Using your logic no one would be downtown.

And every building would be exactly the same.

We can speculate and say how cool it would be to have them move and all, but at the end of the day, i don't buy it. And what's worse in the whole thing is if they do move, you won't be able to fill their old buildings up. So yeah you've moved WITHIN the city to downtown and simply left a big block of office space on classesn to sit abandoned. It's sort of like Wal-Mart. YAY, you got your Super Center, but what the crap are you going to do with the old building now. Simply shuffling within the city doesn't get you jack. What you want, it someone moving in from outside the city....like CR taking over Devon space. That's where you do the happy dance.

If I remember correctly, you were the one dogging CR for moving to OKC..........because it was going to crush Enid. At least they didn't move to Houston.

As far as AF is concerned, they don't own those 3 buildings on the East side of Classen, therefore they could care less if they set empty, they wouldn't care if they were dozed down.

Obviously, AF wants to move out of one century and into the next, for whatever reasons - it's their choice.

We just heard from a source here in the downtown real estate market that it is American Fidelity and that they are planning a 40 story tower in the 4th and Broadway triangle. Might be accurate, might not, but that's what we were told.

not a fan of that location for a tower that tall

not a fan of that location for a tower that tall

I think this will be a great location, as it will expand skyline to the east, and it will compliment the new Sandridge Tower, and add synergy to Deep Deuce/AA developments...

Are we talking about the SE corner of 4th and Broadway or the NW corner? Or are we talking about 4th and broadway in general?

I think this will be a great location, as it will expand skyline to the east, and it will compliment the new Sandridge Tower, and add synergy to Deep Deuce/AA developments... Agree. The Skyline needs to grow East to balance it out.

I heard from two key players last week that no new highrise was being planned for downtown. They would know, they're aware of the rumors and discussion, and they were both having a good laugh about it.

Because I can't tell you who they were - I'm just adding grist to the mill. But with that said...

... Pete - I won't give you through 2013 for an AF announcement, but I'll double down on my bet of a round of drinks if another company - ANY company - announces a highrise (10+ stories) in the CBD in 2012. You can buy me drinks at the restaurant atop the Devon tower.

thats funny, because I am 100% sure Sandridge is building a new tower 20+, if nothing else...

read posts 995 and 996 slowly, until you get it, and see if that makes any sense at all...lol...funny stuff...

pardon me, i thought it was SW4th street

I heard from two key players last week that no new highrise was being planned for downtown. They would know, they're aware of the rumors and discussion, and they were both having a good laugh about it.

Because I can't tell you who they were - I'm just adding grist to the mill. But with that said...

How could anybody know this conclusively?

You can't prove a negative... There is no one person or two people in Oklahoma City that could possibly know with absolute certainty that no new high rise was being planned.

Unless your source is Kreskin or someone with a crystal ball.

How could anybody know this conclusively?

You can't prove a negative... There is no one person or two people in Oklahoma City that could possibly know with absolute certainty that no new high rise was being planned.

Unless your source is Kreskin or someone with a crystal ball.

great we can get these questions and speculations answered finally... Does anyone have a crystal ball!!!

My point wasn't the grammar, but that we ARE getting a DT grocer!

I know what your point was and my statement still applies.

great we can get these questions and speculations answered finally... Does anyone have a crystal ball!!!

I do. It just says "concentrate and ask again." Darn.

How about something like what First National was originally supposed to look like? Or just keep it in the 1930's?

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/1stnational/1stnational01.jpg

I would love it if First National looked like that today but I say keep it in the 30's.

Is the first national center almost completely vacant right now?

I really wish someone would build a new Art Deco skyscraper here. That would be awesome.

I would really like someone to build a skyscraper with the same materials as Valliance. I love that building, and I think that color would add a lot to the skyline.

But they've already made it known they would like to move downtown; we could speculate why all day long but they made that leap years ago so the reasons don't really matter.

Using your logic no one would be downtown.

If I was a CEO of a large enterprise in OKC I guarantee you I'd move downtown and I know lots of others feel that way. For a project that is going to cost hundreds of millions, a few million extra for land is not going to make a big difference.

You missed the point i made. For several companies, it is adventageous. B2B relationships spell a need for that. However, there's also a reason why so many business AREN'T downtown. So by reversal, your logic would say that everyone should only be downtown. That's obviously not the case either. The point here is, it doesn't make sense for everyone. But for some folks it does.

Pete - the reasons you give don't add up for me. It's all speculative and it doesn't make business sense. People don't move downtown unless it makes some overwhelming dollar sense to them because it costs so much more to BE downtown. Why do you think so many places build on memorial? Simply being under one roof doesn't do it. And especially if you build your own building. It's far more economical to lease space than own in the office world. Mostly because you are then mobile and not tied to something later. It's not like manufacturing. There are ups and downs both ways, but generally speaking, if you are going to build a tower, you better have a damned good reason for doing it (like being spread out in 6 different buildings and requiring 50 floors to even consolidate)....cough cough.

But for AF, there's no reason. It's not like OG&E and their pipeline company where it moves the B2B closer together so you can walk over (which i would still argue is a poor decision...ever heard of the phone or video conferencing). Rent is higher, your commute for sure increases no matter what because of downtown traffic in/out. Telecom downtown SUCKS! All that copper down there rather than fiber is worthless and power is flakey.

Where AF is, they aren't out of growth room either. They don't need to work closely with anyone downtown. And as I've said before, they don't get anything out of consolidating under one roof for two divisions....remember there are several other divisions of the family's company that wouldn't be included.

We can speculate and say how cool it would be to have them move and all, but at the end of the day, i don't buy it. And what's worse in the whole thing is if they do move, you won't be able to fill their old buildings up. So yeah you've moved WITHIN the city to downtown and simply left a big block of office space on classesn to sit abandoned. It's sort of like Wal-Mart. YAY, you got your Super Center, but what the crap are you going to do with the old building now. Simply shuffling within the city doesn't get you jack. What you want, it someone moving in from outside the city....like CR taking over Devon space. That's where you do the happy dance.

Actually, you stated that there MUST be a business reason for someone to pay more to be downtown and I was pointing out there are lots of reasons rather than purely economical ones, otherwise almost no one would be there.

Every decision a business makes should make economic sense. You don't move a successful business from the suburbs to downtown if you expect it to become unsuccessful as a result. I don't think any of the companies we are talking about are in that position, where the extra cost associated with moving downtown would be the difference between sleeping on piles of cash and begging for change.

Officing in a thriving downtown brings with it a certain amount of prestige. It positions the company to be a more prominent presence in the city. Remember that "economic sense" does not always equal "cheapest thing we can find". While a penny saved may equal a penny earned, you also have to spend money to make money. If a large company really wanted to go cheap, they could always get space in a strip mall. There are lots of old Wal-Marts around the city. I bet you could get Crossroads Mall for next to nothing. Lots of available square footage there. Where would you rather work? Will Devon have an easier time getting in-demand employees at their new gorgeous skyscraper than they would if they were at Crossroads Mall? If you were an executive, would you prefer to look out over the city from 50 stories up, or have easy parking?

It doesn't make sense for every business to move downtown. Some have spent a lot of money establishing themselves in their current locations. Chesapeake isn't going to move downtown after spending all that money building their campus. Bob the dentist would probably lose most of his business if he moved from Moore to downtown. But for a company that was looking to move from their current location anyway, who could afford higher rents and were looking to take a higher-profile position in the city, moving downtown could make a lot of business sense.

It's also advantageous for attracting employees from all parts of the metro. No one wants to commute to Memorial and May from Norman if their commute could be half of that to downtown.

Every decision a business makes should make economic sense. You don't move a successful business from the suburbs to downtown if you expect it to become unsuccessful as a result. I don't think any of the companies we are talking about are in that position, where the extra cost associated with moving downtown would be the difference between sleeping on piles of cash and begging for change.

Officing in a thriving downtown brings with it a certain amount of prestige. It positions the company to be a more prominent presence in the city. Remember that "economic sense" does not always equal "cheapest thing we can find". While a penny saved may equal a penny earned, you also have to spend money to make money. If a large company really wanted to go cheap, they could always get space in a strip mall. There are lots of old Wal-Marts around the city. I bet you could get Crossroads Mall for next to nothing. Lots of available square footage there. Where would you rather work? Will Devon have an easier time getting in-demand employees at their new gorgeous skyscraper than they would if they were at Crossroads Mall? If you were an executive, would you prefer to look out over the city from 50 stories up, or have easy parking?

It doesn't make sense for every business to move downtown. Some have spent a lot of money establishing themselves in their current locations. Chesapeake isn't going to move downtown after spending all that money building their campus. Bob the dentist would probably lose most of his business if he moved from Moore to downtown. But for a company that was looking to move from their current location anyway, who could afford higher rents and were looking to take a higher-profile position in the city, moving downtown could make a lot of business sense.

This is one of the best posts I have heard in a while, a post that actually makes sense. :yourock:

This is one of the best posts I have heard in a while, a post that actually makes sense. :yourock:

I think that means that we should ban Hoyasooner from these forums... how dare people get on here and post things that make sense!!!

It's also advantageous for attracting employees from all parts of the metro. No one wants to commute to Memorial and May from Norman if their commute could be half of that to downtown.

This.

It's called the CENTRAL business district for a reason.

Im going to LOL next year when there's no building announcement and this thread is 150 pages deep...

Next year it will be a bigger thread than the Devon thread.

Edit: And by then we'll have about 25 towers rumored (CONFIRMED BY THE INTERWEBS) to be going in.

There was a huge thread about Devon Tower long before it was announced.

There almost certainly will be some sort of announcement(s) in the next year.

Every decision a business makes should make economic sense. You don't move a successful business from the suburbs to downtown if you expect it to become unsuccessful as a result. I don't think any of the companies we are talking about are in that position, where the extra cost associated with moving downtown would be the difference between sleeping on piles of cash and begging for change.

Officing in a thriving downtown brings with it a certain amount of prestige. It positions the company to be a more prominent presence in the city. Remember that "economic sense" does not always equal "cheapest thing we can find". While a penny saved may equal a penny earned, you also have to spend money to make money. If a large company really wanted to go cheap, they could always get space in a strip mall. There are lots of old Wal-Marts around the city. I bet you could get Crossroads Mall for next to nothing. Lots of available square footage there. Where would you rather work? Will Devon have an easier time getting in-demand employees at their new gorgeous skyscraper than they would if they were at Crossroads Mall? If you were an executive, would you prefer to look out over the city from 50 stories up, or have easy parking?


This probably sounds silly, but I actually ended up passing on a job opportunity with an energy company because, among other reasons, it was way out on Northwest Expressway past Rockwell. As far as the energy sector is concerned, it has more or less coalesced around downtown (and to a lesser extent, 63rd and Western for obvious reasons). These two areas have a synergy to them that facilitates networking and business relationships, much in the same sense you see in Silicon Valley with tech companies or Wall Street in NYC with banks. It would very very difficult to do the same thing being halfway to Piedmont.

Every decision a business makes should make economic sense.

You would like to think that, but that is only true about half the time. Don't give corporate America too much credit, they are still run by Humans (not Vulcans).

Im going to LOL next year when there's no building announcement and this thread is 150 pages deep...

You're going to laugh if downtown doesn't get another high rise? Maybe OKC isn't that OK for you...

You're going to laugh if downtown doesn't get another high rise? Maybe OKC isn't that OK for you...

Maybe you don't know that I'm generally 125% sarcastic when I say things like that...SMH

I heard from two key players last week that no new highrise was being planned for downtown. They would know, they're aware of the rumors and discussion, and they were both having a good laugh about it.

Because I can't tell you who they were - I'm just adding grist to the mill. But with that said...


... Pete - I won't give you through 2013 for an AF announcement, but I'll double down on my bet of a round of drinks if another company - ANY company - announces a highrise (10+ stories) in the CBD in 2012. You can buy me drinks at the restaurant atop the Devon tower.

You are saying that two key Okc individuals were laughing at the rumor of the mystery tower and yet you won't extend the bet for 2013?

How hard were they laughing, was it LOL, LMAO, or ROFLMAO?

How hard were they laughing, was it LOL, LMAO, or ROFLMAO?

"like"

What is today's Mystery Tower word on the street?

What is today's Mystery Tower word on the street?

It's still a mystery.

You are saying that two key Okc individuals were laughing at the rumor of the mystery tower and yet you won't extend the bet for 2013?

How hard were they laughing, was it LOL, LMAO, or ROFLMAO?

Confident smirks.

You want me to risk a round of drinks on Pete on a timeline that extends 21 months? He'd order a round of Pousse Cafes or a bottle of Cristal.

I really like this one in Detroit.

One Detroit Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Detroit_Center)

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQI7E35jqfBhQuTe6a2Br6tvDpDvo5N9 dzSSOLRmcQtHO7aROkRlg

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSBEB5InIgIcrBHHKoI_0hO44MR0KuLq D1k-Sui92ZZDxlY-kiS

Mixture of old and new. I wish we could get an original idea like this that is ultra modern but has a classical style.

Confident smirks.

You want me to risk a round of drinks on Pete on a timeline that extends 21 months? He'd order a round of Pousse Cafes or a bottle of Cristal.

OKCTalker, the only issue I have with your claim is that we have had Mark Beffort, a major player in the Oklahoma City real estate industry publicly confirm a new tower, but did not reveal the identity. Do we quickly forget these things? Or is there confusion as to what do we speculate?

If there was absolutely zip in the press about this, I'd have more confidence in what you have said. Because this has been discussed in the paper, I do not.

Off topic but I wish every new building constructed downtown had this level of creative detail and imaginitivity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Washington_Library

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Chicago_Library_Downtown.png

Is it just the sheer cost or what?

Yes, cost and maintenance. Back when all these ornate buildings were constructed, they were basically employing slave labor.


Plus, that building scares me!

Buildings are still made like that today, but mostly it is limited to homes. Corporate America only cares about cost per sq foot which is why most skyscrapers today use glass walls on the exterior. Individual people still like living in something more substantial than glass.

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumblarge_578/1296440319qKY1aR.jpg

I can't believe corporations care about things like cost and functionality. How dare they...those evil corporate America execs. ;-)

Actually, the use of lots of glass started in the mid 1800s in England and the first glass clad high-rise was in Chicago shortly thereafter. Technology advances in steel fabrication and pane glass production was the underlying catalyst. The desire for simple and functional buildings drove things to steel and concrete core and glass cladding. Thankfully, architects are more inclined to do things like the Devon Center now...really functional buildings using current technology to create glass buildings with elegant design form. I hope we are so lucky to have the new tower(s) be as attractive.

To me, this will always be more impressive then sheer size and glass. Structures like this will probably always be one of a kind and never repeated.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/Chicago_29_Oct116.jpg
Tribune Tower

Maybe you don't know that I'm generally 125% sarcastic when I say things like that...SMH

Me too.

Don't worry, I didn't really mean that OKC was not OK 4 U anymore... PoTB.

Confident smirks.

You want me to risk a round of drinks on Pete on a timeline that extends 21 months? He'd order a round of Pousse Cafes or a bottle of Cristal.

Leverage the bet with the smug bastards and you can't lose. Either way, Cristal with Pete!

To me, this will always be more impressive then sheer size and glass. Structures like this will probably always be one of a kind and never repeated.

One Atlantic Center in Atlanta was built in 1987. However, like many other buildings constructed in the time period - they screwed up the street level aspect. They spent so much time making sure the crown looked good from 10 miles away they forgot to make sure the first floor looked good from 10 feet away.

http://www.atlantaarchitecture.info/LegacyImages/O/OneAtlanticCenter-006.jpg

Generally never repeated.

I would like to see a building with gargoyles on it at the top.

Whatever we get, I hope it looks nothing like Devon Tower in any way and is completely unique.

Neither Oklahoma City or Tulsa architecture is featured on GlassSteelAndStone.com.

I love how the Devon Tower interacts with the horizon. There will always be a handful of architectural critiques of any building, but I'd like to see at least one more shimmering structure on the skyline...particularly in contrast to the other relatively drab buildings. After that, then go for an ornate, eclectic, mixed exterior finish.

Some TransCanada news... sort of...

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0312/73686.html

Yes, cost and maintenance. Back when all these ornate buildings were constructed, they were basically employing slave labor.


Plus, that building scares me!


FYI, This is the Harold Washington Library in Chicago, completed in 1991...not too old

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk92/gandjdunlap/128.jpg

That's what I'm getting at.

There have been SOME ornate buildings over the last few decades, just an incredibly low percentage as compared to the first half of the 20th century, which is what I was addressing.

I don't know why I didn't think of this before but does anyone think the Chamber could have been refering to Frac Tech International? Chesapeake owns a 30% interest (though likely trying to sell it off to Sinopec/CNOOC), Aubrey and Chesapeake's current CFO sit on the board. Sinopec is currently in talks to acquire a 30% interest for 2.2 billion putting this companies market cap value near $7.3 billion. This seems kind of small, however the 2.2 billion in cash could help build a nice new tower in downton OKC. Not a likely contender but an interesting one.

Chiming in late here, but I did want to say that this is probably completely unlikely. I have a friend that works for them in Ft. Worth. I doubt they would need a tower, they just have three or four floors of a building in down town Ft. Worth.

He would also be incredibly bummed, he just moved down there to work for them and is loving being in a major city after living in OKC for years.