Are they the same? Let's take Automobile Alley as an example - Iguana's (local), Sara Sara Cupcakes (local), Panchinko Parlor (local), Red (local), Hideaway (Oklahoma). Are there any others in AA? Okay, so every single restaurant in AA is local or Oklahoma.

Bricktown has chains like Abuelos, Zio's, IHOP, McDonald's with some Oklahoma and local places also.

So, I guess the reason people say AA is more local than Bricktown is because AA is more local than Bricktown.
You missed the nuances of my post.

Does Hideaway count as a chain? I would guess so, although that doesn't stop me from going to the one in AA about 4 times a week. Is it that different from Oklahoma-founded Zio's? Food-wise, of course. And yeah, Hideaway only has in-state locations at the moment, much like Zio's did when it arrived in Bricktown. Next year, Hideaway plans to start expanding into Texas. 10 years from now, when Hideaway has locations in 5 states, will that mean it is a bad business to have in AA? Or does it mean that expanding into Automobile Alley helped a great business to grow?

Abuelo's? That location was the first location outside of Texas for a small, family-owned group (I think they had three restaurants in west Texas in '94). It was an exciting time when they located in Bricktown, I promise you. And the performance of that store helped create the Abuelo's chain.

The Bricktown Brewery is unique, recently became VERY Oklahoma-focused... ...and part of a larger restaurant group. Wait? What's that you say? So are Red Prime, Iguana, and Pachinko? If Iguana qualifies as local (it obviously does), how come you didn't list Earl's Rib Palace? Heck, the same guy owns BOTH PLACES. Coach's? Local. Tapwerks? LOCAL.

Sara Sara qualifies? Obviously. How come you didn't mention Bricktown's Coco Flow?

Red Prime (one of my favorite places in town)? How many restaurants are a part of the Good Egg Group? You want me to list them? I can, because I love every one of them. But does being a part of a group make them less special or unique? Not in my mind. I guess that means you should have mentioned The Mantel when talking about Bricktown's makeup. LOCAL.

In fact, there are but a few places in ALL of the inner city that AREN'T part of larger restaurant groups. Excluding the wealth of independent Asian places, bars that incidentally serve food, and CBD lunch-only places, I could quickly only come up with a few: VZD's, Ludivine, the Museum Cafe, Joey's Pizzaria, Trattoria, Stella, Deep Deuce Grill, Sage, Tapwerks, and Nonna's. The last two are in Bricktown, and NEITHER were mentioned in your list. I'm sure there are more, but my point remains; if you're somehow disqualifying places like Bricktown Brewery, Coach's, Chelino's and Earl's because they are members of a larger group, you'd better get busy disqualifying places in the rest of the downtown districts too.

For the record, I think being a part of a small, local restaurant group is a strength. It allows for a new place to find its footing, helps create buzz when a new place opens, and provides the resources of other professionals within the organization when developing a concept.

Also for the record, though my business interests are in Bricktown my heart is actually probably more in Automobile Alley and elsewhere. I'm not dogging any of these places or restaurants; only illustrating the double-standard applied to Bricktown. You did it yourself in your post by failing to mention all of the LOCAL places here, dismissing them as "some Oklahoma and local places too."

Would all of the Bricktown worries be solved, if a developer announced today that they will build a 250 unit apartment project in Bricktown?

It would help.

bricktown .... Brix (local) bricktown brewery(local) The Mantle(local) bolaro (local) lots and lots of local and oklahoma places in bricktown
You're absolutely right. Local/Oklahoma-owned restaurants in Bricktown (both group-owned and completely independent) include: Brix, Bricktown Brewery, The Mantel, Bolero, Falcone's, Earl's Rib Palace, Coach's, In The Raw, TapWerks, Zio's, Chelino's, Bricktown Burgers, Crabtown, Nonna's, and even Toby Keith's (hey, if Charleston's and Red Rock qualify, so do they).

I would also make a case for Mickey Mantle's when it comes to "local flavor." Although they are admittedly part of the small Dallas Kirby's group, that is the only Mickey's in existence, and they run it in many ways as the flagship of their group. After 11 years their ties here run deep, and the owners are here multiple times per month; very hands-on. I also think it's pretty cool that when people take a doggy bag out of a Kirby's in Dallas or Houston, one side has the Kirby's logo and lists the four or five Texas cities they're in; the other has a Mickey's logo and says only: "Oklahoma City."

Throw in Coco Flow, and a large number bars which are almost exclusively Oklahoma-owned, and it is hard to make the argument that you can't get TONS of local flavor in Bricktown. And yet people make that argument regularly in this forum.

Funny thing is, I believe if for example the Pearl's group were to open a new, unique Pearl's concept in AA, it would universally be lauded as more great new local, but the unique Crabtown concept in Bricktown somehow remains "a chain restaurant" in people's minds. Simply put, people are fickle, Bricktown is old news, and folks apply their standards in an unequal fashion to suit their arguments. Blinders.

MikeOKC - your shopping decisions are influenced by you traveling around in a car. You don't mind traveling 4 miles to get a $2 item because you have a car, a wide road, and a large parking lot to make it all possible. When you start moving around on foot how far you are willing to travel will change. You sure won't be walking 4 miles for a $2 item and in an urban environment driving won't be an option, not because parking is a hassle, but because you don't have to; the $2 items will be available at the corner market. I am not saying it is going to happen overnight, but it will happen. The seeds of change have been planted.


Who goes to Bricktown for a $2 item?

It would help.

Bricktown does not need multiple family to be successful.

Lackmeyer can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe more than 6 million people visited Bricktown last year alone.

As someone who works in Bricktown, I can assure that things are going pretty well down here.

Is it everything that everyone wants it to be of course not. Interestingly enough the most vocal detractors of Bricktown are the people who choose not to patronize the district.

Who goes to Bricktown for a $2 item?

Where did he say anyone was going to Bricktown to get a $2 item?

Where did he say anyone was going to Bricktown to get a $2 item?


The entire post...?


MikeOKC - your shopping decisions are influenced by you traveling around in a car. You don't mind traveling 4 miles to get a $2 item because you have a car, a wide road, and a large parking lot to make it all possible. When you start moving around on foot how far you are willing to travel will change. You sure won't be walking 4 miles for a $2 item and in an urban environment driving won't be an option, not because parking is a hassle, but because you don't have to; the $2 items will be available at the corner market. I am not saying it is going to happen overnight, but it will happen. The seeds of change have been planted.

He doesn't mention Bricktown specifically in his post, but he's replying to MikeOKC's post about people not abandoning Bricktown because they live in DD or whatever.

$2 or $20 - it doesn't matter. The price wasn't the point.

Bricktown does not need multiple family to be successful.

Successful at 'what' is the question. Probably more so than anyone, I keep forgetting that Bricktown is an entertainment district, not a neighborhood. It is not a live/work/play area, and for the most part, will probably never be. And that's okay.

Guess I missed that Ginkasa but why it matters I have no clue.

I think it is a point. No, I won't go out of my way for a $2.00 item. I will, however, go another "neighborhood" if there's a particular restaurant or other hotspot I want to go to. I live in Moore. That doesn't mean I don't go somewhere else for entertainment once in a while.

Sticking with Deep Deuce and Bricktown specifically: I don't think DD is so far way (they're connected!) that someone won't walk to Mickey Mantle's or Zio's or Skky Bar or whatever if they have a hankerin'.

Bricktown does not need multiple family to be successful.

Lackmeyer can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe more than 6 million people visited Bricktown last year alone.


That would be an average of close to 16,500 people visiting there EVERY DAY of the year. That seems like a lot. I hope it is true. If so, I wonder why more retail isn't happening. Is that 16,500 who are stopping in Btown and spending money? Or driving through? Or just parking? Just curious.

Successful at 'what' is the question. Probably more so than anyone, I keep forgetting that Bricktown is an entertainment district, not a neighborhood.

I guess I should have said "worries" as that was what I was referring to. Bricktown will soon have have close to 550 hotel rooms. The busiest hotel in the state is in Bricktown. Multiple family can go elsewhere. Bricktown will also benefit from the Aloft and Level.

What exactly are your "worries" with regards to Bricktown?

That would be an average of close to 16,500 people visiting there EVERY DAY of the year. That seems like a lot. I hope it is true. If so, I wonder why more retail isn't happening. Is that 16,500 who are stopping in Btown and spending money? Or driving through? Or just parking? Just curious.



Possibly includes Thunder games?

Possibly includes Thunder games?

The Thunder games I went to I parked in Bricktown a majority of the time. Maybe that's also a factor like you suggested.

That would be an average of close to 16,500 people visiting there EVERY DAY of the year. That seems like a lot. I hope it is true. If so, I wonder why more retail isn't happening. Is that 16,500 who are stopping in Btown and spending money? Or driving through? Or just parking? Just curious.

That the number I was told during the land use study. I can't speak to the validity of the number or how it was quantified.

The retail question is an easy one. people don't like to pay to park in oklahoma city, hence the "bricktown parking myth." People in Oklahoma city will never ever pay to park to go shopping.

Bricktown does not need multiple family to be successful.

Lackmeyer can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe more than 6 million people visited Bricktown last year alone.

As someone who works in Bricktown, I can assure that things are going pretty well down here.

Is it everything that everyone wants it to be of course not. Interestingly enough the most vocal detractors of Bricktown are the people who choose not to patronize the district.

That 6 million figure, if I recall correctly, goes back to a chamber-assisted survey done back when the canal opened. It is, to be blunt, meaningless.
I think it's safe to say, when you consider the impact of the Thunder, ongoing attendance at the ballpark, movie theater, Bass Pro, tourism in general, local dining.... that the figure is probably low. But there's no real estimate. If I spent some time on it, I could probably come up with a formula that could get us into a good ballpark guess.....

Since you live in Moore, how far would you be willing to walk to buy groceries? How far is the nearest grocery store from your home? Have you ever walked there?

I guess I should have said "worries" as that was what I was referring to. Bricktown will soon have have close to 550 hotel rooms. The busiest hotel in the state is in Bricktown. Multiple family can go elsewhere. Bricktown will also benefit from the Aloft and Level.

What exactly are your "worries" with regards to Bricktown?

That as other urban location come on-line people looking for the urban experience in Bricktown will find that experience in other palces and Bricktown has no residential base to support it. Bricktown 99.99% relies on visitors. That was my only point. If they want to continue relying on visitors I am fine with that.

Since you live in Moore, how far would you be willing to walk to buy groceries? How far is the nearest grocery store from your home? Have you ever walked there?

Are you speaking to me?

Are you speaking to me?

No sorry - I was asking Ginkasa.

As far as I needed to. A mile? Not recently, no.

My point is, though, who buys groceries in Bricktown? That's not what Bricktown's for. Yes, people will generally get their essentials closer to home. No, they won't want to go out of their way, especially if they're walking, to go to the grocery store or convenience store or whatever. They will go out of my way for entertainment. For restaurants. Even when walking. Although I don't live near Bricktown I do work there. I walk all over the darn place after work or before work or even on days off. I'll park in Bricktown and walk to the Memorial, for example.

You think people won't walk from Deep Deuce to Harkins or Michael Murphy's or wherever is they want to go from Deep Deuce?

That as other urban location come on-line people looking for the urban experience in Bricktown will find that experience in other palces and Bricktown has no residential base to support it. Bricktown 99.99% relies on visitors. That was my only point. If they want to continue relying on visitors I am fine with that.

The fact of the matter is Bricktown lost most of the local population a long time ago. People have their own reasons for not going to Bricktown, parking, trendy, Ed Hardy, clubs, this demographic, that demographic. Housing in Bricktown isn't going to suddenly change peoples' perceptions of the district. There are a lot of people who won't come down here because it's Bricktown, yet Midtown, AA, and the Plaza are the cat's meow, and that's ok.

I see good things in Bricktown's future. The ACM is already changing people minds, live music is starting to take hold and some folks who used to decry Bricktown are again coming for shows. The Aloft will will benefit Bricktown and so will Level, even though those are deep duece developments.

People walk from Deep Deuce into Bricktown all the time. My former top editor, Ed Kelley, lived in Block 42 and routinely walked to the arena for Thunder games, Starbucks on Saturday mornings for coffee, and to games at the ballpark, various restaurants for dinner, etc. I know of others, including some on this board, who do so as well. I suspect that walkability downtown will increase with the Project 180 transformation of streets and the creation of a streetcar line. But only time will tell for sure. I too question the wisdom of thinking Bricktown would be the spot for a grocery compared to MidTown, Deep Deuce or Automobile Alley, all of which are far more residential in use.

The fact of the matter is Bricktown lost most of the local population a long time ago. I see good things in Bricktown's future. . . . . The ACM is already changing people minds, live music is starting to take hold and some folks who used to decry Bricktown are again coming for shows. The Aloft will will benefit Bricktown and so will Level, even though those are deep duece developments.

. . . CocoFlow has hosted a couple of chocolate classes. I drove in from the suburbs, parked (paid. . .no big deal). . . and LOVED the class. Hope they will do more in the future!! People WILL come for speciality events.

Successful at 'what' is the question. Probably more so than anyone, I keep forgetting that Bricktown is an entertainment district, not a neighborhood. It is not a live/work/play area, and for the most part, will probably never be. And that's okay.
People dramatically underestimate the number of folks who work in Bricktown, and I'm not even talking about the many hundreds - probably thousands, actually - of people in the hospitality business. The buildings bounded by Sheridan, Mickey Mantle, the canal and Oklahoma Avenue, especially, house a large number of attorneys, architects, software people, consulting companies, defense contractors and the like. Many people on this board probably assume the upper stories of those buildings are empty; yet they are substantially full. Add in the faculty and students at ACM, and you have a pretty respectable number of people who "work" in Bricktown.

Ok guys, you convinced me. I'll be in OKC over Thanksgiving and hope to get to all the new places.

People dramatically underestimate the number of folks who work in Bricktown, and I'm not even talking about the many hundreds - probably thousands, actually - of people in the hospitality business. The buildings bounded by Sheridan, Mickey Mantle, the canal and Oklahoma Avenue, especially, house a large number of attorneys, architects, software people, consulting companies, defense contractors and the like. Many people on this board probably assume the upper stories of those buildings are empty; yet they are substantially full. Add in the faculty and students at ACM, and you have a pretty respectable number of people who "work" in Bricktown.

While some are occupied...from Steve's article, read more: http://newsok.com/brokers-say-era-of-speculative-sales-in-bricktown-is-over-but-memory-hurts-areas-development/article/3608773#ixzz1ZrkhF8Nv
A survey of the area shows more than a dozen buildings have remained empty for years, and others, including the home of the Spaghetti Warehouse, have several floors of empty space with only a ground-floor tenant.
...
The negatives, however, persist, especially in Bricktown. Prominent properties staying empty for decades include the Rock Island Plow Building at Reno and Oklahoma avenues, the Sherman Iron Works Building at Main Street and Oklahoma Avenue, and the 19 E California building along the Bricktown Canal.
,,,
“Some brokers are tempted to tell the seller whatever they want to hear,” Martin said. “It's easy. But why are there all these empty floors in all these buildings?
...
“Most of the buildings still vacant are not finished out,”

Do you want your glass half empty or half full? Urbanized is right - there are, by my count, hundreds of people to be found in upper floors of buildings like ACM, the Glass/Confectionary/Baden Buildings, Candy Factory, the Karchmer Building on Main Street, Harding & Shelton's properties on the canal, the buildings on the south side of Main Street east of the Walnut Bridge, and of course the Hampton Inn. But Larry is right as well. Those empty above the first floor include The Melting Pot, Abueloe's, Spaghetti Warehouse, Brix, Hunzicker Bros. Building; completely empty buildings include 19 E California, Margarita Mama's building, Rock Island Plow Building, Sherman Iron Works, Stanley Systems Building, old dairy building, the small triangle building east of the Walnut Bridge, Stewart Steel buildings, so forth. Those with an intimate knowledge of Bricktown will also notice a theme in who owns which buildings...

So the jist is - if the building is made usable, it fills up.

Is there a real estate professional on this board who can give us an accurate portrayal of the true available space (up do desirable office specs), and an indication of the demand which is unfilled because of lack of available space (again, suitable for desired use)? If there is demand and available space, is it not full because of unreasonable or uncompetitive rates? I have looked at office space all over and the agents NEVER suggest Btown to me. Why is that?

Rover and Just the Facts, here's the basic gist: Most of the buildings that remain empty reflect either the lack of interest or unrealistic expectations by their owners to make something happen. There are many who would say one of these two reasons is at play with Spaghetti Warehouse, Stewart Metal, Sherman Ironworks, Margarita Mama's, 19 E California, Rock Island Plow Building, and the small triangle building.
I see great progress being made by the Brewer brothers in developing the Hunzicker Bros building (Peach Wave, Sammy's, Captain Norm's, more to come) and I see some very promising potential development deals for a couple other empty properties I listed in the prior post.

I never said there wasn't plenty of space and opportunity. And Steve has it right on the reasons some of those buildings remain unfinished, though that type of ownership has gone through some pretty significant upheaval over the past 5 years.

Problem is that I think many on this board and elsewhere think that for the most part all of Bricktown is ONLY restaurants and bars on the ground floors. There are tens of thousands square feet of OCCUPIED, class A type upper-floor spaces in this district. There are tons of high-income professionals who come to work here every day in white collar jobs that don't involve frying stuff, making beds or slinging drinks (not that there is anything wrong with that - my own employees are in the service/hospitality industry). I'm just saying that most of the Bricktown-bashing that is so popular on this board is often thanks to stereotypes that, while obviously based on a history that is nobody's fault but Bricktown's, are simply put not accurate.

I think Bricktown represents all the dreams, aspirations, disappointments and frustrations of urbanists in OKC, and with that in mind, this debate will continue ...

Bricktown resonates because it was the focal point of the public investment for private investment in Maps1. Even though it didn't represent where most of the money was going, it was the most visible. It embodies our dreams of turning the center city around. While it has been very successful, it hasn't produced many real high profile private projects. Yes the Hampton is "nice", but not exactly a marquis project. Put ONE really high profile new project there and the whole perception changes. Funk's proposal could have done that if done right. I also think people resent those who have owned and done nothing, just waiting to cash in on the perceived improvement of value that was created by the public's money/investement. So, those empty spots and "do nothing owners" hit a real sore spot with the public.

A quick look at Loopnet indicates apprx. 110,000 SF of vacant office space in Bricktown available for lease. However, 90,000 SF of that space is contained in three buildings (Kingman, 3 East Main and Bricktown Mercantile) and I don't know if all of that space is finished. Asking rents are in the $14 - $18/SF range.

Deep Deuce is limited currently to the first floor of the Maywood Lofts (11,903 SF available).

I think the Bricktown office market is suffering the same problem as all of OKC - companies are reluctant to relocate due to perceived weakness in the economy. Add on the perceived parking problem in Bricktown and that likely explains the lack of office population.

Keep in mind there is A LOT of space not on loopnet because it's raw, not finished, not for sale or lease

Steve, did Sammys ever open yet?

My position is that most people have a limited understanding of Bricktown. I see comments that say it is "weekends only." If you expect it to be overflowing with people the way it is on Fridays and Saturdays, I guess you're right. But there really is quite a lot weekday day and evening activity.

The difference is that most of the folks coming here are local and more purposeful; they park, go to the restaurant or bar they are seeking, and then leave. You don't see lookie-loos strolling. This of course would be vastly improved with more quality retail. But during this conversation I have been paying attention to specifically this issue. I can tell you that every day this week when I have looked out the window or walked in the district, I have seen dozens of people walking on the streets at any given moment. The Water Taxi carried several hundred yesterday. I'm sure that (as usual) several hundred people saw movies at Harkins. Today there were hundreds of people on the streets with conference badges on from the convention they are attending. I sincerely doubt that level of activity is going on anywhere else in the inner city, other than the CBD.

I can tell you that on purpose last night I stuck my head into a couple of places on my way out of Bricktown. At 8 PM the dining room at Mickey Mantle's was at capacity, the bar about 3/4 full. TapWerks was buzzing. We had 15-20 people shopping in the Bricktown Marketplace. About two dozen people were at the bar at Captain Norm's. A weekly art class hosted by Put A Cork In It winery was slammed. She had 45 people, and every week draws about 35-40. Some weeks she has more than one class there, and each week the class is also held at OTHER venues in Bricktown. The people attending are LOCALS. They aren't tourists. I'll post the photo I took of the art class below.


http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6097/6215185882_119c17c51f.jpg


My point is only that there seems to be this commonly-accepted position here that tumbleweeds are blowing down the streets here anytime but Friday and Saturday night, and that the only people frequenting Bricktown are out-of-towners. That position couldn't be further from the truth; and it's frustrating to me that rarely does anyone seek to dispel the notion.

Good comments by all. My next question: Do any of the veterans of OKC Talk recognize a pattern in these threads? OKC Talk has been around since what? - 2004/05? It seems like every two years there's a discussion about how Bricktown's best days are over....

Every thread. Every day.

Am I the only one that thinks that Bricktown doesn’t need to discover its identity right now? Lots of concepts have come and gone, and some have worked and others have not. OKC’s entire downtown is changing as fast as the tenants in Bricktown, so why would we need to establish it’s true identity when everything else around it is changing?

And to reiterate what others are saying; it will become more local as more people permanently live in the area (Deep Deuce). And yes for GOD’s sake remove the bricked up windows above Spaghetti Warehouse and occupy those top floors!

Maybe now that they've exhausted all other options they've decided to do the right thing.

Do you want your glass half empty or half full? Urbanized is right - there are, by my count, hundreds of people to be found in upper floors of buildings like ACM, the Glass/Confectionary/Baden Buildings, Candy Factory, the Karchmer Building on Main Street, Harding & Shelton's properties on the canal, the buildings on the south side of Main Street east of the Walnut Bridge, and of course the Hampton Inn. But Larry is right as well. Those empty above the first floor include The Melting Pot, Abueloe's, Spaghetti Warehouse, Brix, Hunzicker Bros. Building; completely empty buildings include 19 E California, Margarita Mama's building, Rock Island Plow Building, Sherman Iron Works, Stanley Systems Building, old dairy building, the small triangle building east of the Walnut Bridge, Stewart Steel buildings, so forth. Those with an intimate knowledge of Bricktown will also notice a theme in who owns which buildings...

What is the deal with the Stanley Systems bldg, which underwent major renovations recently?

It's going slow, but from all appearances it's still moving forward.

Anyone see today's presentation of the "Bricktown Strategic Plan" at City Council today by the Planning Department? Interesting.

Nope? Anyone have pics or link to the plan?

Anyone see today's presentation of the "Bricktown Strategic Plan" at City Council today by the Planning Department? Interesting.

Just looked through it. Key points were reconnecting Oklahoma street between Main and 2nd as well as sidewalks and lighting on Perry between Deep Deuce and Sheridan, additional on-street parking, appropriate connection to the new boulevard, and the recommendation of a mixed-use development in East Bricktown.

Nope? Anyone have pics or link to the plan?

I'm sure it won't last very long but here it is: http://okc.gov/AgendaPub/cache/2/qoh0ez552sqs41yzk3kyyz55/136233410182011055815710.PDF

Here's a better link http://www.okc.gov/AgendaPub/view.aspx?cabinet=published_meetings&fileid=1362334

Right click the link from the agenda website, select Copy Link Address (or similar) and it will give you a good link that will last forever.

I have started a new thread on the Bricktown Strategic plan as it probably deserves its own place for archival reasons.

http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=27547


I just watched the video of council, if someone can extract imbed the presentation, I think it would be a good idea. Lots of great content and discussion beyond the handout.

An interesting side note, Guestroom Records just posted an announcement to their Facebook page that they will be opening a Bricktown location in 1-2 months.

That's the type of local business that Bricktown could use! Great news!