View Full Version : Population Growth for OKC



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Pete
01-11-2023, 04:20 PM
I think I'm just getting old enough to think "you guys don't know how you good you have it" when I hear complaints about OKC. lol

No kidding! I graduated from OU in 1982 and things promptly went to hell. I was in my 20s in the 1980s and it's hard to describe how little was going on here. That's a big part of the reason I left in 1989.

At the same time, constantly comparing ourselves to those dark days is not a good yardstick if we want to talk about being competitive and bringing in meaningful new employers and having people consider us as a desirable place to move.

Yes, things are miles better but we started from an abysmal baseline. So it's great to celebrate how far we've come but it's also disingenuous to say that we are now having people move here in large numbers from places like California. And to keep promoting that narrative does a great disservice to those of us who want to see OKC and the state move forward and actually become competitive with the dozens of states and cities that are empirically way ahead of us.

April in the Plaza
01-11-2023, 05:03 PM
Wow. A lot of possible takeaways from that list.

Here's one: Devon Energy is the 119th largest employer in the state. I would have put it in the top 50 not knowing anything.

Also, the relative scarcity of energy companies in general for a state that is supposedly reliant on them.

(I do realize that employment numbers is not a direct corollary to overall value. 1 Devon job is probably worth 10 Amazon jobs. But still.)

Every Devon job is worth 30-40x an Amazon job based upon the net income an average job represents to each company.

And what you don’t see in the Devon / CHK employment numbers are all of the vendors. There are numerous land service brokerages, engineering and geological consultants, oil service companies and, of course, drilling contractors. That’s a lot of employment that doesn’t show up on “top employer” lists, but the collective headcount and economic impact of those companies is huge.

HOT ROD
01-11-2023, 05:26 PM
From April 2020 to the July 2021 estimate for MSAs, which is the latest actual real estimate we have from the US Census, Oklahoma City grew by 1.12% as compared to .85% for Tulsa.

A .27% gap in growth is not really very large.

And god forbid a Tulsa newspaper would mention Tulsa in an article. Pure insanity. Talk about having a complex.

Swake, nobody is saying that Tulsa newspaper can't mention Tulsa in the article, but it is written to infer that the growth in the state was in Tulsa - which it wasn't. The article should have mentioned the OKC metro area as the vast majority 80% or greater of the growth in the state went there. Tulsans and Tulsa media OFTEN like to shortscape or ignore Oklahoma City unless Tulsa has some advantage or positive by comparison, this is a fact.

The should have just as easily wrote the article as Oklahoma grew to 4 million people in 2022, with the vast majority coming from Tx and elsewhere. Leave it at that, and there's no need to mention OKC where the growth went to. But the article mentioned Tulsa, which was NOT a growth area by any significance and then mentioned "the rest of the state" which was also not a significant growth area but NO MENTION of the actual growth area. This is often the case with Tulsans and Tulsa media, not sure why since OKC growth benefits the state (and Tulsa if it wants to be part of it). Not sure why Tulsan's always want to take the credit or discredit/ignore Oklahoma City. That is what most on here are discussing, not that Tulsa World mentioned Tulsa.

SEMIweather
01-11-2023, 05:37 PM
What I like about this map is how OKC has growth in a number of directions. While there is a bit more to the north, which is expected, there is growth in the south and west as well. This is a good sign for downtown because it is staying more in the population center of the metro area.

Also makes me feel like the Kickapoo Turnpike was built in exactly the right location for Downtown OKC, as it should spur growth on the one side of the Metro that has seen relatively less growth over the last two decades.

Pete
01-11-2023, 05:49 PM
Every Devon job is worth 30-40x an Amazon job based upon the net income an average job represents to each company.

And what you don’t see in the Devon / CHK employment numbers are all of the vendors. There are numerous land service brokerages, engineering and geological consultants, oil service companies and, of course, drilling contractors. That’s a lot of employment that doesn’t show up on “top employer” lists, but the collective headcount and economic impact of those companies is huge.

All businesses have related vendors. And to the extent they are big employers, they would be shown on the list.

I'm not going to do the math on your net income statement but it's irrelevant anyway. Like Amazon, Devon is a publically-traded company. It's not like the income or profit stays in Oklahoma.

What does stay in the state are salaries paid to employees and Amazon is paying many multiples in wages to people living in Oklahoma; and many multiples of any energy company.

stlokc
01-11-2023, 05:58 PM
All businesses have related vendors. And to the extent they are big employers, they would be shown on the list.

I'm not going to do the math on your net income statement but it's irrelevant anyway. Like Amazon, Devon is a publically-traded company. It's not like the income or profit stays in Oklahoma.

What does stay in the state are salaries paid to employees and Amazon is paying many multiples in wages to people living in Oklahoma; and many multiples of any energy company.

I certainly agree with you regarding the vendor equation and that most businesses have them, and would add that in most industries, the higher-status vendors (such as big law firms, accounting firms, consultants etc.) cluster around the corporate offices of companies, which is why 100 Devon jobs would be better than 100 Amazon jobs even if, in some parallel universe, the jobs paid wages of exactly the same amount. You want the HQ operations, you want the C-suite, you want the decision makers in your community.

stlokc
01-11-2023, 06:00 PM
Also makes me feel like the Kickapoo Turnpike was built in exactly the right location for Downtown OKC, as it should spur growth on the one side of the Metro that has seen relatively less growth over the last two decades.

I'm actually having a hard time understanding how this turnpike will spur growth. That's a pretty rural area out there and 90% of the traffic on that turnpike will be thru-traffic. I doubt there are that many commuters that will be in it; it's just not in a natural commuting pattern. There will likely be travel-associated development such as truck stops at intersections but I really doubt that the Kickapoo Turnpike will unleash some giant wave of development on its own.

Pete
01-11-2023, 06:02 PM
I certainly agree with you regarding the vendor equation and that most businesses have them, and would add that in most industries, the higher-status vendors (such as big law firms, accounting firms, consultants etc.) cluster around the corporate offices of companies, which is why 100 Devon jobs would be better than 100 Amazon jobs even if, in some parallel universe, the jobs paid wages of exactly the same amount. You want the HQ operations, you want the C-suite, you want the decision makers in your community.

I agree but we're talking about the difference between 11,000 jobs versus 1,100.

stlokc
01-11-2023, 06:05 PM
I agree but we're talking about the difference between 11,000 jobs versus 1,100.

I take your point. I'm glad we have Amazon. I'm glad we have all those jobs. The best scenario is a healthy mix of all types of employment. Have all the Amazons and all the call centers we can get our hands on but what we don't want is a race to the bottom where everything in OKC is low skill work.

BDP
01-11-2023, 06:40 PM
At the same time, constantly comparing ourselves to those dark days is not a good yardstick if we want to talk about being competitive and bringing in meaningful new employers and having people consider us as a desirable place to move.

Totally agree.

In a lot of ways, the best difference is way less complacency and, honestly, resignation. When I'm thinking "you guys don't know how good you have it", I'm also loving that they care to want to make it better and move it forward and believe that it can. There was a dearth of that for 10 to 15 years, so I would never actually say that to anyone who is looking at something through a higher standard than those dark days, as you say.

The reality is that the city has gotten so much better because certain people decided it can be better, invested in that idea. and worked to make it better. So, even when I'm thinking "you guys don't know how good you have it", I would actually say "if you think it can be better, go make it better. I know that's possible, because I've watched it happen."

That's what it took to get us here and so, it stands to reason, that's what it will take to get us to the next step.

Pete
01-11-2023, 07:47 PM
^

Well said and thankfully there is a lot of civic pride and people who really love OKC and the more of that we get, the more the bar will be raised.

And you can definitely see that happening in almost every respect.

soonerguru
01-11-2023, 08:47 PM
Wow. A lot of possible takeaways from that list.

Here's one: Devon Energy is the 119th largest employer in the state. I would have put it in the top 50 not knowing anything.

Also, the relative scarcity of energy companies in general for a state that is supposedly reliant on them.

(I do realize that employment numbers is not a direct corollary to overall value. 1 Devon job is probably worth 10 Amazon jobs. But still.)

Oil and gas has an outsized influence on state politics going back for a century. Still an important part of our economy for sure, but not nearly what it was and going forward, hopefully less so, because that will make Oklahoma less dependent on a commodity price for its economic well being.

unfundedrick
01-11-2023, 10:38 PM
This is a list of largest employers in the state. Very different than the one put out by the OKC Chamber as they leave out Walmart and others.

https://www.okcommerce.gov/doing-business/data-reports/reports/oklahomas-largest-employers/

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/okemployers1.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/okemployers2.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/okemployers3.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/okemployers4.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/okemployers5.jpg
I have to wonder about the accuracy of that list when they show that Whataburger has more employees than Sonic. The Whataburger website shows 34 locations in all of Oklahoma. Sonic has more than that just in OKC.

Swake
01-11-2023, 10:49 PM
I have to wonder about the accuracy of that list when they show that Whataburger has more employees than Sonic. The Whataburger website shows 34 locations in all of Oklahoma. Sonic has more than that just in OKC.

That may be due to franchising.

April in the Plaza
01-11-2023, 11:07 PM
Very impressive to see the State at #11. Good raw numbers.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_net_migrati on

unfundedrick
01-11-2023, 11:13 PM
That may be due to franchising.

I still find it hard to believe that Whataburger has 2,000 employees in 34 locations unless they count all employees who ever worked there during a year instead of all who are constantly employed at one time. I know they have a large turnover in employees. It's not impossible but I just don't know how they can possibly come up with those kind of figures and be accurate.

SEMIweather
01-11-2023, 11:49 PM
I'm actually having a hard time understanding how this turnpike will spur growth. That's a pretty rural area out there and 90% of the traffic on that turnpike will be thru-traffic. I doubt there are that many commuters that will be in it; it's just not in a natural commuting pattern. There will likely be travel-associated development such as truck stops at intersections but I really doubt that the Kickapoo Turnpike will unleash some giant wave of development on its own.

I don't think it's terribly far out there. Luther Road is only 4 miles further away from Downtown than Garth Brooks Boulevard which has been growing like crazy lately. It doesn't feel out of the question to get a development on par with The Market at Czech Hall or West End Pointe in the I-40/Peebly area someday. I'm sure it's going to take time because the overall road infrastructure in that part of town has a ways to go (it might be more of a land of four-way stops than the Deer Creek/Piedmont area). But, long term I think you'll ultimately see more development out there, especially if the extension and the Indian Hills connector get built.

fortpatches
01-12-2023, 11:24 AM
I still find it hard to believe that Whataburger has 2,000 employees in 34 locations unless they count all employees who ever worked there during a year instead of all who are constantly employed at one time. I know they have a large turnover in employees. It's not impossible but I just don't know how they can possibly come up with those kind of figures and be accurate.

I found a couple posts on reddit saying, e.g., "At my location Dayshift (Breakfast/Lunch) usually anywhere from 11-18. Evening (Dinner/Snack) 8-12 and Early Bird (Overnight) minimum 3 at all times and 9 max. It all depends on the day of the week and business sales."

If we assume that is somewhat accurate then:


16+11+5 = 32/day. If they are part time, they would work a max of 4 shifts. So 8/day *7 days = 56 employees / store.
21x 8hr shifts = 4.2 40hr shifts. So 4x full time managers / store.
56*34 + 4*34 = 2,040 employees for 34 stores for one week.

That means that they would likely have a few full-time employees other than the manager and 2,000 for 34 stores would be a reasonable number.
(I looked at the number of employees needed to staff for one week since that is how full-time/overtime is calculated.)

Bunty
01-12-2023, 03:21 PM
Very impressive to see the State at #11. Good raw numbers.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_net_migrati on

Interesting that Oklahoma is out in front of a nearby popular state, such as Colorado. Probably Colorado isn't as popular as it once was, due to rising cost of living, especially in the Denver area. But would imagine majority of them moving are conservative, aren't ski fans and would prefer to move to Texas. Where I'm from, Stillwater, Colorado isn't among the most commonly seen out of state license plates. More commonly seen is no. 1 Texas, followed by Kansas, California and Arkansas.

GoGators
01-12-2023, 04:56 PM
Interesting that Oklahoma is out in front of a nearby popular state, such as Colorado. Probably Colorado isn't as popular as it once was, due to rising cost of living, especially in the Denver area. But would imagine majority of them moving are conservative, aren't ski fans and would prefer to move to Texas. Where I'm from, Stillwater, Colorado isn't among the most commonly seen out of state license plates. More commonly seen is no. 1 Texas, followed by Kansas, California and Arkansas.

That checks out.

17831

unfundedrick
01-12-2023, 10:00 PM
I found a couple posts on reddit saying, e.g., "At my location Dayshift (Breakfast/Lunch) usually anywhere from 11-18. Evening (Dinner/Snack) 8-12 and Early Bird (Overnight) minimum 3 at all times and 9 max. It all depends on the day of the week and business sales."

If we assume that is somewhat accurate then:


16+11+5 = 32/day. If they are part time, they would work a max of 4 shifts. So 8/day *7 days = 56 employees / store.
21x 8hr shifts = 4.2 40hr shifts. So 4x full time managers / store.
56*34 + 4*34 = 2,040 employees for 34 stores for one week.

That means that they would likely have a few full-time employees other than the manager and 2,000 for 34 stores would be a reasonable number.
(I looked at the number of employees needed to staff for one week since that is how full-time/overtime is calculated.)

If part time employees are being counted, that means the chart is somewhat deceptive even if it's accurate. I go to Whataburger occasionally and they would have to have a lot of part time employees to come up with those figures. I think full time employees or the equivalent would be a much better way to represent a comparison of the companies.

Bunty
01-12-2023, 10:34 PM
That checks out.

17831

Cool. Thanks. I stopped at Arkansas, because other out of state license plates are so commonly less seen, I wouldn't know how to rank the rest of them.

While northern Texas is very huge for the population, with it being no. 2, I wouldn't be surprised Stillwater having jet flights to DFW is more effective in recruiting northern Texas students to OSU than effective in attracting industry and business to Stillwater. Since flights started in 2016, the only news grabbing manufacturer Stillwater has been able to attract is for magnets to employ only 100. The current freshman class as OSU is believed to be the biggest ever.

Decious
03-30-2023, 12:06 PM
Looks like the OKC MSA gained about 15.7K people between 2021-22.

stlokc
03-30-2023, 12:32 PM
I also noticed that, assuming these latest estimates are to be believed, Oklahoma County went above 800,000 for the first time and the state went above 4 million.

Laramie
03-30-2023, 12:43 PM
Looks like the OKC MSA gained about 15.7K people between 2021-22.

Would love for you to share an article or link for the 15,700 gain, thanks...

fortpatches
03-30-2023, 01:52 PM
It was about 13K per Resident Population in Oklahoma City, OK (MSA) (OKCPOP) | FRED | St. Louis Fed (stlouisfed.org) (https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/OKCPOP)
about 15.9k per Oklahoma City (Metropolitan Statistical Area, Metropolitan Areas, USA) - Population Statistics, Charts, Map and Location (citypopulation.de) (https://www.citypopulation.de/en/usa/metro/36420__oklahoma_city/)

Laramie
03-30-2023, 02:10 PM
Has 2021-2022 estimates been released? Those are the previous year which shows a healthy 15,952. . . Those figures ^ are 2020 - 2021.

fortpatches
03-30-2023, 02:21 PM
Has 2021-2022 estimates been released? Those are the previous year which shows a healthy 15,952. . . Those figures ^ are 2020 - 2021.

Ah good catch. I looked at the Census Bureau site and they do not have the numbers for 2022 posted yet.

Metropolitan and Micropolitan Statistical Area Tables (census.gov) (https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/metro-micro/data/tables.2021.List_2143640002.html#list-tab-List_2143640002)

G.Walker
03-30-2023, 02:25 PM
Only media outlets get access to the early data for news purposes. Should be released to the public tomorrow.

Laramie
03-30-2023, 02:31 PM
Wanted to see if Decious caught an early glimpse #2723 of 2022-21 15.7k figures. Okay, the 15.7 K is from 2021-20.

April 1, 2023 as mentioned (G. Walker) we should get some estimates for 2022-2021.

Decious
03-30-2023, 03:56 PM
https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/popest/2020s-counties-total.html#v2022

ComeOnBenjals!
03-30-2023, 05:10 PM
https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/popest/2020s-counties-total.html#v2022

Some interesting tidbits in the that county data. Canadian county is growing like crazy!

BG918
03-30-2023, 05:28 PM
https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/popest/2020s-counties-total.html#v2022

Top 5 counties - cumulative change by number 2020-22
1. Canadian: +14,995
2. Tulsa: +8,086
3. Oklahoma: +5,992
4. Wagoner: +5,658
5. Cleveland: +4,073

Top 5 counties - cumulative change by % 2020-22
1. Canadian: +9.7%
2. McClain: +8.7%
3. Wagoner: +7.0%
4. Logan: +4.8%
5. Bryan: +4.6%

Of note, 36 counties out of 77 lost population from 2020-22. Also, of the statewide population growth of +60,454, 52,453 or 86% was in the OKC and Tulsa metro areas (14 counties).

Metro OKC - 2020-22
1. Canadian: +14,995
2. Oklahoma: +5,992
3. Cleveland: +4,073
4. McClain: +3,639
5. Logan: +2,381
6. Grady: +1,858
7. Lincoln: +728
Total: +33,666

Metro Tulsa - 2020-22
1. Tulsa: +8,086
2. Wagoner: +5,658
3. Rogers: +3,591
4. Creek: +946
5. Okmulgee: +284
6. Pawnee: +206
7. Osage: +16
Total: +18,787

Laramie
03-30-2023, 06:05 PM
.

Good positive growth for Oklahoma's two largest MSA: April 1, we'll get more accurate estimates.


1,475,313 - Oklahoma City (1,441,647 - 2020) +33,666
1,034,118 - Tulsa (1,015,331 - 2020) +18,787

Thanks you, Decious and BIG918

.

Decious
03-30-2023, 07:26 PM
.

Good positive growth for Oklahoma's two largest MSA: April 1, we'll get more accurate estimates.


1,475,313 - Oklahoma City (1,441,647 - 2020) +33,666
1,034,118 - Tulsa (1,015,331 - 2020) +18,787

Thanks you, Decious and BIG918

.

You’re welcome!

This info is accurate.

We’ll get more comprehensive and granular info in May. Anomalous situation brought on by a change in Connecticut.

https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2023/embargo-vintage-2022-population-estimates.html

HOT ROD
04-03-2023, 04:27 AM
Tulsa World should have reported the data like this instead of making it seem like all the growth was in Tulsa with no mention of OKC metro (which is the MAIN growth area). Great work guys.

I find it interesting that Oklahoma county is growing less than Tulsa county, despite OKC itself having the most nominal growth in the state. 15K growth in one year for Canadian county is crazy, OMG.

Bellaboo
04-03-2023, 10:39 AM
Tulsa World should have reported the data like this instead of making it seem like all the growth was in Tulsa with no mention of OKC metro (which is the MAIN growth area). Great work guys.

I find it interesting that Oklahoma county is growing less than Tulsa county, despite OKC itself having the most nominal growth in the state. 15K growth in one year for Canadian county is crazy, OMG.

And the current housing boom in Canadian County is continuing.

Pete
04-03-2023, 11:48 AM
.

Good positive growth for Oklahoma's two largest MSA: April 1, we'll get more accurate estimates.


1,475,313 - Oklahoma City (1,441,647 - 2020) +33,666
1,034,118 - Tulsa (1,015,331 - 2020) +18,787

Thanks you, Decious and BIG918

.

Extrapolated for a decade this is only 10.4% growth for the OKC MSA, well below 13.8% between 2010 and 2020 and 15.7% from 2000 to 2010.

To be considered a legitimate boom town, we need to be over 20% growth per decade.

The extrapolated ten-year growth for Tulsa MSA is 8.2% compared to 8.3% last decade.

chssooner
04-03-2023, 12:07 PM
Extrapolated for a decade this is only 10.4% growth for the OKC MSA, well below 13.8% between 2010 and 2020 and 15.7% from 2000 to 2010.

To be considered a legitimate boom town, we need to be over 20% growth per decade.

The extrapolated ten-year growth for Tulsa MSA is 8.2% compared to 8.3% last decade.

I am ok with OKC not being a full-on boom town. They are growing, but not to the point where city/county/state services are overwhelmed and stretched too thin. Just my opinion.

Pete
04-03-2023, 12:10 PM
Just pointing out that our growth rate seems to be slowing over the last couple of decades, at least as a percentage.

We aren't even in the same world as the big Texas cities.

BG918
04-03-2023, 12:50 PM
10-20% growth is healthy growth. Above 20% starts to strain infrastructure and services, not to mention things like housing and traffic. I’d like to see Tulsa get closer to OKC’s level of metro growth over the next decade. I’d like to see both cities focus more on urban infill growth within city limits and less sprawl into adjacent counties Canadian, Wagoner, etc

chssooner
04-03-2023, 01:09 PM
Just pointing out that our growth rate seems to be slowing over the last couple of decades, at least as a percentage.

We aren't even in the same world as the big Texas cities.

Fair enough. I wasn't meaning to sound defensive.

Will be interesting to see the growth percentages over the decade.

stlokc
04-03-2023, 01:25 PM
10-20% growth is healthy growth. Above 20% starts to strain infrastructure and services, not to mention things like housing and traffic. I’d like to see Tulsa get closer to OKC’s level of metro growth over the next decade. I’d like to see both cities focus more on urban infill growth within city limits and less sprawl into adjacent counties Canadian, Wagoner, etc

Completely agree. I bet OKC could add 10% to its population in this decade without adding much at all to its urbanized area (if it wanted to).

Jake
04-03-2023, 01:25 PM
Getting close to the 1.5 million mark.

G.Walker
04-03-2023, 02:17 PM
We also have to remember these are from 2020-2022; so these are pandemic numbers. Not that many people were moving around then. I am sure 2022-2024 will paint a better picture of population growth.

BoulderSooner
04-03-2023, 02:26 PM
We also have to remember these are from 2020-2022; so these are pandemic numbers. Not that many people were moving around then. I am sure 2022-2024 will paint a better picture of population growth.

i think more people moved in the USA from 2020-2022 then any other 2+ year period in USA history

Plutonic Panda
05-13-2023, 02:31 PM
Interesting: https://apnews.com/article/census-austin-boston-detroit-phoenix-memphis-milwaukee-cb854fb05f87978fd86f143a56d7aac6?utm_source=facebo ok&utm_medium=news_tab

G.Walker
05-13-2023, 04:50 PM
I always wonder why they never recognized a Oklahoma City-Norman Metropolitan area instead of Oklahoma City Metropolitan area. They are 20 miles apart and Norman is the 3rd largest city in the state with a major economic impact and urban center. Is it because Norman doesn't sprawl into a county outside of Cleveland? Like if it sprawled into McClain County that would give it more significance?

For example they identify Austin metro as Austin-Round Rock-Georgetown. Austin and Round Rock are 19 miles apart and Round Rock has 123,000 people.

Laramie
05-13-2023, 05:24 PM
42 Oklahoma City, OK MSA 1,441,647 - 1,425,695 +1.12%

Wikipedia shows the Oklahoma City MSA with the 1,425,695 in the 2020 slot instead of the 2021column or we would have a negative population
decrease instead of an increase.

Metropolitan statistical area: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_statistical_area


.

Snowman
05-13-2023, 06:00 PM
I always wonder why they never recognized a Oklahoma City-Norman Metropolitan area instead of Oklahoma City Metropolitan area. They are 20 miles apart and Norman is the 3rd largest city in the state with a major economic impact and urban center. Is it because Norman doesn't sprawl into a county outside of Cleveland? Like if it sprawled into McClain County that would give it more significance?

For example they identify Austin metro as Austin-Round Rock-Georgetown. Austin and Round Rock are 19 miles apart and Round Rock has 123,000 people.

Norman has long been part of OKC's metropolitan area. Plus examples like Austin's and Atlanta's make it seem questionable throwing in extra names of suburbs, when none of the secondary areas named seem worth highlighting.
The issue is not as much Normal does not sprawl more, the concept even date back before most US cities were even sprawling, though the name was coined around the time that started.
Population and politics are the two ways they might get included, generally to be included it should have at least 1/3rd of the population of the metro, though there is an allowance for if enough people want it to be included up to three can be.

Swake
05-13-2023, 06:06 PM
Norman is already part of OKC's metropolitan area.

I think he's talking about the name the census gives the MSA, that Norman should be considered a second core city instead of a suburb, which I would agree with, and therefore the name should be The Oklahoma City-Norman MSA.

Laramie
05-13-2023, 09:20 PM
Norman's population is 130,000. Oklahoma City-Norman IDK when a city reaches that status--maybe 10% or more of the MSA population.

G.Walker
05-14-2023, 09:19 AM
Oklahoma City was the 12th fastest growing MSA with a population over 1 million from 2020-2021.

2022 population estimates will be released this week, will be interesting to see the new numbers.

https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2023/embargo-metropolitan-micropolitan-population-estimates.html

BoulderSooner
05-14-2023, 08:41 PM
I think he's talking about the name the census gives the MSA, that Norman should be considered a second core city instead of a suburb, which I would agree with, and therefore the name should be The Oklahoma City-Norman MSA.

what is the threshold for this to happen?

Just the facts
05-15-2023, 01:39 AM
I think Norman is excluded from the name because Norman doesn't have a more significant impact on the surrounding communities and rural areas than OKC does. This probably a result of both OKC and Norman having such large city limits.

For comparison, Norman is 189 sq miles; Round Rock, TX is only 38 sq miles. When you do the math Round Rock is 5X more dense. Norman's 750 people per sq mile isn't going to help. With Moore's 2900 people per sq mile it will be the OKC-Moore MSA long before Norman will be included. Even Edmond is significantly more dense than Norman.

BG918
05-15-2023, 07:21 AM
^ Norman has a ridiculously large city limits because of Lake Thunderbird. A good chunk of “Norman” is either protected watershed or flood plain along the Canadian River.

Just the facts
05-15-2023, 08:57 AM
^ Norman has a ridiculously large city limits because of Lake Thunderbird. A good chunk of “Norman” is either protected watershed or flood plain along the Canadian River.

Yeah, but doesn't change the fact that it screws up the math. If Norman city limits were 25 sq miles it would probably already be the OKC-Norman MSA.

KayneMo
05-15-2023, 09:34 AM
Here's the criteria for naming of MSAs and CSAs:

E. 2020 Standards for Delineating Core Based Statistical Areas, and Key Terms
.....
Section 5. Identification of Principal Cities
The Principal City (or Cities) of a CBSA will include:
(a) The largest incorporated place with a 2020 Census population of at least 10,000 in the CBSA or, if no incorporated place of at least 10,000 population is present in the CBSA, the largest incorporated place or census designated place in the CBSA; and
(b) Any additional incorporated place or census designated place with a 2020 Census population of at least 250,000 or in which 100,000 or more persons work; and
(c) Any additional incorporated place or census designated place with a 2020 Census population of at least 50,000, but less than 250,000, and in which the number of workers working in the place meets or exceeds the number of workers living in the place; and
(d) Any additional incorporated place or census designated place with a 2020 Census population of at least 10,000, but less than 50,000, and at least one-third the
population size of the largest place, and in which the number of workers working in the place meets or exceeds the number of workers living in the place.
.....
Section 9. Titles of Core Based Statistical Areas, Metropolitan Divisions, and Combined Statistical Areas
(a) The title of a CBSA will include the name of its Principal City with the largest 2020 Census population. If there are multiple Principal Cities, the names of the second largest and (if present) third-largest Principal Cities will appear in the title in order of descending population size. If the Principal City with the largest 2020 Census population is a census designated place, the name of the largest incorporated place of at least 10,000 population that also is a Principal City will appear first in the title followed by the name of the census designated place. If the Principal City with the largest 2020 Census population is a census designated place, and there is no incorporated place of at least 10,000 population that also is a Principal City, the name of that census designated place Principal City will appear first in the title.
(b) The title of a Metropolitan Division will include the name of the Principal City with the largest 2020 Census population located in the Metropolitan Division. If there are multiple Principal Cities, the names of the second-largest and (if present) third-largest Principal Cities will appear in the title in order of descending population size. If there are no Principal Cities located in the Metropolitan Division, the title of the Metropolitan Division will use the names of up to three counties in order of descending 2020 Census population size.
(c) The title of a Combined Statistical Area will include the names of the two largest Principal Cities in the combination and the name of the third-largest Principal City, if present. If the Combined Statistical Area title duplicates that of one of its component CBSAs, the name of the third-most-populous Principal City will be dropped from the title of the Combined Statistical Area.
(d) Titles also will include the names of any State in which the area is located.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2021-07-16/pdf/2021-15159.pdf

KayneMo
05-15-2023, 09:50 AM
Norman meets the population condition but apparently not the employment condition.

G.Walker
05-15-2023, 10:17 AM
I don't think it has do with density. Norman is a core city and has a major economic impact to the metro area. University of Oklahoma and Norman Regional Hospital are the biggest employers, and they employ thousands in the region. Also, it is becoming a commercial center for shopping with University Town Center. I think it focuses more on economic impact and commuter percentage from surrounding cities.

And does Norman rely heavily on OKC for anything? Norman has always been a little different and done their own thing.