I hope they are re-workig that entire abomination they threw out there the first time.

You guys are so antsy over these things. Relax, this project is moving forward, not backward. It's funding is in the current GO bond package.

Kerry, how is that design an abomination? I imagine it should be updated now that the city hopes to make private development out of the old jail. I liked the modern minimalist look proposed originally. The original justice block, which we're still mostly working with, has a very cool 1940s vibe, that I think should be played up in the modern redesign.

The Civic area is all Art Deco. They need to stick with it. Historic replication should be a top priority when designing new buildings in this area. Ideally a person walking through this area shouldn't be able to tell in which decade the buildings were constructed just by looking at the architectural style.

The Civic area is all Art Deco. They need to stick with it. Historic replication should be a top priority when designing new buildings in this area. Ideally a person walking through this area shouldn't be able to tell in which decade the buildings were constructed just by looking at the architectural style.

You're absolutely correct, Kerry. It's just like some of the new construction on the OU campus which is in the same style as the much older historical buildings.

You're absolutely correct, Kerry. It's just like some of the new construction on the OU campus which is in the same style as the much older historical buildings.

Bad example, but this is Oklahoma City, they have such low standards, I doubt we will ever see an architect try to blend their building with the surrounding district.

The Civic area is all Art Deco. They need to stick with it. Historic replication should be a top priority when designing new buildings in this area. Ideally a person walking through this area shouldn't be able to tell in which decade the buildings were constructed just by looking at the architectural style.

The justice area is different from the civic area. Police and historic jail are more mid-century than deco.

The justice area is different from the civic area. Police and historic jail are more mid-century than deco.

That is because previous architects screwed up. We shouldn't make new errors just becasue someone made a previous error (see elevated freeways).

But then we're getting away from this area's original style, which is just a few years past deco. I agree that something directly reflecting the architectural motif of the old Police HQ and old City Jail should be built.

Now that you agree historic replication is important in defining an area (as opposed to just laying random line on a street map) I guess we can discuss which history should be replicated in new construction. Most buildings constructed in this area are Art-Deco, I say they stick with that.

JTF, you might be surprised that "historic replication" is actually frowned upon by most in the historic preservation community. The term for it is "creating a false history." Even a brick-by-brick reconstruction of a previously-demolished historic building is usually not looked kindly on.

It is absolutely possible for modern architecture to be done in a "district sensitive" way that respects the surroundings and maintains the same feel, without creating an inaccurate representation of the historical fabric. This usually involves maintaining the same setbacks and scale, paying attention to window openings and maintaining a similar rhythm, and even using similar materials. But trying to build a building that is indistinguishable from its neighbors and faking a time period is just that; fakery. Good architecture is authentic.

The problem is that in most cases respecting the surrounding district is not even considered, and the modern architecture clashes with the historic. This is why you, me, and most who value the built environment have a visceral reaction when we see a new building carelessly plopped among the old.

...which is not the case with this project.

JTF, you might be surprised that "historic replication" is actually frowned upon by most in the historic preservation community. The term for it is "creating a false history." Even a brick-by-brick reconstruction of a previously-demolished historic building is usually not looked kindly on.

It is absolutely possible for modern architecture to be done in a "district sensitive" way that respects the surroundings and maintains the same feel, without creating an inaccurate representation of the historical fabric. This usually involves maintaining the same setbacks and scale, paying attention to window openings and maintaining a similar rhythm, and even using similar materials. But trying to build a building that is indistinguishable from its neighbors and faking a time period is just that; fakery. Good architecture is authentic.

The problem is that in most cases respecting the surrounding district is not even considered, and the modern architecture clashes with the historic. This is why you, me, and most who value the built environment have a visceral reaction when we see a new building carelessly plopped among the old.

So historic preservationsit are saying Victorian London shouldn't exist at all because it is all historic replication of Italy and Greece?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inigo_Jones

How about the great public buildings of Philadelphia built in the early 1900's, should they not exist either because they represent a fake history? This building was constructed in 1927 but I will take this style over that of the Ron Norric library any day; they aren't even in the same class. In 50 years the Free Library will still be classic and the Ron Norric library will look like a steamy pile of 1990's ****.

http://phillyist.com/attachments/philly_jim/library04-18-07.jpg

So the only designs that are worthwhile and lasting are the ancient ones? LOL. Some of us actually like contemporary and some prefer ancient. Imagine that. I agree with Urbanized that there doesn't have to be "same" to be harmonious.

OKC suffers from such a short history that it doesn't really have "districts" of distinct periods. It may have a building or a few clumped together, but nothing that is of enough mass to create a period look...save maybe Paseo. So, even if you want to strictly maintain or expand period areas, you really have to CREATE period areas with lots of fake buildings.

I'm not saying every building OKC has to be the same style - just the public building around the Civic District. Even ODOT, as crappy as they are at design, managed to make the new I-40 bridges Art Deco. Are we now saying they aren't 'real' bridges?

JTF, Neoclassical architecture was a movement in its own right; though it took heavy styling cues from Greek and Roman architecture it wasn't identical. But it is now also a style of the past. Depending upon the circumstances, you almost never would want to erect a new building in that precise style. However if it were integrated into a district it would be entirely appropriate to use elements or styling cues that bring the adjacent styles to mind.

Just because a building is modern doesn't mean it has to look like the Norick Library or some other particular style you may or may not like. The Oklahoma City Museum of Art is a great example of modern architecture blending in with the built environment, taking on a portion of a historic facade, using similar if not identical materials, respecting the historic building it incorporated/replaced, and adding to the fabric without detracting from it.

Well said, Urbanized.

The old police station is now up for sale and it looks like it is a rather massive building...might the OKCPS be able to use it for their Admin???

JTF, Neoclassical architecture was a movement in its own right; though it took heavy styling cues from Greek and Roman architecture it wasn't identical. But it is now also a style of the past. Depending upon the circumstances, you almost never would want to erect a new building in that precise style.

That is because it would be too expensive to do now, however, the new courthouse here in Jax is done in this style (using modern techniques - which means there are columns but they aren't load bearing). Also, the Oklahoma City Museum of Art is not owned by the City. I guess I can't say it enough - I am only talking about city owned building in the Civic District. I'm not advocating the new convention center or downtown school be art deco.

As for the neo-classical style falling out of favor, million of homes in America have columns so someone still likes it. We have 4 columns in our house and none of them hold up anything which means their only purpose is visual appreciation.

Anyhow - I think we beat this one to death enough. I suspect we will end up with something close to what you guys like and further from what I think would be fitting of a public building. Carry on. :)

The old police station is now up for sale and it looks like it is a rather massive building...might the OKCPS be able to use it for their Admin???

Larry, there has been discussion about that here.

http://www.okctalk.com/showwiki.php?title=Old+OKC+Jail+Building&do=comments

I dislike this deep-rooted antipathy for modern development. It's true that a lot of it is worthless crap, but you can't paint it with a broad brush. There is some truly fantastic architecture getting built today for which we will remember the 2000s as a much better, more enlightened period than the few decades before. This is a decade of transition away from the 60s-90s Dallas-style development and instead toward sustainability, preservation, revitalization, etc.

Just did business with one of the higher ups in the OKCPD. The new headquarters is his project and he said they're to break ground on it in June or July (read through previous posts and didn't see this info) of this year. I asked him if renderings were available--not knowing at the time that they were already on here--and so I emailed ADG to see if anything has changed between the original renderings and now. The officer was very excited so it'll be interesting to see something other than art deco style architecture go up in the old CRI&P right-of-way.

Just did business with one of the higher ups in the OKCPD. The new headquarters is his project and he said they're to break ground on it in June or July (read through previous posts and didn't see this info) of this year. I asked him if renderings were available--not knowing at the time that they were already on here--and so I emailed ADG to see if anything has changed between the original renderings and now. The officer was very excited so it'll be interesting to see something other than art deco style architecture go up in the old CRI&P right-of-way.

Are you saying the rendering you saw was different than the rendering in this thread? Or that they were the same?

No...just saying that I didn't know if the renderings presented to us earlier that are currently on this thread are the final ones & it seems as if they are. I never saw any other renderings.

That's interesting, if correct.

That's interesting, if correct.

Why is it interesting?

Yeah, not understanding why that's interesting either. He stated he didn't know if he saw the same renderings as we already have or not.

I'm pretty sure that there are no new renderings. Was kinda thinking out loud on that initial post that stirred up catch22's reply. And, of course, I ended up e-mailing ADG out of Wisconsin, thinking they were associated with the ADG in OKC--they are not, so I'm back to square zero, lol.

An engineering/architecural firm is working on plans to be shown to the City Council in the near future.

Well, considering that my police guy said ground was being broken in June/July, what is 'near future' in your opinion? April??

On the 3/21/13 Downtown Design Review Committee agenda:


Presentation by Scott Dedmon and Steve Matthews, ADG, on the future submittal for construction of the new OKC Police Headquarters facilities.


Looks like this project is moving forward.

Now, a formal application has been filed for the new police HQ with the Downtown Design Review Committee.

Will upload details once they are available, but this project is definitely moving ahead.

Yay!

An update by Steve on this project and the surrounding area.

Projects seen as potential catalysts to redeveloping Oklahoma City's downtown fringe | News OK (http://newsok.com/projects-seen-as-potential-catalysts-to-redeveloping-oklahoma-citys-downtown-fringe/article/3768276)

Likewise, Dedmon said, the new court and police headquarters also feature a larger setback from the street than typical for downtown construction, which also addresses security concerns.



Well.

Anyone have images of the plans?

The building renderings that were originally posted here looked nothing like what's already there. I don't have high hopes that what's now proposed looks any closer to the Civic Center buildings.

Renderings from ADG that were featured in the print version of the Oklahoman:


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/police1.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/police2.jpg

I like that look. Modern day yet still fitting for the area. Would like to see some more drawings though of the layout.

I like the look. Due to the cost of limestone there was NO WAY it would look even remotely like the Civic Center.

Likewise, Dedmon said, the new court and police headquarters also feature a larger setback from the street than typical for downtown construction, which also addresses security concerns.
Setback doesn't look terrible (certainly could have been worse). Looks like it abuts the sidewalk which abuts the angled parking spaces...and part of the building angles off...all of that combined, is that what they mean by the larger setback??

Setback doesn't look terrible (certainly could have been worse). Looks like it abuts the sidewalk which abuts the angled parking spaces...and part of the building angles off...all of that combined, is that what they mean by the larger setback??

I was thinking the same thing Larry. As long as the sidewalk is wide it appears okay. In many urban places the sidewalk is up to 20 feet wide. As for the 'security concerns", what a load of BS. Whoever at the city is on that kick needs to get off of it. The new Edmond police department is going to be built right to the street. I guess maybe Edmond isn't concerned about safety or something.

Well, if someone wanted to make a statement Im sure they'd pick OKC as opposed to Edmond since OKC is the major city (big prominent buildings).

Personally, I like it but wish there could be a few more floors added since it is police HQ AND Municipal Court.

Well, if someone wanted to make a statement Im sure they'd pick OKC as opposed to Edmond since OKC is the major city (big prominent buildings).

Personally, I like it but wish there could be a few more floors added since it is police HQ AND Municipal Court.

They are separate buildings on different blocks

Well, if someone wanted to make a statement Im sure they'd pick OKC as opposed to Edmond since OKC is the major city (big prominent buildings).

Personally, I like it but wish there could be a few more floors added since it is police HQ AND Municipal Court.

If they were comingled I am sure that would be the case. As they are seperate there is no legitimate justification for multi stories beyond what is presented.

i didn't see two buildings in the renderings, so I assume one.

pretty good renderings of the new police HQ in next weeks DDR meeting .. item 6B

More to follow:


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/police1a.jpg


This is an old site plan but it does show how this building would be situated:


http://www.okctalk.com/images/wikiphotos/newpolice1.jpg

Now I understand the prior comments about the setback...wasn't as obvious in other renderings

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/police1b.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/police1c.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/police1d.jpg

Can we swap with the new Edmond police headquarters?

Large setbacks may be a necessary evil when it comes to law enforcement and other government buildings in the current environment.

Can we swap with the new Edmond police headquarters?

No kidding. Not so much about the setback because I understand the current environment, but the design. The one OCPD has is underwhelming.

Large setbacks may be a necessary evil when it comes to law enforcement and other government buildings in the current environment.

If that is the case then we need cops that have a pair. Heck, even the new Edmond police station is built right to the sidewalk.

Personally, I am getting tired of people being afraid of their own shadow.

For those who haven't seen it, here is the new Edmond police station:

http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/edmond/3530d1363763837-new-public-saftey-center-8574389582_9124d03b3a_b.jpg

What intersection is that at?

What intersection is that at?

I think it's at 1st and Littler.

I didn't have any problems really with the OKC one, but the Edmond one is impressive

Meh. It's a little bit Disneyland Oklahoma Territorial for me. I do like the zero setback, and then entrance is dramatic and defined. OCPD sortof has a cool mid-century municipal vibe without being too derivative. It also complements the original Center Theater (OKCMOA), which it is close to. I doubt that is an accident. I think it's actually better architecturally, though I agree with the land use concerns.

Edmond is somehow stretching its dollars and getting very high quality work for their value. I'd be curious to see who worked on that project.

OKC is going for mid century or even almost Bauhaus and I admire that, but needs more tune-up. I think the Edmond lack of setback is a great point.

Edmond's is just a cookie cutter suburban "fake urban" look. I'm not sure why anyone is impressed by it. Other than a small setback, it's the same as any other brick building on UCO's campus.

No that does not seem to be cookie cutter. Quite the opposite really. Looks much better than our proposal for OKC.

yeah it's def not cookie cutter. if okc proposed one that looked like that, but was a few stories taller and had a larger footprint, people would be wetting themselves.

Yes, because many on here have a very narrow view of architecture. I agree Edmond's is cookie cutter and totally unoriginal.