really so you think the traffic is worse on Broadway extension at its current 3 lanes on each side then it would be at 2 lanes on each side or 1 lane each direction??

lindsay in norman is one of the worst roads in the entire metro for traffic/wrecks and flooding .. and it will be much better on all 3 counts ..


is your point of view that no road should ever be expanded for any reason???

No one said anything about not fixing flooding. A city functions much better with a good grid of two-way streets (with one lane in each direction) and boulevards. Lindsey will not be either of those. However, I have time so am content to wait and watch this project NOT deliver. Sure, it will be great for the first year or two - then the traffic will come and in 5 years traffic will be just as bad as it is right now. Just look at the very same people in this thread complaining about traffic on I-35 (in another thread) AFTER it was 'fixed' (widened) a few years ago.

Maybe we should go ahead and define success now. How much should accidents decline, how much travel time should be saved, and how much should traffic counts go up to be considered a success?

No one said anything about not fixing flooding. A city functions much better with a good grid of two-way streets (with one lane in each direction) and boulevards. Lindsey will not be either of those. However, I have time so am content to wait and watch this project NOT deliver. Sure, it will be great for the first year or two - then the traffic will come and in 5 years traffic will be just as bad as it is right now. Just look at the very same people in this thread complaining about traffic on I-35 (in another thread) AFTER it was 'fixed' (widened) a few years ago.

Maybe we should go ahead and define success now. How much should accidents decline, how much travel time should be saved, and how much should traffic counts go up to be considered a success?

I35 for 60 min a day is apples and oranges with Lindsay that is horrible 15 hours a day ..

why will this road once 4 lanes not be like every other 4 lanes road in norman??


and i will ask again In your opinion should any road ever be expanded??

http://www.progressnorman.com/projects/

Norman has its chance to start chipping a way at some transportation needs in an upcoming Bond Issue. Nothing comes without its challenges, but the long discussed 5-laning of Lindsey Street will finally get a chance. Although there may be other needs that some feel more important, I think its important to vote yes to the chances we get. If this fails, it solves nothing and then creates doubt and apathy for anything else we would like to see on future bond issues. Let's face it, the bond rates are at lows and the city has a chance to do something that was needed 20+ years ago. Let's push this through so other projects can be addressed on the next one.

August 28th is the vote (http://www.normanok.gov/sites/default/files/WebFM/Norman/City%20Manager/Transporation%20Special%20Election.pdf).


I agree… Vote yes

If Norman wants too be looked at as a serious player for high end job relocations then problems like this bond issue address needs to be passed. It’s a very competitive world and if we want to play in the big boy arena we must build what is necessary to stay competitive. Decade’s old and out of date streets and highways are a big deterrent.

The Lindsey street should have been 5 landed when at the same time I -35 was first built…. so we are left playing catch up. It’s not too soon to start thinking about what projects should come after this bond package. When it would benefit thousands of people every day and improve safety for many more, 4 or 5-laning Lindsey Street all the way to OU’s campus should be a top priority in the next Norman bond package.

4 or 5-laning Lindsey Street all the way to OU’s campus should be a top priority in the next Norman bond package.

Berry is far enough. You are getting into the realm of removing houses when you try to go all the way. Not going to happen.

I35 for 60 min a day is apples and oranges with Lindsay that is horrible 15 hours a day ..

why will this road once 4 lanes not be like every other 4 lanes road in norman??


and i will ask again In your opinion should any road ever be expanded??

I wouldn't spend another dime widening roads in Norman. However, I would convert Main St and Gray back to two-way, put in traffic circles at Flood, University, and Porter, fix the flooding, and start spending the money on mass transit; one route from Norman Regional to OU and a second route down Main St to the Sooner Mall area. They would connect at a downtown train station with regional service to OKC and Amtrak.

Berry is far enough. You are getting into the realm of removing houses when you try to go all the way. Not going to happen.
If the new right of way is taken from the north side of the street there are only a few mostly dumpy houses on the north side street that would to be moved. It’s a very doable project that would reduce safety issues and befitted many thousands of people every day. It would help decongest this part of Norman.

Over the next 10 to 20 years it would be smart if the city could buy up property on the north side of Lindsey Street as it naturally becomes available for sale

I wouldn't spend another dime widening roads in Norman. However, I would convert Main St and Gray back to two-way, put in traffic circles at Flood, University, and Porter, fix the flooding, and start spending the money on mass transit; one route from Norman Regional to OU and a second route down Main St to the Sooner Mall area. They would connect at a downtown train station with regional service to OKC and Amtrak.


With all due respect about 90% of this^ is fairy land stuff.
Other than maybe commuter rail it would never help 99% of the Norman population.
Cars and Trucks are not going away. A higher quality of life says we need modern day streets and highways in our area.

According to city of Norman Transportation officials that I have spoken with there will be an OU train/ bus station located near OU’s duck pond and that Amtrak’s train station will eventually be moved to this location.

With Norman’s highest population density located within walking distance and with OU being Norman largest destination by far this location makes the most sense for the community. There will also be a commuter rail park and ride station on the north side of Norman.

Cars and Trucks are not going away. A higher quality of life says we need modern day streets and highways in our area.

Did I suggest closing any existing roads? It is really pretty simple. In the last 80 years how many lane-miles of roads has the City of Norman built, and how many times have they been repaved? How many rail-miles has the City of Norman built in the last 80 years? How about walkable sidewalk miles over the last 80 years (any of that done in the last 50)?

Norman has used 99.999% of its transportation spending on roads, and what do they have to show for it, a city of 100,000 where every person over the age of 18 has to own a car to be a fully functional adult and traffic congestion. Then people complain that the number one private industry in Norman is car dealers. Well no duh, everyone has to have one.

Did I suggest closing any existing roads? It is really pretty simple. In the last 80 years how many lane-miles of roads has the City of Norman built, and how many times have they been repaved? How many rail-miles has the City of Norman built in the last 80 years? How about walkable sidewalk miles over the last 80 years (any of that done in the last 50)?

Norman has used 99.999% of its transportation spending on roads, and what do they have to show for it, a city of 100,000 where every person over the age of 18 has to own a car to be a fully functional adult and traffic congestion. Then people complain that the number one private industry in Norman is car dealers. Well no duh, everyone has to have one.

What you have been suggesting here and elsewhere is almost totally impractical and just isn’t going to happen.

In recent years the city has spent a great deal of money on wide concrete trails. I hardly ever see anyone on them…. In the meantime many of the sidewalks that are actually used a lot are in areas surrounding OU. In many cases they are old and in a state of serious disrepair. In fact some are dangerous!

There are dozens of miles of poorly designed residential streets that need to be rebuilt and brought to modern day drainage standards. Most desire a high quality suburban life style and the freedom that a vehicle brings.

There has been a powerful anti-growth faction in Norman who has held too much influence in the decision making process. When combined with mostly weak minded leaders over a long period of time who have often stoped at the first sign of opposition the list of
needed projects in Norman is very lengthy.

It is funny that you associate the automobile dependency with quality of life when it seems to be the exact opposite in reality. Places that don't need cars are consistantly ranked as best places to live. I seldom hear of sidewalk rage.

I would choose a car over light rail or HSR any day.

I would choose a car over light rail or HSR any day.

If trips were frequent and convenient I would have no problem doing light rail or a local street car service. True HSR would be great, but just isn't going to happen here.

If trips were frequent and convenient I would have no problem doing light rail or a local street car service. True HSR would be great, but just isn't going to happen here.

not until okc/dallas has the population density of new york philly new jersey ect

Where would you go on HSR? A commuter train between OKC and Norman would easily make most of the trip at 80 mph.

Where would you go on HSR? A commuter train between OKC and Norman would easily make most of the trip at 80 mph.

highly unlikely

A commuter train between OKC and Norman would easily make most of the trip at 80 mph.

It’s about 35 miles from Fort Worth to Dallas on their TRE. It takes about an hour to make the trip.

Unless we do something different that’s probably fairly close to the average speed we could expect with commuter rail system in our area. I would like to see a higher average speed because it’s going to be a lot faster to drive than taking a train going at those speeds.

It’s about 35 miles from Fort Worth to Dallas on their TRE. It takes about an hour to make the trip.

Unless we do something different that’s probably fairly close to the average speed we could expect with commuter rail system in our area. I would like to see a higher average speed because it’s going to be a lot faster to drive than taking a train going at those speeds.

Downtown Norman to downtown OKC is 18 miles via the exiting tracks. So 35/60 = 18/X; X = 31 minutes from Norman to OKC. TRE also makes 8 stops on the way. At most OKC to Norman would have 2 stops so even the 31 minute number is high.

I can't speak for Ft Worth, but I rode commuter rail in Philly on a regular basis and we topped out at 80 mph.

If trips were frequent and convenient I would have no problem doing light rail or a local street car service. True HSR would be great, but just isn't going to happen here. Believe me, I would love to see a lighter rail service like Salt Lake City or Portland and possibly an even more extensive LRS those cities have. Also, I agree with ou48A that a car does bring freedom and I just wouldn't feel that same sense riding a train everyday as I would a car. But I still would love to see a LRS running from the airport to Downtown, Edmond, Norman, MWC and possibly Yukon.

Believe me, I would love to see a lighter rail service like Salt Lake City or Portland and possibly an even more extensive LRS those cities have. Also, I agree with ou48A that a car does bring freedom and I just wouldn't feel that same sense riding a train everyday as I would a car. But I still would love to see a LRS running from the airport to Downtown, Edmond, Norman, MWC and possibly Yukon.

I personally would love to see WRWA as the main hub for a rail network in Oklahoma. A true (as much as we can here in Oklahoma) intermodal facility. Of course I would be a bit biased, but it would make it better for me to just take the train to and from work every day. Plus the airport already has the parking facilities that can be expanded.

Believe me, I would love to see a lighter rail service like Salt Lake City or Portland and possibly an even more extensive LRS those cities have. Also, I agree with ou48A that a car does bring freedom and I just wouldn't feel that same sense riding a train everyday as I would a car. But I still would love to see a LRS running from the airport to Downtown, Edmond, Norman, MWC and possibly Yukon.

You should trying riding a train on a regular basis before saying it doesn't provide freedom. Honestly, you don't know freedom until you aren't dependent on a car.

You should trying riding a train on a regular basis before saying it doesn't provide freedom. Honestly, you don't know freedom until you aren't dependent on a car.


This! +1.

Those of us who actually live in Norman may have received a pamphlet about this bond package from the city today.
Among other things they wrote the following about Lindsey Street.

Why is the West Lindsey Street Project included in this Bond program?

The West Lindsey street corridor between Interstate 35 and Berry Road is the

NUMBER #1 traffic congested corridor in the Oklahoma City metropolitan area;

It has one of the highest traffic accident rates in Norman and includes one of the more significant storm water problems in Norman. In addition, the Oklahoma Department of Transportation has scheduled the widening of I-35 and the replacement of the I-35 / Lindsey Street interchange in 2016, so the timing is ideal to extend the improvements east of the interstate.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


As reasonable people can see congestion on west Lindsey Street is horrible.

Lindsey Street is even more congested east of Berry Road toward campus to ASP Ave.
This is why this stretch of Lindsey Street must also be widened to 4/5 lanes.

As reasonable people can see congestion on west Lindsey Street is horrible.

Lindsey Street is even more congested east of Berry Road toward campus to ASP Ave.
This is why this stretch of Lindsey Street must also be widened to 4/5 lanes.

Never going to happen. I would say the addition of a central turning lane is about as good as it will get. Or why not improvise?

Add a center lane with but have it reverse direction during peak hours. When traffic is greatest going to campus, it it 2 lanes East, 1 lane West. When it is the end of the day and most are leaving campus, then it is reversed. The center lane can be added pretty easily with the room available.

I think Berry West to 35 on Lindsey is a good first step. Trouble is ... much of the balance of the package leaves me rather cold. Decisions, decisions.

I think Berry West to 35 on Lindsey is a good first step. Trouble is ... much of the balance of the package leaves me rather cold. Decisions, decisions.

I like the part that includes 24th from Robinson to Lindsey as it is a main artery through that area and is nearly completely developed. The 4 lanes to 2 lanes to 4 to 2 back to 4 isn't the safest setup. Not to mention the intersection at Robinson is terrible.

Never going to happen. I would say the addition of a central turning lane is about as good as it will get. Or why not improvise?

Add a center lane with but have it reverse direction during peak hours. When traffic is greatest going to campus, it it 2 lanes East, 1 lane West. When it is the end of the day and most are leaving campus, then it is reversed. The center lane can be added pretty easily with the room available.

Even though it’s needed, it may not be 4/5 lanes in my life time, but I think we could see something like you what you suggest in another 10 years or so.

I like the idea of a 3 lane reverse direction street during peak hours.

I think the reverse lane idea would do wonders for traffic in that area with minimal impact to the neighborhood. During non-peak hours it can operate as just a typical center turning lane.

Now if we could just get them to build a Hwy 9 overpass of 24th SW and get rid of that traffic light.

... Add a center lane with but have it reverse direction during peak hours. When traffic is greatest going to campus, it it 2 lanes East, 1 lane West. When it is the end of the day and most are leaving campus, then it is reversed. The center lane can be added pretty easily with the room available.

It is one thing to alter traffic flow direction a couple of Saturdays out of the year (do they still do that? I avoid the area on game days.)

But to suggest it happen daily ... you have far greater confidence in the comprehension skills of many drivers in Norman than I can muster up. We have numerous folks who don't adapt well to change, even long term change. Start switching it up every day on a stretch of road, and oh, mama.

It is one thing to alter traffic flow direction a couple of Saturdays out of the year (do they still do that? I avoid the area on game days.)

But to suggest it happen daily ... you have far greater confidence in the comprehension skills of many drivers in Norman than I can muster up. We have numerous folks who don't adapt well to change, even long term change. Start switching it up every day on a stretch of road, and oh, mama.

Yes Lindsey still goes completely one way during game days.

I guess it just takes getting use to reversible lanes. Many large cities have them on interstates to assist with rush hour traffic. The bridge and tunnel between Detroit and Windsor also uses them (if I remember correctly). It isn't too hard of a concept to understand. No more confusing than the flashing yellow turn singles going in now. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_lane

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/Lions_Gate.jpg/450px-Lions_Gate.jpg

It is one thing to alter traffic flow direction a couple of Saturdays out of the year (do they still do that? I avoid the area on game days.)

But to suggest it happen daily ... you have far greater confidence in the comprehension skills of many drivers in Norman than I can muster up. We have numerous folks who don't adapt well to change, even long term change. Start switching it up every day on a stretch of road, and oh, mama.

There is or was a street in Wichita KS that used the reversible street concept for several decades.
Consider it a learning experience for drivers.
:)

Never going to happen. I would say the addition of a central turning lane is about as good as it will get. Or why not improvise?

Add a center lane with but have it reverse direction during peak hours. When traffic is greatest going to campus, it it 2 lanes East, 1 lane West. When it is the end of the day and most are leaving campus, then it is reversed. The center lane can be added pretty easily with the room available.

Brilliant idea... it isn't that difficult either... just add the red x's/green arrows above the road and keep it moving.

You should trying riding a train on a regular basis before saying it doesn't provide freedom. Honestly, you don't know freedom until you aren't dependent on a car.Buddy our ideas of freedom are completely different then

Buddy our ideas of freedom are completely different then


There are many very good reasons why many people don’t like living stacked one on top of another. The car has liberated and given hundreds of millions higher levels of personal freedom and increased their quality of life by many, many times.

Having said that, when and where congestion justifies it… I am all for commuter rail and light rail options…. but they hardly represents a solution to all our transportation problems.

In a prosperous society the car will remain the dominate form of transportation for a strong majority of people for the foreseeable future in the USA. The only real question is what fuel will they use?

You should trying riding a train on a regular basis before saying it doesn't provide freedom. Honestly, you don't know freedom until you aren't dependent on a car.

This is the crux of the debate - is it really freedom if you are absolutely dependent on ownership of an automobile to work, shop, play, or any other activity? I would like the choice of mass transit or car as needed. As a person that hates waste, I am appalled as I drive alone in my car to/from work every day. I plan to eventually move within walking distance of my employer, or insure there is a mass transit choice available. I think the streetcar has the potential to be even more transformative of how OKC citizens live, work, and play than we think possible presently.

This is the crux of the debate - is it really freedom if you are absolutely dependent on ownership of an automobile to work, shop, play, or any other activity? I would like the choice of mass transit or car as needed.

It sucks that freedom cost me over $10,000 per year. That is 2,000 trips on SEPTA.

I traveled across this bridge about 15 times in the last month. Let me tell you, it not only is brilliant, but it works. Sure, there is still congestion, but math is math. There are simply fewer cars and frankly less disruptive from a long-distance commute perspective going one direction at any time. It makes sense.

That is also done on the Golden Gate Bridge. It is a six lane bridge and during peak traffic hours it becomes four lanes in one direction and two in the other direction.