I know. The cities are gaining population from the rural areas. But the state itself is gaining population. so it isn't just internal migration in Oklahoma, but also eternal into Oklahoma.

But most of Oklahoma outside of Oklahoma City and Tulsa is dying.

Since 2010 Tulsa's MSA added 86,510 people and OKC's added 188,660 people. The entire rest of the state lost 61,609. Almost 2/3rds of Oklahomans now live in the two metros. Oklahoma is no longer a rural state.

But most of Oklahoma outside of Oklahoma City and Tulsa is dying.

Since 2010 Tulsa's MSA added 86,510 people and OKC's added 188,660 people. The entire rest of the state lost 61,609. Almost 2/3rds of Oklahomans now live in the two metros. Oklahoma is no longer a rural state.

And yet we still have this awful rurally driven legislature making a mockery of our state with their stupidity and shameful idiocy. How much longer before we at least have some degree of political balance / sanity? Asking for lots of friends who are considering G'ingTFO of Oklahoma.

But most of Oklahoma outside of Oklahoma City and Tulsa is dying.

Since 2010 Tulsa's MSA added 86,510 people and OKC's added 188,660 people. The entire rest of the state lost 61,609. Almost 2/3rds of Oklahomans now live in the two metros. Oklahoma is no longer a rural state.

Not sure you added anything to my comment, other than additional facts and figures (which are good to have).

And yet we still have this awful rurally driven legislature making a mockery of our state with their stupidity and shameful idiocy. How much longer before we at least have some degree of political balance / sanity? Asking for lots of friends who are considering G'ingTFO of Oklahoma.

Until voter turnout in the core of the urban areas can shake the rest of the state's dominant hold...it is what it is.

It’s primarily a function of how the districts are drawn.

Much like gerrymanding that ensures OK’s congressional districts remain completely GOP. Realistically probably 2 out of the 5 should be Democratic.

The same things happen at the state level. It’s just lower profile so it flies under the radar.

Not sure you added anything to my comment, other than additional facts and figures (which are good to have).

My point is that Oklahoma is not growing, its cities are. The rest of the state is far from growing. If anything the overall state and government are impeding growth.

And yet we still have this awful rurally driven legislature making a mockery of our state with their stupidity and shameful idiocy. How much longer before we at least have some degree of political balance / sanity? Asking for lots of friends who are considering G'ingTFO of Oklahoma.

What's all that bad about Oklahoma, especially in relation to other states? Unlike Kansas and Texas, Oklahoma has legal casinos. One of them is one of the biggest in the world, if not the very biggest. Oklahoma has the most liberal medical marijuana program in the country. In March vote yes to legalize rec marijuana and lots of people from Texas and Kansas will be crossing the border to buy some and raising tax revenue. To help with food inflation, Oklahoma needs to finally abolish sales tax on groceries and that would help offset it. Oklahoma isn't able to draw much industry from the outside, so needs to continue trying to grow its own industry within the state.

Be thankful that rural legislators and rural voters haven't been able to put a stop to making things legal mentioned above. Besides that, modernized alcohol laws went into effect in October 2018, and that helped a lot. If Oklahomans want to do more to make Oklahoma yet a better state, then they need to do more with petitions for yes votes on progressive issues. It's interesting how since 2014 Oklahomans have been far more interested in petitioning to get med or rec marijuana legalized while not one petition has been about raising the min. wage. As a result, the min. wage in Oklahoma is still at $7.25, while in Arkansas it's clear up to $11.00.

Rural legislators in Texas have also been making a mockery of their state, such as banning abortion. Yet, Texas continues as one of the fastest growing states.

And yet we still have this awful rurally driven legislature making a mockery of our state with their stupidity and shameful idiocy. How much longer before we at least have some degree of political balance / sanity? Asking for lots of friends who are considering G'ingTFO of Oklahoma.

LOL, since when weren't lots of people considering G'ingTFO of Oklahoma!?

LOL, since when weren't lots of people considering G'ingTFO of Oklahoma!?

The vast majority of my friends I went to OU with have moved out of Oklahoma. Working in the hospitality industry for decades I have seen a huge amount of the best and brightest members of my staff eventually move on to positions outside of the state at various restaurants. I understand this is my subjective experience, but over the last two decades I have been here I have seen a lot of college educated people leave.

Some people are moving INTO Texas and Oklahoma simply because their laws are NOT as progressive as other states. Some of these people moving in WANT to be in states that are not as politically progressive. I know several of these families. It's interesting to see how the pandemic highlighted government policies that motivated many to move--just look at the growth Florida saw during that time. And it seems as if this is only going to increase. People are looking for governmental policies and cultural values that match their own preferences. Which is fine. Many people in "blue" states could NEVER imagine living in a "red" states and vice versa. If moving isn't an option, people can always get politically active and work towards change.

Some people are moving INTO Texas and Oklahoma simply because their laws are NOT as progressive as other states. Some of these people moving in WANT to be in states that are not as politically progressive. I know several of these families. It's interesting to see how the pandemic highlighted government policies that motivated many to move--just look at the growth Florida saw during that time. And it seems as if this is only going to increase. People are looking for governmental policies and cultural values that match their own preferences. Which is fine. Many people in "blue" states could NEVER imagine living in a "red" states and vice versa. If moving isn't an option, people can always get politically active and work towards change.
For those of us who would like to stay, we would rather not have people move in who have little to contribute whose personal politics are stifling to economic and social progress and competing in the real world, and who do not believe in education or the arts either. Or those who believe freedom, independence and choice is only for them and their tribe.

I understand this is my subjective experience, but over the last two decades I have been here I have seen a lot of college educated people leave.

I don't doubt that, but I can guarantee you it's a lot less than in the two decades before that.

It was some time ago (ten years or so?), but I believe the Gazette had an article about the changing age demographics in OKC and the one age group that had grown the most, percentage wise, was people in their 20s. It is so much "younger" than it was in the 90s for sure. I'm in no way saying it's like Austin or Denver, etc,, but it's changed a lot in that direction.

Some people are moving INTO Texas and Oklahoma simply because their laws are NOT as progressive as other states. Some of these people moving in WANT to be in states that are not as politically progressive. I know several of these families. It's interesting to see how the pandemic highlighted government policies that motivated many to move--just look at the growth Florida saw during that time. And it seems as if this is only going to increase. People are looking for governmental policies and cultural values that match their own preferences. Which is fine. Many people in "blue" states could NEVER imagine living in a "red" states and vice versa. If moving isn't an option, people can always get politically active and work towards change.

The updated Census estimates showed, red states growing blue states shrinking.

17798

The updated Census estimates showed, red states growing blue states shrinking.

17798

If that estimate is accurate, Oklahoma got over the 4 million mark in 2022.

The updated Census estimates showed, red states growing blue states shrinking.

17798

Things are more expensive in those particular blue states. Taxes are higher, gas prices are higher. So while there are benefits to living there socially, tminflation over the last 1.5 years has driven people to cheaper states, where they have more buying power. Ideally, they would turn the state purple, but not enough young liberals in Oklahoma vote. So it has stayed red.

If that estimate is accurate, Oklahoma got over the 4 million mark in 2022.

Oklahoma's official 2022 Census estimate is 4,019.800

https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/OK,US/PST045222

Things are more expensive in those particular blue states. Taxes are higher, gas prices are higher. So while there are benefits to living there socially, tminflation over the last 1.5 years has driven people to cheaper states, where they have more buying power. Ideally, they would turn the state purple, but not enough young liberals in Oklahoma vote. So it has stayed red.

There could be hundreds of reasons why. The statement red states growing blue states shrinking is true for 19/20 on that list. (Louisiana being the exception).

It's also interesting Oklahoma grew more than Colorado or Oregon last year. Two states i often hear people compare OK against.

In addition to rising prices and lack of housing opportunity, there are other issues such as constant wildfires in the west, major droughts, changes to VISA requirements and college acceptance, etc. Lots of things to analyze beyond red vs. blue.

At the end of the day though it is amazing that people are choosing to move to OK. Housing aside, it's not THAT much cheaper to live here after you factor in all the taxes. The quality of life here is often much lower than other places unless you live in the heart of OKC or Tulsa and seek things out. Education in this state is circling the drain and getting worse all the time. I have often presumed that our failing schools will eventually be the death of the state, but it hasn't happened yet obviously.

Moved to OKC in August to take a new job and I’m so glad I did. After spending 21 years in Texas, I was over it for various reasons. None of the large cities in Texas appeal to me the way OKC does, and the transition from Texas to Oklahoma was very easy.

In addition to rising prices and lack of housing opportunity, there are other issues such as constant wildfires in the west, major droughts, changes to VISA requirements and college acceptance, etc. Lots of things to analyze beyond red vs. blue.

At the end of the day though it is amazing that people are choosing to move to OK. Housing aside, it's not THAT much cheaper to live here after you factor in all the taxes. The quality of life here is often much lower than other places unless you live in the heart of OKC or Tulsa and seek things out. Education in this state is circling the drain and getting worse all the time. I have often presumed that our failing schools will eventually be the death of the state, but it hasn't happened yet obviously.

Definitely wish we’d invest more into each student. But I would assume most of the young executive types (and holders of capital) are completely immune from the State’s public school situation.

Premiums for homeowners insurance are the highest in the country. Full goverage auto insurance is 38% higher than the national average. Not everything is cheaper here

Premiums for homeowners insurance are the highest in the country. Full goverage auto insurance is 38% higher than the national average. Not everything is cheaper hete

Plus the median income is still below the national average, so the longer you are on an Oklahoma wage, the more money you are leaving on the table. Of course, if you can't afford housing in any of the high earner states, the point is moot.

Plus the median income is still below the national average, so the longer you are on an Oklahoma wage, the more money you are leaving on the table. Of course, if you can't afford housing in any of the high earner states, the point is moot.

Life is how you make it in Oklahoma. If young and struggling with a low paying job, then it's up to you to find or get prepared for a higher paying job. Those you don't follow that advice figure in bringing down the quality-of-life statistics for Oklahoma.

In addition to rising prices and lack of housing opportunity, there are other issues such as constant wildfires in the west, major droughts, changes to VISA requirements and college acceptance, etc. Lots of things to analyze beyond red vs. blue.

At the end of the day though it is amazing that people are choosing to move to OK. Housing aside, it's not THAT much cheaper to live here after you factor in all the taxes. The quality of life here is often much lower than other places unless you live in the heart of OKC or Tulsa and seek things out. Education in this state is circling the drain and getting worse all the time. I have often presumed that our failing schools will eventually be the death of the state, but it hasn't happened yet obviously.

"Education in this state is circling the drain and getting worse all the time." At least there is a rare exception to that rule in Stillwater. In recent years it has replaced all of its older elementary schools with new ones, three altogether. Next big school project there is to replace the old high school with a new one from getting a $195 million bond issue voter approved in Feb. 2023.

I believe Edmond and Norman schools are highly regarded and far from circling the drain.

For those of us who would like to stay, we would rather not have people move in who have little to contribute whose personal politics are stifling to economic and social progress and competing in the real world, and who do not believe in education or the arts either. Or those who believe freedom, independence and choice is only for them and their tribe.

None of the people who lean towards the red side of the ledger or are firmly red do not fit your description in my experience. Mobility is a free market component.

Moved to OKC in August to take a new job and I’m so glad I did. After spending 21 years in Texas, I was over it for various reasons. None of the large cities in Texas appeal to me the way OKC does, and the transition from Texas to Oklahoma was very easy.

It's great to hear that! Too bad, though, you'll have to become familiar with paying Oklahoma income taxes. With Oklahoma state legislators, so far, finding it too much of a challenge from being able to figure out how to abolish sales taxes on groceries and restaurant meals, I sure don't expect them to abolish the Oklahoma state income tax anytime soon. At least it isn't as much as in many other states. State legislature might at least be able to reduce it a little in 2023. I tend to believe that Oklahoma needs to abolish the state income tax to compete better with other states, such as Texas. But figuring out how to make up for lost revenue is a big challenge. Taxing services isn't seen as a popular option.

There could be hundreds of reasons why. The statement red states growing blue states shrinking is true for 19/20 on that list. (Louisiana being the exception).

It's also interesting Oklahoma grew more than Colorado or Oregon last year. Two states i often hear people compare OK against.

A lot of people, while greatly driving up the cost of living, move to Colorado and Oregon, due to the great mountain scenery. From there you got great hiking during the summer and great skiing during the winter. Mt. Hood looks nice from Portland, OR.

Years ago, after visiting Colorado Springs, I was so impressed by the awesome scenery of Pikes Peak, along with the Garden of the Gods, I considered moving there but didn't. I was just too much of an Oklahoma homebody at heart. I didn't want a total upheaval of my native Oklahoma roots. Nobody else in my family did. Anyway, if by now, more people are finding the high cost of living in or moving to mountain scenery too high to accept, I'm not too surprised. A lot of people in California are also finding the high cost of living close to mountain scenery as well as Pacific beaches too much to live with, let alone outsiders to move to.

Things are more expensive in those particular blue states. Taxes are higher, gas prices are higher. So while there are benefits to living there socially, tminflation over the last 1.5 years has driven people to cheaper states, where they have more buying power. Ideally, they would turn the state purple, but not enough young liberals in Oklahoma vote. So it has stayed red.

Actually, not enough young people in OK vote, period - completely pathetic.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/76-of-voters-30-and-younger-didnt-vote-in-oklahomas-november-midterm-election/article_896a5598-7cb2-11ed-9f35-2fdb3f2989fe.html

Actually, not enough young people in OK vote, period - completely pathetic.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/76-of-voters-30-and-younger-didnt-vote-in-oklahomas-november-midterm-election/article_896a5598-7cb2-11ed-9f35-2fdb3f2989fe.html

Fair point. I do hope more young people vote, Republicans and Democrats. I may be slightly liberal, but I want the future of this country to use their right to vote, even if it doesn't go my way.

A lot of people, while greatly driving up the cost of living, move to Colorado and Oregon, due to the great mountain scenery. From there you got great hiking during the summer and great skiing during the winter. Mt. Hood looks nice from Portland, OR.

Years ago, after visiting Colorado Springs, I was so impressed by the awesome scenery of Pikes Peak, along with the Garden of the Gods, I considered moving there but didn't. I was just too much of an Oklahoma homebody at heart. I didn't want a total upheaval of my native Oklahoma roots. Nobody else in my family did. Anyway, if by now, more people are finding the high cost of living in or moving to mountain scenery too high to accept, I'm not too surprised. A lot of people in California are also finding the high cost of living close to mountain scenery as well as Pacific beaches too much to live with, let alone outsiders to move to.

and taxes, and crime, and homelessness and crazy laws and regulations.

Im just glad the state’s population is increasing and not decreasing. *shrugs*

It's great to hear that! Too bad, though, you'll have to become familiar with paying Oklahoma income taxes. With Oklahoma state legislators, so far, finding it too much of a challenge from being able to figure out how to abolish sales taxes on groceries and restaurant meals, I sure don't expect them to abolish the Oklahoma state income tax anytime soon. At least it isn't as much as in many other states. State legislature might at least be able to reduce it a little in 2023. I tend to believe that Oklahoma needs to abolish the state income tax to compete better with other states, such as Texas. But figuring out how to make up for lost revenue is a big challenge. Taxing services isn't seen as a popular option.

Oklahoma already has a lower overall tax burden than Texas even with a state income tax.

"Education in this state is circling the drain and getting worse all the time." At least there is a rare exception to that rule in Stillwater. In recent years it has replaced all of its older elementary schools with new ones, three altogether. Next big school project there is to replace the old high school with a new one from getting a $195 million bond issue voter approved in Feb. 2023.

I believe Edmond and Norman schools are highly regarded and far from circling the drain.

I've lived in 17 states.
Every single one of them has this attitude. Every. Single. One.

I've lived in 17 states.
Every single one of them has this attitude. Every. Single. One.

Attitudes don't count quite as much as facts do, and that quote actually has quite a bit of reality behind it - education funding cuts (both higher and K-12) in OK are horrible:

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/education/oklahoma-leads-nation-in-deepest-cuts-to-school-funding-for-third-straight-year/article_cc32da19-3b01-512e-b03b-1e1e0119c83c.html

https://okpolicy.org/oklahoma-among-worst-states-for-higher-education-cuts-harming-students-who-already-face-the-greatest-barriers/

Actually, not enough young people in OK vote, period - completely pathetic.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/76-of-voters-30-and-younger-didnt-vote-in-oklahomas-november-midterm-election/article_896a5598-7cb2-11ed-9f35-2fdb3f2989fe.html

Does voting actually matter? I've been alive over 40 years and it hasn't mattered which party is in control, the big government, more taxes war machine rolls on. NEITHER party gives a rip about the common man. Dems and repubs are both scum

Sorry, I don't mean to hijack this thread. Just everyday I'm alive the more I realize what I said above is true.

Does voting actually matter? I've been alive over 40 years and it hasn't mattered which party is in control, the big government, more taxes war machine rolls on. NEITHER party gives a rip about the common man. Dems and repubs are both scum

Sorry, I don't mean to hijack this thread. Just everyday I'm alive the more I realize what I said above is true.

Yeah, I actually kinda agree, but I still vote in every election I'm eligible to (and have for 39 years) - sometimes it matters, but pretty much only locally and not in the great scheme of things.

Moved to OKC in August to take a new job and I’m so glad I did. After spending 21 years in Texas, I was over it for various reasons. None of the large cities in Texas appeal to me the way OKC does, and the transition from Texas to Oklahoma was very easy.

I have to agree. Austin at one time would have been a terrific place to live, but it is just insanely expensive now. If you can afford $1 million for a ranch home I guess it's still a very nice place to live.

Dallas has a lot going for it but it's just never felt as warm as OKC and it's certainly not as earthy as OKC.

The only city in Texas that kind of weirdly seems like it would be a good place to live is San Antonio, but I would hate to live someplace where my property taxes may dramatically go up year after year.

We do have extremely low property taxes here, and, at least income tax is based on what you actually make. Texas just fees people to death and confiscates massive sums of money though property taxes. I know people who could no longer afford their property taxes on homes they could easily afford the mortgage for in Texas, so they had to sell their homes.

if you make 300k or more a year then the lack of a state income tax in Texas suddenly negates the concern over the confiscatory property taxes.

Does voting actually matter? I've been alive over 40 years and it hasn't mattered which party is in control, the big government, more taxes war machine rolls on. NEITHER party gives a rip about the common man. Dems and repubs are both scum

Sorry, I don't mean to hijack this thread. Just everyday I'm alive the more I realize what I said above is true.

Yes, it does. There are often dramatically different candidates with dramatically different character who want to do dramatically different things. Some of the things they want to do are bad. Some of them are good.

Perhaps your life is so secure you don't face imminent threats to your safety, so you see all pols as the same. Whenever someone says this it tells me they have surface-level information about competing candidates and ideas.

It is also indicates that you may not recognize things that have been accomplished by elected officials that are good, and there are many examples throughout history.

In the larger view, different policies produce different results, and some are superior to others. So, you should always vote for the best candidate with the highest degree of personal character, because we need good people in office. This is a non-partisan statement.

Attitudes don't count quite as much as facts do, and that quote actually has quite a bit of reality behind it - education funding cuts (both higher and K-12) in OK are horrible:

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/education/oklahoma-leads-nation-in-deepest-cuts-to-school-funding-for-third-straight-year/article_cc32da19-3b01-512e-b03b-1e1e0119c83c.html

https://okpolicy.org/oklahoma-among-worst-states-for-higher-education-cuts-harming-students-who-already-face-the-greatest-barriers/

The point is it's not a unique thought or factor. Everywhere thinks their education system sucks.

In reality they're all about the same and home life is the determining factor.

Yes, it does. There are often dramatically different candidates with dramatically different character who want to do dramatically different things. Some of the things they want to do are bad. Some of them are good.

Perhaps your life is so secure you don't face imminent threats to your safety, so you see all pols as the same. Whenever someone says this it tells me they have surface-level information about competing candidates and ideas.

It is also indicates that you may not recognize things that have been accomplished by elected officials that are good, and there are many examples throughout history.

In the larger view, different policies produce different results, and some are superior to others. So, you should always vote for the best candidate with the highest degree of personal character, because we need good people in office. This is a non-partisan statement.

I can almost agree with all of this. The problem, though, is all the politicians whether good or bad people become major scum once they get to Washington. I think the solution to our problems, and this was somewhat mentioned above, is local elections. Vote your ass off in local elections and turn your school board, city, county, state whichever way you want it (Blue or Red) and hopefully eliminate most of the dependence on the Federal Govt.

IThe problem, though, is all the politicians whether good or bad people become major scum once they get to Washington. I think the solution to our problems, and this was somewhat mentioned above, is local elections. Vote your ass off in local elections and turn your school board, city, county, state whichever way you want it (Blue or Red) and hopefully eliminate most of the dependence on the Federal Govt.

I doubt you have much actual knowledge of what any of your or other politicians in Washington actually do or who they really are. Your broad-brush condemnation and cynicism is lazy. It is easier to lump everyone together and damn them than to actually analyze good and bad. This is the way things are in our society today.... damn the institutions, damn the people who look different, damn the people who are from a different place, damn the people who think differently than me. Lump everyone together and excuse yourself for not knowing anything about them individually.

Eliminate dependance on Federal Govt. LOL. People ignore the infrastructure that allows them to grow and prosper and protects them from foreign AND DOMESTIC threats. They want to be protected from predator businesses and unethical organizations. They forget what actually protects and enables them.... until they need something from them. If you think your school board and county commissioners are going to lead you... well heaven help you.

Attitudes don't count quite as much as facts do, and that quote actually has quite a bit of reality behind it - education funding cuts (both higher and K-12) in OK are horrible:

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/education/oklahoma-leads-nation-in-deepest-cuts-to-school-funding-for-third-straight-year/article_cc32da19-3b01-512e-b03b-1e1e0119c83c.html

https://okpolicy.org/oklahoma-among-worst-states-for-higher-education-cuts-harming-students-who-already-face-the-greatest-barriers/

As for cutting higher education funding, I think state legislators are expecting alumni to fork over the money to fund the construction of new buildings and other expenses. As for OSU's New Frontiers Agriculture Hall now under construction, more than 87 percent of the $50 million fundraising goal had been met as of last spring with the support of more than 330 generous donors. The campaign kicked off in January 2020 with a lead gift of $25 million to the building project from Kayleen and Larry Ferguson and the Ferguson Family Foundation. The Fergusons joined fellow Cornerstone Donors — those who committed to gifts of $1 million or more — at the event to participate in the ceremonial groundbreaking. Fundraising for the $100 million facility continues, and a variety of naming opportunities within the building remain available. But for all I know that is nothing new and is how OSU has secured funding for its new buildings for many decades. These days more alumni have grown older and have more money to give than ever before. As a reflection of how that seems to be, OSU's new business building certainly looks a lot more impressive than the bland looking old one built during the 1960s.

But it surely makes Oklahoma look even worse for not providing adequate funding for grades K-12. Maybe I missed it, but never heard of graduates of high schools and elementary schools wanting to help fund to replace their old schools with new ones.

and taxes, and crime, and homelessness and crazy laws and regulations.

But after all of the above, oddly enough in states ranked for happiness, California is ranked no. 6, while Oklahoma is way down there at no. 48. Another survey puts California at no. 14 and Oklahoma no. 45. Surely California people are mighty happy with their great year-round weather, gorgeous mountain scenery, beaches and great wineries.

https://usabynumbers.com/states-ranked-by-happiness/#:~:text=All%2050%20US%20States%20Ranked%20by%20Ha ppiness%20%5BReport,%20%2064.10%20%2046%20more%20r ows%20

I doubt you have much actual knowledge of what any of your or other politicians in Washington actually do or who they really are. Your broad-brush condemnation and cynicism is lazy. It is easier to lump everyone together and damn them than to actually analyze good and bad. This is the way things are in our society today.... damn the institutions, damn the people who look different, damn the people who are from a different place, damn the people who think differently than me. Lump everyone together and excuse yourself for not knowing anything about them individually.

Eliminate dependance on Federal Govt. LOL. People ignore the infrastructure that allows them to grow and prosper and protects them from foreign AND DOMESTIC threats. They want to be protected from predator businesses and unethical organizations. They forget what actually protects and enables them.... until they need something from them. If you think your school board and county commissioners are going to lead you... well heaven help you.

Maybe you can change my mind. Name one politician who has made YOUR life better with his or her legislation. Be VERY specific with your example(s). Because I can name 100 who have made mine worse with highly specific examples and bills.

Maybe you can change my mind. Name one politician who has made YOUR life better with his or her legislation. Be VERY specific with your example(s). Because I can name 100 who have made mine worse with highly specific examples and bills.

As appealing as your challenge is, it’s another fools game invitation. I refuse to wrestle in the mud for no purpose.

The point is it's not a unique thought or factor. Everywhere thinks their education system sucks.

In reality they're all about the same and home life is the determining factor.

No, they're *not* all about the same, didn't you read the articles? Doesn't matter what people think, facts are facts and the facts above show that some municipalities fund their education systems better than others, and some actively de-fund their education systems.

So, how much should we spend on education? Does the dollar amount really make a better education? US spends more per student than any other country, I think, $12,800 in 2017. Portugal spends like $8,700 per student, about a grand more than OK, but blows our kids (nation) out of the water in rankings. I don't have a dog in the fight as I do not have kids, but I do care that on the world stage we are woefully behind other developed nations with our greatly funded, but crap education.

So, how much should we spend on education? Does the dollar amount really make a better education? US spends more per student than any other country, I think, $12,800 in 2017. Portugal spends like $8,700 per student, about a grand more than OK, but blows our kids (nation) out of the water in rankings. I don't have a dog in the fight as I do not have kids, but I do care that on the world stage we are woefully behind other developed nations with our greatly funded, but crap education.

I don't have kids either, but we need to spend smarter. Also, politicians need to be *for* education, at every turn, and we need to treat our teachers and school staff as we do our IT staff and stock traders and CEOs, in pay and respect and support. We do none of that here in the US.

It's almost like we should just scrap the entire secondary education system after a certain point, maybe middle school? It does very little to prepare and teach actual adult/life skills. Not to mention the quality of teachers is very underwhelming as a whole. Of course the requirements/pay have always been minimal so what do we expect. I have a current client that just went under contract yesterday who is a public school teacher and it's unreal to me that this client has a public teaching position here in OK.

It's almost like we should just scrap the entire secondary education system after a certain point, maybe middle school? It does very little to prepare and teach actual adult/life skills. Not to mention the quality of teachers is very underwhelming as a whole. Of course the requirements/pay have always been minimal so what do we expect. I have a current client that just went under contract yesterday who is a public school teacher and it's unreal to me that this client has a public teaching position here in OK.

Shhhhh.....quiet....you may reveal the plan.

I think certain leadership at various levels wants public education to fall flat on its face, place the blame on teachers in the classroom. Makes it easier to bring in a corporation or similar that can run schools like a business.

It amazes me how many people actually prefer to not place a priority on education. The US keeps slipping in many competitive arenas in the world and Oklahoma drags itself to the bottom of the US and seems proud of it. The anti education and anti critical thinking crowd keeps growing here it seems. Being the cheapest is championed over being the most prepared and brightest.

It amazes me how many people actually prefer to not place a priority on education. The US keeps slipping in many competitive arenas in the world and Oklahoma drags itself to the bottom of the US and seems proud of it. The anti education and anti critical thinking crowd keeps growing here it seems. Being the cheapest is championed over being the most prepared and brightest.

Yep

I read a rather apalling article on the tremendous bloat in administrative/bureaucratic roles in universities across the country as a major cause of unpayable college costs. Maybe there should be a thorough look at public school systems and administrative bloat? Every school system in OK has administration. Maybe consolidate a few small systems? Eliminate a handful of unneeded administrators and you have a small teacher lay raise. I could name a few other things but trying not to get political.

I read a rather apalling article on the tremendous bloat in administrative/bureaucratic roles in universities across the country as a major cause of unpayable college costs. Maybe there should be a thorough look at public school systems and administrative bloat? Every school system in OK has administration. Maybe consolidate a few small systems? Eliminate a handful of unneeded administrators and you have a small teacher lay raise. I could name a few other things but trying not to get political.
It doesn't seem politically popular to consolidate the administrations of at least several small neighboring school districts into one. It probably wouldn't do much good to better fund education, since legislators would find it as a convenient way to further cut funding for education. But then I don't see how it's in the best interest of legislators to further cut funding for education under any circumstances, since the agenda with many of them is to pass a law to provide vouchers for private schools. I can't get enthused about such a plan, since I have to pay property taxes so new local public schools can be built to replace old ones, yet legislators want to pass a law for vouchers for private schools to entice students away from new public-school buildings that have cost millions of dollars to build.

State may want to consider 'extra' funds in the amount of say 5% or 15% (Three year period) for Districts that merge (Consolidate) into one.
Extend it to 20% (Three year period) if they merge with the State's two largest districts (Tulsa and Oklahoma City). Those current
superintendents of districts that merge could become deputy superintendents (Pay - hold harmless) until those individuals retire; then the restructuring could take place.


Tennessee - 141 school districts.
Kansas - 287 school districts.
New Mexico 129 school districts.
Colorado 178 school districts.
Oklahoma 509 school districts.

Oklahoma should set a target to reduce its school districts below 300 by 2030.

Cities MSA the size of Oklahoma City with public school enrollments:


1,566,487 - Milwaukee 78,683
1,448,411 - Raleigh 159,802
1,425,695 - Oklahoma City 31,026
1,336,103 - Memphis 110,780
1,324,062 - Richmond 22,000
1,023,988 - Tulsa 32,569 (Oklahoma's largest district)

Need to determine what would be an optimum number of students for cities of similar size.

Consolidation needs to happen. It’s a huge issue.

I read a rather apalling article on the tremendous bloat in administrative/bureaucratic roles in universities across the country as a major cause of unpayable college costs. Maybe there should be a thorough look at public school systems and administrative bloat? Every school system in OK has administration. Maybe consolidate a few small systems? Eliminate a handful of unneeded administrators and you have a small teacher lay raise. I could name a few other things but trying not to get political.

Consolidation will never happen because it is a very unpopular proposition in the rural areas of the state and the majority of state lawmakers represent these rural areas. They will not touch this topic.

The consolidation argument is a red herring. It’s a convenient excuse some use for the lack of funding our schools receive. There is a reason why the people who point to consolidation as the answer to our funding problems also have had super majorities in all of state government for 20+ years and have never done anything about it.

Personally, I am not against consolidation, but it’s just not going to happen. Plus, if it were to happen it wouldn’t move the needle at all on the state’s lack of funding for public schools. There’s just not that much money in admin costs to make a difference.

Spending per student in K-12 public schools: https://usafacts.org/data/topics/people-society/education/k-12-education/spending-per-student-in-k-12-public-schools/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=ND-StatsData&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI5pmK2tyn_AIVmBXUAR2p0gjQEAAYASAA EgIM1_D_BwE

The point is it's not a unique thought or factor. Everywhere thinks their education system sucks.

In reality they're all about the same and home life is the determining factor.

If the school systems are all about the same and the varying results of those systems are determined by home life, what are the determining factors of home life that result in those variances?

I don't think a single, solitary company gives a single crap what states spend on this stuff. I don't think it affects things as much as people on here want it to. Company press releases may say it does, but it all comes down to money given to them (or saved for them).