this tower thing has become a joke. Let's close this up and have one less thread to check.

+1

You mean to tell me people actually believed that there was a new tower in the works???? Its been what almost two years since the start of the mystery tower thread.( if it really was in the works at the starting of this thread then ground should have been broken or at least an announcement) LOL of course a tower will be built in the future, my prediction is 2018 give or take a few years :) . this thread will probably be still going on, then a bunch of people would be like " oh I told you so, or you heard it here first that there was plans" lol

It has been less than a year.

Hasn't Steve in his online chat mentioned that there are processes in the works right now but he just can't comment on them or do an article about them quite yet? How many years do you think the process took to wrap up the site for the Devon Tower? Truth be told, this thread was started 363 days ago...not 2 years ago. No time has gone by at all.

post edit:

I hate to do this, but this thread needs to get back on track for speculation. In the 'Project Map' tab, on this site
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8089/8451026969_ed80bcbb13.jpg
it shows 'Future Sandridge Project'.

What I would like to speculate on is that it will not be a new tower for their future growth but that they're trying to hold on to this site to sell it to a residential developer. Think about how good of a spot this would be for a mid rise residential tower! You're more key to everything and anything in terms of being in the middle of it all.

Obviously if the streetcar is built down Broadway, this will be a big sell since it will be along the route.

IDK, but I got goosebumps thinking of a residential tower going in here and it would just bridge the gap even more between downtown and all the residential building going on in Maywood Park/Deep Deuce.

Hasn't Steve in his online chat mentioned that there are processes in the works right now but he just can't comment on them or do an article about them quite yet?

This is what Steve said in his Feb. 1 chat:

OklahomaNick -
10:48 a.m. How much of the mystery tower is speculation vs. actual inquiry work being done to find a site?
Steve Lackmeyer -
10:49 a.m. Proposals, land purchase bids, etc. are taking place.

Seems like the Mystery Tower is more than pure speculation, but not going as fast as many would want...

Hasn't Steve in his online chat mentioned that there are processes in the works right now but he just can't comment on them or do an article about them quite yet? How many years do you think the process took to wrap up the site for the Devon Tower? Truth be told, this thread was started 363 days ago...not 2 years ago. No time has gone by at all.

post edit:

I hate to do this, but this thread needs to get back on track for speculation. In the 'Project Map' tab, on this site
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8089/8451026969_ed80bcbb13.jpg
it shows 'Future Sandridge Project'.

What I would like to speculate on is that it will not be a new tower for their future growth but that they're trying to hold on to this site to sell it to a residential developer. Think about how good of a spot this would be for a mid rise residential tower! You're more key to everything and anything in terms of being in the middle of it all.

Obviously if the streetcar is built down Broadway, this will be a big sell since it will be along the route.

IDK, but I got goosebumps thinking of a residential tower going in here and it would just bridge the gap even more between downtown and all the residential building going on in Maywood Park/Deep Deuce.

I love the idea of a residential tower going here. Doubt it happens.

I love the idea of a residential tower going here. Doubt it happens.

That was your evil post since it was #666. Be gone evil spirit!!

So whats the word? Now none thinks we will get a new tower anytime soon? What happened at that meeting the other week?

Wasn't there talk about "fixing" EK Gaylord and 3rd St.?

I'm still thinking we hear something soon. Didn't continental make their announcement to move around this time of the year to their employees?? Think we could see a similar type meeting soon if they need more space? I do believe they are probably getting full as they seem to be hiring a lot I think....wishful thinking I guess. We need to just keep posting what we hear from people with connections and hope we see something develop publicly soon!

I'm still thinking we hear something soon. Didn't continental make their announcement to move around this time of the year to their employees?? Think we could see a similar type meeting soon if they need more space? I do believe they are probably getting full as they seem to be hiring a lot I think....wishful thinking I guess. We need to just keep posting what we hear from people with connections and hope we see something develop publicly soon!

I heard Devon was building a spec tower...which does make sense if you really think about...

I heard Devon was building a spec tower...which does make sense if you really think about...

A spec tower would be a good way to have vendors housed close by...

Yeah, this tower thing has become a joke. Let's close this up and have one less thread to check.

Is someone forcing you to check this thread? LOL

Is someone forcing you to check this thread? LOL

Haha, no. It's just a compulsive behavior. I see that bold thread title and I just have to click!

During last Friday's chat with Steve, he mentioned him and Brianna Bailey were working on a special project that we should see in a couple weeks.

"I've been taking some leave time to deal with some personal matters the past couple weeks. Brianna Bailey just started with the paper a couple of weeks ago. We're working on a special project that you should see in the next week or two. In the meantime, the energy team has been filling up the section with incredible coverage on the departure of Aubrey McClendon as CEO of Chesapeake Energy."

Not saying this has do with office tower, but there is the possibility, but evidently its something big.

Or it could just be a special section about the OPUBCO move?

I love how any vague reference gets posted here.

"Hey, man, I need to talk to you later..."

*Runs to computer to post comment to the mystery tower thread because he might be talking about a mystery tower...*