So this story about the Cox Center being demolished is just speculation? While I think the space could be used for other things, I am skeptical that it will be torn down in the next 20+ years. The city often raves about having two arenas next to each other for playoff games and other events and if I understand correctly, this new convention center will not have an arena. The Oklahoma City Barons will be without a home for one thing and the idea of sharing the Chesapeake Arena also seems challenging. The reason I say this is because I am already hearing complaints of Oklahoma City losing concerts and events to Tulsa because the Oklahoma City Thunder games have it booked up. If the Barons and the Thunder are using our only arena then we are even less available for concerts.

While these buildings may be dated and in the way, I still think the general public may be unaware that this new convention center will not have an arena. I also think that the public will take some convincing to build another arena when we still haven's seen any of the MAPS 3 projects built. I could be misunderstanding the situation but I am not buying that the Cox Center will be destroyed in less than 20 years.

Couple of things here:

1) The only time having two arenas next to each other mattered is when we were hosting the Big 12 basketball tournament. It is in Kansas City now and has been for several years. That is valid through 2016 and then it is up for renewal again. The State Fairgrounds arena could easily host the women's tourney if it were to come back.

2) I would be shocked if the Barons are here after next season. It seems like the Funk's have become more interested in a soccer team (which is more profitable to them) than a hockey team where we get 2,000-4,000 fans if we are lucky.

3) The arena could be shared by the Thunder, Dallas did it for several years before we had a chance to host and it was fine. You just schedule a stretch of away games during that time. The Peake is host to the 2014 NCAA Women's Volleyball Championship December 18-20 in which the flooring will have to be completely redone and seats reconfigured, but it can be done.

Reminder that here in L.A., we have TWO NBA teams in the Staples Center PLUS the Kings of the NHL PLUS way more concerts and events than the Peake.

OKC doesn't need two arenas, especially when the second one is 45 years old and taking up a super block of prime downtown real estate.

Disregard my last post.

Disregard my last post.

Staples Center is the only venue in the entire Los Angeles area that has concerts?

Staples Center is the only venue in the entire Los Angeles area that has concerts?

Not nearly but it still gets an absolute ton.

It's not uncommon for them to have multiple events in there in one day.

Everything is disposable to our city.

Stage Center, Film Exchange buildings, Cox Center..... They are just dated buildings in the way.

There's a big difference between the first two you listed and the Cox Center.

I have yet to see any rendering on future development around MBG - be it the new convention center or the transit hub - that includes the Cox Convention Center. I seriously doubt extending the canal west of the railroad is ever going to happen. At most you will probably see some better connectivity to transit hub but that is about it.

Maybe Urbanized can answer this - is the water level in the canal at the same elevation along the whole canal (like a swimming pool), or does it flow downhill? I thought there was a 13' elevation drop but can't find it anywhere.

I have yet to see any rendering on future development around MBG - be it the new convention center or the transit hub - that includes the Cox Convention Center. I seriously doubt extending the canal west of the railroad is ever going to happen. At most you will probably see some better connectivity to transit hub but that is about it.

Maybe Urbanized can answer this - is the water level in the canal at the same elevation along the whole canal (like a swimming pool), or does it flow downhill? I thought there was a 13' elevation drop but can't find it anywhere.

The water level is the same the entire length of the canal.

Thanks. I remember there was a significant elevation difference between the upper and lower canal but didn't remember how they corrected it. I guess it was a lot of fill dirt.

The arena has an ice making system. Getting rid of the Cox would be common for most cities. They have hockey and basketball and concerts, etc. in the same venue.

The arena has an ice making system. Getting rid of the Cox would be common for most cities. They have hockey and basketball and concerts, etc. in the same venue.

Agree. That's why I don't by excuse that the reason Tulsa gets most big-name concerts is because of the Thunder occupying the Peake.

Agree. That's why I don't by excuse that the reason Tulsa gets most big-name concerts is because of the Thunder occupying the Peake.

A lot of that had to do with aggressive off-season renovations.

There are more this time around too; the entire club level is being remodeled.

The reason the BOK is getting more big name concerts than The Peake is because it is newer and partly because of the Thunder. When the Ford Center opened, there were a ton of national big named acts coming to play in OKC. It was a newer market with a good size venue. But, now that the Thunder are playing there, there might only be a night or two that they can play in OKC and the Thunder are playing that night, so instead of changing everything around for one night, they keep it the same and let it go to the BOK in Tulsa. Keep in mind SMG manages the Cox Arena, CHK Energy Arena and the BOK Center. They know what is going where.

Agree. That's why I don't by excuse that the reason Tulsa gets most big-name concerts is because of the Thunder occupying the Peake.

I'm not really sure what there is to buy. Where is it easier to schedule a concert: in a large venue booked by 45 Preseason and regular season thunder games from October to April and 2 months of potential playoff games that may or may not occur in addition to all other large venue events and concerts or in a large venue with no primary tenant that can still attract people from both markets? The Ford Center was one of the ranked one of the best performing concert venues in the country until the Hornets/Thunder came to town.

... is the water level in the canal at the same elevation along the whole canal (like a swimming pool), or does it flow downhill? I thought there was a 13' elevation drop but can't find it anywhere.

The main different elevation talk with the canal has been between the canal and the river (which on at least some engineering documents the tributary path to the canal is still called the Bricktown Canal), the Canal Zone G (which would more appropriately be called the river extension) name comes from early on they were considering another lock to traverse the 17 foot difference. Eventually the lock got cut out and so when they recently completed the river portion that 'connects' the river to the canal, we instead have canal taxi & river cruiser stops a short distance from each other.

I'm not really sure what there is to buy. Where is it easier to schedule a concert: in a large venue booked by 45 Preseason and regular season thunder games from October to April and 2 months of potential playoff games that may or may not occur in addition to all other large venue events and concerts or in a large venue with no primary tenant that can still attract people from both markets? The Ford Center was one of the ranked one of the best performing concert venues in the country until the Hornets/Thunder came to town.

Don't know where I heard it, but SMG routinely directs shows to BOK over the Peake for financial reasons as well. Despite more concerts in Tulsa, the Peake is considerably more profitable than the BOK because it has a "Big 4" sports tenant in the NBA and can demand a premium in naming rights, ticket prices, concessions, etc. The Shock/Oilers simply do not have the same attendance pull. Arenas make their money off of sports, not concerts. SMG knows that people in OKC will drive for concerts in Tulsa, so it purposefully fattens its margins up there where it can.

Don't know where I heard it, but SMG routinely directs shows to BOK over the Peake for financial reasons as well. Despite more concerts in Tulsa, the Peake is considerably more profitable than the BOK because it has a "Big 4" sports tenant in the NBA and can demand a premium in naming rights, ticket prices, concessions, etc. The Shock/Oilers simply do not have the same attendance pull. Arenas make their money off of sports, not concerts. SMG knows that people in OKC will drive for concerts in Tulsa, so it purposefully fattens its margins up there where it can.

Exactly. I also don't mind driving to BOK for concerts - a great concert venue in its own right.

I have yet to see any rendering on future development around MBG - be it the new convention center or the transit hub - that includes the Cox Convention Center. I seriously doubt extending the canal west of the railroad is ever going to happen. At most you will probably see some better connectivity to transit hub but that is about it.

Maybe Urbanized can answer this - is the water level in the canal at the same elevation along the whole canal (like a swimming pool), or does it flow downhill? I thought there was a 13' elevation drop but can't find it anywhere.

It has already been answered for the most part, but the pool elevation is the same the length of the canal. As a captive body of water the only way there could be an elevation change is if there were a lock or locks, which would make no sense as due to size/power characteristics vessels in each respective body of water could not navigate the other even if the two bodies were connected. Simply put, there would be no earthly reason to actually physically connect the two.

Now, there IS a grade difference at the north end of the canal vs the south. At the north end (near the Cox Center) it is well below grade, while at the other end (past the Land Run Monument) it is actually ABOVE the surrounding terrain. In other words, the LAND elevation between Bricktown and the south side of Lower Bricktown drops off considerably.

All of that said, I do believe the surface elevation of the lake at the MBG is SIMILAR (though not identical). It is theoretically possible that if the canal came through the railroad viaduct and connected to MBG that it could actually terminate inside the lake, though it might be visually (a pool within a pool). This was being explored at one point, and I hope that at some point it is considered again. I think connecting the canal to MBG would help the canal, Bricktown, AND the Myriad Gardens, and would create a pretty special "super sidewalk" connecting the CBD to Bricktown.

I did more Photoshop to the previous photo by taking a section of the Back Bay neighborhood in Boston and putting it over the Cox. This was a lot harder than I expected, lol. But I'm okay with how it turned out:
http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/general-real-estate-topics/8298d1403597616-mystery-tower-speculation-news-ideas-post-here-okc-skyline-photoshop-3.jpg

mystery tower ideas, anyone?

Would be better if it had a few towers.... But it's cool

Has there been any speculation as to something buying the property south of the proposed Stage Center tower for another tower development? It's about the same size and then there is a plot of land directly west of that which would be redeveloped as well. There are only three buildings on that whole 3/4 block.

Has there been any speculation as to something buying the property south of the proposed Stage Center tower for another tower development? It's about the same size and then there is a plot of land directly west of that which would be redeveloped as well. There are only three buildings on that whole 3/4 block.

I think that is probably the most prime piece of land downtown, due to the parkside location. Maybe Continental will end up there in a few years.

I'm thinking the Cox block needs something like the Sony Center in Berlin surrounded by some high-rise residential. 4 stories would be a total waste of that space. Nothing less than 10 stories on that block unless it were a unique attraction like the Sony Center, would be acceptable, as far as I'm concerned.

it doesn't need to be 50, but 10 to 30 should be standard on that block.

I'm thinking the Cox block needs something like the Sony Center in Berlin surrounded by some high-rise residential. 4 stories would be a total waste of that space. Nothing less than 10 stories on that block unless it were a unique attraction like the Sony Center, would be acceptable, as far as I'm concerned.

it doesn't need to be 50, but 10 to 30 should be standard on that block.

Multi-use. Open-air shopping/retail/restaurants all on the ground floor, parking below, 2-3 stories of commercial/offices, 5 stories of residential or hotels above. Multiple structures, but internally pedestrian-only.

KanyeMo, Your Photoshop work shows how important infill is versus building something taller than Devon. Your photos show a truly big city skyline. I must admit, even as a loyal Myriad lover, I really like your Back Bay concept, too.

Multi-use. Open-air shopping/retail/restaurants all on the ground floor, parking below, 2-3 stories of commercial/offices, 5 stories of residential or hotels above. Multiple structures, but internally pedestrian-only.

Sony Center:

http://doncrossland.com/90days/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/11-04-29.jpg
http://www.die-neue-sammlung.de/press/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/sony-center-berlin.jpg
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5295/5539247589_e16a34fee4_z.jpg
http://architecturestyle.net/sites/default/files/01_86.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Sony_Center_Berlin1.jpg

I'm thinking the Cox block needs something like the Sony Center in Berlin surrounded by some high-rise residential. 4 stories would be a total waste of that space. Nothing less than 10 stories on that block unless it were a unique attraction like the Sony Center, would be acceptable, as far as I'm concerned.

it doesn't need to be 50, but 10 to 30 should be standard on that block.

I like this idea. Plus, isn't there a 10 story minimum on new buildings in the CBD?

The least important aspect, to me, is the ceiling…No reason we couldn't do *something* to make it stand out without it being a wind hazard…The main thing is that you have a very tight-knit public space in the center of all the activity, shielded but not invisible from the street. There are restaurants, a movie theater, shopping. It's like a small little outdoor mall, but it has such a great sense of place and it's very programmable. It has such a great balance of being part of the larger area (Potsdamer Platz – there are tons of super nice hotels and businesses in this area which help feed the activity) while creating it's own little identity (Sony Center)

You also can't see it, but this is right off a major U/S-Bahn stop (Potsdamer Platz) and means that it's easily accessible to the entire city. This would be sitting right across from the transit hub and would give a lot of people a reason to walk West from the hub rather than East toward Bricktown. It would be the most complete mixed-use PLACE in OKC, and I don't think you can argue that on the Cox site would be the absolute best site for such a development.

God I love Germany…Oh how I vermisse Deutschland.

I like this idea. Plus, isn't there a 10 story minimum on new buildings in the CBD?

Don't believe so…there's a lot of stuff under 10 stories in the CBD.

It all sounds great. But this is exactly what Bricktown should have been. Lots of density, right up to the canal, etc... But it isn't even close. I'm not trying to be the wet blanket here but the City is going to have to have different rules in place or different people in charge if we are to expect different results. Different results that I really do hope OKC gets.

What will kill this possibility is insistence on having 1,500 parking spaces on this mega block. That's why I think I would prefer the cox center to stay afloat until 2025. By then the city should have enough of an urban taste in its mouth from Deep Deuce and Midtown along with a better idea of the future importance of Santa Fe station that an idea like this is finally approachable and is viewed as perfectly viable without needing all the parking spaces.

And it doesn't even have to be exactly like this…in fact, I think if there were a straight-line view from the front of Santa Fe station toward the Crystal bridge that pierced through a central-block public space that would be ideal. This is the most important block in the entirety of OKC, and will be for the rest of the city's history. The right development on this block alone could turn OKC into a Tier-II city.

If we put another arena there, I'm done with OKC.

It all sounds great. But this is exactly what Bricktown should have been. Lots of density, right up to the canal, etc... But it isn't even close. I'm not trying to be the wet blanket here but the City is going to have to have different rules in place or different people in charge if we are to expect different results. Different results that I really do hope OKC gets.

Amen, Sid.

Don't believe so…there's a lot of stuff under 10 stories in the CBD.

I said new buildings.

Multi-use. Open-air shopping/retail/restaurants all on the ground floor, parking below, 2-3 stories of commercial/offices, 5 stories of residential or hotels above. Multiple structures, but internally pedestrian-only.

My wife and kids just took a tour of Palm Beach Atlantic University and they all loved how walkable the area was (I have only been trying to tell them that for 3 years). In addition to the downtown university campus and downtown buildings, they also have an area like you just described called City Place. My son is ready to move right now - and he still has 3 years of high school left.

CityPlace :: 700 S. Rosemary Avenue, West Palm Beach, FL. 33401 :: 561.366.1000 (http://www.cityplace.com/)

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/volcker/city_place.gif

My wife and kids just took a tour of Palm Beach Atlantic University and they all loved how walkable the area was (I have only been trying to tell them that for 3 years). In addition to the downtown university campus and downtown buildings, they also have an area like you just described called City Place. My son is ready to move right now - and he still has 3 years of high school left.

CityPlace :: 700 S. Rosemary Avenue, West Palm Beach, FL. 33401 :: 561.366.1000 (http://www.cityplace.com/)

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/volcker/city_place.gif

It would bring density, residents, entertainment, shopping, etc. Lots of potential users for the new park, more restaurants and diversions immediately adjacent to the arena, etc.

Time to post this again...courtesy of one of the OU School of Architecture's 5th year studio classes in 2011.

8335

It all sounds great. But this is exactly what Bricktown should have been. Lots of density, right up to the canal, etc... But it isn't even close. I'm not trying to be the wet blanket here but the City is going to have to have different rules in place or different people in charge if we are to expect different results. Different results that I really do hope OKC gets.

I agree. That is what Lower Bricktown should have/could have been.

For the CCC block, I like the idea of City Creek in Salt Lake City. That is also a dense, mixed use, transit oriented development (office, residential, retail). The attention to detail of that place is simple amazing. If the canal is extended west and a similar development is chosen for the site, it would be a home run.

I agree. That is what Lower Bricktown should have/could have been.

True. And probably getting something better somewhere else will be the only way Lower Bricktown will ever get fixed. It needs some worthy competition or I think it will wallow in mediocrity for a long time.

I would love to see the CCC superblock street grid restored with a large roundabout in the center and a skinny 25-30 story tower in the middle with ground floor retail on all four quadrants, office space on the NW, housing on the SW, parking garages on the NE and SE with housing and office above each. All four structures on the quadrants being no shorter than five stories. It would make for a cool focal point.

Time to post this again...courtesy of one of the OU School of Architecture's 5th year studio classes in 2011.

8335

I like this idea of extending California and Broadway through the CC site. Developing it in pieces with different developers/builders for each quadrant would be preferable with a master plan of uses with a majority residential as well as office, hotel and retail.

I've heard that BOK is looking to up their presence in OKC and move their existing employees along with the new ones into a new tower.

From what I got, BOK is thinking about moving lots of folks from around the city and downtown up on Broadway Ext, Wilshire-ish to Britton-ish, and they are looking to move further south in downtown, probably waiting until the park is closer to reality. Not sure if they're part of the mystery tower or not from that info (unless it's like the Dark Tower on Britton/Broadway).

From what I got, BOK is thinking about moving lots of folks from around the city and downtown up on Broadway Ext, Wilshire-ish to Britton-ish, and they are looking to move further south in downtown, probably waiting until the park is closer to reality. Not sure if they're part of the mystery tower or not from that info (unless it's like the Dark Tower on Britton/Broadway).

I had heard rumors of a high rise that's going to be built up off Wilshire near Broadway Extension. The dark tower off Broadway is the former OPUBCO Building. American Fidelity is making that their new corporate headquarters and moving from their current location at 2000 Classen.

I had heard rumors of a high rise that's going to be built up off Wilshire near Broadway Extension. The dark tower off Broadway is the former OPUBCO Building. American Fidelity is making that their new corporate headquarters and moving from their current location at 2000 Classen.

You're hearing about AEP.

You're hearing about AEP.

Hmmm. A big construction project already? Will McClendon ever learn from his mistakes?

Hmmm. A big construction project already? Will McClendon ever learn from his mistakes?

Well he's already laying the foundation for a company that's virtually impossible to oust him from, so I would say that he definitely has in some respects.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hmmm. A big construction project already? Will McClendon ever learn from his mistakes?

I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

His new office HQ will be very different with different people involved in designing it.

And, he already owns plenty of land so he doesn't have to run around paying millions for hundreds of little lots.

His downfall with CHK campus building was being too generous buying out neighbors for 3-4 times their actual value.

His downfall with CHK campus building was being too generous buying out neighbors for 3-4 times their actual value.

Yep, knowing where AEP's (or Arcadia Farms' to be more accurate) new location is, I would imagine Aubrey picked it up pretty cheap.

The irony is many of the neighbors still complained vociferously.

Aubrey bought 75 acres at Wilshire and Broadway for $5.1 million.

With Chesapeake's money, he paid $3 million for a Shell station on .3 acres and $1.5 million each for two .1 acre parcels that are still vacant.

Aubrey bought 75 acres at Wilshire and Broadway for $5.1 million.

With Chesapeake's money, he paid $3 million for a Shell station on .3 acres and $1.5 million each for two .1 acre parcels that are still vacant.

Yep, definitely a big difference.

It all sounds great. But this is exactly what Bricktown should have been. Lots of density, right up to the canal, etc... But it isn't even close. I'm not trying to be the wet blanket here but the City is going to have to have different rules in place or different people in charge if we are to expect different results. Different results that I really do hope OKC gets.

Gotta move traffic. Gotta bend to the developers.

Aubrey bought 75 acres at Wilshire and Broadway for $5.1 million.

With Chesapeake's money, he paid $3 million for a Shell station on .3 acres and $1.5 million each for two .1 acre parcels that are still vacant.

If we think the CHK campus was sprawling I can't imagine what he will do with 75 acres that he paid virtually nothing for in comparison. I feel like the development version of Iron Eyes Cody who cries because of all the litter.

http://www.eddecker.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/iron-eyes-cody-1.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7zBX8gYxHUY/UyIySeqZIpI/AAAAAAAAK4c/C6oVpnGwS1o/s1600/ChiefIronEyesCodyCrying.gif

Looks like this has gone dormant again.

Yes a grinding halt. Where's the news? We want our towers and we want them now! We live in a world of instant gratification don't we?

Steve is mysteriously quiet (was there even a live chat on Friday?, if so I missed it and couldn't find transcripts).

I think something BIG is about to burst! And I hope/pray it is a revised Stage Centre tower proposal of at least 30 floors (mixed use office on bottom hotel on top) AND the Preftakes block redevelopment proposal which includes a 45+ floor tower and garage(s) with retail on first floors.

Yes, I am likely dreaming but as I mentioned, Steve is remarkably quiet/absent as is this thread. ...

Okay, I'll go out on a limb here, I'm on vacation from Aug 21 thru Sept 1......

That's when the announcement will happen.....smh