There actually is a direct rail alignment all of the way into the Will Rogers World Airport property on the "Packingtown Lead" operated by Stillwater Central Railroad. It is conceivable that regular rail service is practical at a reasonably 'low cost' using a diesel-electric train unit. This could traverse the Packingtown Lead and connect to Will Roger's terminal through a rail extension. The lead currently does have a tie-in at the BNSF tracks in Capitol Hill. The train then could go elevated via the existing grade change and stop directly at Santa Fe Station.

Barriers to making this happen include negotiating operating agreements with Stillwater Central Railroad and Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railroad. Mixing passengers with freight service would also require Positive Train Control.

Opportunities include stops in Capitol Hill and Stockyards.


My gut tells me though that Light Rail would be preferable. It is possible that a line could be built that extends the streetcar through the Wheeler District or the Farmer's Market. It could then quite possibly share a expanded Right-of-Way with the Packingtown lead until it gets to Will Rogers. Using the streetcar system in "rapid mode" would enable it to operate more like Light Rail. It could still stop in The Stockyards. If we had the money, to me, this would be a worthwhile MAPS type investment. Typically cities do not receive Federal matching grants for airport connections. It makes sense for the city itself to cover such an initiative in its own capacity if costs are manageable.

I would vote for either version of this on a MAPS ballot that did not include projects in the innovation district.

Streetcar would operate like Light Rail and be separated by grade once it got out of the core- thus "Rapid Streetcar".
What is the difference between light rail and rapid street car? It just turns into street car once it's in the core?

What is the difference between light rail and rapid street car? It just turns into street car once it's in the core?

A streetcar is a form of light rail. "Rapid streetcar" becomes more like conventional Light Rail that most people are familiar with when the rails are separated from traffic in their own right-of-way. Stops are further apart and speeds are higher than when operating on city streets.

Conventional Light Rail vehicles in most cities also typically involve bigger tram vehicles than urban streetcars and typically more cars connected together. The Sand Diego "trolley" is a great example of conventional "Light Rail" that operates like a streetcar in downtown San Diego but accelerates and goes rapid once out of the city and operates on former railroad alignments. The same vehicle, a Siemens S70, is used as the Atlanta Streetcar.

Hope this helps explain the distinction. My guess is that OKC's cars are adequate in size for trips to the airport. They will hold up to 120 people both standing and sitting. The other factor in a airport line is luggage and the space that it takes up.

A streetcar is a form of light rail. "Rapid streetcar" becomes more like conventional Light Rail that most people are familiar with when the rails are separated from traffic in their own right-of-way. Stops are further apart and speeds are higher than when operating on city streets.

Conventional Light Rail vehicles in most cities also typically involve bigger tram vehicles than urban streetcars and typically more cars connected together. The Sand Diego "trolley" is a great example of conventional "Light Rail" that operates like a streetcar in downtown San Diego but accelerates and goes rapid once out of the city and operates on former railroad alignments. The same vehicle, a Siemens S70, is used as the Atlanta Streetcar.

Hope this helps explain the distinction. My guess is that OKC's cars are adequate in size for trips to the airport. They will hold up to 120 people both standing and sitting. The other factor in a airport line is luggage and the space that it takes up.

What kind of passenger traffic would be required at WRWA to make a line economically feasible?

If we're able to give a few stops along the way that could help. When I rode St Louis' train from the airport no one else got on with me, but many others got on as it got closer to downtown.

Of course a direct rail line you'd want half a dozen stops on the way at least. My point with nonstop was purely for a shuttle bus service. Bus needs to be nonstop for many reasons. A direct rail line won't detour and psychologically is more reliable than a bus line, thus stops won't impact rail ridership where they would impact bus.

A streetcar is a form of light rail. "Rapid streetcar" becomes more like conventional Light Rail that most people are familiar with when the rails are separated from traffic in their own right-of-way. Stops are further apart and speeds are higher than when operating on city streets.

Conventional Light Rail vehicles in most cities also typically involve bigger tram vehicles than urban streetcars and typically more cars connected together. The Sand Diego "trolley" is a great example of conventional "Light Rail" that operates like a streetcar in downtown San Diego but accelerates and goes rapid once out of the city and operates on former railroad alignments. The same vehicle, a Siemens S70, is used as the Atlanta Streetcar.

Hope this helps explain the distinction. My guess is that OKC's cars are adequate in size for trips to the airport. They will hold up to 120 people both standing and sitting. The other factor in a airport line is luggage and the space that it takes up.thank you for the explanation. That makes sense. I am very familiar with San Diego's rail line as I often use it to go to the border and walk into Tijuana. Vert convenient. Will be nice when OKC finally gets a rail line like that.

I doubt we'd get funding for a rail line from OKC to the border.

:-P

I doubt we'd get funding for a rail line from OKC to the border.

:-P
We are building a line and Mexico is going to pay for it. Believe me.

Yes!

What kind of passenger traffic would be required at WRWA to make a line economically feasible?

I think economic feasibility/justification would be derived from development around key stops in places like the Stockyards and/or Wheeler District/Farmer's Market/Capitol Hill.

The highest "Fare Box Return" I have ever seen is 14% towards annual costs. Public transit is like streets, roads, and highways. Very difficult to put a value on. Forms of transit are enabling mechanisms to access places where ideally sales tax revenue is generated in the monetary context.

I think an dedicated airport line creates a grand, new entrance to the city for visitors and enables direct mobility to some underserved areas along the way. Because it does not cross multi city/county lines, it is a completely reasonable project in a future MAPS type initiative. It has to be thoughtfully designed though.

Speed is key.

Agreed on all counts. I really hope we make a good decision regarding this.

Something like this maybe?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/6y5YMV6NvzB1B6yIoBRQavbTOTdkokZFsm1qJ1OBLhTWcAzD3B OF2LgVQOv8NY5-Qj8jUbWrOe3FnBM=w1440-h787-rw

Assuming that the Airport and downtown are the two main drivers of ridership on this route, what would the expected ridership demand be? Of arriving and departing passengers, how many now originate downtown or arrive at airport and are destined immediately for downtown? How many of those are now served by shuttle services now? Do we know the Uber/Lyft/Taxi traffic now to and from? These should be pretty available figures I would think.

Do we know if we lose any stays in downtown because of lack of transport options, or if there is a pent up demand? Has it been quantified?

No, preferably the rail line wouldn't be broken like that image :-P

13386

How is this?

http://www.okctalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13387&d=1483041358

13387

I'd ride it

The airport has no incentive here, in fact the opposite as they make money on parking and taxi / shuttle / Uber fees.

Valid point. Though the airport is a city trust so making money shouldn't be a driver.

The airport has no incentive here, in fact the opposite as they make money on parking and taxi / shuttle / Uber fees.

The airport has the incentive to serve the city. That's what it's there for. So explain every other city in the world that has its airport connected to its light-rail system.

The airport has the incentive to serve the city. That's what it's there for. So explain every other city in the world that has its airport connected to its light-rail system.

I'm not saying it won't happen, just pointing out an important fact.

At most other airports, they are space constrained where at WRWA they could add tons more structured parking within the existing loop.

Assuming that the Airport and downtown are the two main drivers of ridership on this route, what would the expected ridership demand be? Of arriving and departing passengers, how many now originate downtown or arrive at airport and are destined immediately for downtown? How many of those are now served by shuttle services now? Do we know the Uber/Lyft/Taxi traffic now to and from? These should be pretty available figures I would think.

Do we know if we lose any stays in downtown because of lack of transport options, or if there is a pent up demand? Has it been quantified?

My opinions on this are only formed by visiting other cities that have a Light Rail connection to the Airport. In some cases, I have visited cities before and after airport connections were made. That has further amplified my opinions about what I think is a good or bad connection.

I think this is a induced demand situation. Just like building a new highway. The beneficiaries are the developments along the way and potentially visitor perception.

The two defining differences between now and sometime in the relative near future are that you will have a brand new convention center and a more developed Farmer's Market. Any Light Rail Line really needs anchors. The new Convention Center and Hotel Complex and the soon to be expanded Airport makes two awesome anchors. The neighborhoods between benefit.

Regarding the math, I have no idea. But an even bigger question is what would a direct connection to the Convention Center/Hotel/Downtown and the Airport also do for service workers. It seems that the biggest loss by not having a comprehensive transit system in OKC other than health and environment is economic opportunity for those without a car. I think there are huge economic opportunity and access questions that need to be further explored for the entire transit system, both buses and streetcars.

If service started in 15 years, I think it could be viable or at least within a reasonable timeframe of the beginning of operation.

If service starts in 15 years it's 12 years too late. This should have been started yesterday.

Assuming that the Airport and downtown are the two main drivers of ridership on this route, what would the expected ridership demand be? Of arriving and departing passengers, how many now originate downtown or arrive at airport and are destined immediately for downtown? How many of those are now served by shuttle services now? Do we know the Uber/Lyft/Taxi traffic now to and from? These should be pretty available figures I would think.

Do we know if we lose any stays in downtown because of lack of transport options, or if there is a pent up demand? Has it been quantified?

This is the thing right here. If we currently had this type of demand, we'd have an airport/downtown dedicated bus route. We do have conventions today. We have NBA games. We have normal business travel. The fact of it is that OKC remains a place that you can't get around without a car, so they rent one. What do you do once you get downtown? Who wants to hop on something different once they get to the downtown hub? We're talking OKC level of development, not NYC. This takes what is currently at most an hour from hopping on the rental shuttle to arriving at your destination, to twice that. Now passengers are subject to schedules instead of being able to do it whenever they want. And like i said, we aren't going to have NYC level traffic to keep something rotating through as soon as the previous one left like an airport rental shuttle. Plus we are far from having the infrastructure necessary to make it worth it. We have to have the whole enchilada (commuter rail) to make this work. And it has to still be at least as fast as a car, otherwise it's doomed to failure. People ride rail in other cities because they can get somewhere reliably and beat the time it would take if everyone had a car. That means few but fast transfers (when necessary). In those places you can give up your car because you dont need it.....we're never going to be that here.....there's too much sprawl. The best we can hope for is the weekday commuter with a weekend car. I still call that a win....a big one....we have to have the whole thing before any of this is viable.

If service starts in 15 years it's 12 years too late. This should have been started yesterday.

Lol...the first rides on the streetcar are going to barely have started 3 years from now.

Downtown is still a ways away from being a compelling Urban environment, especially on the West-Side of the SF Station. In 15 years, the Cox Site and Ford Site should be developed and I imagine the Stage Center site will be developed as well. In 15 years there will be substantially more activity downtown that can actually then have a rail line to the airport that makes sense.

Or, to put it in better perspective, DFW just got DART rail service what, two years ago?

An airport to downtown rail service is one of those things that the city needs to be planning for. We don't need it right now, I don't think there's that much demand for it yet. But it's one of those obvious things that you need to do at some point.

I like PluPan's map. I think the city needs to make Stockyards City more of a tourist destination.

Right now I think we'd benefit more by running the streetcar to areas that are already developed. Run it down Robinson to 29th, and then over to Western and back up to downtown, something like that. Regular passenger service to an area with people will benefit the city quite a bit. It will improve the neighborhoods it serves and the people who live here. We shouldn't just bend over backwards for people flying in for conventions. Serving the people of the city should take first priority.

If service started in 15 years, I think it could be viable or at least within a reasonable timeframe of the beginning of operation.

If OKC growth rates continue at a similar pace I would say 15-20 years would be about right. If opened today I can't see ridership being nearly enough to make a line justifiable. For comparison purposes, the new line to the airport here in Denver has about 15-17k riders per day, and that is for one of the busiest airports and convention centers in the country. I think numbers will increase as more development (which is really one of the primary benefits) occurs along the line, but it will take many, many years for the line ever to be more than simply a selling point for the city and a way for airport workers to get back and forth.

One thing to take into consideration is that the Mike Monroney Center (FAA) has in excess of 4,000 employees. (at least in 1985 they did, probably more now)

Now if there is a way to connect the two.

If OKC growth rates continue at a similar pace I would say 15-20 years would be about right. If opened today I can't see ridership being nearly enough to make a line justifiable. For comparison purposes, the new line to the airport here in Denver has about 15-17k riders per day, and that is for one of the busiest airports and convention centers in the country. I think numbers will increase as more development (which is really one of the primary benefits) occurs along the line, but it will take many, many years for the line ever to be more than simply a selling point for the city and a way for airport workers to get back and forth.

Comparison to Denver is not very good. Denver's airport is in the middle of nowhere, and as a result there is no ridership to 56th or 40th to help the line. The ridiculous fare ($9) each way is also cost prohibitive for many and reduces ridership. That's why I don't take that train to work everyday -- It is simply way, way cheaper to drive. Denver also uses a commuter rail train and not a streetcar/light rail. Portland has great ridership on their airport line because it also connects to a large shopping center right next to the airport. Denver doesn't have anything comparable to that. Given that WRWA is for the most part still within the city and close to several neighborhoods and several focus points are between downtown and the airport, I could see it having justifiable ridership. Also with SH-152 (Airport Rd.) where it is, an intersection of the Airport Line and SH-152 would be a great place to build a Mustang Park-N-Ride. For workers who work downtown, but live in the western metro, they can park at the PNR right off of 152 and avoid the ever growing morning traffic jam that is I-44 NB.

Too bad the airport decided to use the I-240/I-44 area for their shopping center. It would have been much better located in all of the property they own north of 54th street between Airport Rd. A shopping area there would be right on the future "airport rail line", close to the Meridian Ave Hotels, and a convenient exit off of SH-152 to capture Mustang shoppers. Would have been good to have the eastern-most property still available for aviation usage.

One thing to take into consideration is that the Mike Monroney Center (FAA) has in excess of 4,000 employees. (at least in 1985 they did, probably more now)

Now if there is a way to connect the two.

How many do you think live downtown or within blocks of a line that connects the two?

Now, if the line went west on I-40 out to the shopping areas, with a line south on Meridian along the hotel corridor, then it might have traction now and induce development out by the airport. Any big commercial development out there might actually attract additional business from Mustang area.

The problem with Meridian is speed.

Now, if the line went west on I-40 out to the shopping areas, with a line south on Meridian along the hotel corridor, then it might have traction now and induce development out by the airport. Any big commercial development out there might actually attract additional business from Mustang area.

This is what I was thinking. From Hudson and Sheridan, go west through Film Row to Classen, then use Classen to jog down to Reno. From there, go west through the Farmer's Market, past the Fairgrounds, to Meridian, then turn south through the Meridian Hospitality Corridor, and go all the way in to the airport. This allows the line to serve multiple purposes, helping to ensure ridership; being able to just get from the airport to the hotels along Meridian would be a huge boon in and of itself, along with connecting those hotels into the fairgrounds and downtown area. Construction along Reno would be less likely to disrupt the flow of traffic, as the streetcar could use the wide median from Penn all the way to Meridian. The only drawbacks to this idea would be that timing would need to be carefully considered to ensure the end-to-end trip doesn't take too long, and there would be two grade crossings with freight railroads (which can be expensive to maintain due to insurance requirements).

One other possibility would be to come down Shields to SW 25th / Commerce, then go west to Walker, jog down to SE 29th and then go west to Newcastle Rd, then turning southwest toward Meridian before entering the airport property. This would avoid all railroad crossings and link in Capitol Hill and all the businesses along 29th, but I don't think as many people would ride that route and the Shields Bridge would probably need some expensive upgrades to support the streetcar's weight.

The problem with Meridian is speed.

How about running from airport down Meridian to SW 15th then east through Stock Yards and down Exchange into downtown? You could pick up the meridian hotel/motel traffic then the cattlemans folks then right on downtown to hotels and such.

ideally I would agree but the problem with all that is the amount of new rail required vs using the mostly existing track suggested by UP

ideally I would agree but the problem with all that is the amount of new rail required vs using the mostly existing track suggested by UP

To run over the existing track, that would have to be commuter rail, like they plan to do from Edmond through OKC to Norman; Light Rail / Modern Streetcar vehicles are not allowed to share the rails with freight rail per the Federal Railroad Administration rules, if my memory serves me correctly. Running commuter rail over this short of a segment would likely not be cost effective, as the line would be quite short between the airport and there's not a lot of opportunities for ridership between the Airport and Santa Fe Station. This would also require an agreement with the owner of the rail, which to my knowledge is BNSF (at least until you get just west of the Airport; Stillwater Central owns the rails from there down to Altus).

Some time ago I put together a map of what I'd like to see from a commuter rail system here in OKC; as this was simply a mental exercise, this map is only an imagination and not what may eventually come to pass. That said, I did imagine a station for Will Rogers on a line that would extend to at least Mustang. That map can be viewed here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1TA3e-L90XlmoR_iHN8gKd3RNp3s&usp=sharing

very good commuter rail plan, but I'd add two stations/stops, both on the Santa Fe/Red Line: 1) at University of Oklahoma and 2) at NE/63rd.

Both are major employer/institution/entertainment/retail areas which would be a draw for the rest of the system. Ignoring these two stops makes a significant blow IMO to the success of the network.

??Maybe?? add a stop in Del City to ensure their buy-in (could be a park n ride tho).

Otherwise, very comprehensive and looks to be rather feasible CR plan. ...

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/santafe030517.jpg

Was there yesterday morning to drop off the boyfriend for a trip to see family... It's kind of absurd that the City is using the north parking lot for paid event parking when the trains are running. The lot was completely full and it made it a real PITA to drop him off. I'd actually wanted to go up to the platform with him and see him off, but it's kind of ridiculous to be forced to pay $10 for the privilege. Is the City going to continue to make this a paid lot even after the renovations are complete? That parking really should be reserved for Amtrak and station operations, in my opinion.

Was there yesterday morning to drop off the boyfriend for a trip to see family... It's kind of absurd that the City is using the north parking lot for paid event parking when the trains are running. The lot was completely full and it made it a real PITA to drop him off. I'd actually wanted to go up to the platform with him and see him off, but it's kind of ridiculous to be forced to pay $10 for the privilege. Is the City going to continue to make this a paid lot even after the renovations are complete? That parking really should be reserved for Amtrak and station operations, in my opinion.

Perhaps the city should make it an hourly lot, like the airport.

Actually, that would work, and probably pretty well. Of course, if the full master plan gets built out, parking wouldn't be an issue anymore due to the envisioned parking garage on the east side of the BNSF viaduct - but my guess is that's probably a decade away, or more.

There will be an "arrival court" for picking up and dropping off just to the south of the parking lot.

Just not finished yet.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/santafe030617.jpg

Taken today courtesy warreng88.

Looks like they are close to paving that part of EKG.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/santafe041817.jpg

I will be happy to see this area completed. It has looked like a war zone the past few visits to OKC.

I believe they still have to do the west side of EKG.

I don't think this will be finished any time soon.

Yea the west has not been repaved, only dug up in certain spots for utility work. There is patches all over the place, the whole area is a complete mess during rush hour and NBA games.

What is this work for in particular, P180? And will part of it involve laying the streetcar line spur?

I really really REALLY hope we knock this out of the park. It needs to be open all day until 12. A restaurant, a lounge, free WiFi. A shuttle to the greyhound station and the airport. Of course until the greyhound station is somehow incorporated I to the overall scheme of things as our new multimodal transit hub. The underground passageway to the canal can be spruced up and well-lit.

Historic Santa Fe Station nears completion of conversion to multi-modal transportation hub (http://www.okctalk.com/content.php?r=408-Historic-Santa-Fe-Station)

Work is wrapping up on Santa Fe station on the east side of downtown.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/santafe070317j.jpg


Although Amtrak service has continued throughout the extensive renovation, most the building and surrounding area has been off limits to the public during construction.

Representatives from TAP Architecture and the City of Oklahoma City told KFOR's Lacey Lett most of the work will be complete by October at which time a grand re-opening will be scheduled.

However, at that time two major pieces will still remain: the new tunnel to Bricktown and Project 180 street work and landscape on adjacent EK Gaylord Boulevard.

Watch our news partner KFOR-TV tonight 7/31 at 6PM for an on-air story on the Santa Fe Station project.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/santafe070317q.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/santafe070317m.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/santafe070317o.jpg


The City has been working with the railroad to gain the required access to beginning the tunneling process which will result in a new entry plaza on the east end of the Bricktown Canal.

For the first time, pedestrians will be able to use the tunnel to move freely between Bricktown and the station as well as the central business district to the west.

The $28.4 million project had the goals of historic renovation, expansion, providing better connectivity between Bricktown and downtown and to serve as a multi-modal hub for trains, buses, bikes and the new MAPS3 streetcar project.

80% of the building is original with recreations of light fixtures and art work on the ceiling.

Patio seating will face Gaylord and a Spokies bike-share station will be featured as well.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/santafe070317n.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/santafe070317k.jpg


Throughout the work, Pinkitzel Cupcakes and Candy has remained opened at the south end of the complex and new retail and office tenants will be sought as well.

The Project 180 work is almost complete on the east side of the boulevard and focus should shift to the remainder soon.

The station was built in 1934 by the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railway.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/santafe070317c.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/santafe070317g.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/santafe070317p.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/santafe070317e.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/santafe070317h.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/santafe070317d.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/santafe070317z.jpg

It is great to see the new curb location in front of the station.

Will there be a streetcar line that goes in front of the station, along EKG?

Will there be a streetcar line that goes in front of the station, along EKG?

I think as of now plans are for lines that run along both Sheridan and Reno, within 1 block of the station.

https://www.okc.gov/Home/ShowImage?id=7974&t=636241492487200000

^

That is correct.

That exterior could use a power wash.

That exterior could use a power wash.

It has been cleaned.

Between this project and Union Station in Scissortail Park, that goes at least some way to restoring some of the historic OKC architecture and will add a tremendous amount of personality to Downtown. Crazy how underutilized both have been over the years to be so incredible inside and out...

We should seriously take a page out of Fort Worth's book. After taking that Amtrak so many times I've come to appreciate the liveliness of that station. Benches aplenty, restaurants, information desk where you can inquire and get all kinds of cool info concerning fort worth....would be nice if we could ask a city ambassador to man one of the booths and provide information to everyone getting off the train about hot spots, happenings, tidbits of history about the station and OKC in general. Also hope we have a digital route board; something to display streetcar, discovery bus, and greyhound bus arrival/departure information for anyone arriving to our city from Amtrak.

By the way, when the post mentions that buses will be part of the multi-modal transit hub does it mean city buses or greyhound buses? (Secretly hoping for both)

By the way, when the post mentions that buses will be part of the multi-modal transit hub does it mean city buses or greyhound buses? (Secretly hoping for both)

I'm assuming its just Embark right now based on Pete's images. You would need a different kind of parking for a Greyhound bus so loading/unloading could be done safely. Also, the buses would be there more than a couple of minutes, meaning less room for Embark to load/unload.

I'm assuming its just Embark right now based on Pete's images. You would need a different kind of parking for a Greyhound bus so loading/unloading could be done safely. Also, the buses would be there more than a couple of minutes, meaning less room for Embark to load/unload.

Yes, just EMBARK for now.

In some of the conceptual plans, it shows a Greyhound / long distance bus terminal on the vacant lot next to the UHaul building. But that was just an idea.