That is what you get for driving a car in a walkable city :)

I lived there for 2 months and never once got in a car. No kidding - not once.

Of course, I got a parking ticket in San Francisco about 23 years ago. I still haven't paid it.

Kind of hard, the express I was in Philadelphia was for a car...I bought a car up there, flew out and drove it back...

Scofflaw! :police:

-SRH_cFz-WM

JTF is the white whale.... who would have guessed?!

There is more and more news about Continental's rapid growth and a recent discovery could be huge.

I really think they are going to end up buying the Stage Center property and building a tower. And considering that the foundation is in the process of accepting proposals for that property, I would expect it to change hands soon.

If that site goes to Continental, it sits for a good while, especially after demo...bad idea. Even if the market looks stable for a few years, I don't feel comfortable with there not being immediate development plans.

I think mixed-use is absolutely the best idea for this site, hands down. First two levels of retail, maybe 100,000 sf of office, and maybe 20-25 floors of residential.

I bet Continental would start construction pretty soon. Devon announced their tower in 2008, and they are now moved in 4 years later. If they announced tomorrow morning that they bought the site and were going to start construction Tuesday (wouldn't happen but just for the sake of this conversation), it'd be 3 years before they moved in fully. By that time, if they do grow according to their growth plan, which they have been meeting, they would need more space in 3 years.

I doubt Continental would sit too long on the site, and I don't think they'd demo before they were ready to set the foundation so to speak, much like Devon.

Something is definitely going to happen, and I am anxious to see!

I also think that site needs to be active after 5

That's a good point. It is a very transitional point between MBG/CBD and Film Row.

Just had dinner with someone who normally doesn't just spread rumors, and he told me that he has heard from several people that he works with (all in the energy sector, and most from Tulsa) that Williams may be looking at OKC to reloate. That would be a huge loss for Tulsa if it were to happen.

We weren't even talking about companies moving or anything like that, he just brought it up and asked if I had heard anything about it

I also think that site needs to be active after 5

That is going to be a tricky area since the lot next door is an elementary school that will be vacant after 4PM and on weekends.

That is going to be a tricky area since the lot next door is an elementary school that will be vacant after 4PM and on weekends.

Maybe, maybe not. When my children were little, there was one event or another at their grade school almost every weeknight, and occasionally on weekends (though usually weekend matters were daytime events.) Not hordes of folks, but not just 1-3 families either.

Just had dinner with someone who normally doesn't just spread rumors, and he told me that he has heard from several people that he works with (all in the energy sector, and most from Tulsa) that Williams may be looking at OKC to reloate. That would be a huge loss for Tulsa if it were to happen.

We weren't even talking about companies moving or anything like that, he just brought it up and asked if I had heard anything about it

If they were to relocate, I would rather have them relocate to OKC than Houston though........

You can bet that if Continental develops the Stage Center site, they will go through a process and approach very close to Devon, in that they do their best to make the property at least somewhat multi-purpose and have it be open to the public.


Interesting about Williams... Perhaps they would just move part of their company? Very hard to believe they would pull up stakes on Tulsa, as they are such a big part of that community.

Williams is such a large company, at one time they bought the Transco Tower in Houston, which is at the Galleria and in excess of 900 feet tall. It wouldn't surprise me if they moved some division here.

That is going to be a tricky area since the lot next door is an elementary school that will be vacant after 4PM and on weekends.

But the pressure is on because it may be the only side of the MBG that we even get the opportunity to make vibrant

Devon built their massive complex next to several other structures, so the elementary school shouldn't be a big issue.

For the school, the dropoff/pickup point is in the back anyway, as is the playground. With modern building techniques, the classrooms shouldn't be too disturbed by construction noise.

I think it would have been really cool to be in elementary school and have such a huge potential operation going on right next door to watch every day. I'm sure if this all does pan out, the kids would enjoy watching the construction workers and it would be a cool learning experience for them. Whatever gets built there, they would just have to be involved together and make it happen and have it be a safe area for workers and students.

Devon built their massive complex next to several other structures, so the elementary school shouldn't be a big issue.

For the school, the dropoff/pickup point is in the back anyway, as is the playground. With modern building techniques, the classrooms shouldn't be too disturbed by construction noise.

I meant post-construction. It will be difficult to create a walkable environment with 400' feet of off-limit space. I'm thinking the school should have been built in the center of where future housing is planned (between Dewey and Lee and between 5th and 6th), not on the edge of it. That location would have put the school right in the middle of the very people who will use it in the future.

There is more and more news about Continental's rapid growth and a recent discovery could be huge.

I really think they are going to end up buying the Stage Center property and building a tower. And considering that the foundation is in the process of accepting proposals for that property, I would expect it to change hands soon.

The more financial blogs I read, the more I think this is correct. Domestic energy is poised to make a HUGE comeback, barring any unforeseen foreign policy or domestic regulation blunders. Most of the financial gurus have Continental at the top of the list.

I'm going to take Steve's recommendation of trusting Beffort's word. I bet we have an announcement by the end of the year (within 7 weeks).

I meant post-construction. It will be difficult to create a walkable environment with 400' feet of off-limit space. I'm thinking the school should have been built in the center of where future housing is planned (between Dewey and Lee and between 5th and 6th), not on the edge of it. That location would have put the school right in the middle of the very people who will use it in the future.

The school isn't just for C2S, and nobody lives down there right now (except for a few way-early things happening down in Hubcap Alley). Deep Deuce is the unequivocal epicenter of downtown housing and will be for a LONG time, as I would expect it to retain a lead of a few thousand residents for at least 15 years. And that's assuming C2S takes off as we hope.

Just a thought, but if Continental does build, They don't necessarily have to take up the whole block. Also, if they are going to build there and grow into a big company, I can think of no better place to build a residential high-rise than right between Devon and Continental. That place would lease out/sell in about 3 minutes with that many highly paid employees with in 400 yards of each other.

On that note, is there any precedent in other cities for companies building residential? I would think Devon/Continental could go in on that together, or even just one of them. It would almost surely be cake for them to make it a profitable endeavor for them. If not monetarily, economically. Imagine the incentives you could do with employees to live there and how that would help recruitment efforts.

Since Devon and Continental are so tight (Devon did a lot to lure them to OKC, after all) perhaps we'll see the two develop in concert with each other.

If and when Continental gets serious about developing the Stage Center site, that means those ratty properties on the Preftakes block (immediately west of Devon) are going to look even worse and be a barrier between Continental, the school, the new Bicentennial Park & Civic Center, and Film Row.

I could be that once Continental announces plans for SC, Devon will follow suit for the Preftakes block.

On that note, is there any precedent in other cities for companies building residential?

Kerr McGee, until they got bought out.

That's what I've been saying. A highrise residential would sell out in no time flat. Somebody with enough money to build one would be stupid not too.

That's what I've been saying. A highrise residential would sell out in no time flat. Somebody with enough money to build one would be stupid not too.

Be nice if we could have gotten such a development where the new convention center is slated to go. But then again, we had a development possibly for this site already and we decided the CC was more important. What a nightmare that has been and will continue to be.

Pondering ... if Chesapeake had taken some of the generous property payments made in the northern portion of the city, and applied the funds instead to land & new residential highrise construction near their campus and near DT, oh, how much more additional housing might exist today.

Since Devon and Continental are so tight (Devon did a lot to lure them to OKC, after all) perhaps we'll see the two develop in concert with each other.

If and when Continental gets serious about developing the Stage Center site, that means those ratty properties on the Preftakes block (immediately west of Devon) are going to look even worse and be a barrier between Continental, the school, the new Bicentennial Park & Civic Center, and Film Row.

I could be that once Continental announces plans for SC, Devon will follow suit for the Preftakes block.

So we're now calling our last remnants of our historic Main Street "those ratty properties" ??? Sheesh, Pete..

On that note, is there any precedent in other cities for companies building residential?

There used to be at least some companies that did, though I think it is much rarer now than it use to be.

So we're now calling our last remnants of our historic Main Street "those ratty properties" ??? Sheesh, Pete..

In their current state, 'ratty' is a compliment.

I hope nobody thinks a single preservationist wants those buildings to stay in their current state.

Preftakes has owned those Main Street properties for quite a while and hasn't even bothered to clean them up, repair broken windows, etc.

They are not going to renovate those buildings, otherwise they would have done *something* by now. I'm sure they are leaving them in their crappy state so when it comes time to tear them down, there will be less money invested and less objection.

Then we really are playing zero-sum infill...

The more financial blogs I read, the more I think this is correct. Domestic energy is poised to make a HUGE comeback, barring any unforeseen foreign policy or domestic regulation blunders. Most of the financial gurus have Continental at the top of the list.

yup, check this article out.Move Over Saudi Arabia, Uncle Sam is Moving Up! (http://www.righands.com/news/news-detail/move-over-saudi-arabia-uncle-sam-is-moving-up--217)

Then we really are playing zero-sum infill...

Only if what is built is just as crappy as what is there now and doesn't led to adjacent development. The naural progression is for property to ascend to higher and better use. That includes vacant lots AND lots with something already on them. What sucks is when we try lower and worse use.

Only if what is built is just as crappy as what is there now and doesn't led to adjacent development. The naural progression is for property to ascend to higher and better use. That includes vacant lots AND lots with something already on them. What sucks is when we try lower and worse use.

which brings up the four possibilities

Higher And Better use (which i think i can easily say that we are all in favor of)
Lower And Better use (which i personally am okay with, as long as the use is significantly better for the land than what was previously used for)
Higher and Worse use (some on here will be still infavor of this cause it means taller buildings. i would venture that the majority would not like this)
Lower and Worse use (what the City of Oklahoma City is a master of)

I really think we're looking at 2 separate structures that will be built on the Preftakes block. The corner of Main and Hudson, Carpenter's Square area, will be some kind of smaller medical center or something for Devon. You could squeeze in a skyscraper if you wanted, but it's not the ideal location. I'm thinking probably something on par height-wise with the city office building there, in the same style as the rest of the Devon complex.

The second structure on that block will be where Johnny's Lunch Box and the old Greyhound station are. There's a huge amount of parking behind those buildings in the center of that block, and you could put a truly ginormous skyscraper there without having to tear much down. Maybe whoever doesn't get Stage Center builds there. It would be kind of cool to get two skyscrapers being built at the same time, right across the street from one another.

It would be kind of cool to get two skyscrapers being built at the same time, right across the street from one another.You mean like we had at First and Robinson more than 80 years ago? Doug's blog has some photos that show just how cool that was!

A repeat of this...

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/First%20National/First-National-Construction-Photos-18-1931.jpg

That's exactly how I mean. That kind of competition really improves the spirit of the community, it gets everyone excited and involved.

Fortunately for all of us, Devon and now SandRidge (and really Chesapeake, for that matter) have set very high standards.

I doubt OG&E would build to that same level but it would be hard for any private entity or developer to set a lower bar.

Only if what is built is just as crappy as what is there now and doesn't led to adjacent development. The naural progression is for property to ascend to higher and better use. That includes vacant lots AND lots with something already on them. What sucks is when we try lower and worse use.

Can you think of ANY higher and better use than restoring those buildings as a natural mixed-use transition between CBD and Film Row, and filling in the two vacant lots with a condo tower and a Devon 2 tower..something with smaller floor plates

Can you think of ANY higher and better use than restoring those buildings as a natural mixed-use transition between CBD and Film Row, and filling in the two vacant lots with a condo tower and a Devon 2 tower..something with smaller floor plates

tearing the buildings down to build a modern corp headquarters .. that is 35+ stories .. is a better use

Anything that produced more than $0 per sq foot in economic activity would be a higher and better use assuming it was still built to urban development design standards. If towers can be wedged into the existing space as you described then that is great also.

tearing the buildings down to build a modern corp headquarters .. that is 35+ stories .. is a better use

Is there anything that a modern corporate headquarters is not a better use than, including anything site-specific?

I think we really, really, really have to start getting more nuanced about corporate headquarters placement. There should be a voice of reason saying to spread these out a little more, DO have mixed-use in between, and also it's easier on the parking demands because you can do garages that also have business after 5 from mixed-use around the corporations.

I drove around this area today and I agree wholeheartedly with Spartan about this. To lose the Preftakes block and those last remnants of our Main St. is not a higher use. It's a different use. We all gripe all the time about all the empty lots and all the space and how we need infill and then we suddenly support an idea to wipe out what could be a perfectly good block if Preftakes opened it up for use and made some renovations. WTF? Why can't Devon and Continental and whoever else looks at some of the empty lots and build on those? My god, we have plenty! Why can't the Preftakes block be saved or added onto with something innovative as opposed to clearing it? I really think they should try and look at some empty lots and start there.

Is there anything that a modern corporate headquarters is not a better use than, including anything site-specific?

I think we really, really, really have to start getting more nuanced about corporate headquarters placement. There should be a voice of reason saying to spread these out a little more, DO have mixed-use in between, and also it's easier on the parking demands because you can do garages that also have business after 5 from mixed-use around the corporations.

sure lots of things are better than corporate headquarters .... just not many that i can think of that are 1 story

sure lots of things are better than corporate headquarters .... just not many that i can think of that are 1 story

Then take out the 1-story building. That will rip my heart out because I love that terra cotta and black/white checkerboard tile facade, but if we can get a compromise that restores most of the historic buildings on the Preftakes block and enables new construction as well, then everyone wins - OKC wins. Modern towers can also be built ON TOP of historic 1-story structures.

I drove around this area today and I agree wholeheartedly with Spartan about this. To lose the Preftakes block and those last remnants of our Main St. is not a higher use. It's a different use. We all gripe all the time about all the empty lots and all the space and how we need infill and then we suddenly support an idea to wipe out what could be a perfectly good block if Preftakes opened it up for use and made some renovations. WTF? Why can't Devon and Continental and whoever else looks at some of the empty lots and build on those? My god, we have plenty! Why can't the Preftakes block be saved or added onto with something innovative as opposed to clearing it? I really think they should try and look at some empty lots and start there.

We need to start looking at moving downtown forward in ways that don't involve clear-cutting downtown first. It is shocking how we have learned absolutely nothing from our city's storied and tragic past.

The Coney Island building is one of the only ones left from the original Main St. In the style of these buildings from the first decade since the city was founded. Similar to Guthrie. It's probably around a 1904 building. It still stands because it's further away from downtown.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/W%20Main%20St/18731OklahomaHistoricalSocietyPhotographCollection-Photographs-TownsBox6OKLAHOMACITY-FAIRS-LOOKINGWESTPASTTHEWESTONNATIONALBANKBUILDINGONWES. jpg

As I understand it, the Coney Island building is privately owned by the old guy who runs Coney Island. He ain't selling. The building beside it is owned by the city and they aren't selling either. There's the old auto hotel on that block, as well as the large building beside it whose name I can't think of right now. Both are in use and neither will be torn down. So what we're talking about as far as clear cutting the Preftakes block are the 3 or 4 one and two story buildings that are on the corner of Hudson and Main. All look pretty bad and haven't had any money put into them in a decade or more. All could probably be cleaned up and turned into a small law firm office or something like that.

If I were in charge of building a new corporate headquarters and had selected that site, I'd level those old buildings, then build the first 8-10 floors of my skyscraper out of brick and limestone to evoke the same turn-of-the-century feeling of those old buildings, and then have my glass and steel tower rise out of that base. You still get the appearance of preserving old Main Street. Personally those particular buildings look awful to me, in part due to their dilapidation. But even if you spent the money to make them look new, at most you're getting a Grace Cleaners style series of buildings that are kinda nice and add a bit of character. Call me an enemy of preservation, but I'd take a 35 story tower over that. I think we're actually looking at some sort of 10 story glass building for Devon in that spot, but I've got no real info on that.

I would agree, if you were talking about leveling the entire block, a corporate HQ isn't worth it. Too many good old buildings on that block to lose.

Why doesn't anyone propose tearing down 100 N Walker? I don't think anyone would shed a tear if we lost that building.

Maybe this will end up like Batteries Not Included and the Coney Island building will be surrounded by much taller skyscrapers on each side of it! That would be awesome.

Maybe this will end up like Batteries Not Included and the Coney Island building will be surrounded by much taller skyscrapers on each side of it! That would be awesome.

wow... now that is a movie you don't se referenced very often

Stage Center site is ripe for tower development

Steve Lackmeyer: Stage Center site is ripe for tower development | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/steve-lackmeyer-stage-center-site-is-ripe-for-tower-development/article/3729147#axzz2CREj5olK)

As always, thanks for the update Steve!

Building momentum: Brokers say Hobby Lobby, energy industry driving OKC industrial market | The Journal Record (http://journalrecord.com/2012/11/15/building-momentum-brokers-say-hobby-lobby-energy-industry-driving-okc-industrial-market-real-estate/)

Hobby Lobby??

Edit: oh, industrial...yeah when you take an entire square mile it tends to have an impact :/

Please post the full text of the article for those without a subscription.

Yeah that's always a must with the JR