All cities deal with these issues in their entertainment districts.

Can you imagine the issues at Old Town Pasadena or L.A. Live, right across from the Staples Center? Yet, those are considered safe places to be and still attract throngs.


OKC leaders need to pull their heads out of the sand about these issues. Unfortunately, it's too late to repair the horrible national PR due to last night's incident.

OKC may need to take a lesson from the police in NO during Mardi gras...

OKC may need to take a lesson from the police in NO during Mardi gras...

Pray tell what lesson might that be?

Pray tell what lesson might that be?

Crowd control

We don't have to reinvent the wheel here.

Much bigger cities with much bigger districts constantly filled with tons of people have already dealt with these issues.

Our city leaders need to get their crap together, admit there is a bigger problem, and go learn from cities that have been dealing with unruly crowds for decades.


Good grief, I've spent tons of time in Times Square (used to stay near there on frequent business trips) and never felt unsafe. This is a well-solvable problem, but it starts with recognition.

Ironically enough, I talked with a friend from high school who is now one of OKC's finest, and he was talking about this *very* issue last Friday. He brought up the fact that there is an increasing "wrong crowd" showing up around Bricktown and the Thunder Alley area, and a substantially increased area police presence is the first, best defense at this point.

Remember when there was a terrorist bombing on the subway in London not long after 9/11?

Here's how they handled it and I thought it was amazing:
1. Tony Blair showed up to ride the Tube the very next morning and held a big press conference
2. He laid out a plan demonstrating massively increased security all throughout their mass transit system
3. He and the government took responsibility for the safety of the citizens
3. He rode the train and asked that people get on with their lives

And it worked. Life went on pretty much un-interrupted and there was not another incident.


City leaders need to step up and fast. Very little was even said at today's City Council meeting. The mayor should have been ready with at least a strong statement about how they are taking responsibility and working on a plan to put many more armed officers on the street for these events.

Bricktown is still a great place to go, it is a good place for families and visitors before dark. But when you hit the late night, a different crowd comes out, and if you are not part of that crowd, then just don't go.

"City leaders need to step up and fast. Very little was even said at today's City Council meeting. The mayor should have been ready with at least a strong statement about how they are taking responsibility and working on a plan to put many more armed officers on the street for these events."

I totally agree! If there isn't a press conference with some sort of plan of action along with a very stern and authoritative tone then our major, police chief will have missed a perfect opportunity to actually 'lead' this city through this moment.

Ironically enough, I talked with a friend from high school who is now one of OKC's finest, and he was talking about this *very* issue last Friday. He brought up the fact that there is an increasing "wrong crowd" showing up around Bricktown and the Thunder Alley area, and a substantially increased area police presence is the first, best defense at this point.

I was there last night when this happened. I'm also a season ticket holder, so I'm very familiar with the type of people and type of crowd that shows up to Thunder games. I can confirm what your friend is saying. They people causing the trouble are just now showing up to the games. I don't even think they're Thunder fans. It seems as if they're just showing up because that's where everyone is.

When I was walking to my car in Bricktown last night, just before the shots were fired, I witnessed approximately 5 different groups of people getting in fights or near fights. None of them were dressed in team colors and they all were a "different crowd" than what usually shows up to games.

The cops were almost everywhere last night. It just happened that the shooting took place just beyond where the last patrol car was stationed. They were doing a pretty good job with crowd control immediately after the game let out-- I saw them immediately detain/arrest a couple of people causing trouble. It was as the crowd got further into Bricktown that they couldn't have had control. I saw people yelling at each other from across the street and others throwing up gang signs. It was absolutely disgusting.

Still, there probably needs to be at least 50 more cops dispersed through the area, probably on horseback, to properly control the nearly 30,000 people who were there.

Anyway, I just wanted to emphasize that those causing the problems clearly appear (at least to me) to be people who are not even Thunder fans. They're just thugs who show up and try to act tough and end up getting violent.

Its official just saw that the mayor said no more thunder alley...

Has there been a description of the ner-do-wells or are they already{hopefully}in custody?

Bricktown is still a great place to go, it is a good place for families and visitors before dark. But when you hit the late night, a different crowd comes out, and if you are not part of that crowd, then just don't go.

I think your post is well intentioned, but as a long time dweller of OKC and dweller and visitor of many other big cities, I disagree. This is our city, and we should be safe in our streets. That doesn't mean, "don't use street smarts." What that means is people in Oklahoma seem paranoid about crime anyway, and it does no good to obsess about something that could have happened anywhere and stop going out.

The city needs to come up with a solution other than "shut everything down," as that will kill the momentum this city has.

As citizens, we need to use street smarts but continue to enjoy our city -- and even at night. To do otherwise gives the city over to the bad seeds.

It should also be noted that the problems last night reportedly were between people that got into a squabble.

I don't think it was a situation where this was just random violence.

If some young trouble-makers tried to hassle me, I just wouldn't engage them and keep moving. I worked in what many consider some of the worst parts of L.A. -- and that's saying something -- and have never had a problem.


Mind your own business and you almost never have anything to worry about.


Still, people should feel safe and its a communities responsibility to provide that.

Its official just saw that the mayor said no more thunder alley...

Where did you see that? The Thunder are explicitly denying this. They say Thunder Alley will continue with changes.

From Mayor Cornett's Facebook Page

"We are currently working with Oklahoma City Thunder to find a solution that focuses on keeping fans and citizens safe in Thunder Alley.

There will continue to be a Thunder Alley pre-game event so that fans can continue to enjoy the excitement of the NBA Playoffs. The idea that we can have 10,000-plus people outside the arena at night, however, poses a number of potential public safety risks to both those outside and inside Chesapeake Arena.

We are looking at a number of options that will maintain public safety while allowing the Thunder’s many fans to celebrate our continuing playoff run in a way that is family-friendly, safe and responsible."

Oklahoma has sentenced people before for up to life in prison, or close to it, over marijuana charges after no one was hurt from it, for example, Will Foster, who got 93 years, so I don't see why this shooter shouldn't be sentenced to life in prison.

I have a friend who is a police chief, and he told me open carry will be a nightmare for law enforcement.

Now, I'll leave this thread to those who have a paranoia, masculinity or ego problem:).
If I'm right, states have not been repealing open carry laws, so I'll go by that and conclude having open carry laws have not led to bad problems over the years. Kinda interesting how Oklahoma lawmakers aren't listening to police who oppose open carry. They tend to take opinions from cops rather seriously.

Oklahoma has sentenced people before for up to life in prison, or close to it, over marijuana charges after no one was hurt from it, for example, Will Foster, who got 93 years, so I don't see why this shooter shouldn't be sentenced to life in prison.

What is it with Oklahoma and Cannabis? Seriously it's time to legalize. I agree with you on the shooter.

I have a friend who is a police chief, and he told me open carry will be a nightmare for law enforcement.
That is always an administrators approach, he would probably favor a ban on all gun ownership as well. Maybe we should follow the lead of the British and ban all sharp pointed knives as well since they can be used as weapons. I know quite a few officers on the street who are not in favor of such bans, once the thug element has no fear of repercussions of their behavior from the citizens they become even more brazen and aggressive. It still comes down to the fact that thugs are going to be thugs and have no regard for the law in the first place and most are just looking for trouble, this is something that can happen at all large gatherings or popular places. There have been some incidents on the 16th Street Mall here in Denver and I remember issues in the West End when I lived in Dallas in the early 90's. Nothing is new and the mentality of banning everything doesn't solve the real issues.

Wow another shooting in Bricktown, what are they going to do now, close down Zio's? Goes to show violence in Bricktown is bigger than Thunder Alley!

http://www.news9.com/story/18633919/one-arrested-in-early-sunday-morning-shooting-in-bricktown

Day-um, and not a Jumbotron one on an outside wall.
Be interesting to see what activity the city poo-bahs decide they might need to stomp on this time around.

No ravioli after 11:30 perhaps?
Tasers fly at 2:04 am to clear the streets?

We have a gun-oriented culture, especially where young males are concerned. Anywhere you have a bunch of young men gathered, especially if alcohol and/or drugs are available, this is going to happen from time to time. Before people were carrying guns regularly, there were fist fights at bars. We're going to have to accept the fact that guns have replaced fists for some people, as instruments of aggression.

There was yet another shooting last night in Bricktown by Zio's.

I think it's time that Thunder Alley returns in time for Game 3. Especially after a second shooting in just a week, I think Bricktown needs to fall on the sword finally. Bricktown needs to go to Trashaholics Anonymous meetings and all of those business owners need to stand up and say, "I am the owner of a trashy business, and I need help."

For publicity, the news, and other outlets to allow Bricktown to get away with pinning the blame on the Thunder is just unimaginable. I am still livid about this. Bricktown is trashy central and this last week needs to be an opportunity that we ceize upon, ram it down the throats of Bricktown, and force them to make some changes. Bricktown can not go on as a trashy nightlife district or the public investment (canal, ballpark, streetscapes, and more) will be wasted and Bricktown will whither away.

Or perhaps Bricktown needs to whiter away for 5 years or so and then make a true mixed-use comeback a la West End. But the point is that right now Bricktown is trashy, not fitting of OKC's "best district," and the area has gone downhill significantly in the last 5 years. Now what do we do about it?

Bringing back Thunder Alley would probably be a step in the right direction. So would allowing food trucks (Bricktown restaurant have refused to allow affordable competition into the district). IMO the Bricktown Association needs to be disbanded and the City needs to temporarily exercise some major control in the district which has proven itself incapable of self-guidance.

Let me be clear before others see this post that I have no problem with urbanized or any of his efforts, but I see Chad trying to bring some class to the district, trying to diversify land-uses and grow retail, in a vacuum without the support of anyone else in that district. I also think another poster on this site, J.Pitman deserves major credit for adding another quality urban hotel project to the mix and bringing in mixed-uses a la hotel. Everyone else should probably be thrown under the bus, starting with Avis Scaramucci, who is a slum lord (Rock Island Plow Building). It's time that she stop getting a pass for owning Bricktown's biggest eyesore, which isn't even in compliance with city code. If I were the city I'd look into seeing how we could retroactively fine her for however long she has owned that building and it has been out of compliance with city code.

Nothing says upscale and safe like a food truck.

Touche, I hate it when young people make a cool and happening street scene.

But on a serious note, I think we need to accept that it's 2012. Food trucks have evolved. They have become yuppiefied. Not all food trucks are made equal. There is a market, evidently, for "upscale" downscale - that is where food trucks come in.

We have a gun-oriented culture, especially where young males are concerned. Anywhere you have a bunch of young men gathered, especially if alcohol and/or drugs are available, this is going to happen from time to time. Before people were carrying guns regularly, there were fist fights at bars. We're going to have to accept the fact that guns have replaced fists for some people, as instruments of aggression.
IMO, we have a thug culture and they are the problem. Get a bunch of guys swigging beer, wearing cowboy boots, jeans and hats, with guns in their pockets and chances are they have concealed carries and wouldn't dream of shooting in public because that is just so uncool. We don't see this group pulling out their guns and having gun fights in the bars. There is a huge difference between lawful gun owners - who are by far the largest group in the "gun culture" vs. thugs who use guns to intimidate and overpower. You can't even compare the two. No one is more disgusted at lawless behavior than legitimate gun owners - many of whom have their guns with them most of the time.

It's funny to me that hiding around every curve or under every other overpass is a cop waiting to give you a speeding ticket, But we can't take our family to bricktown without the fear of being shot or mugged. When you let the thugs take over like they have because of the lack of police that patrol the area then we all lose. As taxpayers we spent all this money on something that is slowly being taken away by a bunch of wild animals!!!!

Why even bother expending valuable public resources to heightened police presence in Bricktown when that district is more than happy to operate several venues that cater to those thugs.

Just take your family to Midtown instead until Bricktown can be cleaned up, or even better, NW9 is pretty unique. What's funny is this cleavage happened over time as Bricktown deliberately kept out twenty-something attractions to maintain their "family friendly" reputation, for example they balked at a bunch of young white guys doing a charity crawl in the middle of the day. It turns out that the twenty-something crowds are a lot better at self-policing and keeping out the riff-raff than the "family friendly" pandering is.

IMO, we have a thug culture and they are the problem. Get a bunch of guys swigging beer, wearing cowboy boots, jeans and hats, with guns in their pockets and chances are they have concealed carries and wouldn't dream of shooting in public because that is just so uncool. We don't see this group pulling out their guns and having gun fights in the bars. There is a huge difference between lawful gun owners - who are by far the largest group in the "gun culture" vs. thugs who use guns to intimidate and overpower. You can't even compare the two. No one is more disgusted at lawless behavior than legitimate gun owners - many of whom have their guns with them most of the time.

There are shootings all the time in redneck bars. This image of "lawful" rowdy drunks in cowboy bars acting like pacifists doesn't match reality.

Which venues are catering to under 21 year old pistol packing low impulse controlling babydults?

Correct me if.I am in error, but shooting locations in BT are sort of spread out over various streets, p-lots and outside closed businesses that are not primarily club/bar.

Actually a lot of violence has been linked to ROK Bar in particular.

I stopped going to Bricktown a couple years ago because of the people. After dark it is a strange combination of drunk cowboys that like to scream out obscenities and/or racial slurs, gangstas with guns, a specific element of the college scene that likes to emulate the Jersey Shore, and annoying high school kids who like to start fights. I've never seen anything quite like it before. It's like a nexus of all that is wrong in this world.

I stopped going to Bricktown a couple years ago because of the people. After dark it is a strange combination of drunk cowboys that like to scream out obscenities and/or racial slurs, gangstas with guns, a specific element of the college scene that likes to emulate the Jersey Shore, and annoying high school kids who like to start fights. I've never seen anything quite like it before. It's like a nexus of all that is wrong in this world.

The scary thing is that there are hotels..

Actually a lot of violence has been linked to ROK Bar in particular.

True, but Garin referenced BT thugs and the concern of being shot or mugged by those thugs. The Rok crowd, so far as I know anyway, are more prone to head bash others from the Rok more often than they are to go on the prowl after others, and are not the source of the BT shootings, recent or less recent.

The recent firearm incidents, and the ones I recall in the less recent past, don't seem tied to any specific venue, largely because many times the shooters don't age qualify to enter most adult only BT venues.

I may be dead bang wrong, but curfew enforcement, as contrasted to mistakenly hassle youth enforcement, would resolve a lot of late night BT issues and the worst issues are not typically timed earlier than the in place curfew.

I stopped going to Bricktown a couple years ago because of the people. After dark it is a strange combination of drunk cowboys that like to scream out obscenities and/or racial slurs, gangstas with guns, a specific element of the college scene that likes to emulate the Jersey Shore, and annoying high school kids who like to start fights. I've never seen anything quite like it before. It's like a nexus of all that is wrong in this world.

Yes, but they've gone out of their way to make Bricktown "family friendly." So much good that's done. What they have managed to do is run off interesting entertainment venues in lieu of stupid, meatmarket clubs and bars.

There are no interesting ethnic restaurants, scant few nice small stores, nothing "funky" like you would find in a real city. But they do have a lot of Disneyesque attractions catering to the lowest common denominator.

True, but Garin referenced BT thugs and the concern of being shot or mugged by those thugs. The Rok crowd, so far as I know anyway, are more prone to head bash others from the Rok more often than they are to go on the prowl after others, and are not the source of the BT shootings, recent or less recent.

The recent firearm incidents, and the ones I recall in the less recent past, don't seem tied to any specific venue, largely because many times the shooters don't age qualify to enter most adult only BT venues.

I may be dead bang wrong, but curfew enforcement, as contrasted to mistakenly hassle youth enforcement, would resolve a lot of late night BT issues and the worst issues are not typically timed earlier than the in place curfew.

True. And I don't worry about being the victim of such things because the youthful thugs are usually targeting other thugs that they know and are in a dispute with -- not that that makes it much better.

In most cases the fights or gun violence are between people known to each other in some way. I have rarely seen random violence of that type (shootings) happen in these type of areas no matter where I have been. The only "random" violence that I have seen reported is some violence against homosexuals leaving known gay bars, I know a few of those incidents happened in Austin over the almost 9 years that I lived there. Most other reports of entertainments district violence ended up coming out as having some sort of association prior to the incident.

There are shootings all the time in redneck bars. This image of "lawful" rowdy drunks in cowboy bars acting like pacifists doesn't match reality.

Really? I hadn't heard of any. Got any links to back that up? I'd like to educate myself if that is the case.

Get a bunch of guys swigging beer, wearing cowboy boots, jeans and hats, with guns in their pockets and chances are they have concealed carries and wouldn't dream of shooting in public because that is just so uncool. We don't see this group pulling out their guns and having gun fights in the bars. There is a huge difference between lawful gun owners - who are by far the largest group in the "gun culture" vs. thugs who use guns to intimidate and overpower.


As usual you have no earthly idea what you are talking about.


People with guns in bars 'swigging beers'??? - that's a felony!!! - Instant felony with any alcohol AT ALL IN YOUR SYSTEM, let alone being in a BAR even if your not drinking!!!!

I'm a Concealed Carry person and have been for a long time, but for some reason you are romanticizing the idea of some good ol' cowboy in a bar with his buddies drinking while having their concealed carries?!?!?!

WTH is wrong with you?

As usual you have no earthly idea what you are talking about.


People with guns in bars 'swigging beers'??? - that's a felony!!! - Instant felony with any alcohol AT ALL IN YOUR SYSTEM, let alone being in a BAR even if your not drinking!!!!

I'm a Concealed Carry person and have been for a long time, but for some reason you are romanticizing the idea of some good ol' cowboy in a bar with his buddies drinking while having their concealed carries?!?!?!

WTH is wrong with you?

Well, you are correct to point out that you can't drink and use your CC and I'm glad you clarified that. I didn't mean they were carrying in a bar. I meant the same guys who are liable to be out having a good time are just as apt to have enough sense to understand guns/gun safety/gun etiquette and have a CC. I contrasted - not romanticized - the difference between your typical good old boy who might get into a bar fight but isn't going to be ridiculous enough to pull a gun (to do that would just be a major embarassment in the majority gun culture) vs. the thugs who are liable to shoot indiscriminately up and down the street and have no frickin' clue that "real" men don't use a gun to do their talking and fighting. I have a CC and enjoy a drink in the bar like everyone else. I certainly didn't mean I would be drinking and carrying - never crossed my mind - which is the difference between most people who have guns and the thugs who think anything goes.

I contrasted - not romanticized - the difference between your typical good old boy .... vs. the thugs who are liable to shoot indiscriminately up and down the street

I am pretty sure I can read between the lines here.

I am pretty sure I can read between the lines here.

I'm pretty sure you do that all the time if the words don't fit what you suspect. Open your eyes and your mind, Spartan, it will be liberating. Or would you prefer to go on another rant about gun laws being to blame?

They are.

But yeah. I'll work on being more open-minded... :doh:

"family friendly." = "stupid, meatmarket clubs and bars"

Haven't understood this one, since the clubs and bars are 21+, right? Where does the "family friendly" come in? maybe as long as all members of the family are of legal age???

On the other hand, there are lots of restaurants, the candy store, the yogurt store, the banjo museum, the Harkins Theatre, Starbucks, the canal and boats, the Bricktown ballpark, the fountains, outdoor music. All of those say "family friendly" to me.

I think the point is that neither the family friendly or trashy nightclub niches are working out too well for Bricktown right now. The district needs to diversify. It needs to stop trying as hard as it can to repel urbanites.

I think the point is that neither the family friendly or trashy nightclub niches are working out too well for Bricktown right now. The district needs to diversify. It needs to stop trying as hard as it can to repel urbanites.

I think the "family friendly" aspect isn't really a detriment as long as it's not all there is(See KC's Plaza). The real problem is the focus on clubs and trendy bars. The crowd they bring is usually pretty rowdy. If there was just one in the area, it probably wouldn't be a big deal. But having multiple of the same sort of establishment can lead to problems. See: 6th street in Austin, Westport in KC, etc. They attract a concentration of Homo Douche Bagimus. This species comes in several varieties, such as the Affliction wearing UFC fan, the gangsta, and the **** kicker with a big hat.

Betts: that is all certainly true. But then again, I have never understood places like theme parks, baseball stadiums, arenas etc that serve beer/alcohol either...all considered "family friendly"...to me anything that requires you to be an adult disqualifies it from that label...would be like them playing X rated movies at Whitewater Bay on their movie nights (do they still do that?)...or Vegas' "family friendly" marketing they tried a while back (having reverted to "what happens in Vegas, Stays in Vegas"/"Sin City").

Betts: that is all certainly true. But then again, I have never understood places like theme parks, baseball stadiums, arenas etc that serve beer/alcohol either...all considered "family friendly"...to me anything that requires you to be an adult disqualifies it from that label...would be like them playing X rated movies at Whitewater Bay on their movie nights (do they still do that?)...or Vegas' "family friendly" marketing they tried a while back (having reverted to "what happens in Vegas, Stays in Vegas"/"Sin City").

Adults can enjoy a frosty adult beverage while Jr. watches the game, or rides the rides. I have beer at my family cookout, does that turn it into an Adults Only event? Beer does not equal hooligans. Beer equals beer. High concentrations of trashy people getting trashed equals hooligans.

Private setting is one thing, public another (esp with paid attendance). But that is just my opinion that it is contrary to the "advertising"