Article in aviation week recently mentioned how weak the regionals are. They are bleeding cash with the 70 seats or less jets. Comair the first major operator of them here, is dumping all of theirs as fast as possible. We could see things get worse if the big regional operators start folding or force majorchanges. OKC is pretty exposed right now but not as much as other markets. We really need to see a new generation of props come out to serve the sub 400 mile market and dump the regional jets. Some may not like it but the other option will be to lose a lot of choice in markets and frequency. If it can't work on mainline it could go away. For OKC that is a lot of markets.

Venture, I totally agree with the article. Im surprised that with the surge in fuel prices that airlines have not looked more at planes like the Q-400, etc. I saw a Colgan Air (United Airlines) Q-400 parked at the terminal in DFW yesterday. High profile route IAH-DFW and it's on a prop... good call for United.

Southwest has applied for a slot to operate Oklahoma City to Washington National. The flight will be a tag from Dallas Love. It will be one flight per day.

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2012/03/southwest-airlines-proposes-no.html

This slot is currently used by US Airways for DCA-JAN (Jackson, MS). This route was originally operated by Delta and was part of the transfer to US Airways. Not sure if the DOT will approval the WN application to take this route from US Airways, but we'll see.

Application to the DOT: http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=DOT-OST-2000-7182-1867


ROUTE: DCA – OKC, with continuing single-plane service to Dallas Love Field (DAL)
SCHEDULE WESTBOUND 14:50 DCA – 16:50 OKC
17:35 OKC – 18:30 DAL
SCHEDULE EASTBOUND 9:00 DAL – 9:50 OKC
10:15 OKC – 14:04 DCA
START DATE: Within 90 days of the Department’s Final Order
AIRCRAFT TYPE: Stage III Boeing 737 aircraft (137 seats)


Southwest’s proposed service would significantly advance the statutory goals of AIR-21 and Vision 100 by fulfilling four out of the five statutory criteria, the maximum number possible. See Exhibit WN-100. Specifically, Southwest’s proposal would:

provide service by a limited incumbent air carrier at Washington National Airport; Southwest is a limited incumbent at DCA;
offer DCA nonstop service to a community currently without any such service; OKC has no nonstop service to DCA;
provide DCA service to a small community; OKC is classified as a “small hub” by the FAA; and
produce the maximum competitive benefits, including low fares; Southwest’s proposed DCA-OKC-DAL service will generate over $8 million in consumer fare savings annually, and will stimulate approximately 55,000 new passengers. See Exhibits WN-118 and WN-121.



Furthermore, Southwest’s proposal will add on-line connecting competition in several other large markets beyond OKC, by offering new travel options to and from DCA through OKC. These connecting markets - including Denver, Las Vegas, Phoenix and Houston (see Exhibit WN-205) - will benefit not just from Southwest’s new nonstop service between DCA and OKC, but also from Southwest’s low fares and its “no fees” policy for checked baggage or reservations changes.2

Good move by WN, though quite unique. Is this WN getting around the Wright Amendment and thus routing DAL-OKC-DCA ? Or, do they see good traffic potential for OKC-DCA?

Will this mean we lose OKC-BWI if approved? Or, is this just something that happens when 2 airlines merge?

I would love to see this route happen, and if so, means that we have the Washington,DC market tapped with service to all 3 airports. Fingers crossed...

southwest has applied for a slot to operate oklahoma city to washington national. The flight will be a tag from dallas love. It will be one flight per day.

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2012/03/southwest-airlines-proposes-no.html

this slot is currently used by us airways for dca-jan (jackson, ms). This route was originally operated by delta and was part of the transfer to us airways. Not sure if the dot will approval the wn application to take this route from us airways, but we'll see.

Application to the dot: http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentdetail;d=dot-ost-2000-7182-1867

this route would be frickin awesome!

They say comments will be taken through March 20th (I think that was the date). Is this for people to write in support of this application?

this would be great for OKC

I think this will be wildly successful.

About a year and a half ago I flew the OKC-Dulles flight on Continental and it was packed. Not sure if they still operate that flight though.

Unless your final destination is Northern Virginia, it would be far more convenient to fly into National since its right on the DC Metro. Hope we get this.

Good move by WN, though quite unique. Is this WN getting around the Wright Amendment and thus routing DAL-OKC-DCA ? Or, do they see good traffic potential for OKC-DCA?

Will this mean we lose OKC-BWI if approved? Or, is this just something that happens when 2 airlines merge?

I would love to see this route happen, and if so, means that we have the Washington,DC market tapped with service to all 3 airports. Fingers crossed...

DAL will be tagged on the DCA service, if approved. This does allow them to sell it as DAL-DCA as well, however they aren't expecting much more than 10k passengers to come from Dallas. Another 18.5K will be connecting through OKC from cities like DEN, LAS, and PHX. OKC O&D is suppose to be around 40.5K. Total seats available look to be 100,010 and an estimate of 72,404 pax per year. Not bad to start out around a 72% load factor.

I don't see OKC-BWI going away as more connection opportunities will be there. WN will never be very large in DCA. That is US Airways turf and will be for awhile. I'm sure this has some to do with the acquisition of AirTran. They have some limited DCA service now, but there isn't much they can do until they really start merging the schedules. They just go the Single Operating Certificate a week ago and things will likely still take 2 years to get everything completely merged.

I'm 50/50 on this happening. There will be a lot of political pressure to keep Jackson, MS in place, since we'll be taking that slot away. It would be nice if they could find a way to have both.


They say comments will be taken through March 20th (I think that was the date). Is this for people to write in support of this application?

Yes and also for other airlines to apply for this slot. US Airways is applying to retain the slot for service to Jackson, MS which was awarded to them on a temporary bases with Delta (ASA) ceased operating the flight. Frontier has also applied for the slot for service to Louisville.

I think this will be wildly successful.

About a year and a half ago I flew the OKC-Dulles flight on Continental and it was packed. Not sure if they still operate that flight though.

Unless your final destination is Northern Virginia, it would be far more convenient to fly into National since its right on the DC Metro. Hope we get this.

Yes, United (even though the Continental logo is everywhere LOL) still operates this flight.

Good move by WN, though quite unique. Is this WN getting around the Wright Amendment and thus routing DAL-OKC-DCA ? Or, do they see good traffic potential for OKC-DCA?

The Wright Amendment will basically cease to exist in 2014.

And with it all the OKC-DEN-OKC and maybe even this OKC-DCA-OKC flight (if it's in operation then). DAL would essentially be open to any contiguous U.S. destination in the WN network. That new terminal down there is coming at a good time. It will be a welcome change for connections, not that the current one is all that bad but it's small and cramped, and food choice is lacking. The new one will solve all of that.

http://newsok.com/southwest-airlines-requests-spot-at-d.c.s-ronald-reagan-washington-national-airport-for-nonstop-to-will-rogers-world-airport-in-oklahoma-city/article/3655851

And with it all the OKC-DEN-OKC and maybe even this OKC-DCA-OKC flight (if it's in operation then). DAL would essentially be open to any contiguous U.S. destination in the WN network. That new terminal down there is coming at a good time. It will be a welcome change for connections, not that the current one is all that bad but it's small and cramped, and food choice is lacking. The new one will solve all of that.

Yeah connections through DAL are definitely becoming wide open with all the direct service that is possible out of there now. Once 2014 gets here we'll probably see them realign one of the AirTran slots to fly DAL-DCA nonstop and still retain the tag through OKC - if approved.


http://newsok.com/southwest-airlines-requests-spot-at-d.c.s-ronald-reagan-washington-national-airport-for-nonstop-to-will-rogers-world-airport-in-oklahoma-city/article/3655851

Nice of the local media to finally jump on this. LOL Though they were probably waiting for comments back. Article wasn't bad though. It did kind of leave out that US Airways is already using the slot to Jackson on a temp basis since DL dropped the route. Other than that, pretty much on track - which is a rare thing with local media and the airport's news. lol

Looks like KOCO had as well the other night in their news. Seems like the story was reported without any mistakes.

http://www.koco.com/video/30636855/detail.html

As far as OKC though, I think 2012 will be a pretty good year for passenger traffic, barring any unforseen challenges of course. Nice to see two DL mainliners to anywhere :P.

I think OKC could have so much more traffic if it weren't for some ridiculous fares at times when compared to other nearby airports. I along with co-workers have flown 40+ times since early 2011 and about a third of the time, we've ended up booking out of DAL, DFW, TUL, or ICT because the fares can be drastically cheaper from those locations. I'm talking some significant fare differences here, so I'm not being such a tightwad that I'd drive to Dallas or Tulsa just to save a total of $200 for my company or anything. For example,...from OKC to CHS last month on WN, it was going to cost $2600 round trip for four of us. And that's booking 14 + days in advance. Instead, I booked where we carpooled to Love Field and all got round trip tickets for a total of $1280. So basically, it would have cost my company more than double just for the four of us to fly the 30 minutes from OKC to DAL and then catch the same flight to CHS as opposed to just the fare from DAL to CHS. Of course, we had a couple of stops on the way courtesy of the Wright Amendment, but it was the same connection. Why such higher prices in our market?? It happens all the time.

Another example...OKC to LAS for 4 people ran $1,600 round trip on WN. It was about the same on other carriers, but there are layovers. (Damn, I miss Champion) Now simply drive the two+ hrs to ICT and fly Allegiant, and pay round trip non-stop for around $760. Factor in the gas to and from Wichita and you're still over $800 ahead for that trip alone. Amazing! For all you high rollers out there, please don't laugh. But if you are a small business owner in this economy trying to run a lean ship, this all adds up over time.

I can't be the only small business in OKC that occasionally books corporate travel for multiple employees from other nearby airports in order to save thousands in travel costs over the course of the year. OKC to anywhere is NEVER the lower fare, which isn't the issue. If it's reasonably close, then OKC it is. I understand we're not a hub and have to connect many times for many destinations. It's just that about a third of the time, it seems the fares to some destinations from OKC are extremely out of whack compared to other airports...even others that have to connect in Dallas, Denver, Atlanta, or Chicago.

Why such a difference? Will this ever change???

Unfortunately right now it comes down to loads being strong and yields being very high. Airlines are able to make bank here and that keeps them happy. This is why you see WN adding MDW and also trying to add DCA - the first pure WN city to operate from DCA. That says something. The fares on WN you are quoting are a bit high, but the cheap seats sell out quick here. Looking at the fares right now...WN one way on the Wanna Get Away fare (the lowest available) is $213 out of Dallas and $210 out of OKC. So for that there isn't that much of an advantage. Keep in mind that only limited markets have any 14 or 21 day discounts on WN, mostly only get 7 day discount fares.

The other major factor against lower fares is lack of competition. WN helps keeps fares down a bit, but they aren't the low fare leader like they use to be. They really help to keep the Y fares low. AirTran would have been a hope...but they are part of WN now. We really only have a few options...JetBlue, Allegiant, and Virgin America. Frontier which is here is struggling overall, so that is limiting their ability to attack is low right now. JetBlue hasn't show much interest in Fly Over Country. Allegiant has come and gone and won't be back. Virgin America has no interest here as well. So yeah...

I can't be the only small business in OKC that occasionally books corporate travel for multiple employees from other nearby airports in order to save thousands in travel costs over the course of the year. OKC to anywhere is NEVER the lower fare, which isn't the issue. If it's reasonably close, then OKC it is. I understand we're not a hub and have to connect many times for many destinations. It's just that about a third of the time, it seems the fares to some destinations from OKC are extremely out of whack compared to other airports...even others that have to connect in Dallas, Denver, Atlanta, or Chicago.

Why such a difference? Will this ever change???

Video, I'm not saying you didn't have that problem but sentiments that fares are always higher from OKC are simply not true. I deal with airline fares every day and have for many years so I follow what's going on closely. I have seen an occasion where a passenger who wanted to originate in Dallas actually flew to OKC first and then back his destination through Dallas because it saved money. Airline fares can fluctuate wildly and sometimes it's just the luck of the draw based on when you book as to which city might be less expensive.

There are a few areas such as the Northeast and Denver in particular where fares have dropped signficantly compared to what they were a few years ago from OKC.

Video, I'm not saying you didn't have that problem but sentiments that fares are always higher from OKC are simply not true. I deal with airline fares every day and have for many years so I follow what's going on closely. I have seen an occasion where a passenger who wanted to originate in Dallas actually flew to OKC first and then back his destination through Dallas because it saved money. Airline fares can fluctuate wildly and sometimes it's just the luck of the draw based on when you book as to which city might be less expensive.

There are a few areas such as the Northeast and Denver in particular where fares have dropped signficantly compared to what they were a few years ago from OKC.

Just bought roundtrip airfare from OKC to Barcelona, Spain for the middle of May. Our kids bought the exact same days (going on cruise with us) roundtrip from Houston to Barcelona. We paid almost 50 bucks less than they did per fare, plus our fight time is shorter both directions. We are flying Delta, they are flying British Airways. I love flying BA, but I was surprised we got the better price.

Have fun in Barcelona. Fantastic city.

I found this article really interesting:

Terminal Sickness
How a thirty-year-old policy of deregulation is slowly killing America’s airline system—and taking down Cincinnati, Memphis, and St. Louis with it.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/march_april_2012/features/terminal_sickness035756.php

Yeah the whole deregulating of the airline industry is an interesting discussion. When the airlines were guaranteed routes cities saw more service. Now a lot of those cities are falling to the side because of poor planning by the airlines and their love of RJs. Add in record high fuel costs and you really get a double wammy. Passengers wonder what happened to their $200 round trip fares that were fully upgradeable to first class with frequent flyer program perks. Now you are lucky to fly for most places for that amount. Well unless you choose Allegiant or Spirit...but there you are likely to upgrade your package with additional revenue generating features that brings the cost of your trip up closer to others.

Have fun in Barcelona. Fantastic city.

Thanks, we're spending 3 extra days in Barcelona before and after the cruise.

Thanks, we're spending 3 extra days in Barcelona before and after the cruise.

Enjoy the Ramblas and all of the unique architecture.

I found this article really interesting:

Terminal Sickness
How a thirty-year-old policy of deregulation is slowly killing America’s airline system—and taking down Cincinnati, Memphis, and St. Louis with it.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/march_april_2012/features/terminal_sickness035756.php

It would have been a lot more interesting had the writer been less interested in promoting his particular agenda and more interested in actually examining the facts. For example - the headline theme of the article, to-wit: that deregulation is taking down the likes of Cincinnati, Memphis and St. Louis is completely not examined. The writer compares 2011 service at those airports after they were de-hubbed, with their service levels when they were major hubs. How does their current service compare to what they had pre-deregulation? My guess is that their service post-deregulation was vastly greater when they were hubs than anything they had pre-deregulation, and that their service now is probably still not that different from what they had pre-deregulation.

(And the writer apparently needs to learn how to use Travelocity. It is very easy to find 9 non-stop flights per day between Pittsburgh and Washington DC, at all times of day, not just 2 flights both leaving before 6 in the morning.)

All in all, a fundamentally dishonest article.

Further to my previous post criticizing the Washington Monthly article, with a minimal level of curiosity one should be able to expect of a writer in such a publication, he should have been aware of the existence of Southwest Airlines, which does not make its flights available on Travelocity and offers at least 4 flights per day nonstop between Pittsburgh and the Washington DC area. That brings us to 13 nonstop flights a day at all times of the day, not the 2 flights per day, both before 6 AM. Are the other "facts" quoted in the article as reliable as his research into available flights?

I would say those cities benefitted heavily from deregulation, since all of them became major air hubs after deregulation.

It is only recently that those airports lost that status - and that was due to consolidation/mergers and NOT deregulation. ...

I would say those cities benefitted heavily from deregulation, since all of them became major air hubs after deregulation.

It is only recently that those airports lost that status - and that was due to consolidation/mergers and NOT deregulation. ...

Exactly

It really depends on the city and/or airport. Memphis was a Delta hub and post derug lost it to Atlanta completely. The biggest impact has been the loss of service to dozens of small and medium sized cities.

It really depends on the city and/or airport. Memphis was a Delta hub and post derug lost it to Atlanta completely. The biggest impact has been the loss of service to dozens of small and medium sized cities.

Two things:

1. You missed the point. Memphis became a Delta hub post-dergegulation. To blame any loss of hub status on deregulation is nonsensical, and their air service now is probably comparable to (or perhaps still better than) what they had pre-deregulation.

2. Memphis has NOT lost their hub to Atlanta completely... Memphis is still a Delta hub, with about 160 flights per day.

Two things:

1. You missed the point. Memphis became a Delta hub post-dergegulation. To blame any loss of hub status on deregulation is nonsensical, and their air service now is probably comparable to (or perhaps still better than) what they had pre-deregulation.

2. Memphis has NOT lost their hub to Atlanta completely... Memphis is still a Delta hub, with about 160 flights per day.

You missed a bit of history my friend. Memphis was a Delta hub WAY back before they got it from Northwest. It was a hub by Delta until they consolidated east. Southern then moved in later and formed up a hub there which moved to Republic when Southern and NCA merged. Then Northwest acquired Republic and the rest is history. So it has been back and forth, but did fall earlier and was reborn. However today it is pretty weak and likely won't last long.

Either way it doesn't really matter. There has been good and bad from deregulation. Whats done is done.

You missed a bit of history my friend. Memphis was a Delta hub WAY back before they got it from Northwest. It was a hub by Delta until they consolidated east. Southern then moved in later and formed up a hub there which moved to Republic when Southern and NCA merged. Then Northwest acquired Republic and the rest is history. So it has been back and forth, but did fall earlier and was reborn. However today it is pretty weak and likely won't last long.

Either way it doesn't really matter. There has been good and bad from deregulation. Whats done is done.

I did not miss that history, but you misreported it. The earlier Delta hub was consolidated into their then-DFW hub, not east to Atlanta. And, even more to the point, all of the hubbing occurred POST-deregulation, so it is silly to blame any DE-hubbing on deregulation.

To get more back on topic and out of history discussions (which we should probably move it to a new thread OC)...

Yesterday was the closing date for all comments and applications on the DCA slots. Decision is expected in 60 days. If Southwest is awarded the AIR 21 slot, service will begin with in 90 days. Hoping it happens. It'll be great having more people flying to OKC to connect to their final destination (DCA in this case).

I'm curious to "if" WN is approved for this route, what time slot would they be shooting for here. Is this route going to be advertised to the DAL market as service now to DCA...or will it be more so advertised to the OKC market. You don't have much in the form of "connecting" at DCA with WN so what slot makes sense and what is available?

On a side note I see DCA just got approved for SAN service.

^My guess is it will likely be an early morning departure from DAL (keep in mind this flight will originate there), make the usual quick WN stop here at OKC and then go to DCA. The return flight will probably be a late evening departure from DCA, coming to OKC late evening as well and land at DAL late at night. Then again this is only my guess, keeping in mind that DCA is mostly origin-and-destination traffic and business travellers will be likely using the service. It also depends on what slot Southwest gets.

^My guess is it will likely be an early morning departure from DAL (keep in mind this flight will originate there), make the usual quick WN stop here at OKC and then go to DCA. The return flight will probably be a late evening departure from DCA, coming to OKC late evening as well and land at DAL late at night. Then again this is only my guess, keeping in mind that DCA is mostly origin-and-destination traffic and business travellers will be likely using the service. It also depends on what slot Southwest gets.

From the Oklahoman



According to Southwest's application, dated March 5, the airline would use a Boeing 737 aircraft with 137 seats for the flight. It would first connect from Dallas to Oklahoma City, depart Oklahoma City at 9:50 a.m. daily and arrive at Washington National at 2:05 p.m. A return flight would depart the nation's capital at 2:50 p.m. and arrive in Oklahoma City at 5:35 p.m. The aircraft would then continue to Dallas.



Read more: http://newsok.com/southwest-airlines-requests-spot-at-d.c.s-ronald-reagan-washington-national-airport-for-nonstop-to-will-rogers-world-airport-in-oklahoma-city/article/3655851#ixzz1przFAkSW

Depart KOKC at 9:50am and arrive at DCA at 2:05pm? Talk about some serious lack of airspeed there. Unless it's suppose to be 12:05pm. I guess those flight times are alright though I would have liked to have seen a slightly later departure time. Will the flight back from DCA be on the same equipment as the flight there or will there be a change of aircraft?

Depart KOKC at 9:50am and arrive at DCA at 2:05pm? Talk about some serious lack of airspeed there. Unless it's suppose to be 12:05pm. I guess those flight times are alright though I would have liked to have seen a slightly later departure time. Will the flight back from DCA be on the same equipment as the flight there or will there be a change of aircraft?

3 hours 15 minutes doesn't strike me as unusually long for an OKC-DCA flight.

The details were all in post 67 of this thread: http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=28246&p=515724#post515724

Directly from the filing...


ROUTE: DCA – OKC, with continuing single-plane service to Dallas Love Field (DAL)
SCHEDULE WESTBOUND 14:50 DCA – 16:50 OKC
17:35 OKC – 18:30 DAL
SCHEDULE EASTBOUND 9:00 DAL – 9:50 OKC
10:15 OKC – 14:04 DCA
START DATE: Within 90 days of the Department’s Final Order​
AIRCRAFT TYPE: Stage III Boeing 737 aircraft (137 seats)

Then here are other details on the traffic flow I posted a few posts later...


DAL will be tagged on the DCA service, if approved. This does allow them to sell it as DAL-DCA as well, however they aren't expecting much more than 10k passengers to come from Dallas. Another 18.5K will be connecting through OKC from cities like DEN, LAS, and PHX. OKC O&D is suppose to be around 40.5K. Total seats available look to be 100,010 and an estimate of 72,404 pax per year. Not bad to start out around a 72% load factor.

They aren't connecting at DCA, they are connecting traffic in OKC. Nearly 20% of the traffic on the flight is expected to be connections into OKC.

I'm curious to "if" WN is approved for this route, what time slot would they be shooting for here. Is this route going to be advertised to the DAL market as service now to DCA...or will it be more so advertised to the OKC market. You don't have much in the form of "connecting" at DCA with WN so what slot makes sense and what is available?

On a side note I see DCA just got approved for SAN service.

The route will be marketed as a nonstop for OKC and a direct for Dallas. Nothing too difficult. Only a small percentage of traffic is forecast to be originating in Dallas.

DCA-SAN is a reassignment of an existing slot US Airways had...nothing that needed approval.


Depart KOKC at 9:50am and arrive at DCA at 2:05pm? Talk about some serious lack of airspeed there. Unless it's suppose to be 12:05pm. I guess those flight times are alright though I would have liked to have seen a slightly later departure time. Will the flight back from DCA be on the same equipment as the flight there or will there be a change of aircraft?

It is the same aircraft. DAL-OKC-DCA-OKC-DAL. There is no other aircraft in DCA to do a swap.

Good luck OKC. I hope we get it. It will be nice to see OKC get some connecting traffic, which WILL increase pax numbers and I dont doubt we break the 4M ceiling with just this addition.

However, I must say those flight times are horrible. Why can't the flight depart OKC at 730 and arrive at 12:00 noon. Then, depart DCA at 6pm and arrive OKC at 8pm (originating DAL at 640am, arriving DAL at 850pm). To me, this timing would just about guarantee success - as pax could in theory depart OKC (or DAL) in the morning, arrive for lunch in DC and conduct your 3-5 hour meeting, then hop the flight back and be home before late - all in one day. No need for a hotel - a HUGE benefit/savings for the business traveler. During the 'DC layover: noon-6pm portion', the plane could serve a different route and a new plane be used for the OKC return.

Their current 'proposal' doesn't capitalize on anything and makes it more difficult for the flight to have longevity in my opinion, as you would require an overnight stay (unless you flew United for one leg from IAD or WN from BWI). I wish airlines would develop routings that benefit pax they are trying to serve instead of just positioning planes and forcing people to adapt to very poor scheduling.

3 hours 15 minutes doesn't strike me as unusually long for an OKC-DCA flight.

I think damonsmuz made the mistake that many make when looking at flight schedules. They forget to take different time zones into account. The departure and arrival times are always the local time at the arrival or departure airport.

Not a mistake on the flight time. I've flown the OKC-BWI flight a few times and with "normal" tail winds, the flight was never longer than 2 hours and 25 mins (including taxi). If you check WN's website, they have OKC-BWI listed as a 2:45 min flight. Maybe WN is just padding the flight time which I know airlines usually do. Or I have just been blessed with really quick flights back east :)

Venture: on the DCA-SAN route, I thought flights outside of the DCA "perimeter" rule needed approval. Making this flight in my eyes something interesting to see.

http://newsok.com/february-departures-take-a-leap-at-will-rogers-world-airport-and-tulsa-international-airport/article/3659952 (link)

Looks like February departures were up 16%. Holy cow.

Not a mistake on the flight time. I've flown the OKC-BWI flight a few times and with "normal" tail winds, the flight was never longer than 2 hours and 25 mins (including taxi). If you check WN's website, they have OKC-BWI listed as a 2:45 min flight. Maybe WN is just padding the flight time which I know airlines usually do. Or I have just been blessed with really quick flights back east :)

Airlines typically pad the flight time. It has to include gate to gate and at many airports you can get behind a lot of planes waiting for takeoff or in some places have to wait for other traffic after landing before going to your arrival gate.

Found this and thought some of you would enjoy: http://www.departedflights.com/oagintro.html

Old flight table... gotta click to find OKC. It seemed that Enid and Amarillo were well served at one point. DFW was not well served back in the 70s...and you can really see how the building of the new DIA and getting rid of Stapelton pushed airlines to Denver. A good case of " if you build it, they will come syndrome" that worked very well for Denver.

Also, the equipment used is fun to see.

Venture: on the DCA-SAN route, I thought flights outside of the DCA "perimeter" rule needed approval. Making this flight in my eyes something interesting to see.

I'm thinking they have been able to rearrange a beyond perimeter flight to another market. I'll have to check


Found this and thought some of you would enjoy: http://www.departedflights.com/oagintro.html

Old flight table... gotta click to find OKC. It seemed that Enid and Amarillo were well served at one point. DFW was not well served back in the 70s...and you can really see how the building of the new DIA and getting rid of Stapelton pushed airlines to Denver. A good case of " if you build it, they will come syndrome" that worked very well for Denver.

Also, the equipment used is fun to see.

I really enjoy Departed Flights. The guy actually shut down and I was thinking of taking it over, if he was willing. I'm sitting on probably 400 timetables myself and would love to get them scanned and uploaded. Lot of them from the 50s/60s/etc. I always enjoy looking back and seeing what was offered before. My old hometown airport use to have United DC-8s to Chicago and Denver (and several other airlines), but today has only a half dozen American Eagle flights. Funny how some markets just really blossom or completely die away.

Great resource, damonsmuz. Thanks for posting

http://newsok.com/february-departures-take-a-leap-at-will-rogers-world-airport-and-tulsa-international-airport/article/3659952 (http://link)

Looks like February departures were up 16%. Holy cow.

Good numbers, but by the airport's own admission, there were two back-to-back blizzards that time one year ago, there are three additional flights daily this year (new LAX and SFO service), several large events took place this Feb. (sporting events such as the Nadia Comaneci Invitational, conferences, etc.) all of which partially impacted numbers between Feb. 2011 and Feb. 2012.

Now if this were the case on a normal basis, that East Concourse would be already built.

By the way, the "if you build it they will come" deal is pretty much over. At least with the airline industry. In Denver's case, the city actually was in dire need of a new airport. Stapleton was riddled with problems, from intersecting runways to a bad airfield layout that effectively turned it into a single-runway airport during bad weather (3 out of the 4 runways had to be shut down).

Look at Mid-America airport near St. Louis. Two words-Ghost Town. It was built on the "if you build it they will come" moniker. Now it's just a waste of money. I seriously don't know why it's being kept. Another great example of failure of that philosophy-Montreal's Mirabel Airport. Now it's just used by Bombardier for aircraft manufacturing/testing, and a few flights by cargo carriers. It was intended to replace Dorval, which is a lot closer to the city.

On another note, since the late 90's/early 2000's, airlines have added extra time to their flight schedules to account for taxi/gate delays at both, origin and destination airports. That's why even though the flight itself may take 2:45, the actual flight time (gate-to-gate) maybe 3:20. Like AA's OKC-DFW flights-they only take around 40 min once airborne, but the entire flight time is listed as 1:05.

On another note, since the late 90's/early 2000's, airlines have added extra time to their flight schedules to account for taxi/gate delays at both, origin and destination airports. That's why even though the flight itself may take 2:45, the actual flight time (gate-to-gate) maybe 3:20. Like AA's OKC-DFW flights-they only take around 40 min once airborne, but the entire flight time is listed as 1:05.

That's exactly what I pointed out in my post number 111.

Yes, I know the flight times are "padded". I was just referencing why OKC-DCA would be listed as 3:15 when OKC-BWI is listed as 2:45. Is BWI not padded enough or is DCA being padded too much? DCA and BWI only differ by a little bit in terms of operations. I believe DCA would have more, but not much more. But is it enough to account for 30 extra mins of pad?

Yes, I know the flight times are "padded". I was just referencing why OKC-DCA would be listed as 3:15 when OKC-BWI is listed as 2:45. Is BWI not padded enough or is DCA being padded too much? DCA and BWI only differ by a little bit in terms of operations. I believe DCA would have more, but not much more. But is it enough to account for 30 extra mins of pad?

They'll probably fine tunes things if the award is given. Keeping in mind WN doesn't have any ops into DCA right now except under FL (AirTran). Inexperience with the market may be a reason to a pad a little or just expected delays on the ground could be playing into this too.

Another possible reason-probably because flying westbound generally involves going against headwinds. This is negligeble for flight times of an hour or less, but the more the distance increases, the greater the effect is going to be, especially for flights from the east coast. You'll find flight times varying by an hour or so for the coast-to-coast flights, BOS-LAX normally takes about an hour longer than LAX-BOS. Or DEN-JFK and JFK-DEN, same thing.

DCA and BWI only differ by a little bit in terms of operations. I believe DCA would have more, but not much more. But is it enough to account for 30 extra mins of pad?

BWI has 84 gates and DCA has 45. That can make a big difference in operation times with similar traffic.

BWI has 84 gates and DCA has 45. That can make a big difference in operation times with similar traffic.

DCA also has the unique landing patterns because of its proximity to DC and it only has two working runways for commercial aviation. Generally, planes that are 737 or larger use one runway and commuter jets use the shorter runway.

Quick update here. Pinnacle filed for Chapter 11 earlier this week and part of that is the removal of the Dash 8 Q400 fleet. They currently operate 3 of the daily flights to IAH from OKC. The plan appears to replace them with existing 50-seat ERJ 145s in the fleet and they are also bringing the ERJ 135s out of the desert as well. Won't see the new schedule for OKC-IAH for a few months, but generally it does look like OKC will see a net loss in seats available offered by United to Houston. We'll see if United, which I believe may own the aircraft and just lease them to Pinnacle, puts them with another operator and keeps them on the route.

Weren't these Q400's originally owned by Colgan Air? From the outside looking in, it seems that using the 400s would be a good idea and using the 135's would be a waste when it comes to fuel efficiency. But, that's just my thought.

Yeah but Colgan became a subsidiary of Pinnacle. Btw looks like the Q400s won't be all gone until November:
http://atwonline.com/airline-finance-data/news/us-regional-pinnacle-files-chapter-11-0402

The Saab 340Bs will be gone much sooner. But if Colgan isn't making money with Q400s it does need to do some restructuring.

There was an article in Airways a month or two back that hinted that Pinnacle/Colgan's contract with United was at rates that were sustainable with current fuel prices. It was stated then that bankruptcy was a likely event in order to take care of this. So it probably has nothing to do with the Q400 itself, but the fact that they were tired in a capacity purchase agreement that forced them to sell 100% of inventory well below cost.

I do agree that swapping the Qs for the 135s would be horrible. Fares will have to be higher to offset fewer seats and higher fuel costs. The airlines are getting kicked in the face for dumping the more efficient props for the small jets. It is also costing many small/medium markets air service they've had for decades too. The other side to this is that aircraft makers have backed away from any new generation props. Saab is done making airplanes. Dornier is dead. Embraer is all jet now. Bombardier stopped making the Q200/300 and the Q400 is pretty pricey. Beechcraft stopped with the 1900, but will restart if they get a large order. ATR is still pumping out 42s and 72s, but that is about it.

It's a shame to see the prop business fall the way it has because in all reality, the prop business should be booming now with the way gas prices are. Airlines have let public perception impact them way to much when it comes to prop. vs jet. Sadly, until an airline/s shows a huge amount of interest for prop planes again, the likelyhood of riding in one again will be hard to come by. I personally enjoy them. There are no replacements out there for props. Is Great Lakes and Horizon the only US airline still operating them? I flew on Skywest a few times in the 120 (which is like riding a hot rod). The fewer props left out there, the less likely we are to ever see towns like Woodward, Enid, Ponca City, etc see EAS service.

On a side note, I see Garden City, KS just started EAS service with AE. I wonder how many Panhandlers are going to Kansas to fly. Or even how many people in NW Oklahoma (Woodward) are willing to make that drive to fly out.