Here's my take on this; percentages indicate probability / confidence level. Heights are best guesses.

1. OG&E Tower. 99%; 15 to 25 stories.
2. Main & Hudson Tower. 75%; 30 to 45 stories.
3. South of OG&E 1. 60%; 20 to 40 stories.
4. South of OG&E 2. 60%; 20 to 40 stories.
5. OG&E site. 50%; 15 to 25 stories.
6. B of A Drive-Thru. 40%; 20 to 30 stories.
7. Dowell Residential. 30%; 10 to 20 stories.
8. Convention Hotel. 60%; 20 to 30 stories.
9. 4th & EK Gaylord. 10%; 20 to 30 stories.
10. Bricktown Marriott. 60%; 10 to 20 stories.

"So, you're saying there's a chance"!! :)

Here's my take on this; percentages indicate probability / confidence level. Heights are best guesses.

1. OG&E Tower. 99%; 15 to 25 stories.
2. Main & Hudson Tower. 75%; 30 to 45 stories.
3. South of OG&E 1. 60%; 20 to 40 stories.
4. South of OG&E 2. 60%; 20 to 40 stories.
5. OG&E site. 50%; 15 to 25 stories.
6. B of A Drive-Thru. 40%; 20 to 30 stories.
7. Dowell Residential. 30%; 10 to 20 stories.
8. Convention Hotel. 60%; 20 to 30 stories.
9. 4th & EK Gaylord. 10%; 20 to 30 stories.
10. Bricktown Marriott. 60%; 10 to 20 stories.I thought at one point the BoA drive thru was going to be fairly tall, as in 40+ stories. Not sure why I think that, but is that not the case?

I have never heard any specifics about the BofA site, other than people were looking and interested and core samples have been taken.

I thought at one point the BoA drive thru was going to be fairly tall, as in 40+ stories. Not sure why I think that, but is that not the case?

This might have been where you got that from, but it is the Preftakes block, not BOA:


The property at Main & Hudson is not very big which will limit the size of the footprint and floor plates.

But assuming somewhere near 20,000 SF per floor, that would be approx. 40 stories.

With Pickard Chilton involved, you can bet one of the goals is to balance out the skyline; slot this tower somewhere between Devon and Chase.

You may remember that PC said they took cues from First National and athough surrounding buildings when they designed Devon Tower.

If Pete posts that he heard from a good source that XYZ was happening, and then it doesn't, no harm no foul.

In my experience Pete takes this site very seriously and if he attaches his name to speculation then he feels very good about his source. He is not held to the same standard that Steve is, but I trust his judgment every bit as much as I do Steve's.

In my experience Pete takes this site very seriously and if he attaches his name to speculation then he feels very good about his source. He is not held to the same standard that Steve is, but I trust his judgment every bit as much as I do Steve's.

I don't disagree. As I said, I hold print journalism (even if its online now) to a different standard. It's a different method of communication. It is more formal, I guess you could say.

If you go to Newsok.com's post of the tower story on facebook, you can see that "Thunder" is still alive and well. And he made fun of Steve in one of the comments...

If you go to Newsok.com's post of the tower story on facebook, you can see that "Thunder" is still alive and well. And he made fun of Steve in one of the comments...I've always wondered about that dude and now I know. Very interesting character.

Deleted

I actually liked Thunder, but he was odd and quite young.

Here's my take on this; percentages indicate probability / confidence level. Heights are best guesses.

1. OG&E Tower. 99%; 15 to 25 stories.
2. Main & Hudson Tower. 75%; 30 to 45 stories.
3. South of OG&E 1. 60%; 20 to 40 stories.
4. South of OG&E 2. 60%; 20 to 40 stories.
5. OG&E site. 50%; 15 to 25 stories.
6. B of A Drive-Thru. 40%; 20 to 30 stories.
7. Dowell Residential. 30%; 10 to 20 stories.
8. Convention Hotel. 60%; 20 to 30 stories.
9. 4th & EK Gaylord. 10%; 20 to 30 stories.
10. Bricktown Marriott. 60%; 10 to 20 stories.

I take it by this post that the Lumberyard site is officially a complete pipe dream?

I've got some good news and some bad news for the Main & Hudson site.

I'm told it's almost certainly going to happen, and soon. So that's good.

But I'm also told my height projections are too high; looks like this might turn out to be 20 to 25 stories.

I've got some good news and some bad news for the Main & Hudson site.

I'm told it's almost certainly going to happen, and soon. So that's good.

But I'm also told my height projections are too high; looks like this might turn out to be 20 to 25 stories.

If it's 25 at 16ft a floor that's 400ft. Not too shabby at all.

What about the Bricktown Lumberyard Towers? You forgot those 20-45 story towers that we are getting!

Main/Hudson would be the Devon #2, right? So I can see how they don't want to undermine their own existing tower.

Here's my take on this; percentages indicate probability / confidence level. Heights are best guesses.

1. OG&E Tower. 99%; 15 to 25 stories.
2. Main & Hudson Tower. 75%; 30 to 45 stories.
3. South of OG&E 1. 60%; 20 to 40 stories.
4. South of OG&E 2. 60%; 20 to 40 stories.
5. OG&E site. 50%; 15 to 25 stories.
6. B of A Drive-Thru. 40%; 20 to 30 stories.
7. Dowell Residential. 30%; 10 to 20 stories.
8. Convention Hotel. 60%; 20 to 30 stories.
9. 4th & EK Gaylord. 10%; 20 to 30 stories.
10. Bricktown Marriott. 60%; 10 to 20 stories.


Just to make it an easier comparison, here's what we currently have in OKC:

Devon Energy Center
Height 844 ft, Floors 50, Year Completed 2012

Chase Tower
Height 500 ft, Floors 36, Year Completed 1971

First National Center
Height 493 ft, Floors 33, Year Completed 1931

City Place Tower
Height 440 ft, Floors 33, Year Completed 1931

Oklahoma Tower
Height 434 ft, Floors 31, Year Completed 1982

SandRidge Center
Height 393 ft, Floors 30, Year Completed 1973

Valliance Bank Tower (Outside of Downtown)
Height 321 ft, Floors 22, Year Completed 1984

Bank of Oklahoma Plaza
Height 310 ft, Floors 16, Year Completed 1972

I'm good with 25. I'd rather they built something that filled up quickly and spurred demand for yet another tower vs something they had trouble filling thus killing the market.

If the listed locations were constructed with 16ft floors, here's the minimum and maximum height for each building:

OG&E Tower,
Height 240ft - 400ft, Floors 15 to 25

Main & Hudson Tower
Height 480ft - 720ft, Floors 30 to 45

South of OG&E 1
Height 320ft - 640ft, Floors 20 to 40

South of OG&E 2
Height 320ft - 640ft, Floors 20 to 40

OG&E site
Height 240ft - 400ft, Floors 15 to 25

B of A Drive-Thru
Height 320ft - 480ft, Floors 20 to 30

Dowell Residential
Height 160ft - 320ft, Floors 10 to 20

Convention Hotel
Height 320ft - 480ft, Floors 20 to 30

4th & EK Gaylord
Height 320ft - 480ft, Floors 20 to 30

Bricktown Marriott
Height 160ft - 320ft, Floors 10 to 20

For comparison, does anyone know off the top of their head the height in feet of Chase, Devon, and leadership?

Chase is 500 feet, Devon is 850.

One Leadership Square (North Tower) is 308 feet/22 stories and Two Leadership Square (South Tower) is 224 feet/16 stories.

This really shouldn't be much of a surprise, but I'll say it anyways.... I hope it is much higher than 25 stories.

(I almost added to my post: Cue PluPlan demand for 300 stories)

(I almost added to my post: Cue PluPlan demand for 300 stories)Hey man... at least I'm not like this Thunder dude who was demanding on Facebook the other every new skyscraper should be required to have a minimum of 800ft.

Don't get me wrong here, I'll take this over nothing. Still very excited even if all of these happen and they're under 30 stories; I'd just prefer taller.

Reports of new downtown towers take hope sky-high:

By Steve Lackmeyer Published: August 19, 2014


http://i51.tinypic.com/1zqwzk6.jpg

https://sp3.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.607988879114962859&pid=15.1&P=0 https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ92HryCXmMk4mb7ikzMxwmRUZeIvIIq eH9kdQ7fWqpkP8NRfHvow https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ52xMXTYWIalo1mtUPJsDOAkyPb_ubY kd8kGc_CP8ur_UyaIVf


Consider what is already public knowledge: Rainey Williams Jr. is preparing to build a mid-rise tower (though it may end up higher when built) for OGE Energy Corp...

Serious discussions, meanwhile, have been going on for months about another tower to be built at Hudson Avenue and Main Street. The block, acquired by Nick Preftakes over the past decade, has long been associated with potential expansion of Devon Energy, which has its own 50-story headquarters to the east.

...Count it all up and up to six new towers could be added to the downtown Oklahoma City skyline over the next few years — and this does not include the prospect of a 15- to 20-story conference hotel that civic leaders hope to see built next to the future convention center at Reno and Robinson Avenues.

http://oklahoman.com/reports-of-new-downtown-towers-take-hope-sky-high/article/5299202

Get ready to see some major changes in the Oklahoma City skyline over the next five years. Lackmeyer did not elaborate on the companies that need space in the OKC downtown market; however, if just three of these six towers are built you will see some major changes to the skyline. When they mentioned towers, it's understood to mean something in the range of 25 stories. Steve refers to the 16-18 story OG&E tower as a mid rise tower.

The article went on to mention that this does not include the prospect of a 15- to 20-story conference hotel that civic leaders hope to see built next to the future convention center at Reno and Robinson Avenues.


http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

Whatever the height is, if they don't get the street level correct then it doesn't really matter.

I think 25 is a really nice balance. Easier to spread those out and manage utilities, traffic, parking etc than the Devon like towers.

:ohno:

SID IS ADVOCATING FOR SPRAWL!!!! WHAT IS THE WORLD COMING TO?!

[/Sarcasm]

If OKC was willing to require underground parking and invest HEAVILY in downtown transit then I think I'd be more in favor of the taller towers. Otherwise, we run the risk of being a victim of our own success and if traffic and parking gets horrible, people will start demanding another downtown highway and more silly managed parking garages.

What's the hang-up with parking garages? Obviously they're nobody's favorite development, but when done right, they don't really detract from and can actually quickly fill-in, the urban fabric…even something like the 123 Garage. If they have street-level mixed-use like Main-Street I really don't see the downfall.

Is there really a difference between a parking garage and Maywood I?

I love to chew the fat on this board as much as anybody, and I agree that folks on here have influenced some projects - for instance Guyutes - through actions. But I'm sorry...do you really think a few people whining about building height on a message board are going to cause a publicly-traded corporation to make height alterations to their headquarters, resulting in tens of millions if not more in additional expense? If they are adding height it is because a pro forma told them to.

To be honest, I always suspected (and hoped) the initially-announced height was intentionally kept low so that the developers could under-promise and then over-deliver.

No. But it is fair to say that the conversations here are somewhat reflective of conversations being had elsewhere among influencers in this city. People -- and corporations -- care how they are viewed publicly. That's why they spend so much on PR.

Ask Pete about the amount of traffic on some of these threads. It is astronomical at times. Most of the people who visit this site don't contribute, but they are influenced and what they read here they pass along to others in conversation. This website if pretty ninja.

What's the hang-up with parking garages? Obviously they're nobody's favorite development, but when done right, they don't really detract from and can actually quickly fill-in, the urban fabric…even something like the 123 Garage. If they have street-level mixed-use like Main-Street I really don't see the downfall.

Is there really a difference between a parking garage and Maywood I?

Yes. Terrible street walls of nothing. Also, not good portals for retail. Rather have people than stationary cars. You?

Yes. Terrible street walls of nothing. Also, not good portals for retail. Rather have people than stationary cars. You?

Maywood I: Terrible Street wall of "nothing" √
Maywood I: Not good portal for retail √
Maywood I: Rather have people than stationary cars…half-check.

Once you're over the first 10 to 20 feet of a building, I don't care what's above me. Main-Street Parking Garage is a better development than Maywood I for street-life.

People actually do drive into downtown and they do actually need places to park. I hope we never again allow something as mammoth and ugly/uninviting and space-killing as the Santa Fe garage…but that doesn't mean that parking garages should be right out…especially for a place like OKC that is starving for infill to complete the urban fabric.

I've said this before, but on any run of the mill street, as long as the corners are developed properly, anything can go in the middle, most especially parking garages. That's the big problem with Santa Fe…it screws up *2* corners and provides nothing in between.

And I'm not saying I want garages galore, or that they shouldn't have to make sense…but they are not death-knells for a street.

I think 25 stories is great and don't view that as bad news. Tall towers are awesome, but we don't need to be NYC just yet. I'd rather have a bunch of 25 story towers popping up and creating infill than a couple 40-50 story towers that leave a lot of undeveloped space for a while.

I would like to see an interior parking garages, meaning a parking garage in the middle of a block with buildings surrounding it. Kind of like the Devon parking garage if there was something on the west side. I would think something like this would be doable, especially if you are developing an entire block. Have an entrance on a street with the second least amount of traffic and the exit on the street with the least amount of traffic.

For example, if Rainey were to build a parking garage on the interior area of the SC block, have an entrance off of Hudson and the exit off of Walker. Since most people in the building are probably going to be working 9-5 anyways, you will avoid most of the school traffic.

Then, build the building to the street facing the Myriad Gardens and have the other tower built to the street facing Sheridan. If it is going up an significant amount of height, you can add housing above the garage as well. Not an architect, just love urban development.

A 25 story tower is nice, but I'd rather have a 40 story. Something in the 650 to 700 foot range would help balance the skyline.

I think as long as our local economy continues to be as strong as it has, most of these get built. This round of construction really will be a "game changer" for OKC. We are talking about potentially having 5 new towers on Hudson. It will forever change the city. Together these projects will have a greater impact than Devon tower.

As long as I'm dreaming about the future ( :) ), the real test will be how OKC's office market looks after these towers are built. If we have 25% vacancy of class A space after this construction, then I think the tower boom would be over. If we are still at like 2% vacancy, I think this would be just the start.

If OKC was willing to require underground parking and invest HEAVILY in downtown transit then I think I'd be more in favor of the taller towers. Otherwise, we run the risk of being a victim of our own success and if traffic and parking gets horrible, people will start demanding another downtown highway and more silly managed parking garages.

You probably know more about this then I do, but from people I've talked to who design these sort of things tell me underground parking is a no go because the water table isn't deep enough. The sheer cost of it makes it advantageous to build above ground garages.

As far as I know, there are no garages downtown that go farther underground than two levels; and I can think of a bunch that go that far but no lower.

Might just be economics -- not sure as to the reasons.

The Murrah garage, which is still in use, goes down 5 stories according to the guards there.

I know it doesn't seem like it, but the Murrah garage is on a hilltop compared to most of the CBD. I was getting ready to say that stuff in, for instance, Rick Dowell's part of downtown can go deeper without hitting the water table compared to the area around MBG, where water is 15-20 feet below the surface.

It is economics. Underground parking is considerably more expensive than a parking garage. In addition to the obvious stuff, like preventing water intrusion and structural considerations, underground garages require fire protection and a significant mechanical systems for exhausting vehicle fumes.

I understand what Sid is talking about. Here in downtown Seattle, the majority of parking occurs under buildings. Oftentimes is 5-8 levels below grade. It's really nice to have it all completely out of sight and to have the appearance of a people-oriented downtown. But the decision to bury parking is a pragmatic one. Given the geographical barriers of downtown Seattle, land use has to be much more carefully considered to maximize profitability. Dedicating a parcel of land just for the purpose of parking cars often does not make financial sense here.

Building underground structures in areas with high water tables is nothing new and certainly possible. However, it comes with a price tag. In OKC, with all the available, developable land, it doesn't make financial sense to (literally) sink money into an underground parking structure, when one can be built next door for a fraction of the cost.

I would prefer underground parking in DTOKC, but I'm not sure how to encourage it. A sweeping city requirement might have a chilling effect on high-rise construction by making profitable projects unprofitable due to increase costs. I don't know the answer.

Right now the next best thing is providing street level retail or wrapping the garage with buildings.

It is economics. Underground parking is considerably more expensive than a parking garage. In addition to the obvious stuff, like preventing water intrusion and structural considerations, underground garages require fire protection and a significant mechanical systems for exhausting vehicle fumes.

I understand what Sid is talking about. Here in downtown Seattle, the majority of parking occurs under buildings. Oftentimes is 5-8 levels below grade. It's really nice to have it all completely out of sight and to have the appearance of a people-oriented downtown. But the decision to bury parking is a pragmatic one. Given the geographical barriers of downtown Seattle, land use has to be much more carefully considered to maximize profitability. Dedicating a parcel of land just for the purpose of parking cars often does not make financial sense here.

Building underground structures in areas with high water tables is nothing new and certainly possible. However, it comes with a price tag. In OKC, with all the available, developable land, it doesn't make financial sense to (literally) sink money into an underground parking structure, when one can be built next door for a fraction of the cost.

I would prefer underground parking in DTOKC, but I'm not sure how to encourage it. A sweeping city requirement might have a chilling effect on high-rise construction by making profitable projects unprofitable due to increase costs. I don't know the answer.

Right now the next best thing is providing street level retail or wrapping the garage with buildings.

Just camouflage them.

9008

I know it doesn't seem like it, but the Murrah garage is on a hilltop compared to most of the CBD. I was getting ready to say that stuff in, for instance, Rick Dowell's part of downtown can go deeper without hitting the water table compared to the area around MBG, where water is 15-20 feet below the surface.

I ride my bike up that dang hill of Harvey, it certainly does seem like it. :-)

(although that hill is fun to cruise down at night with no one around)

(although that hill is fun to cruise down at night with no one around)

The spiral ramps at the Santa Fe Garage can be pretty fun too :D

The spiral ramps at the Santa Fe Garage can be pretty fun too :D

I'll have to try that

Cautrode nailed it as to why you don't see underground garages in Oklahoma. Land values are just not at such a premium where in pencils out to do it in all but the rarest cases. Devon, for example, has an underground garage for executives. I've priced several underground garages and the additional excavation, shoring/foundation walls, waterproofing, permanent dewatering (if below the water table) and mechanical exhaust systems add lots of costs. Whereas a surface parking stall is in the $3-5,000 range an above grade garage can be $15-20,000 and below grade upwards of $30,000. That's a big difference.

As far as I know, there are no garages downtown that go farther underground than two levels; and I can think of a bunch that go that far but no lower.

Might just be economics -- not sure as to the reasons.

If I recall when they built the Myriad Convention Center in the 70s they originally planned to have a double underground parking garage.
Downtown Oklahoma City was established on a riverbed; therefore they weren't able to dig past one level because of the water tables.

We're going to have to live with the massive parking garages until downtown expands outward or crosses beyond the Oklahoma river.

If you live in the Metropolitan Oklahoma City area, you more than likely will need a vehicle to move about. Our public transportation is adequate but needs work.


http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

Yes. Terrible street walls of nothing. Also, not good portals for retail. Rather have people than stationary cars. You?Do you remember the glory days of downtown OKC that ended due to urban renewal? In those days, we had a number of large parking garages, and none of them created "street walls of nothing." There was the Terminal Building garage on what is now Sheriday between Harvey and Hudson; it was in the middle of, and took up almost half of, the block. But rather than forming a street wall, it channeled traffic in both directions and actually increased pedestrian involvement. There was even a group of businesses that faced the alleyway between this operation and Harvey to the east, which became a pedestrian paradise.

Up on Main Street, between Broadway and Robinson on the north side of the street, we had First National's competitor to it, which took up very little space that could have been used for retail. It included a basement that formed the drive-through for the bank itself, and most of its ground level remained useful as retail.

The still-here Auto Hotel didn't keep folk from walking past it to reach the only kosher deli in the city, then. Neither did the KerMac private garage up on NW 2 prevent people from strolling by.

Most of these actually increased walkability by providing off-street parking, which meant we had to walk the final block or three to our actual downtown destinations. Not many drivers who went downtown expected to find an empty spot on a curb, or to complete their business within the half-hour allowed by most of the meters. We checked into one of the public garages instead, where there was no time limit. And not a few bigger retailers had deals where they would stamp our ticket and give us an hour's parking for free...

Not all public garages are as bad as Santa Fe or the new one on Main Street!

You probably know more about this then I do, but from people I've talked to who design these sort of things tell me underground parking is a no go because the water table isn't deep enough. The sheer cost of it makes it advantageous to build above ground garages.

It is almost twenty feet before the water table becomes an issue downtown, though in many places like NY where space is a premium they can just us a blend of concrete designed to form effectively a large reverse bathtub

Live chat:



12:09
Steve Lackmeyer: We should know about most or all of them within the next five years, some much sooner.

We should know about most or all of them within the next five years, some much sooner.

That's an economic eon.

Live chat:
and by the time those are announced, we will likely have even more proposed or possibly announced, so this is exciting!

A 25 story tower is nice, but I'd rather have a 40 story. Something in the 650 to 700 foot range would help balance the skyline.

I think as long as our local economy continues to be as strong as it has, most of these get built. This round of construction really will be a "game changer" for OKC. We are talking about potentially having 5 new towers on Hudson. It will forever change the city. Together these projects will have a greater impact than Devon tower.

As long as I'm dreaming about the future ( :) ), the real test will be how OKC's office market looks after these towers are built. If we have 25% vacancy of class A space after this construction, then I think the tower boom would be over. If we are still at like 2% vacancy, I think this would be just the start.

I agree. I would really like to see OKC get a new second tallest. However, that is exciting to this of having all of those towers going up on Hudson at virtually the same time. Even though they are much shorter than the Devon tower, they will still help balance the skyline from the southwest angle, which is the angle it currently looks worst from.

Steve mentioned the Main and Hudson site as the Tower he is most excited about in his weekly chat. I am thinking he knows more than he is letting on and this could be a really great project for us. If the drawings that Pete showed us where they were looking to save the existing buildings and build up through them is some indication. We could have a project that saves the original buidlings facades and have a unique skyscraper above. That is what I am hoping and predicting with my crystal ball.

Most new towers built in this era are between 20 - 30 stories.

I think Height is great and a balance of the skyline will make a world of difference. however I have to say that I am more excited to see what possible design ideas may appear rather than just height. I will be just as happy with a 20-30 story structure if it is an interesting addition to the skyline rather than just a tall building that isn't that interesting.

Yeah, I'm okay with a tall, interesting building, if that's what they want to build.

Yeah, I'm okay with a tall, interesting building, if that's what they want to build.

Yeah, we know its not going to be a mammoth Devon Tower, so I am hoping for something crazy and unique. Vancouver has an awesome residentail tower going up soon that is unique.

Vancouver House (http://vancouverhouse.ca/)

Designed by Bjarke Ingels

Here is his website.

BIG | Bjarke Ingels Group (http://big.dk)

I love Vancouver, and that tower looks awesome. But why are they building a new res tower when the can't even fill the ones they already have because of prices?

Yeah, we know its not going to be a mammoth Devon Tower, so I am hoping for something crazy and unique. Vancouver has an awesome residentail tower going up soon that is unique.

Vancouver House (http://vancouverhouse.ca/)

Designed by Bjarke Ingels

Here is his website.

BIG | Bjarke Ingels Group (http://big.dk)That is awesome! Not only the building, but the features. The beach district with paintings or screens under the bridge, being able to reserve BMW's including the i8, and some of the buildings features is incredible!

I love Vancouver, and that tower looks awesome. But why are they building a new res tower when the can't even fill the ones they already have because of prices?

I did not do the economic analysis on building their towers. I just like the design and it will be the highest priced Res tower in Vancouver with the great views and amenities.