This might be the story but someone with archive access would have to look.

http://newsok.com/cost-of-oklahoma-city-growth-could-surpass-city-revenues-by-2016/article/3564528

Kerry, you're whistling in the wind here. Your cowpath theory will never force people to live where they don't want to live. There may be and should be many other reasons why the population may decide to live more centrally but that is not one of them.

I don't want to force anyone to live anywhere. If people want to live 5 miles past Memorial Road in the country then more power to them. They just shouldn't expect City services out there. If they want rapid police response, adequate fire protection, non-well water, a sewer system, paved roads, and street lights then they should move to town.

I don't want to force anyone to live anywhere. If people want to live 5 miles past Memorial Road in the country then more power to them. They just shouldn't expect City services out there. If they want rapid police response, adequate fire protection, non-well water, a sewer system, paved roads, and street lights then they should move to town.

And do they get a pass on paying taxes too? You're absolutely wasting your time with that logic, Kerry. It's just not going to happen. We've had this discussion many times about suburbs, city limits, and annexation. What you prefer will not change anything in development patterns. It will happen in incorporated areas whether it's in OKC or Edmond or Piedmont and those services will be provided by someone and if it's not OKC someone else will be receiving tax benefits. Is it an ideal situation? No, but it's going to happen anyway.

I don't want to force anyone to live anywhere. If people want to live 5 miles past Memorial Road in the country then more power to them. They just shouldn't expect City services out there. If they want rapid police response, adequate fire protection, non-well water, a sewer system, paved roads, and street lights then they should move to town.

Okay...But you shouldn't expect their tax dollars to fund all the cool new stuff downtown.

Okay...But you shouldn't expect their tax dollars to fund all the cool new stuff downtown.

They don't - that is the whole point. The taxes collected on the suburban fringe don't even cover the expenses of the suburban fringe so there isn't "left over" tax dollars to funnel downtown (except for MAPS which is dedicated sales tax). That is why downtown has TIF districts - to keep tax dollars generated there from moving out of there like they did for 60 years.

The irony is that suburbia is made up of my fellow conservative who have no trouble complaining about welfare recipients, but have no problem being subsidized when it comes to where they live.

It would be very interesting to see a delta map that showed the difference between revenue collection and spending.

I don't want to force anyone to live anywhere. If people want to live 5 miles past Memorial Road in the country then more power to them. They just shouldn't expect City services out there. If they want rapid police response, adequate fire protection, non-well water, a sewer system, paved roads, and street lights then they should move to town.

This.

The irony is that suburbia is made up of my fellow conservative who have no trouble complaining about welfare recipients, but have no problem being subsidized when it comes to where they live.



So a homeowner in an area where $2-$4K in annual property taxes isn't at all unusual, who pays the nearly 9% city sales tax on every transaction in the city - including MAPS - and dutifully pays city utility bills every month, is fiscally the same as a welfare recipient? Really?

Wow. Just wow.

This thread should be renamed "Talk About Anything Other Than Kilpatrick Turnpike Widening"

So a homeowner in an area where $2-$4K in annual property taxes isn't at all unusual, who pays the nearly 9% city sales tax on every transaction in the city - including MAPS - and dutifully pays city utility bills every month, is fiscally the same as a welfare recipient? Really?

Wow. Just wow.

When it cost the city more to provide service to you than you pay in taxes/fees what do you call it? Perhaps you would like to pay a tax rate that reflects the actual expenditures necessary to sustain suburbia.

They don't - that is the whole point. The taxes collected on the suburban fringe don't even cover the expenses of the suburban fringe so there isn't "left over" tax dollars to funnel downtown (except for MAPS which is dedicated sales tax). That is why downtown has TIF districts - to keep tax dollars generated there from moving out of there like they did for 60 years.

The irony is that suburbia is made up of my fellow conservative who have no trouble complaining about welfare recipients, but have no problem being subsidized when it comes to where they live.

It would be very interesting to see a delta map that showed the difference between revenue collection and spending.

Oh no, something that Just the Facts and I agree on. LOL

Oh no, something that Just the Facts and I agree on. LOL

Surely this is one of the signs of the apacolypse.

They don't - that is the whole point. The taxes collected on the suburban fringe don't even cover the expenses of the suburban fringe so there isn't "left over" tax dollars to funnel downtown (except for MAPS which is dedicated sales tax). That is why downtown has TIF districts - to keep tax dollars generated there from moving out of there like they did for 60 years.

The irony is that suburbia is made up of my fellow conservative who have no trouble complaining about welfare recipients, but have no problem being subsidized when it comes to where they live.

It would be very interesting to see a delta map that showed the difference between revenue collection and spending.

Kilpatrick


So a homeowner in an area where $2-$4K in annual property taxes isn't at all unusual, who pays the nearly 9% city sales tax on every transaction in the city - including MAPS - and dutifully pays city utility bills every month, is fiscally the same as a welfare recipient? Really?

Wow. Just wow.

Turnpike


When it cost the city more to provide service to you than you pay in taxes/fees what do you call it? Perhaps you would like to pay a tax rate that reflects the actual expenditures necessary to sustain suburbia.

To


And do they get a pass on paying taxes too? You're absolutely wasting your time with that logic, Kerry. It's just not going to happen. We've had this discussion many times about suburbs, city limits, and annexation. What you prefer will not change anything in development patterns. It will happen in incorporated areas whether it's in OKC or Edmond or Piedmont and those services will be provided by someone and if it's not OKC someone else will be receiving tax benefits. Is it an ideal situation? No, but it's going to happen anyway.

Be


The City calculated that they fall $18 million short every year. The strategy of expanding infrastructure to spur development at the fringes is clearly not working. Growth should be focused where existing infrastructure already exists and is underutilized instead of building new infrastructure every few years.

Widened

What does the above have to do with the direct involvement of the reason this thread was started? Next post should be a picture after they've started construction. Too bad they spent all that money putting up the cable barricade system. How much did that cost the OTA?

It didn't cost OTA anything - the people driving on the Kilpatrick paid for it.

Surely this is one of the signs of the apacolypse.

Thought about running for the hills, but decide to stick around and see what happens.

Too bad they spent all that money putting up the cable barricade system. How much did that cost the OTA?
The last that I recall the Brifen system ran about $150,000-200,000 a mile for complete engineering and installation, that was many years ago before they became more common. For comparison the last time that I heard a price concrete Jersey Barriers run roughly $1,000,000 a mile. I remember when there seemed to be a crossover fatality every few months on LHP. The Briffen system had been used in Europe for many years and the installation on LHP (up near Memorial) was the first test in the US of a cable barrier system which was paid for by the Briffen USA distributor (http://www.brifenusa.com/) (now based in OKC). It was very successful and led to the adoption of the cable barrier system where cost per mile is an issue since it can do 5 miles for the price of 2 mile of Jersey barrier.

I have heard many gripes about cable barriers, mainly from motorcycle riders and the "cheese slicer" imagery that they have in their mind. All I know is that just north of NW 63rd the barrier caught a crossing Suburban and that kept them from coming into my lane, I was in an RX-7...I think we know what the likely outcome of that would have been. I also had a car come over a Jersey Barrier in Austin (on Mopac just south of 183) on a Saturday afternoon. If I would have been in my F-150 I would have hit them, since I was on the motorcycle I had more room for avoidance maneuvers and missed them after they landed in the two inside lanes by about 6 feet. I have had more close calls when it comes to crossover accidents coming my way than I ever have being forced into the median, it 44 years of driving/riding I can't think of when I have been pushed that far into a barrier.

Since many people seem to lack the ability to control their vehicles things like this need to be around to protect us from the idiots out there.

It didn't cost OTA anything - the people driving on the Kilpatrick paid for it.

Kerry, read my lips. The turnpike is going to be widened. You will never have to drive on it. It doesn't connect any parts of Jacksonville and won't affect your taxes in the least. I live in OKC and have no worries about affects on my taxes. This is needed and will be done.

My complaint wasn't about the cost or saving of lives due to the cable barrier. What I was trying to say is that its too bad they put it in only because they'll remove it to widen the turnpike. Concrete barriers are the future for this stretch and that's fine too!

The last that I recall the Brifen system ran about $150,000-200,000 a mile for complete engineering and installation, that was many years ago before they became more common. For comparison the last time that I heard a price concrete Jersey Barriers run roughly $1,000,000 a mile. I remember when there seemed to be a crossover fatality every few months on LHP. The Briffen system had been used in Europe for many years and the installation on LHP (up near Memorial) was the first test in the US of a cable barrier system which was paid for by the Briffen USA distributor (http://www.brifenusa.com/) (now based in OKC). It was very successful and led to the adoption of the cable barrier system where cost per mile is an issue since it can do 5 miles for the price of 2 mile of Jersey barrier.

I have heard many gripes about cable barriers, mainly from motorcycle riders and the "cheese slicer" imagery that they have in their mind. All I know is that just north of NW 63rd the barrier caught a crossing Suburban and that kept them from coming into my lane, I was in an RX-7...I think we know what the likely outcome of that would have been. I also had a car come over a Jersey Barrier in Austin (on Mopac just south of 183) on a Saturday afternoon. If I would have been in my F-150 I would have hit them, since I was on the motorcycle I had more room for avoidance maneuvers and missed them after they landed in the two inside lanes by about 6 feet. I have had more close calls when it comes to crossover accidents coming my way than I ever have being forced into the median, it 44 years of driving/riding I can't think of when I have been pushed that far into a barrier.

Since many people seem to lack the ability to control their vehicles things like this need to be around to protect us from the idiots out there.

It was just put in on the turnpike in the section to be widened like this last summer, only to be taken out some time around next summer. Maybe the components can be recycled but seems like a total waste to add it when they already were making announcements that it was due to be widened soon.

It was just put in on the turnpike in the section to be widened like this last summer, only to be taken out some time around next summer. Maybe the components can be recycled but seems like a total waste to add it when they already were making announcements that it was due to be widened soon.

Thank you Snowman! +5

It was just put in on the turnpike in the section to be widened like this last summer, only to be taken out some time around next summer. Maybe the components can be recycled but seems like a total waste to add it when they already were making announcements that it was due to be widened soon.
Well, I know sometimes I get a little wound up when people think they are a waste. Many of the components can be reused, I guess that maybe the widening got moved up in schedule. Not sure but sometimes that happens, I've seen it with repaving jobs down here in Texas and read something like that happening in Colorado. Some of that in recent years may be coming from some of the "shovel ready" jobs funded by the feds for safety initiatives or such and the states go ahead with it since it is being funded from other sources.

werent they suppose to start this already?

I noticed just today they have signs up that construction will start May 1st. They have cleared the land at Western Ave. and Memorial Road (SW corner) for what I assume will be the construction staging area. Hope it doesn't mess up the flow of traffic too much, I may have to find a new way to work.

Looks like this project is getting started. There are portable barriers on eastbound now and I imagine portable barriers will go up on westbound pretty soon also. The pavement markings were repainted to take up the breakdown lane.

This project will be done in no time at all since funding is secured and its through the turnpike authority. Lol

Looks like this project is getting started. There are portable barriers on eastbound now and I imagine portable barriers will go up on westbound pretty soon also. The pavement markings were repainted to take up the breakdown lane.

This project will be done in no time at all since funding is secured and its through the turnpike authority. Lol

I just went through at 8:15 tonight, and there were several crews still working. I believe I read where they would be done in a year, which is pretty fast.

I just went through at 8:15 tonight, and there were several crews still working. I believe I read where they would be done in a year, which is pretty fast.

You know it took them 2-3 years to build the outer loop expansion and thats about 4 times as long as the I-40 crosstown.

I drove it this past weekend. The new lines are kinda hard to see so be very careful. The new speed limit is 55 and a lot of cars were still doing 70. Just cause it was the weekend and no workers were present doesn't mean do the regular speed limit. I won't be surprised if quite a few tickets are issued within this stretch (got confirmation on the signs from a friend who's a police officer).

You know it took them 2-3 years to build the outer loop expansion and thats about 4 times as long as the I-40 crosstown.

Are you talking about the new crosstown that broke ground in 2005?

Are you talking about the new crosstown that broke ground in 2005?

Yes

Sorry, that was poorly worded. The outer loop is about 4 times as long as the new crosstown and was still done a lot faster.

Yes

Sorry, that was poorly worded. The outer loop is about 4 times as long as the new crosstown and was still done a lot faster.


I"m not defending the construction schedule for I40 but building a new urban freeway and building a surburban toll road in undeveloped land is comparing apples to oranges.

Yes

Sorry, that was poorly worded. The outer loop is about 4 times as long as the new crosstown and was still done a lot faster.

Ok, I see where you were going now. The turnpikes are pretty much a good indication of how long road constructions if similar would take here if the state budget per year was not a limiting factor in speed of major construction projects.

Widening from four to six lanes will be great but then having traffic compress from six lanes to four will be guaranteed to cause traffic backups and more accidents.

Widening from four to six lanes will be great but then having traffic compress from six lanes to four will be guaranteed to cause traffic backups and more accidents.

When they gave an early report on where they thought it needed widening I had expected lanes would start from the i35 & Lake Hefner entry flyovers and peel off as the exit flyovers (this was before they decided on the actual places it would be widened), granted this would require the inner lanes to shift near the junctures if they wanted to set it up to eventually continue as six lanes beyond the current expansion zone but could also reduce the number of near misses from people realizing the Portland exit is not the Hefner exit.

The fact that they will widen the Kilpatrick Turnpike, but delay phases of the construction on the I-44/I-235 junction just simply defies logic..

The fact that they will widen the Kilpatrick Turnpike, but delay phases of the construction on the I-44/I-235 junction just simply defies logic..

funding from 100% different sources and different bodies ...

the OTA (turnpike authority) has ongoing funding source (tolls) and maintains and runs the entire statewide system ... they can issue debt(borrow money) to fund expansion and thus can do projects whenever they wish(as long as their debt stays in control)

the state can NOT borrow money for highway projects ... they must budget money yearly and rely on federal money (also yearly) to fund highway projects

Would anyone be in favor of potentially tolling certain portions of our interstates here in Oklahoma to speed the process of reconstructing them so we can accomplish silly goals like finishing the I-235/I-44 interchange sometime before 2020 or redoing the cloverleaf clusterf**k that is the I-35/I-240 interchange?

No. But I am sure if you want to make a contribution to speed things along, they probably wouldn't turn you down.

Was having a discussion with a customer (also in the infrastructure construction biz) last week at lunch, and we both joked as to why this project is happening, since it's never crowded, at all. we figured maybe future expected continued growth along Memorial from Meridian on out west.

I hadn't heard of them running out of money for the I-44/235 interchange. That is a very large undertaking that is going to take some time. You probably don't even notice but they're relocating several thousand feet of large diameter sewerlines on the south side of 44.

Was having a discussion with a customer (also in the infrastructure construction biz) last week at lunch, and we both joked as to why this project is happening, since it's never crowded, at all. we figured maybe future expected continued growth along Memorial from Meridian on out west.

I hadn't heard of them running out of money for the I-44/235 interchange. That is a very large undertaking that is going to take some time. You probably don't even notice but they're relocating several thousand feet of large diameter sewerlines on the south side of 44.

No, they can't run "out of money" because its pay as you go with a yearly budget that varies depending on economic conditions. Its like building a new house and buying materials to build a foundation than waiting 2 years to build a wall than 3 years to build a roof and so forth. Your also spreading your money out to other houses that are in varies stage of disrepair.

Financial undertaking- yes, engineering undertaking- not so much.

There was a series of articles in the Austin paper a few years ago about TxDOT, the toll roads and what needed to be done for the Texas highway system. One of the TxDOT people in there basically stated that the problems that affect the Texas system pretty much affect all the states, the "cheap and easy" roads have for the most part already been built, the "expensive and difficult" ones are the roads that really need to be redone now and the bill has come due.

There was a series of articles in the Austin paper a few years ago about TxDOT, the toll roads and what needed to be done for the Texas highway system. One of the TxDOT people in there basically stated that the problems that affect the Texas system pretty much affect all the states, the "cheap and easy" roads have for the most part already been built, the "expensive and difficult" ones are the roads that really need to be redone now and the bill has come due.

Any chance you could dig up this article? I'd be very interested in reading that.

Any chance you could dig up this article? I'd be very interested in reading that.
I just remember reading it a few years ago in the paper, the actual paper since we subscribed when we lived in Austin. I don't know how far back you can access stories on Statesman.com (http://www.statesman.com/)

Perhaps the next project on the Turnpike could be adding a real interchange to Kilpatrick and the Lake Hefner Parkway, so you don't have to exit the highway to go in every direction except the LHP north to Kilpatrick east and vice versa.

Perhaps the next project on the Turnpike could be adding a real interchange to Kilpatrick and the Lake Hefner Parkway, so you don't have to exit the highway to go in every direction except the LHP north to Kilpatrick east and vice versa.

That would be nice. They already have flyovers going from Hefner Pkwy N to Kilpatrick Tpk E and from Kilpatrick Tpk W to Hefner Pkwy S.

They also need a eastbound Turnpike entrance loop for people coming from Edmond on Broadway Extension. When going southbound, there is only a West Turnpike entrance. a little frustrating.

I don't think it has been addressed but I noticed they ripped out the cable barriers already near the eastern and kelley. Are they going to re-use them?

The most interesting part of this project is how they will make bridges over Broadway Extension, the railroad tracks, Western, Penn, Hefner Parkway, Meridian and over Spring Creek. Do you think they'll just widen the bridges like they did with Broadway Extension over Memorial Road or do you think they'll make them each one wide bridge with the barrier wall down the center?

I'm guessing that it is just during night time hours but Western Avenue under the Kilpatrick should be avoided.

First, if traveling eastbound on the JKT, if you exit at Western to go northbound, you have to go another half mile to the east and pull a u-turn at that overpass to go back westbound toward Western to travel north. The eastbound on ramp from Western to the JKT is closed and so is the westbound ramp off of Memorial Road. Also, all southbound traffic on Western south of Memorial Road is blocked as well.

After looking around for some estimates on when this was to be completed I am beginning to wonder if the reason this is happening now is OTA wanted to widen the Creek Turnpike in Tulsa and needed a project of similar scope in OKC to make it politically feasible to get that done.

After looking around for some estimates on when this was to be completed I am beginning to wonder if the reason this is happening now is OTA wanted to widen the Creek Turnpike in Tulsa and needed a project of similar scope in OKC to make it politically feasible to get that done.

More likely the other way around. Check out the traffic counts (https://www.pikepass.com/media/AverageDailyTraffic.aspx)

More equal than I expected, both sections are 26,000 to 27,000. It just seems unusually proactive of them to not wait till something should have been done ten to twenty years earlier.

More equal than I expected, both sections are 26,000 to 27,000. It just seems unusually proactive of them to not wait till something should have been done ten to twenty years earlier.
The difference is ODOT vs. OTA, ODOT waits until it has been needed for a long time, OTA uses it to generate more revenue for themselves.

I have a question regarding the interchange where the turnpike's WB ramp leads onto the SB Lake Hefner Parkway, are they going to have to redo this bridge? It is low enough that if a truck is in the left lane, they're going to smash into the pier, but it doesn't look like they're adding any new piers at all. My other question is then, why don't they move this ramp further west so that they can add a NB Lake Hefner Parkway ramp that takes you straight to the WB turnpike. Does that make sense?

1.That ramp pier is dead center in the medium so there should be enough clearance or their planning on slightly shifting westbound north.
2. When the time comes to build a WB ramp, they will branch off from EB ramp and go up and over the SB to Lake Hefner Parkway ramp. I actually wouldn't be surprised to see westbound on and off ramps built in the near future.

I drove up Portland recently (last last weekend) and they're putting in new piers in the middle of every overpass on the Kilpatrick. I just don't think they've gotten to that part of the project yet.

I drove up Portland recently (last last weekend) and they're putting in new piers in the middle of every overpass on the Kilpatrick. I just don't think they've gotten to that part of the project yet.

Yeah, they have the footings poured. They just haven't built up yet. I think he was wondering if they were going to relocate the off ramp. Of course, they obviously knew they were going to widen the road eventually when they built that ramp and pier originally.

Yeah, they have the footings poured. They just haven't built up yet. I think he was wondering if they were going to relocate the off ramp. Of course, they obviously knew they were going to widen the road eventually when they built that ramp and pier originally.

In the city council OTA stated that there had been a mistake made on one of the flyovers and the clearance was lower than it should have been, which was going to be corrected (I don't remember how). It had originally been planed so it could be widened.

In the city council OTA stated that there had been a mistake made on one of the flyovers and the clearance was lower than it should have been, which was going to be corrected (I don't remember how). It had originally been planed so it could be widened.

This is what I remembered. Something was said at some point (I know, yay for details!) about there being a mistake and the clearance wasn't going to allow for traffic underneath. But it does appear that this will be rectified, I just didn't know what it meant for the flyover or if they're going to branch off the other ramp as part of this project.

When all this is finished, will the Kilpatrick Turnpike be sold or given to private owners.

When all this is finished, will the Kilpatrick Turnpike be sold or given to private owners.

No, where did you get that idea?

When all this is finished, will the Kilpatrick Turnpike be sold or given to private owners.

nope it will still be owned by the OTA