putting a new sky scraper at 5th and broadway would be very very hard to get passed

Why ?

putting a new sky scraper at 5th and broadway would be very very hard to get passed

I highly doubt its going to be @ 5th/Broadway, more then likely they meant 4th/Gaylord Blvd, a block south.

4th/Gaylord would be great location, and could start very quickly as there are no demolition permits to be obtained, there is nothing but a small parking lot at that site.

The Oklahoman and Pioneer Buildings could use some company...

Anyone developing that 4th & Broadway/EKG site should have enough room to build their own parking garage as well.

Also, if this proves to be true, I still think the Main & Hudson tower is happening as well.

Anyone developing that 4th & Broadway/EKG site should have enough room to build their own parking garage as well.

There is enough land at 4th and Broadway for two towers.

Anyone developing that 4th & Broadway/EKG site should have enough room to build their own parking garage as well.

Also, if this proves to be true, I still think the Main & Hudson tower is happening as well.

I believe there are two skyscrapers going up. The first being a new headquarters on Preftakes block for new company moving to Oklahoma City. And the other being American Fidelity @ 4th/Gaylord, which is probably in early planning stages. I suspect that the skyscraper on Preftakes block is probably further along in fruition and we will probably here an official announcement from them first. Moreover, an announcement from AF probably won't come until this Fall, and construction starting in 2013.

Why do we think AF is doing anything though? They have a campus on cheaper land near downtown already. They have plenty room where they are and their bank business is just up the road. Sure they would be able to consolidate into one building, but since they are different divisions (and there are more than 2), it doesn't really mean that much for workflow.

And as much as we all would like to know what is up Preftakes sleeves, we still don't have any reason to believe he bought it all to tear it down. There is too much land availble downtown for cheaper for that to make sense.

AF has talked openly about it's desire to move downtown for years. Like Devon and Chesapeake, they frequently land on the best-places-to-work lists which demonstrates how much they value their employees, and a beautiful place to work is a big part of treating people right. I'm sure there are synergies in having all the businesses under one roof... And CEO Bill Cameron is a part owner of the Thunder and probably just wants to be part of an emerging downtown. I'm sure it would be easier to recruit top talent in a new downtown skyscraper as opposed to a bunch of unremarkable buildings in random parts of town.

As far as Preftakes, I've documented that he's spent a ton of money on all those adjoining sites. No way that investment an be justified unless something large is built there.

AF has talked openly about it's desire to move downtown for years. Like Devon and Chesapeake, they frequently land on the best-places-to-work lists which demonstrates how much they value their employees, and a beautiful place to work is a big part of treating people right. I'm sure there are synergies in having all the businesses under one roof... And CEO Bill Cameron is a part owner of the Thunder and probably just wants to be part of an emerging downtown. I'm sure it would be easier to recruit top talent in a new downtown skyscraper as opposed to a bunch of unremarkable buildings in random parts of town.

Pete - I'm calling "Booooooo" on your theory, and I'll bet you a round of drinks that they don't move. Specific wager: No announcement by AF in 2012 that they'll be moving to the CBD. 1) They're a great employer, meaning that they're also a "destination employer" - people won't consider them geographically undesireable unless they're in a horrible part of town, which they aren't; 2) Bill honors his father's and grandfather's legacies by staying where they built and grew the company on Classen; 3) The Thunder is but one of Bill's interest, but not enough for him to join Clay & Aubrey on the baseline at home games - I don't see him relocating his company closer to the arena until/unless he moves his rear end closer to courtside.

BTW, winner picks the bar. OKC or Cali, I'll go to either!

AF has talked openly about it's desire to move downtown for years. Like Devon and Chesapeake, they frequently land on the best-places-to-work lists which demonstrates how much they value their employees, and a beautiful place to work is a big part of treating people right. I'm sure there are synergies in having all the businesses under one roof... And CEO Bill Cameron is a part owner of the Thunder and probably just wants to be part of an emerging downtown. I'm sure it would be easier to recruit top talent in a new downtown skyscraper as opposed to a bunch of unremarkable buildings in random parts of town.

As far as Preftakes, I've documented that he's spent a ton of money on all those adjoining sites. No way that investment an be justified unless something large is built there.

In support of Pete's theory, AF was trying to move downtown way back in 2006, until they slept on and lost out on Sandridge Tower. This AF move should not be a surprise to anyone. What would be better stamp on the Cameron Family legacy, than building a iconic skyscraper that will forever grace the skyline?

When a company wants to build a skyscraper, they will, regardless of what people say, or because they have history on Classen, companies change, move, and grow all of the time.

Why ?

for 1 it is outside of the CBD (central business district) and in Auto ally ...

if the 4th/EKG is the site for new AF skyscraper, it would be great, as it will compliment new Sandridge Tower, it will be close to Deep Deuce, and street car access, nice....

Nm.

Pete - I'm calling "Booooooo" on your theory, and I'll bet you a round of drinks that they don't move. Specific wager: No announcement by AF in 2012 that they'll be moving to the CBD. 1) They're a great employer, meaning that they're also a "destination employer" - people won't consider them geographically undesireable unless they're in a horrible part of town, which they aren't; 2) Bill honors his father's and grandfather's legacies by staying where they built and grew the company on Classen; 3) The Thunder is but one of Bill's interest, but not enough for him to join Clay & Aubrey on the baseline at home games - I don't see him relocating his company closer to the arena until/unless he moves his rear end closer to courtside.

BTW, winner picks the bar. OKC or Cali, I'll go to either!

You're on!

Except I want to extend the announcement deadline through 2013.

for 1 it is outside of the CBD (central business district) and in Auto ally ...

I'm surprised the city would stop a project this massive due to these reasons...? There are large buildings on NW Expwy too. Just wondering.

4th/EKG would be a fantastic site for a new tower: easy ingress/egress through EKG to I-40 and 5th takes you right to I-235. Plus, employees could easily walk from lots of rent/buy housing options in Deep Deuce and you have a built-in health club right across the street at the new Y. And it's a nice little stroll up Broadway to all the places on Auto Alley. It would also really help bring along the south section of AA as well.

Pete - I'm calling "Booooooo" on your theory, and I'll bet you a round of drinks that they don't move. Specific wager: No announcement by AF in 2012 that they'll be moving to the CBD. 1) They're a great employer, meaning that they're also a "destination employer" - people won't consider them geographically undesireable unless they're in a horrible part of town, which they aren't; 2) Bill honors his father's and grandfather's legacies by staying where they built and grew the company on Classen; 3) The Thunder is but one of Bill's interest, but not enough for him to join Clay & Aubrey on the baseline at home games - I don't see him relocating his company closer to the arena until/unless he moves his rear end closer to courtside.


BTW, winner picks the bar. OKC or Cali, I'll go to either!

NO. 2 is completely off base. It's in the official record that AF tried unsuccessfully to buy the Kerr McGee tower and make it their headquarters. They previously bought land at Britton Road and Broadway for an hq before they were convinced by downtown leadership to drop that plan, reconsider the urban core.
As for NO. 3... not sure that really has any baring on this at all either way. As for NO. 1, I'll leave it up to others to decide whether their current location is all that hot or not....

It has been mentioned that in 1997 American Fidelity transferred ownership rights in it's headquarters properties to a partnership in New Jersey called Eaton Enterprises. On the county assessor site it's shown as a "non-sale" event, which usually means the transfer of assets to another entity under the same ownership umbrella. It's done frequently for tax purposes.

But in doing further research it appears they did actually sell those properties for $9.5 million. I'm sure a part of this agreement was a lease-back of the space, as they've been there ever since.

But that was 15 years ago and I'm sure they are well into an option period where it's the tenant's option to renew or not.

As Steve mentioned, several times in the recent past they have explored buying elsewhere and moving.

What better time would there be for them than now?

According to the Oklahoma County Assessor website, the 4th/EKG site is broken up into 3 parcels, 1 which is owned by the City, and 2 which are owned by OPUBCO.

NO. 1, I'll leave it up to others to decide whether their current location is all that hot or not....

Uptown, asian district, historic neighborhoods, easy access to midtown and downtown. It's not a bad spot at all. If I worked there, I wouldn't complain at all and would certainly prefer it to expressway, memorial or 235, but downtown would probably be even more appealing.

Whether 5th & Broadway or 4th and EKG, the skyline, approaching the core from I-40 E or W, will put a nice exclamation point at the end of the taper from south to north.

It's not a bad spot but essentially functions like a suburban one in that it's a cluster of mid-rise buildings with big surface parking lots.

I doubt employees walk to any place on 23rd or Classen, either.


Unless you are a hipster (and I doubt AF employs many of those) this is a less desirable spot than most those further out, which is probably why they were considering Britton & Broadway. I bet most their employees live in north OKC and Edmond.

At least downtown is more accessible from all over the metro, has come cache and also lots of amenities.

Frankly, I think for most workers the 20th & Classen location combines the worst aspects of downtown and suburbia without offering many of the benefits of either.

....3) The Thunder is but one of Bill's interest, but not enough for him to join Clay & Aubrey on the baseline at home games - I don't see him relocating his company closer to the arena until/unless he moves his rear end closer to courtside...

Not that this has real bearing on anything, but Cameron already has seats courtside - opposite the opposing team's bench.

With Mark Beffort coming out publicly, I am sure there is a company that will build a headquarters here. However, the term "international company" can put it in a broad scope. A company can be headquartered in U.S. and still can be considered "international". So we don't know if its a U.S., Chinese, or Canadian company.


But I believe he also said it was to be the "North American headquarters" of an "international company". If it was a U.S. company, it would logically be the world headquarters, not a North American HQ. That suggests that it is indeed a company based outside the United States, that will put its "North American" (but not world) Headquarters in Oklahoma City.

The statements from Beffort and the Chamber are getting confused. Here is what Richard Mize reported about the Beffort hint:


Mark Beffort said another new corporate headquarters will be built downtown starting this year, but he didn’t say what company. He also said would-be tenants are vying for Devon Energy’s current space, but he didn’t say who.

Who was it that said it would be an international company moving its North American HQ here? Was it the OKC Chamber that said they were actively recruiting and international company to place its North American HQ in OKC? Is there a press release or something that shows this statement?

Who was it that said it would be an international company moving its North American HQ here? Was it the OKC Chamber that said they were actively recruiting and international company to place its North American HQ in OKC? Is there a press release or something that shows this statement?

Economic development officials try to lure next big catch to Oklahoma City
BY STEVE LACKMEYER Oklahoman
January 27, 2011

Following the successful recruitment of Whole Foods and 550 Boeing jobs, executives with the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber say they’re in the hunt for a North American headquarters for a “large international company” and also are in talks with two grocery stores looking to open locations downtown.

The development prospects were revealed this week as part of a quarterly report delivered to the Oklahoma City Economic Development Trust, which reviews potential retail and jobs incentives issued by the city.

Robin Roberts-Kreiger, executive vice president of Economic Development, said the chamber has visited with some of the companies over the past couple of weeks.

“We showed Oklahoma City to a large company last week,” said Roberts-Kreiger, who is not permitted to discuss names of prospects. “It’s a very large project, and we’re on their short list. This week we have a large international company in town looking at North American headquarters.”

Alison Oshel, who oversees retail recruitment for the chamber, reported prospects are up as well in the effort to lure shops, stores and restaurants not currently found in Oklahoma City.

“We have 30 really solid leads to locate retailers in Oklahoma City,” Oshel said. “Two are downtown grocery stores, which we feel as optimistic as we’ve felt yet and we think we may see a downtown grocery store in the next few years.”

The activity, Oshel said, isn’t just a “blip on the radar screen.”

“We feel as if the worst of the recession may be over,” Oshel said.

Roberts-Kreiger echoed Oshel’s sentiments.

“We’re seeing increased activity,” Roberts-Kreiger said. “Based on trends, we believe it’s based on the economy and some companies that were sitting on cash are starting to move because of that.”

Read more: http://newsok.com/economic-development-officials-try-to-lure-next-big-catch-to-oklahoma-city/article/3535790#ixzz1CridGIJz

Not that this has real bearing on anything, but Cameron already has seats courtside - opposite the opposing team's bench.

He likes his basketball, I think he is the majority owner of the Tulsa Shock of the WPNBA.

The site at NW 4th and Broadway is in the CBD. The Automobile Alley district does not officially begin until the north side of Broadway, though we always unofficially included the building that now houses TAP because, well, it fit.

What is there to prohibit high rises in the midtown area anyway? There are lots of vacant lots crying for development.

What is there to prohibit high rises in the midtown area anyway? There are lots of vacant lots crying for development.

I could see not putting one within a block of the memorial, but isn't Regency Tower 25 or 26 stories anyway...?

I could see not putting one within a block of the memorial, but isn't Regency Tower 25 or 26 stories anyway...?

I agree about restrictions around the memorial. The existing Regency Tower was 'part of the story' as it were.

What is there to prohibit high rises in the midtown area anyway? There are lots of vacant lots crying for development.
Design guidelines. They are written in such a way so as to encourage similar building types stay grouped together.

The statements from Beffort and the Chamber are getting confused. Here is what Richard Mize reported about the Beffort hint:

so is it a company that is already in downtown? wonder if the the hype is just the new sandridge tower?

I doubt employees walk to any place on 23rd or Classen, either.I suspect that a fair number of them walk up Western a few blocks to Someplace Else, though. Every time I drop in there around lunch time, the place is packed.

Design guidelines. They are written in such a way so as to encourage similar building types stay grouped together.

Not necessarily. The downtown zoning districts (DBD, DTD-1 and DTD-2) have no height restrictions, although there are areas on the outskirts of the zoning districts, such as N. 13th Street that require a building height plane. The ordinance does not limit the height of buildings in most of the downtown area (defined as N. 13th Street, I-235, Classen/Shartel and south to the river).

The Downtown Design Reivew may have "guidelines" but those are not ordinances and are not codified. They may raise questions about compatibility and impact of a building's height, and could deny a request, but that could easily be appealed, and imo, unless there was something drastically negative about the proposal, it would get approved. After all, it is downtown and large, tall developments are specifically allowed there.

I suspect that a fair number of them walk up Western a few blocks to Someplace Else, though. Every time I drop in there around lunch time, the place is packed.

no, its already been confirmed that the mystery tower(s) would be in addition to Sandridge Tower and CC Hotel...

Not necessarily. The downtown zoning districts (DBD, DTD-1 and DTD-2) have no height restrictions, although there are areas on the outskirts of the zoning districts, such as N. 13th Street that require a building height plane. The ordinance does not limit the height of buildings in most of the downtown area (defined as N. 13th Street, I-235, Classen/Shartel and south to the river).

The Downtown Design Reivew may have "guidelines" but those are not ordinances and are not codified. They may raise questions about compatibility and impact of a building's height, and could deny a request, but that could easily be appealed, and imo, unless there was something drastically negative about the proposal, it would get approved. After all, it is downtown and large, tall developments are specifically allowed there.
Good info, thanks. I do recall the guidelines published in late nineties used a lot of language like "generally encouraged" etc. I wasn't thinking necessarily code, but like you say I recall lots of strong emphasis placed on horizontal rather than vertical in AA, for instance.

So it says that OKC is on the North American HQ list. OKC was on AA list as well and we lost out to Indy. What makes some people act as if this co. is for sure building here?

^

No one is sure about anything but in addition to that article in the Oklahoman there have been lots of rumors floating around in this vein.

And by rumors, I don't mean just the ones on this board. I've heard rumblings for several different sources myself.

I am going to channel my inner metro - it was not AA, it was United that selected Indy over OKC.

I don't know why I didn't think of this before but does anyone think the Chamber could have been refering to Frac Tech International? Chesapeake owns a 30% interest (though likely trying to sell it off to Sinopec/CNOOC), Aubrey and Chesapeake's current CFO sit on the board. Sinopec is currently in talks to acquire a 30% interest for 2.2 billion putting this companies market cap value near $7.3 billion. This seems kind of small, however the 2.2 billion in cash could help build a nice new tower in downton OKC. Not a likely contender but an interesting one.

I am going to channel my inner metro - it was not AA, it was United that selected Indy over OKC.
One of the best things that ever happened to OKC...

Well. at least if we get a downtown grocery store, people will no longer be able to use that as an excuse for not moving downtown. But I agree that Steve's article doesn't exactly make you think it's time to relocate the construction cam.

The article was from a year ago...

Please don't take offense to this but can people please try to get in the habit of posting the full name before using acronyms? If someone is not directly involved in what you are talking about then most people have no idea what they are. Start at the top of page 39 and read down the page and look at all the symbols, acronyms. Just to name a few... DBD, DTD-1, DTD-2, CBD, TAP, AA, WPNBA, CNOOC, CC

I understand a few of them but some of them I am left scratching my head. I know that no one including myself likes to have someone correct grammar or spelling but I am just trying to understand the posts.

Thanks.

CBD - Central Business District
AA - American Airlines (in the context of above), can also mean Alternative Analysis when it comes to the transit study, or Automobile Alley.
WPNBA - Women's Professional National Basketball Association (I think?)
CC - Convention Center

Thank you catch22 and I apologize for getting off subject.

One of the best things that ever happened to OKC...

+1

One of the best things that ever happened to OKC...


+1

+2

Well. at least if we get a downtown grocery store, people will no longer be able to use that as an excuse for not moving downtown. But I agree that Steve's article doesn't exactly make you think it's time to relocate the construction cam.
I thought we were getting Native Roots across the street from you. Shouldn't you say when it opens instead?

I thought we were getting Native Roots across the street from you. Shouldn't you say when it opens instead?

Picky, picky, metro.

I am very excited about this project! I am reserving judgment until I see some site plans, but this has potential to be a winner to bring that side of Bricktown to life; and as mentioned help tie in the Deep Deuce area with Bricktown a little more. That corner of Sheridan may very well be our next true "urban" corner, all that needs to be developed to achieve that will be the SE corner north of the IHOP.

Hopefully the city doesn't drop the ball....

Pete - the reasons you give don't add up for me. It's all speculative and it doesn't make business sense. People don't move downtown unless it makes some overwhelming dollar sense to them because it costs so much more to BE downtown. Why do you think so many places build on memorial? Simply being under one roof doesn't do it. And especially if you build your own building. It's far more economical to lease space than own in the office world. Mostly because you are then mobile and not tied to something later. It's not like manufacturing. There are ups and downs both ways, but generally speaking, if you are going to build a tower, you better have a damned good reason for doing it (like being spread out in 6 different buildings and requiring 50 floors to even consolidate)....cough cough.

But for AF, there's no reason. It's not like OG&E and their pipeline company where it moves the B2B closer together so you can walk over (which i would still argue is a poor decision...ever heard of the phone or video conferencing). Rent is higher, your commute for sure increases no matter what because of downtown traffic in/out. Telecom downtown SUCKS! All that copper down there rather than fiber is worthless and power is flakey.

Where AF is, they aren't out of growth room either. They don't need to work closely with anyone downtown. And as I've said before, they don't get anything out of consolidating under one roof for two divisions....remember there are several other divisions of the family's company that wouldn't be included.

We can speculate and say how cool it would be to have them move and all, but at the end of the day, i don't buy it. And what's worse in the whole thing is if they do move, you won't be able to fill their old buildings up. So yeah you've moved WITHIN the city to downtown and simply left a big block of office space on classesn to sit abandoned. It's sort of like Wal-Mart. YAY, you got your Super Center, but what the crap are you going to do with the old building now. Simply shuffling within the city doesn't get you jack. What you want, it someone moving in from outside the city....like CR taking over Devon space. That's where you do the happy dance.

Picky, picky, metro.

My point wasn't the grammar, but that we ARE getting a DT grocer!

After driving by the 5th and Broadway lot on the NE corner, I'd say it'd be perfect for a midrise, and maybe would be just the catalyst Auto Alley needs to be a thriving urban district and take it to the next level. Man, with a mid-rise, some housing, and the street car, AA would be the place to be.

TAP = TAP Architecture (originally The Architectural Partnership, though they almost exclusively brand as TAP Architecture now)
AA = Automobile Alley historic district

After driving by the 5th and Broadway lot on the NE corner, I'd say it'd be perfect for a midrise, and maybe would be just the catalyst Auto Alley needs to be a thriving urban district and take it to the next level. Man witha mid-rise, some housing, and the street car, AA would be the place to be.
I agree; mid-rise housing with retail/mixed use street level would be a fantastic fit on that spot, and really help better tie AA to the CBD.

Pete - the reasons you give don't add up for me. It's all speculative and it doesn't make business sense. People don't move downtown unless it makes some overwhelming dollar sense to them because it costs so much more to BE downtown. Why do you think so many places build on memorial? Simply being under one roof doesn't do it. And especially if you build your own building. It's far more economical to lease space than own in the office world. Mostly because you are then mobile and not tied to something later. It's not like manufacturing. There are ups and downs both ways, but generally speaking, if you are going to build a tower, you better have a damned good reason for doing it (like being spread out in 6 different buildings and requiring 50 floors to even consolidate)....cough cough.

But for AF, there's no reason. It's not like OG&E and their pipeline company where it moves the B2B closer together so you can walk over (which i would still argue is a poor decision...ever heard of the phone or video conferencing). Rent is higher, your commute for sure increases no matter what because of downtown traffic in/out. Telecom downtown SUCKS! All that copper down there rather than fiber is worthless and power is flakey.

Where AF is, they aren't out of growth room either. They don't need to work closely with anyone downtown. And as I've said before, they don't get anything out of consolidating under one roof for two divisions....remember there are several other divisions of the family's company that wouldn't be included.

We can speculate and say how cool it would be to have them move and all, but at the end of the day, i don't buy it. And what's worse in the whole thing is if they do move, you won't be able to fill their old buildings up. So yeah you've moved WITHIN the city to downtown and simply left a big block of office space on classesn to sit abandoned. It's sort of like Wal-Mart. YAY, you got your Super Center, but what the crap are you going to do with the old building now. Simply shuffling within the city doesn't get you jack. What you want, it someone moving in from outside the city....like CR taking over Devon space. That's where you do the happy dance.

a private company .. (AF /FF) need no reason to move downtown (or anywhere else) other than the owners wishes .... period end of story ..

and as far as what they vacate .. it could very likely be filled or redeveloped into a better use

Pete - the reasons you give don't add up for me. It's all speculative and it doesn't make business sense. People don't move downtown unless it makes some overwhelming dollar sense to them because it costs so much more to BE downtown. Why do you think so many places build on memorial? Simply being under one roof doesn't do it. And especially if you build your own building. It's far more economical to lease space than own in the office world. Mostly because you are then mobile and not tied to something later. It's not like manufacturing. There are ups and downs both ways, but generally speaking, if you are going to build a tower, you better have a damned good reason for doing it (like being spread out in 6 different buildings and requiring 50 floors to even consolidate)....cough cough.

But they've already made it known they would like to move downtown; we could speculate why all day long but they made that leap years ago so the reasons don't really matter.

Using your logic no one would be downtown.

If I was a CEO of a large enterprise in OKC I guarantee you I'd move downtown and I know lots of others feel that way. For a project that is going to cost hundreds of millions, a few million extra for land is not going to make a big difference.