I don't chime in much, but I need to put my two cents in about Dallas/Ft.Worth. You can have it. I dread every time I have to go to Dallas or Fort Worth, and its quite often. To me Ft. Worth's traffic is worse than Dallas. Try going in or out of this place on I-35 from downtown to the racetrack any time or any day. It's my most dreaded destination. There is nothing aesthetically pleasing about either place except for a few of their skyscrapers. I don't get it how anyone would ever want OKC to be like Dallas. If you like big cities and want to live in Texas then in my opinion Houston is the place. More cosmopolitan, more pedestrian friendly, closer to water, easier traffic and the Houston skyline at night is one of the most fabulous in the world. Any metro with a million plus population is going to offer enough as far as restaurants, shopping and things to do unless you prefer that big time cosmopolitan lifestyle. Sure, OKC might not have that exciting night life for 20 somethings, but like myself, I think a lot of us after we get older and start a family we find more security and comfort coming back to the old nest. Yeah, we might not be 'diversified' as the east or west coast cities, or even Austin, but I know no matter where I go or where I've been, its always great to be back home, here.

You're saying people are saying that, but I'm not sure that they are. Did you notice when you asked why people didn't like Dallas most people had answers that did not fit the response you were looking for. When you approach every issues with an ideological agenda, you quit having conversations with people and start patronizing them.

You have a lot of great points, Just the Facts, but you try to insert your agenda into every discussion and it turns people off.

When people say they don't want OKC to be like Dallas and I ask why and the response is "because they are in Texas" how are you supposed to have a conversation with that? OKC will NEVER be in Texas.

One thing I see consistently (and not just on OKCTalk) is how people don't make the connection between what they like, and how what they like comes into being. For instance, I spent the last several day at the downtown Atlanta campus headquarters of a certain beverage company. A friend of mine also works there and I asked him how he likes working in downtown vs. our old suburban location in north Atlanta. He said he loves it because the office is close to everything so he can walk to place for lunch or after work vs the suburban location where you had to drive everywhere. So yesterday I tested that theory by walking to The Varsity.

In reality it was practically un-walkable and very dangerous. First, it is all but impossible to leave the "campus" on foot. You have to walk down the exit ramp of the parking lot with no sidewalk. The actual speed limit (not the posted limited) on North Ave is way too fast. The lights take forever to change and you don't dare try to cross against a red light because of the car speeds, there is absolutely nothing of interest to look at along the route, and it is separated from downtown by 14 lanes of freeway with limited crossings.

The moral is, people love New Urbanism even if they don't know it, but they constantly support development that makes it impossible to flourish. All I am trying to do is point that out. We have people on here having orgasms over the new I-40 when in the long run it is going to make the problem it temporarily solved worse (except for the crumbling part).

Alright. Well, I agree with you in principle so good luck convincing people. THere's a lot of work to be done.

If you like big cities and want to live in Texas then in my opinion Houston is the place. More cosmopolitan, more pedestrian friendly, closer to water, easier traffic and the Houston skyline at night is one of the most fabulous in the world.

This. If OKC is going to emulate a Texas city to any extent, I would hope it to be Houston, not Austin or Dallas or Ft. Worth. There's no denying Austin's success in attracting the creative class, but Austin lags OKC in civic amenities/infrastructure and the laid-back "hippy" mindset gets old after living there a while. I don't think there's much worth emulating in Dallas, which is the most suburban-oriented and vapid big city in Texas.

Despite its reputation for sprawl, Houston has a vibrant and healthy core (the west inner loop area, generally speaking), a beautiful and impressive downtown area, and superior cultural offerings to DFW. There are many similarities between Houston and OKC and lots of things that OKC could learn from Houston and improve upon.

Alright. Well, I agree with you in principle so good luck convincing people. THere's a lot of work to be done.

I know it is a hard road as I personally spent years being an obsticle myself. I really appreciate some of the insight you have provided into downtown Wichita. It is more proof that you don't have to be big to be urban.

To the issue of why some OKCitians like Dallas, it is because of the variety of shopping, eating and living experiences we don't have here in OKC - YET. There are some beautiful areas with many home styles, lots of dynamic social life, a good variety of artistic venues, great athletic venues, all the major pro sports teams, world class shopping, major banking facilities, a synergy of a great number of corporate headquarters of fast growing and progressive companies, a fairly extensive light rail system, a major airport hub and lots of international flights with direct flights to virtually every major city in the US as well as a good second commercial airport close in with cheap air fares, several world class golf courses, any number of urban enclaves, a plethora of advanced food store concepts, a wider variety of radio station formats, etc. Other than that, I can't think of a single reason.

Of course, there are many reasons why Dallas would be WAY down on my list of choices to live in. Chiefly, traffic and the phoniness of a great deal of their social activity.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This pretty much sums up why Dallas is the city that it is! As many of you know, I reside in Dallas and like the city. It has much to offer including all the above mentioned activities. I do admit that Dallas has a horrendous traffic problem and that is why there are so many aggressive drivers down here. The smog in the summer can be rather bad as you see a orange haze over the horizon of the skyline. Not good. Wait times in restaurants average 45 minutes to hour on weekends. People can be rude and pretentious. Dallas has plenty of $30,000.00 year millionares lol that live beyond their means just to keep up appearances. Beautiful neighborhoods such as Highland Park, University Park, Preston Hollow, Swiss Avenue. My first choice of cities to reside in would be San Diego, Fort Lauderdale, Nashville or Atlanta!

Re: Houston - It has a lot of nice things about it and is a magnificent city, but speaking for myself, I hate the climate. It feels like a sauna. I would never live that close to the Guf. I also don't like the traffic. But I still love the vibe and the energy.

The area around Dallas is often compared to OKC but I am not sure it is as close as all that. It's flatter, for one thing. And the climate, even though it isn't that much further south, is still more humid than I'm interested in. And the traffic is and always has been horrible. Thirty years ago, I used to hear people say that Dallas was so big because the traffic was so bad, people couldn't fight their way out of town, gave up and just stayed.

I know a lot of people who love shopping in Dallas and many of them have been making annual trips for, literally, decades. It is a girl thing and I know quite a few people who do this. Likewise, a lot of people do the OU/Texas game. For many people, particularly people who grew up before OKC started making an effort to be more than a sleepy cowtown, there is still a sort of romance with Dallas because, back in the day, it was pretty much the only alternative for a fun weekend. And they still think of it that way. Young people, these days, don't have to sneak off to Dallas to find a little nightlife, even if OKC is not in the same category as Austin or the like. But for a lot of people who don't party anymore, the changes are pretty much lost on them - just not on their radar. When they think about doing something fun, they automatically think, "Dallas." But most don't want to actually live there.

Re: Houston - It has a lot of nice things about it and is a magnificent city, but speaking for myself, I hate the climate. It feels like a sauna. I would never live that close to the Guf. I also don't like the traffic. But I still love the vibe and the energy.

That is the problem with Houston and its climate, close enough to get the sticky humidity but far enough away to not get the sea breeze effect. That is why I would prefer to live in Galveston if I was located in SE Houston, if I most of my life was inside the loop than I would much prefer to be in one of the nicer, near downtown neighborhoods.....I used to hate the thought of living Houston but would choose it over DFW now. My former boss lives in in Kemah near Clear Lake on a channel, he can sail his 46 foot sailboat that is docked at his back porch, out through Clear Lake to the Gulf. I still prefer Port Aransas to Galveston though but Galveston does have some nice historical structures remaining.

Meh, there are worse places but I'm not a fan of Houston. I work in the energy sector. Did a three month college internship and go there at least twice a year for business and I'm always glad to leave. The city has a really chaotic, ratty appearance sadly. I actually can deal with the traffic and humidity, but I cannot deal with the flooding or constant threat of hurricanes. I still hear horror stories from family members and their 22 hour drive to Dallas during Rita in 2005 (they promptly left Houston after that). Way too many idiot drivers in lifted F350s or other huge pickups. Plus its well known low cost of living is a bit of a myth once you factor property taxes and electric/ac costs.

With all that said, I certainly admire the city's recognition of its issues and is very proactive in trying to solve them. I agree that Houston should be a model for OKC. Its a perfect example of how an outrageously sprawling city "densifies" itself as Houston is doing in the inner loop. In fact both cities are pretty similar. Sprawling, dependent on energy sector, but with large aerospace industries and medical complexes, ethnically diverse in comparison to its surroundings, has to compete with an instate city thats regarded as "nicer" to outsiders, etc.

They can certainly keep the traffic though.

Isn't it wonderful when Just the Facts graces us with the Socratic method so we can reach his conclusion?
+1

Isn't it wonderful when Just the Facts graces us with the Socratic method so we can reach his conclusion?+1

But it is effective. Although I will readily admit that KTs direct experience with the introduction of New Urbanism in downtown Wichita has probably done far more 'convincing' than I ever will.


Alright. Well, I agree with you in principle so good luck convincing people. There's a lot of work to be done.

Fort Worth > Dallas

Agreed. I'd take Ft Worth over Dallas anyway. Sundanxe Square has developed nicely over the years.

Fort Worth suburbs more down to earth, cleaner, and safer than Dallas suburbs. Southlake, Grapevine, Keller, Westlake, Argyle, North Richland Hills all really nice communities.

That is the problem with Houston and its climate, close enough to get the sticky humidity but far enough away to not get the sea breeze effect. That is why I would prefer to live in Galveston if I was located in SE Houston, if I most of my life was inside the loop than I would much prefer to be in one of the nicer, near downtown neighborhoods.....I used to hate the thought of living Houston but would choose it over DFW now. My former boss lives in in Kemah near Clear Lake on a channel, he can sail his 46 foot sailboat that is docked at his back porch, out through Clear Lake to the Gulf. I still prefer Port Aransas to Galveston though but Galveston does have some nice historical structures remaining.

Hahaha - funny you should say that. I started to mention the lack of a sea breeze to distinguish Houston from a city closer to the water but couldn't think of the term. A city that is on the water would be much better than Houston.

Hahaha - funny you should say that. I started to mention the lack of a sea breeze to distinguish Houston from a city closer to the water but couldn't think of the term. A city that is on the water would be much better than Houston.

Except that Houston actually does benefit quite a lot from the Gulf breezes. That is why in the hottest parts of summer, Houston is significantly less hot than DFW, Austin, OKC, and Tulsa, even with the humidity factored in.

Except that Houston actually does benefit quite a lot from the Gulf breezes. That is why in the hottest parts of summer, Houston is significantly less hot than DFW, Austin, OKC, and Tulsa, even with the humidity factored in.

Well, maybe you have been there in more recent years than I have, but I was born there and visited often, growing up. I HATED the sweatiness of the place, although I loved the trees. I can't agree that OKC is more humid - not even close. Temperature wise, it might be hotter here, but it is much more comfortable.

So dang hot and humid in Houston during the 4 months of summertime, it's like you have to change underwear a couple of times daily just to stay dry.

Well, maybe you have been there in more recent years than I have, but I was born there and visited often, growing up. I HATED the sweatiness of the place, although I loved the trees. I can't agree that OKC is more humid - not even close. Temperature wise, it might be hotter here, but it is much more comfortable.

Nobody said OKC is more humid. Only that, in the hottest part of summer, OKC is hotter, including when you compare heat indexes. Of course Houston's heat lasts longer, but it does not peak as high. A normal summer has few days over 100 degrees, and very few with heat indexes above 110. Can't really say the same for OKC.

Apparently the crush on Dallas has ended and now we have a crush on Houston's weather...

Nobody said OKC is more humid. Only that, in the hottest part of summer, OKC is hotter, including when you compare heat indexes. Of course Houston's heat lasts longer, but it does not peak as high. A normal summer has few days over 100 degrees, and very few with heat indexes above 110. Can't really say the same for OKC.

Heat is fine. Hot is fine. I love it - like a baby spider. Humidity is utterly gross and Houston has it, in spades. It's just grossly uncomfortable.

Way too many idiot drivers in lifted F350s or other huge pickups. Plus its well known low cost of living is a bit of a myth once you factor property taxes and electric/ac costs.
That could pretty much be said about any large metro area in Texas, it is certainly valid for Austin.


Heat is fine. Hot is fine. I love it - like a baby spider. Humidity is utterly gross and Houston has it, in spades. It's just grossly uncomfortable.
As I have gotten older I have grown to detest the the heat and humidity, I wasn't really doing too bad in it last year until it was. Austin is typically a little more humid than OKC, or at least it was until the past summer in the prolonged drought and temps over 100 for months. A combination of of the Texas heat and property taxes were some of the factors for leaving there for Colorado.

A combination of of the Texas heat and property taxes were some of the factors for leaving there for Colorado.

One of the many reasons I am leaving Texas for OKC this year!

Apparently the crush on Dallas has ended and now we have a crush on Houston's weather... lol........it sure appears that way

Why is this in the Urban core sub-forum? Shouldn't this be in Open Topic?