Deep Deuce in my opinion will always be full of single early to mid-20s professionals/students. It doesn't need to be a 100% family walkable nirvana. That will develop more in Midtown, plaza, etc. Just my observations.

Austin and Seattle are great examples of cities that have good urbanism. They are also desirable and are cities that people flock to from all over the country because they seek the lifestyle that they provide. What OKC needs is a couple of districts that are very high standard like the urban districts you find in those cities. Of course since OKC is much smaller it won't have near as many or as large, but there is no reason there can't be one or two districts that matches the standards of the larger urban cities. I don't see how pushing for that would do anything but help OKC in every way.



Deep Deuce is currently farther along than about anything else in OKC. It has its flaws, but its the one neighborhood that actually feels somewhat like a genuine urban neighborhood you would expect in a larger city. You ask if one can really expect a 15 block neighborhood to have everything an urban neighborhood can/should have. Well it probably won't by itself, but one day there will hopefully be contiguous development from Bricktown through Deep Deuce all the way to Midtown in which the needs will be met. There really isn't any neighborhood in OKC that meets the standard in 2015. In my opinion, Campus Corner in Norman actually comes closest.

Bricktown and Midtown are still a great deal away from their potential. Film Row isn't really a thing yet but may be in five years. What OKC needs is a comprehensive vision for the core and a concentrated effort on a few key neighborhoods to make them the best they can be.

My main point is that other districts can develop at the same time as we strive for killer density and urbanism in select districts. It's not an either/or proposition. It's not that striving for a few, select, great neighborhoods is a superior urbanism educator than a whole urban core that is taking strides in the right direction. We can do all of the above at the same time. Increase standards everywhere, develop better projects everywhere you can, AND insist on the best possible in select neighborhoods. We can do all of the above at the same time. The goals are not in competition for the same resources; they are, in fact, complementary cultural educators.

Nope. I have never been there so I can't say.


That's interesting - pretty sure you haven't been to Japan either, but that's neither here nor there.

Maybe we should've gone to Dallas instead - so much more walkable!

That's interesting - pretty sure you haven't been to Japan either, but that's neither here nor there.

Maybe we should've gone to Dallas instead - so much more walkable!You sure ramble a lot about different subjects that are completely irrelevant.

So I guess after this fall when I will have visited nearly every northern US city, lived in LA for 6 months, visited NYC, Tehran, and now possibly Paris(yes, it's going to be a busy year for me and I more than excited), when I come back and still like highways I'm assuming your excuse will be I didn't see the light or something. :p

Part of the problem I feel is that with local developers, neighborhood still carries the connotations of the suburb. Neighborhood = Residential in the minds of people in this part of the country. We're not accustomed to thinking of neighborhood as an entirely inclusive area that has (almost) everything you need within a 5-10 minute walk.

Potentially the most problematic issue we face is the inability of the city to identify corridors and make sure that those corridors are grand slams. Connectivity is what holds OKC back more than anything else. You can live with having to walk 5 more extra minutes to get to a desired location if the walk there is going to be pleasant. There's no pleasant way to get to Fassler Hall from Deep Deuce without a car. OKC needs to identify 1. Our very most important corridors for Urban Development (Currently the only thing that I'd say is even remotely successful is Broadway) 2. The tentacles those corridors will use to reach into other neighborhoods.

In this way, the grid is not our friend because it gives us a sense of everything is equal, and that's a pretty daunting task to develop considering that the land mass of downtown is quite impressive. The day that it is completely filled in will be an amazing thing. But we're not going to get there successfully if we don't find a way of focusing our efforts into stabilizing and fortifying the most important areas.

Broadway, Classen/Western, Sheridan/Reno, 10th, 4th. Gotta make those corridors irresistible and *then* fill in the gaps.

So true.

I would add that creating a network of quality, dedicated bike lanes that connected the various nodes of concentrated development would be incredibly helpful as well.

Would love to see them do this with Classen, which could easily become a collector for the entire near NW side and allow people to move easily from tons of neighborhoods to the Plaza, Paseo, Uptown and then Midtown and all urban points beyond. Then, choose a few E/W streets that could be used for the same purpose, with extra effort put into pedestrian cross points.

Shartel and some other streets could be used in the same way.

Would really like to see this done on Robinson or Walker to bridge in many of the working class from Capitol Hill to the many jobs in the core.

More or less a hub and spoke concept and the spokes can then be extended and tapped into over time and reach far beyond just the urban core.

You sure ramble a lot about different subjects that are completely irrelevant.



You sure forget what you type rather quickly. A previous argument of yours against public transit and walkable cities was Japan's high suicide rates and "poor health", with no supporting evidence, of course. I'm sure Joel Kotkin has published extensively on this topic though - so perhaps you can educate us.

Part of the problem I feel is that with local developers, neighborhood still carries the connotations of the suburb. Neighborhood = Residential in the minds of people in this part of the country. We're not accustomed to thinking of neighborhood as an entirely inclusive area that has (almost) everything you need within a 5-10 minute walk.

Potentially the most problematic issue we face is the inability of the city to identify corridors and make sure that those corridors are grand slams. Connectivity is what holds OKC back more than anything else. You can live with having to walk 5 more extra minutes to get to a desired location if the walk there is going to be pleasant. There's no pleasant way to get to Fassler Hall from Deep Deuce without a car. OKC needs to identify 1. Our very most important corridors for Urban Development (Currently the only thing that I'd say is even remotely successful is Broadway) 2. The tentacles those corridors will use to reach into other neighborhoods.

In this way, the grid is not our friend because it gives us a sense of everything is equal, and that's a pretty daunting task to develop considering that the land mass of downtown is quite impressive. The day that it is completely filled in will be an amazing thing. But we're not going to get there successfully if we don't find a way of focusing our efforts into stabilizing and fortifying the most important areas.

Broadway, Classen/Western, Sheridan/Reno, 10th, 4th. Gotta make those corridors irresistible and *then* fill in the gaps.

While this might be the post of the year (already), I do have to say though that the DD-to-Midtown walk is FAR more pleasant now than it used to be. My wife and I walk to GoGo, Bleu Garten, Dust Bowl, and St Anthony (we both work there) all the time. There are some gaps on 10th street which are somewhat unpleasant, but for the most part you get the feeling that you're walking down the street in any city. The angled parking on Broadway has done a lot to change that. It's quite pleasant actually - I can even stop at Slingers for my morning coffee on my way to work. If there were some restaurants/cafes with outdoor patios, that would also help tremendously. But it's still not a bad way to go at all. Plus it's an easy way to get a few miles of walking in!

I wonder at some point - can we convert Broadway to just two lanes of traffic (one in one out) and widen the sidewalks? Oh I can dream...

This is a fascinating thread. I'm in my mid-40s, and I've been bullish on OKC for more than a decade. That said, I'm dispirited, to say the least, with the prevailing anti-intellectual political culture that has taken hold here. It was always present here, but there were always mitigating factors. Right now, there's not much standing in the way of a total retreat toward dumbf-ckistan. We are there. The one thing that always stood in the way of it was our city leadership. But I'm losing some faith right now, and frankly, I'm more concerned with state issues than city issues, because the state issues are so important they will ultimately undermine whatever good things our city leaders do.

I don't see much more than a pedestrian effort to stem the tide of anti-education, anti-intellectual, anti-environment, anti-personal freedom initiatives springing up and taking hold in the Legislature. This has always been somewhat of a problem, but it's gotten noticeably worse since the Republicans have taken complete control of our government.

It's gotten bad enough I've considered following Sid and others on the next train out of here. I will only live so long, and I'm not sure I have the stomach to fight all of the dumbfu-ks any more. The business community talks a good game, but they are enabling these theocratic nazis to do their thing in the Leg. I guess being an (R) is ultimately more important to our business leaders than creating a progressive, livable state.

Oklahoma is surfing on the fumes of OKC's economic revival right now, but there's no investment in infrastructure or education happening, and that is a long-term recipe for disaster.

All I can say about my upcoming move to Portland, OR is that the only things I will miss from OKC are my friends and family, Empire Slice House, Saints, and the spring thunderstorm season. The rest of it I can live without for the time being.

I will return one day, but for now I'm all but burnt out with Oklahoma. The stubborn politics and the feeling of isolation.

I told myself I wouldn't take a transfer. Convinced myself to stay in Oklahoma. Then I received my three city offers. It felt like the chains of prison were taken off. I pretty much immediately chose Portland. I feel like I will have escaped.

Listen closely Oklahoma leaders: when people my age leave at the first opportunity and feel like they are being released from prison -- you aren't doing the right things to keep us here. OKC is on the right track but still has a way to go.

All I can say about my upcoming move to Portland, OR is that the only things I will miss from OKC are my friends and family, Empire Slice House, Saints, and the spring thunderstorm season. The rest of it I can live without for the time being.

I will return one day, but for now I'm all but burnt out with Oklahoma. The stubborn politics and the feeling of isolation.

I told myself I wouldn't take a transfer. Convinced myself to stay in Oklahoma. Then I received my three city offers. It felt like the chains of prison were taken off. I pretty much immediately chose Portland. I feel like I will have escaped.

Listen closely Oklahoma leaders: when people my age leave at the first opportunity and feel like they are being released from prison -- you aren't doing the right things to keep us here. OKC is on the right track but still has a way to go.

OKC may be on the right track, but Oklahoma isn't. Big problem for OKC.

I feel the same as Catch. Other than a few restaurants and family along with the storms, I will not miss this place in any way. I am ready to get out!

Sad thing is, OKC has so much potential but I fear it will never fulfill it because of this backwards state.

It's something I don't like to say without being delicate but recently a family member was really persistent and seemed offended that I wouldn't consider going back to Oklahoma. I finally just had to say, I can't imagine things changing enough.

I like to hop on the train and explore Portland. We'll have to grab coffee soon!
Careful, you might decide to leave Seattle for Portland. Having spent time in both I find Portland way more appealing.

Listen closely Oklahoma leaders: when people my age leave at the first opportunity and feel like they are being released from prison -- you aren't doing the right things to keep us here. OKC is on the right track but still has a way to go.

Isn't that the truth - the worst part is they don't care. They don't want to listen to us and keep us here - we disagree with them and aren't part of their good ol' boy network, so we don't belong here. And that's definitely exaggerating - but the way the boulevard and new "developments" in the CBD progressed, it sure feels that way.

As far as politics go, this isn't the political board, so I'm going to touch on it only briefly.

We get a lot of stupid bills proposed, but not nearly as many of them actually pass. That means there are still enough good legislators to mostly keep the bad ones in check. There just aren't enough to keep them quiet. The state is mostly red, but that's just because candidates who would run as Democrats anywhere else will run as Republicans here. In politics no party ever has quite as much control as it appears.

Having lived in Kansas and Texas since leaving OKC, let's not sit here and pretend like there aren't a ton of states with political problems. There are. You all just don't hear about them because you live in... Oklahoma. Think Indianans are happy with their state right now? I'm not dismissing Oklahoma's problems, but they're not nearly as unique as you all think. Of course, if you leave for one of 10-15 solid blue states you'll see more general acceptance of diversity and different ideas, which is what a lot of this is about.

And not be all contrarian and positive, but I actually miss OKC a lot and love coming back.

A lot of the politics are for show. The bull**** bills that get proposed and fail amount to a waste of time -- but they're designed to get votes from slackjawed morons. And that still works, sadly.

I'm more concerned with the systemic defunding of education and infrastructure. Fakey abortion bills that piss people off and make national news -- and stupid anti-LGBT bills as well -- are annoying, but the long-term lack of investment in our future will doom this state, no matter how well OKC is doing.

I hear what you're saying, dankrukta, but Oklahoma has about the same national reputation as Mississippi and Arkansas right now, and that will not be good for business.

On Edit: millennials need to vote. The turnout by them in the gubernatorial race was disgraceful. I understand they're all disillusioned that Obama wasn't a damn magician and not everything is perfect, but freaking vote already. 35% turnout in a race in which we had a clear choice is inexcusable. I know so many folks who didn't vote, and it's vexing.

I feel the same as Catch. Other than a few restaurants and family along with the storms, I will not miss this place in any way. I am ready to get out!

Sad thing is, OKC has so much potential but I fear it will never fulfill it because of this backwards state.

I understand the frustration, and I even understand the negativity. Being an "urban pioneer" is not for the faint of heart. I don't mean this as a direct sleight against anyone, but it's easy to champion change until you encounter opposition and then go where things are already mostly the way you want them to be. Everyone has a line for how much they are willing to endure to keep our beloved city their home. I can't help wishing that some of you with so much to offer would have more of a resilient vision. If OKC does not reach it's full potential, it really won't be the fault of clueless legislators. It will be because those who were in the best position to bring systemic change surrendered it prematurely.

Oklahoma City has multiple cards stacked against it right now, some changeable and others not. It seems like just as the city's national perception appeared that it was about to turn a corner, the city was hit with a triple-whammy of collapsing oil prices, very questionable real estate deals (499 Sheridan, Clayco TIF request, Convention Center debacle), and the most embarrassing legislature in the state's history. Talk about bad luck and bad timing.

I definitely believe the state politics are the biggest thing holding the city back right now. I know many people who have already left or are working on leaving because of it among other things. Catch22 is right...if leaving Oklahoma feels like getting out of prison, something needs to change. Problem is the conservative politicians nor the religious base that elected them even care. To them, it's probably good that younger, more progressive minded people do leave because that helps create a more God-fearing state.

Everyone has a point that they will decide that its better to move than to stay around here waiting for things to change. It's understandable as well. We get one life, so we need to decide whether its more important to stick around, get involved, and be the change, or to cut and run to somewhere that is already the kind of place we can thrive. I think the goal should be first and foremost creating an Oklahoma City that offers a comparable quality of life to cities people are leaving for (Dallas, Austin, Seattle, etc). Of course OKC will never be those places and shouldn't, but living in OKC should not come with having to sacrifice quality of life vs living elsewhere. This means a comprehensive vision for the urban core and setting standards that must be adhered to. This means fixing and improving roads in existing suburban areas instead of widening new roads out in the middle of nowhere where nobody lives yet. This means doing whatever it takes to bring about modern liquor laws. This also means cleaning up and beautifying key corridors of the city to make this a more pleasant, aesthetically attractive place to live. Achieving this will help the city retain its younger, educated, more progressive minded people as well as make it more attractive to potential residents from out of state. Most of these changes will need to be made at the state level, but some things can be done at the city.

Problem is when the city is controlled by the good ole' boy network actually achieving real change can seem impossible especially if that change goes against what the powers that be want.

Oklahoma City will survive; it's our standard.

Do we expect it to be solved overnight?

These problems & concerns are a result of 40 years of neglect, non vision & maintaining the status quo. You'll see results that will paint a brighter future; it's going to take 20 years to undo our past. Let's move forward with a plan that accelerates our growth with fewer mistakes; there will be situations in which we will have to decide on the lesser of two evils.

It's something I don't like to say without being delicate but recently a family member was really persistent and seemed offended that I wouldn't consider going back to Oklahoma. I finally just had to say, I can't imagine things changing enough.

I like to hop on the train and explore Portland. We'll have to grab coffee soon!

Sure thing! I go to work May 24. Should be settled in a few weeks into June! Just let me know.

I plan on taking the train up to Seattle also, at some point, so there's opportunity on your end of the tracks too.

Problem is when the city is controlled by the good ole' boy network actually achieving real change can seem impossible especially if that change goes against what the powers that be want.

I really believe this dynamic is starting to shift in a pretty important way.

If you watched the City Council meeting today, you'll see people starting to challenge and question and at the very least the express train in the name of economic development has to now stop at various stations and be held accountable.

Radical change doesn't happen over night but I do see a shift taking place, and that's the first step.


The bottom line is that everyone knows what should be done. OKC isn't undertaking anything that hasn't already been done countless times before and studied to death.

The correct answers are known to all (less sprawl, more walkability and recreation, better public transit, preserving historic buildings, etc.) and it's time we stop pretending like there is something unique about OKC that allows powerful people to completely act against these internationally accepted, tried-and-true principles.

Pete there was something you said back when I first started reading the site that really has struck with me as the city grows. It was something like a fortune 500 company moving here is unlikely as much as people want to believe we can do it, whats more likely is a business here or a new business growing into a large company. OKC has to and I believe is starting to prove it can be a place to start a company that can grow. The good ol boy network doesnt do much to help start ups but watching the council meeting today shows that the status qua isnt good enough anymore. Okc is changing in many ways and still needs to change in many more but the end result will hopefully be something that benefits all.

This is a fascinating thread. I'm in my mid-40s, and I've been bullish on OKC for more than a decade. That said, I'm dispirited, to say the least, with the prevailing anti-intellectual political culture that has taken hold here. It was always present here, but there were always mitigating factors. Right now, there's not much standing in the way of a total retreat toward dumbf-ckistan. We are there. The one thing that always stood in the way of it was our city leadership. But I'm losing some faith right now, and frankly, I'm more concerned with state issues than city issues, because the state issues are so important they will ultimately undermine whatever good things our city leaders do.

I don't see much more than a pedestrian effort to stem the tide of anti-education, anti-intellectual, anti-environment, anti-personal freedom initiatives springing up and taking hold in the Legislature. This has always been somewhat of a problem, but it's gotten noticeably worse since the Republicans have taken complete control of our government.

It's gotten bad enough I've considered following Sid and others on the next train out of here. I will only live so long, and I'm not sure I have the stomach to fight all of the dumbfu-ks any more. The business community talks a good game, but they are enabling these theocratic nazis to do their thing in the Leg. I guess being an (R) is ultimately more important to our business leaders than creating a progressive, livable state.

Oklahoma is surfing on the fumes of OKC's economic revival right now, but there's no investment in infrastructure or education happening, and that is a long-term recipe for disaster.

If you go going to spew political leftist propaganda. Can't you at least keep in the the politics forum where it belongs

Someone should compile this list of comments about the City and forward them to the Mayors office. Mick thinks this city is drawing millennials like flies, I think some of these comments might cause City leadership to rethink priorities and focus more of things that matter to that and frankly other demographics. The State is another matter. As long as Oklahoma lacks significant diversity of thoughts/ideas (most often brought about by people moving in from other places) which Oklahoma is not generally considered a magnet for, then old, stagnant ideas and policies will remain.

If you go going to spew political leftist propaganda. Can't you at least keep in the the politics forum where it belongs
Ah, what's the matter? Was the poster putting forth too much truth at you? I know the truth is not always pretty
and too many people just want it to magically go away without doing something about it. But the truth is that sitting around waiting for the truth to change for the better won't make it go away. By the way, it's just as important for now to work on keeping people who are here as it is to attract outsiders.

Who or what business wants to move to Oklahoma, because it's called the reddest state in the union? What kind of people may that distinction attract to come here? Perhaps followers of the infamous Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka, who want to set up a branch church in Oklahoma?

Who or what business wants to move to Oklahoma, because it's called the reddest state in the union? What kind of people may that distinction attract to come here? Perhaps followers of the infamous Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka, who want to set up a branch church in Oklahoma?

Sorry, but I think this kind of bogus and hateful stereotyping crap is completely out of line.

Someone should compile this list of comments about the City and forward them to the Mayors office. Mick thinks this city is drawing millennials like flies, I think some of these comments might cause City leadership to rethink priorities and focus more of things that matter to that and frankly other demographics. The State is another matter. As long as Oklahoma lacks significant diversity of thoughts/ideas (most often brought about by people moving in from other places) which Oklahoma is not generally considered a magnet for, then old, stagnant ideas and policies will remain.

I get very frustrated by the state legislature and some of the really bad press about the state in general, but keep in mind cities in Texas are growing at the highest rates of any in the country, and they have the exact same sort of issues at the state level. The same crazy proposed legislation, weird liquor laws, etc.

So, I think people who love OKC and want to see it advance need to lay that issue aside. Yes, changes need to happen throughout the state but it doesn't have to be an excuse for what or what does not happen in the OKC area.

In that respect, OKC can lead the way rather than be at the mercy of the state as a whole. That is certainly happening to some extent but not enough.

As I said, what needs to happen in OKC is very clear. This equation has been solved many, many times. We know the correct answers.

It's just time for the citizenry and local leaders to do the right thing, even though it's frequently difficult and contrary to the interest of the powerful few.

I get very frustrated by the state legislature and some of the really bad press about the state in general, but keep in mind cities in Texas are growing at the highest rates of any in the country, and they have the exact same sort of issues at the state level. The same crazy proposed legislation, weird liquor laws, etc.

So, I think people who love OKC and want to see it advance need to lay that issue aside. Yes, changes need to happen throughout the state but it doesn't have to be an excuse for what or what does not happen in the OKC area.

In that respect, OKC can lead the way rather than be at the mercy of the state as a whole. That is certainly happening to some extent but not enough.

As I said, what needs to happen in OKC is very clear. This equation has been solved many, many times. We know the correct answers.

It's just time for the citizenry and local leaders to do the right thing, even though it's frequently difficult and contrary to the interest of the powerful few.

Exactly. And I think one has the right to agree or disagree with a Legislative body and their agenda...or a President and his agenda. But I hope you would agree that equating Conservatives as being like-minded with the wackos of the Westboro Church does a total disservice to this discussion.

Well said Pete.

I always get a kick when people say "I'm moving to a more progressive state like Texas!" not realizing you are moving to a place that elected Rick Perry and Ted Cruz. Please don't even get me started on the queue of anti gay laws peculating in the state leg down here (and are likely to pass).

With that in mind, OKC is not a victim of the state to the extent some make it on here. Okie is gunna Okie, the rural parts of the state are not going to change. But there is plenty that OKC can do as a whole that it does not. Let me just say I really like Mick Cornett, but I remember when the state proposed and eventually passed the ban on nuisance property registrations. That was a law a lot of people fought for and Cornett's response was "meh" and a shoulder shrug. Bro, you are the mayor of the biggest city in the state and the economic powerhouse responsible for a serious slice of state revenue, you have a little sway. Say something!

Also, given that big business is really the main counterweight to the social conservatives at the state level, I think the OKC Chamber has proven itself fairly useless in its lobbying efforts. But that is another thread for another day.

I mean, if Nashville can boom with Tennessee's ass-backward statehouse and and Indianapolis can prosper with Indiana's equally nutty leg, than OKC can do the same.

Well said Pete.

I always get a kick when people say "I'm moving to a more progressive state like Texas!" not realizing you are moving to a place that elected Rick Perry and Ted Cruz. Please don't even get me started on the queue of anti gay laws peculating in the state leg down here (and are likely to pass).

Sorry, ADaniel. Texas, while definitely a conservative state, is more progressive or at least more progressive-friendly on the surface than Oklahoma. In Texas the conservatism doesn't have as much direct impact on the individual as it does in Oklahoma. Texas cities are much more diverse and they have liberal pockets where you can all but forget you are in a red state. Of course, a lot of that is simply because of how large Texas' cities are. Go to rural areas and small town Texas and you better be Republican. Though Texas does have its own strange liquor laws, their system is nowhere close to as restrictive to the consumer as Oklahoma's is. In Texas I can go into any grocery store any day of the week and buy a cold real beer or a bottle of wine. Texas and Oklahoma, while both red states, aren't quite the same shade of red.


I mean, if Nashville can boom with Tennessee's ass-backward statehouse and and Indianapolis can prosper with Indiana's equally nutty leg, than OKC can do the same.

The recent legislation in Indiana is likely to hurt Indianapolis. With that said, Indianapolis and Nashville pull more weight in their states because they are much larger metro areas than OKC. Once Oklahoma City's metro population gets up closer to 2 million there will likely be some changes at the state level. Today, Oklahoma is a little more like Arkansas. Little Rock is actually a fairly progressive, modern place, but it is too small and the state is too dominated by rural interests for it to pull a lot of weight. In the mean time, Oklahoma City and Mayor Cornett should be much more proactive at vocally opposing state legislation that has potential to stifle the city's progress.

Sorry, ADaniel. Texas, while definitely a conservative state, is more progressive or at least more progressive-friendly on the surface than Oklahoma. In Texas the conservatism doesn't have as much direct impact on the individual as it does in Oklahoma. Texas cities are much more diverse and they have liberal pockets where you can all but forget you are in a red state. Of course, a lot of that is simply because of how large Texas' cities are. Go to rural areas and small town Texas and you better be Republican. Though Texas does have its own strange liquor laws, their system is nowhere close to as restrictive to the consumer as Oklahoma's is. In Texas I can go into any grocery store any day of the week and buy a cold real beer or a bottle of wine. Texas and Oklahoma, while both red states, aren't quite the same shade of red.


What are you talking about. There are voting precincts in the Dallas metro that are totally dry and you have to join the "priviate" club to by a drink a chilis

This discussion has been interesting.

I've had four friends in the last week announce they are leaving Oklahoma City to head to the east coast. All are going because they got a job, but each of them also cited various standard of living issues here. One mentioned that the politics was a driving factor, two mentioned that they want to live somewhere more walkable (and they are moving to a city known for being walkable) and with better schools for their young child, and one mentioned a combination of politics and walkability. None of them saw progress being made quick enough for their liking. It should be noted that when politics was mentioned, they weren't leaving because of the philosophically conservative nature of Oklahoma politics, but because of the political priorities of our legislature.

I have two other friends who are job searching in other states for the same reasons. It's odd to me that all of this seemed to come so suddenly for these six friends. Just a year ago, most of them were talking about how much they love OKC and the progress it's making; now, something has changed and I'm not sure what it is.

My biggest complaint with people who post complaints about our politics and way of life is that complaining is all they seem to do. I'm not thinking of anyone on this board in particular; I'm actually referencing friends I see complain on Facebook all the time. As a couple posters wrote, it's difficult to make change because it doesn't happen overnight and it requires a lot of hard, consistent work. But it's a lot more difficult when all you do is put up a post on social media and think that constitutes a contribution to change. I'm willing to bet a substantial portion of these people complaining about Oklahoma have a spotty voting record, have never knocked a door for a political candidate, have never written an original letter or email to their legislator or councilman, have never attended a civic forum, have never attended a MAPS advisory committee meeting of any kind, and have never done anything but bitch and moan and wish for the city to magically manifest itself as they wish it to be.

If that's all you do, don't expect anything to get better; just move to your dream city and enjoy the work of others who made it that way long before you got there.

You only get one life. I applaud those who are working hard to move OKC forward.

But OKC seems like such a challenge, you can't really fault people who move to bluer waters. You can't expect people to live where they don't like, pushing for change which is not wanted. Again, I applaud those who are working hard to improve OKC -- your efforts do not go unnoticed and unappreciated by us. However, try to not fault those of us who have had enough, though.

You only get one life. I applaud those who are working hard to move OKC forward.

But OKC seems like such a challenge, you can't really fault people who move to bluer waters. You can't expect people to live where they don't like, pushing for change which is not wanted. Again, I applaud those who are working hard to improve OKC -- your efforts do not go unnoticed and unappreciated by us. However, try to not fault those of us who have had enough, though.

Are you channeling Roger Waters?

And when they've given you their all
Some stagger and fall
After all
It's not easy banging your heart against
Some mad bugger's wall

Bchris, always here to clarify that Oklahoma is way worse than we think with a couple anecdotes and little else. Never fails.

I live in Texas and it was illegal to buy liquor until like a month ago. I had to join a club (provide my address and sign a membership) to drink at a bar. I'm not in some rural county. I'm in DFW. Yeah, Texas is bastion of progressive liquor laws. Good grief.

What are you talking about. There are voting precincts in the Dallas metro that are totally dry and you have to join the "priviate" club to by a drink a chilisdifference is there you can go buy liquor 3-4 miles down the road.

difference is there you can go buy liquor 3-4 miles down the road.
That just may be unacceptable in a metropolitan utopia like DFW

A grocery run generally takes about 10-15 minutes one way. That's not really acceptable for a growing area like that.

10-15 minutes is acceptable, even decent when you live in a rural area. It's not when you live in an urban or growing suburban area however.
I would say in a metropolitan utopia like DFW there should be a bar on every corner, maybe even a fetching young mobile bartender with a bandoleer of shot glasses and a holster for tequila in the doorway to every building.

That just may be unacceptable in a metropolitan utopia like DFW


I would say in a metropolitan utopia like DFW there should be a bar on every corner, maybe even a fetching young mobile bartender with a bandoleer of shot glasses and a holster for tequila in the doorway to every building.im on board with your plan m. Heck, I'll even volunteer to be the young bartender that delivers shots to people's houses as long as I can serve highland park and north Dallas.

Yall can put bchris on ignore, FYI.

You only get one life. I applaud those who are working hard to move OKC forward.

But OKC seems like such a challenge, you can't really fault people who move to bluer waters. You can't expect people to live where they don't like, pushing for change which is not wanted. Again, I applaud those who are working hard to improve OKC -- your efforts do not go unnoticed and unappreciated by us. However, try to not fault those of us who have had enough, though.

I was one of those people but I didn't leave over politics or the liquor laws. Just to have a broader experience. And to surf. :)

However, I've lived in Southern California for 25 years now. I served on various boards, even ran a nonprofit for at-risk teens and their families in one of the 'worst' areas of L.A.; and that's saying something. Yet, I generally don't feel like I've made much of a difference here.

Also, I can go jump on a subway any day of the week and do a million other cool urban things that I can't do in OKC, yet that experience generally does nothing for me. Why? Because I don't really feel connected to the community and to put it bluntly, I just don't care about L.A.

I'm at the point in my life where I want to make a difference, and there is more opportunity to do that in OKC for just about anyone than any place I know.

I say all that as a counter to the "I just want to go somewhere that is much farther along" argument. It's more than valid, but there is another side to that coin.

I was one of those people but I didn't leave over politics or the liquor laws. Just to have a broader experience. And to surf. :)

However, I've lived in Southern California for 25 years now. I served on various boards, even ran a nonprofit for at-risk teens and their families in one of the 'worst' areas of L.A.; and that's saying something. Yet, I generally don't feel like I've made much of a difference here.

Also, I can go jump on a subway any day of the week and do a million other cool urban things that I can't do in OKC, yet that experience generally does nothing for me. Why? Because I don't really feel connected the community and to put it bluntly, I just don't care about L.A.

I'm at the point in my life where I want to make a difference, and there is more opportunity to do that in OKC for just about anyone than any place I know.

I say all that as a counter to the "I just want to go somewhere that is much farther along" argument. It's more than valid, but there is another side to that coin.you most certianly did make a difference to a lot of people. The reason you notice things here is OKC is such a small city with not much going on like LA. That doesn't mean you disn't make a difference there.

To those people, I'm sure you made a difference.

OKC has tons of potential and if I make it, I want to invest here and do great things for this city, but it is overwhelming at times to even find out where you need to start.

Maybe I'll learn to appreciate it more once I have lived in LA for several years, but I am so excited to finally be in a real city and a state that actually has nice things I can hardly stand it!

I was one of those people but I didn't leave over politics or the liquor laws. Just to have a broader experience. And to surf. :)

However, I've lived in Southern California for 25 years now. I served on various boards, even ran a nonprofit for at-risk teens and their families in one of the 'worst' areas of L.A.; and that's saying something. Yet, I generally don't feel like I've made much of a difference here.

Also, I can go jump on a subway any day of the week and do a million other cool urban things that I can't do in OKC, yet that experience generally does nothing for me. Why? Because I don't really feel connected the community and to put it bluntly, I just don't care about L.A.

I'm at the point in my life where I want to make a difference, and there is more opportunity to do that in OKC for just about anyone than any place I know.

I say all that as a counter to the "I just want to go somewhere that is much farther along" argument. It's more than valid, but there is another side to that coin.

That's a very fair post. My point was to not blame people who left for things not changing. Sure they have an affect, but you can't expect people to put up with things forever.

I've had enough of Oklahoma for right now. I'll most likely return at some point.

An opportunity knocked to live elsewhere, with many more things aligned with my interested than OKC. I may hate it. I certainly know I will not be a part of the community for a while -- and that is scary. Hopefully I can make some friends up there. As it stands I only know one person in Portland.

I agree with all of your points, though. I just don't like the "you're leaving because you're a quitter" mentality that is trying to creep into this thread. I'm leaving because I can and because I want to. And that's how it is for a lot of people.

In order to retain people. You have to make them not want to leave. Not tell them it will be better in 5 years.

We all have to live our lives how we want. Some want to help make places better while others just want to live somewhere that satisfies them as it is. Plenty of those options in America, but none in Oklahoma for me personally. Yet.

You only get one life. I applaud those who are working hard to move OKC forward.

But OKC seems like such a challenge, you can't really fault people who move to bluer waters. You can't expect people to live where they don't like, pushing for change which is not wanted. Again, I applaud those who are working hard to improve OKC -- your efforts do not go unnoticed and unappreciated by us. However, try to not fault those of us who have had enough, though.

The grass is ALWAYS GREENER on the other side, but if you'd take the time to water your own yard, you may find your own little paradise was here all along.

I don't think anyone should blame others for wanting to expand their horizons and move onto something bigger and better. That's life, that's human nature. However it is completely different for people to have no involvement whatsoever and then harp on OKC for not bettering itself and not being able to compete with Dallas, Charlotte, or Seattle [insert ridiculous comparison cities here]. It starts with an involved population and a delegation of elected officials and government employees/appointees that are willing to listen, implement change, learn, and grow. Complaining on the internet for months or years, and rehashing the same criticisms and disappointments, is not involvement. It does not move us forward, it does nothing except firmly remind us what we already have knowledge of. So while there will always be "bluer waters" to move to, let's not pretend that those waters were never in the position that Oklahoma City finds itself in now. Change can happen and it's obvious change/transparency/involvement is at least on the verge in this city, but there's much more work to be done and awareness to be raised. Outside of our wonderful OKCTalk that is.

What can be done to encourage more involvement among constituents and citizens to better raise awareness towards government transparency, education reforms, transportation options, quality of life, variety in housing and entertainment options, general city/utility/politics issues? How do we get our fellow Oklahoma Citians to care about these sorts of things? How does OKC continue it's path to success with the State of Oklahoma seemingly willing to drag us down. What can we do [in the immediate future] to ensure that educated, skilled workers are staying in/ or moving to Oklahoma City? What exactly do these other more progressive municipalities do to raise awareness and activism pertaining to those areas? Besides already being a magnet to the types of people who are involved? Like Pete said, the answers are out there.

Again, let's not pretend these bigger and better cities were never in a position that we find ourselves in now.

Great post, Pete.

To give the other side of my previous post: I have three friends who currently live in LA. One of them is moving back to Oklahoma City next month and the other two are actively searching for a way to come back after being there for ten years. Like Pete, they just don't care about LA, even though they love being able to eat at all the vegan restaurants their heart desires and go drink varied wines on any given day. And so while they enjoy that aspect of the "bluer waters," they miss OKC and the people here. They especially miss the cost of living in Oklahoma City. Each of them are looking into starting their own businesses here, taking concepts they appreciated in LA and adapting them to Oklahoma City's culture.

It's easy to focus on the people leaving due to their unhappiness because it hits on emotions and ideas we all think about to some extent , but there are also a lot of people moving here or coming back. And those who leave almost always come back, including me.

To again echo Pete's comments: I have several friends who live on the coasts. They are always trying to get me to move out there and they ask why I want to live in OKC. They don't ask it in the stereotypical, why on earth would you want to live THERE tone; they're genuinely curious, partly because they hear more things about OKC in the news. I'm someone who prefers to be in on a project from the ground up, right at the beginning. I believe OKC is the perfect place for me because of that. There's so much growing and progress going on and to be able to affect it and be here from the (relative, of course) start not only appeals to me particularly, but it's quite exciting historically. I think it's fun to be in the already big, progressive cities, but there's really nothing for me, personally, to connect to or make a difference in the way I want to. There is in OKC.

I've had enough of Oklahoma for right now. I'll most likely return at some point.

I'm a huge advocate for exploring the world while young -- or really at any time.

And if more people in Oklahoma did that and then moved back, the community would only benefit.

One of my biggest criticisms about City Hall is that they are all from OKC and most have lived there and worked only for the City. And considering that we are trying to undo some very bad policies and approaches from the past, that's hard to do when you have no other perspective.

Travel and reading and going to seminars (if that is done at all) are simply no substitute for actually *living* somewhere else. I had been to Cali many times but it presented itself as a completely different place once I made it my place of residence.

Moving to the big city after college is a timeless and universal human condition. Oklahomans typically look to Dallas or a city in the West. Seems this still holds true as most people here, except for bChris, talk of Dallas, LA, Portland, or Seattle. Anyone dreaming of moving to Miami or Boston or NYC?

Over time, you appreciate that OK has really good aspects, and other places have problems of their own. As far state politics, I would like to see OK spend money on schools and infrastructures. But if you look at the money spent on CA schools, are they really producing a better product (speaking of K-12; CA has world-class higher institutions if you can get into them)?

Moving to the big city after college is a timeless and universal human condition. Oklahomans typically look to Dallas or a city in the West. Seems this still holds true as most people here, except for bChris, talk of Dallas, LA, Portland, or Seattle. Anyone dreaming of moving to Miami or Boston or NYC?

I agree with this completely.

How I ended up in Charlotte was a long story but prior to living there I idealized Dallas, Austin, and Houston. The east coast was never really on my radar. By circumstances I ended up in Charlotte and after living there I fell in love with the east coast. It's completely true though that everywhere has its advantages and disadvantages. When relocating, whether its away from Oklahoma or back to Oklahoma from somewhere else you loved, its important to consider not only what you will gain by making the move but what you will lose. Many times after a relocation we are more psychologically affected by what we lose and the grief that comes with that than what we have gained by making the move.

Oklahoma is more interconnected with the west than the east. It's also easier for transplants from Texas or the west coast to adjust to OKC than it is those from the east.

I'm a huge advocate for exploring the world while young -- or really at any time.

And then there are us crazy folks who chose to explore the world while young... by moving to Oklahoma. :P

Just the desire to live somewhere completely different is pretty universal.

A lot of my friends that grew up in Southern California went to school on the East Coast; many in the Boston area in particular.

And a good number of my friends out here who were from other places have now moved to NYC. I have about a dozen friends who have done that in just the last five years.

In general, people just move more than they used to and the population in the U.S. is increasingly urban.

I get very frustrated by the state legislature and some of the really bad press about the state in general, but keep in mind cities in Texas are growing at the highest rates of any in the country, and they have the exact same sort of issues at the state level. The same crazy proposed legislation, weird liquor laws, etc.

So, I think people who love OKC and want to see it advance need to lay that issue aside. Yes, changes need to happen throughout the state but it doesn't have to be an excuse for what or what does not happen in the OKC area.

In that respect, OKC can lead the way rather than be at the mercy of the state as a whole. That is certainly happening to some extent but not enough.

As I said, what needs to happen in OKC is very clear. This equation has been solved many, many times. We know the correct answers.

It's just time for the citizenry and local leaders to do the right thing, even though it's frequently difficult and contrary to the interest of the powerful few.

It seems like when many of the major cities or states in 'fly over country' make the news in a less than positive manor, they get a pretty similar reaction from commenters.

Maybe I'll learn to appreciate it more once I have lived in LA for several years, but I am so excited to finally be in a real city and a state that actually has nice things I can hardly stand it!

Hate to break it to you but you are setting your self up for disappointment.

Hate to break it to you but you are setting your self up for disappointment.why is that?

I also have dreams of becoming an actor and that is the main reason I'm moving to LA. I have long had a passion for acting but never took it serious enough to do anything with it.

A few years ago, I know there was some data available to show the extensive migration of people moving from California to Oklahoma. And just out of California in general.

Still is, at least as of 2013. Also, I am almost certain that there is a larger percentage of people born in CA living in OK than any other state east of the Rockies.

California is not an easy place to live.

I'm a huge advocate for exploring the world while young -- or really at any time.

And if more people in Oklahoma did that and then moved back, the community would only benefit.

One of my biggest criticisms about City Hall is that they are all from OKC and most have lived there and worked only for the City. And considering that we are trying to undo some very bad policies and approaches from the past, that's hard to do when you have no other perspective.

Travel and reading and going to seminars (if that is done at all) are simply no substitute for actually *living* somewhere else. I had been to Cali many times but it presented itself as a completely different place once I made it my place of residence.

10,000x this.

I can't tell you how often I find myself sad that I can't live in 2 places at the same time. Unfortunately, I feel like I need to get out of OKC, not because of what's wrong with OKC, but because the rest of the world has so much to teach, and I've learned nearly my entire life from OKC.

Of course OKC has problems. So do Paris and Seattle and Bangkok and Lima. Every place you can live has beautiful things about it and ugly things about it. My problem with what I see in discussions like these is I see people talk so much about leaving or other people leaving for negative reasons. It's why I appreciate so much what Sid's position "I'm not leaving because I don't like OKC…I'm leaving because I want my kids to learn & experience x/y/z". That's the path to success and it leaves the door open for life to present itself in a far more compelling and enjoyable way.

And I can't say how much I wish people would move out of OKC for a bit and come back with fresh perspective, ready to make a difference.

At the end of the day though, OKC is growing, and quicker than 81 of the Top 100 MSAs over the last 4 years. I'd guess that we're doing pretty well :) .

It's expensive out here, but there are reasons for that.

I assure you, property values only continue to go up and population growth is still strong.

My modest home that is nowhere near the ocean would sell for 4-5 times something comparable in OKC, and there are plenty of buyers.

I can't tell you how often I find myself sad that I can't live in 2 places at the same time. Unfortunately, I feel like I need to get out of OKC, not because of what's wrong with OKC, but because the rest of the world has so much to teach, and I've learned nearly my entire life from OKC.

I have this great remorse of choice because by choosing to live one place, I am choosing not to live in about 50 other places that I know I'd love.

For a while, I had this fantasy about splitting time between here and OKC but that is simply never going to happen. Even getting back there once a year is a challenge.

I've flirted with the idea -- especially since I can work from almost anywhere -- of getting a simple place in OKC, then renting it out as a spend 6 months to a year in U.S. cities to the north and east. I'd love to live in KC, then St. Louis, then Des Moines, then Minneapolis, then Milwaukee, then Indy, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Philly, etc., etc.

But I also know as soon as I make my next move, I'll deeply regret not living in California any more. :)

I have this great remorse of choice because by choosing to live one place, I am choosing not to live in about 50 other places that I know I'd love.

For a while, I had this fantasy about splitting time between here and OKC but that is simply never going to happen. Even getting back there once a year is a challenge.

I've flirted with the idea -- especially since I can work from almost anywhere -- of getting a simple place in OKC, then renting it out as a spend 6 months to a year in U.S. cities to the north and east. I'd love to live in KC, then St. Louis, then Des Moines, then Minneapolis, then Milwaukee, then Indy, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Philly, etc., etc.

But I also know as soon as I make my next move, I'll deeply regret not living in California any more. :)

This is the exact idea I've always dreamed of. Establish home and build a business that is mobile or self-sustaining, and spend time in multiple places.

I am fortunate to have a nice place in San Diego that I don't think I could afford if I had to buy today. If you have the basics covered, CA is awesome; it is just hard to get established here now unless you have a great income. Two things to watch out for though: lack of water (it's going to cost big time to address that) and if temperatures continue to creep up, it won't be as perfect as is now. It is all about the weather in SoCal.

I've flirted with the idea -- especially since I can work from almost anywhere -- of getting a simple place in OKC, then renting it out as a spend 6 months to a year in U.S. cities to the north and east.

First, get a place in the OKC urban core and rent it out via AirBnB to OKCTalkers who live out of town. ;)
Second, I think I've asked this before, but have you ever seriously considered moving back to OKC? When you mentioned wanting to make a difference earlier, all I could think is the incredible difference you could make by living in OKC.