Turner to a full 6 lanes between okc and tulsa has already been announced and funded

And it's going to be fantastic!

I rarely see California plates. The california migration is trumped up and grossly misrepresented. But what Do I know I just read the US census.gov numbers which are easily available on the website. I do see a lot of. Texaslates. . Arkansas maybe every few days. Maybe a Florida every few weeks.

In Stillwater, the most likely out of state license plate to be seen is easily Texas. Probably next are Kansas and maybe California.

44 Between OKC and Tulsa needs to be 6 lanes and 35 between OKC and TX state line needs to 6 lanes

Oklahoma has been rebuilding the i35 bridges for years and what’s crazy is they aren’t building them for a future additional lane. You’d think it would be smart to make room for the additional lane now

Oklahoma has been rebuilding the i35 bridges for years and what’s crazy is they aren’t building them for a future additional lane. You’d think it would be smart to make room for the additional lane now
It looks like the most recent I-35 bridges have been built to be striped for three lanes each way in the future. ODOT already plans to widen I-35 to six lanes between the Texas state line to almost Marietta. I figure ODOT has long term plans to widen I-35 to minimum of six lanes from the Texas state line to SH-33 in Guthrie.

https://www.odot.org/cwp-8-year-plan/cwp_ffy2022-ffy2029/8_year_cwp_district7_map.pdf

And as Boulder pointed out, I-44 will be a minimum of six lanes from I-35 to Claremore.

And it's going to be fantastic!

it really is .. the new section that is already completed and opened is the nicest stretch of highway in the state

It looks like the most recent I-35 bridges have been built to be striped for three lanes each way in the future. ODOT already plans to widen I-35 to six lanes between the Texas state line to almost Marietta. I figure ODOT has long term plans to widen I-35 to minimum of six lanes from the Texas state line to SH-33 in Guthrie.

https://www.odot.org/cwp-8-year-plan/cwp_ffy2022-ffy2029/8_year_cwp_district7_map.pdf

And as Boulder pointed out, I-44 will be a minimum of six lanes from I-35 to Claremore.

Regarding the I-44 to Claremore widening, the Tulsa paper has an article about doing this very thing.

"It also includes widening the 12-mile segment of the Will Rogers Turnpike between Claremore and the U.S. 412 interchange near Catoosa. The cost is $315 million.

it really is .. the new section that is already completed and opened is the nicest stretch of highway in the state

I drove it a couple weeks ago and there were already lights out. Not sure why this state has such a problem keeping Highway lights on

I drove it a couple weeks ago and there were already lights out. Not sure why this state has such a problem keeping Highway lights on

thieves

thieves

I haven't noticed this on the same scale in other cities driving at night. Tulsa and OKC both have issues keeping their street and highway lights on.

I haven't noticed this on the same scale in other cities driving at night. Tulsa and OKC both have issues keeping their street and highway lights on.
I’ve been noticing it more and more in Las Vegas and LA now. I think OKC has gotten kinda better about it? The highways in OK seem better lit than they were several years back. But it’s still bad.

Interesting map showing urban-rural population change from 2020-21. The two big Oklahoma metro areas are really evident with big losses everywhere else. I think the growth coming to the Pryor area will start to better connect Tulsa to NWA

https://media-exp1.licdn.com/dms/image/C5622AQFTP_RGQXQU-Q/feedshare-shrink_2048_1536/0/1651172171932?e=2147483647&v=beta&t=USO1nV-XShXo-JRudtPSlE1w3OuQQZyGhDmt3sxpeS0

^ It looks to me the map indicates South East and Southern rural areas are gaining and not losing population.

Interesting, looks like the urban areas of Houston & Dallas as probably reached its tipping point, and people moving to the burbs.

Lots of people are moving to the suburbs. Cars and the suburban lifestyle is the future. Not mass transit and urban city living. This fantasy new urbanist have just isn’t playing out.

Lots of people are moving to the suburbs. Cars and the suburban lifestyle is the future. Not mass transit and urban city living. This fantasy new urbanist have just isn’t playing out.

45+min commutes, lack of any kind of culture other than flat billed baseball caps,
And the same pick up in every driveway, no restaurants that aren’t Applebees or Texas Roadhouse, a strip mall full of failed business that keep rotating of vapeshopes, then CrossFit gym, them Jiu jitsu, then a dispensary.
I’ll take amenity and a short commute over that.

45+min commutes, lack of any kind of culture other than flat billed baseball caps,
And the same pick up in every driveway, no restaurants that aren’t Applebees or Texas Roadhouse, a strip mall full of failed business that keep rotating of vapeshopes, then CrossFit gym, them Jiu jitsu, then a dispensary.
I’ll take amenity and a short commute over that.

Definitely, it is more expensive to live in city centers. There more low income people than high income people.

45+min commutes, lack of any kind of culture other than flat billed baseball caps,
And the same pick up in every driveway, no restaurants that aren’t Applebees or Texas Roadhouse, a strip mall full of failed business that keep rotating of vapeshopes, then CrossFit gym, them Jiu jitsu, then a dispensary.
I’ll take amenity and a short commute over that.
Lol keep telling yourself that

Lol keep telling yourself that

I'm with you PluPan. I'm in the burbs and can get anywhere in 25 minutes or less.

45+min commutes, lack of any kind of culture other than flat billed baseball caps,
And the same pick up in every driveway, no restaurants that aren’t Applebees or Texas Roadhouse, a strip mall full of failed business that keep rotating of vapeshopes, then CrossFit gym, them Jiu jitsu, then a dispensary.
I’ll take amenity and a short commute over that.

other then the commute none of the rest describes edmond or norman ..

Lol keep telling yourself that

I agree with lack of culture big time. What culture is in cookie cutter housing developments? Most housing developments in the suburbs have about 3 styles of houses. You have to drive a few miles just to get to a store. I can walk to get anything in 5 minutes.

To each is own but to say suburbs have culture compared to large urban areas is far reach. Edmond probably comes closer than any other suburb because Moore, Mustang, Yukon are devoid of any culture.

People move to the suburbs because it is cheaper.

I agree with lack of culture big time. What culture is in cookie cutter housing developments? Most housing developments in the suburbs have about 3 styles of houses. You have to drive a few miles just to get to a store. I can walk to get anything in 5 minutes.

To each is own but to say suburbs have culture compared to large urban areas is far reach. Edmond probably comes closer than any other suburb because Moore, Mustang, Yukon are devoid of any culture.

People move to the suburbs because it is cheaper.
No one has said there exist more culture in the suburbs than cities. You’re saying that. No one else is except for Ryan. That’s strawman.

other then the commute none of the rest describes edmond or norman ..
Is Norman a 45 minute commute? Because even with rush hour you can make it from Edmond to OKC or vice versa in 30 minutes and that’s worst scenario and a lot of that depends on where you live in Edmond. Lots of the added traffic time is due to Edmond sh!tty street network. Once you’re on the highway or close to it you’re talking 10-15 minute commute time AT MOST.

Not sure about Norman.

I'm with you PluPan. I'm in the burbs and can get anywhere in 25 minutes or less.
Yep. You also can have a much larger home for less money, better schools, better police, less noise, better car access, more privacy, you can have a large private yard versus having to go to a public park(which is nice sometimes but not if that’s your only option of being outside other than on the street), I mean can on and on. NYC is cool(I might have to move there temporarily), I currently live in Hollywood across the street from a subway station, and I’ve lived in Downtown LA, I can honestly tell you cities suck. I’ve gained a newfound appreciation for suburbs and cars. Mass transit sucks and the cities that they run in suck. I’m currently looking for a house outside of LA preferably Orange County.

I’m not the only one. Virtually every single one of my friends who did the urban city living thing around the country and even Europe has decided to move back to the suburban lifestyle regardless of whether or not they have kids.

45+min commutes, lack of any kind of culture other than flat billed baseball caps,
And the same pick up in every driveway, no restaurants that aren’t Applebees or Texas Roadhouse, a strip mall full of failed business that keep rotating of vapeshopes, then CrossFit gym, them Jiu jitsu, then a dispensary.
I’ll take amenity and a short commute over that.

It is apparent you have spent zero time of any consequence in Norman.

Yep. You also can have a much larger home for less money, better schools, better police, less noise, better car access, more privacy, you can have a large private yard versus having to go to a public park(which is nice sometimes but not if that’s your only option of being outside other than on the street), I mean can on and on. NYC is cool(I might have to move there temporarily), I currently live in Hollywood across the street from a subway station, and I’ve lived in Downtown LA, I can honestly tell you cities suck. I’ve gained a newfound appreciation for suburbs and cars. Mass transit sucks and the cities that they run in suck. I’m currently looking for a house outside of LA preferably Orange County.

I’m not the only one. Virtually every single one of my friends who did the urban city living thing around the country and even Europe has decided to move back to the suburban lifestyle regardless of whether or not they have kids.

I've lived in large city centers most of my adult life. No kids, have zero interest is mowing or having a yard to upkeep, love convenience, only noise might be cars or sirens here and there, urban parks are usually amazing, and I'm pushing 50. OKC is the smallest city I've lived in.

Like I said to each is own, only friends I know that moved to the burbs are the ones that had kids. Me and my wife love living in the urban center.

OKC is perfect IMO, traffic is not bad at all, super easy to get around, and there is a ton of options for just about anything here without having to drive far. I use to live in capitol hill in seattle and would walk or bike most places because traffic is insane in Seattle. Seattle has the 5 and water on both sides and with over 700k people city proper and 4 million metro that one highway gets a lot of traffic but it is a lot better now with the link light rail, wish it was there when I lived there.

Is Norman a 45 minute commute? Because even with rush hour you can make it from Edmond to OKC or vice versa in 30 minutes and that’s worst scenario and a lot of that depends on where you live in Edmond. Lots of the added traffic time is due to Edmond sh!tty street network. Once you’re on the highway or close to it you’re talking 10-15 minute commute time AT MOST.

Not sure about Norman.

30 minutes or less outside of a couple of hours on weekdays or football game days.

It is apparent you have spent zero time of any consequence in Norman.

Is norman a suburb? I thought Norman was its own thing being south of Moore and 20 miles south of OKC

I've lived in large city centers most of my adult life. No kids, have zero interest is mowing or having a yard to upkeep, love convenience, only noise might be cars or sirens here and there, urban parks are usually amazing, and I'm pushing 50. OKC is the smallest city I've lived in.

Like I said to each is own, only friends I know that moved to the burbs are the ones that had kids. Me and my wife love living in the urban center.

OKC is perfect IMO, traffic is not bad at all, super easy to get around, and there is a ton of options for just about anything here without having to drive far. I use to live in capitol hill in seattle and would walk or bike most places because traffic is insane in Seattle. Seattle has the 5 and water on both sides and with over 700k people city proper and 4 million metro that one highway gets a lot of traffic but it is a lot better now with the link light rail, wish it was there when I lived there.
I mean don’t get me wrong, I appreciate cities for what they are. I was just in downtown OKC at the first national and it was awesome. I like visiting and taking advantage of the amenities that are there. I support that and neighborhoods like the Wheeler District for those who like that lifestyle. But it sure isn’t for me.

Is norman a suburb? I thought Norman was its own thing being south of Moore and 20 miles south of OKC

Yes, it is a suburb

It is apparent you have spent zero time of any consequence in Norman.

Correct But Norman is a fairly large city in its own right independent of OKC. Arguably not a suburb. Plus college town. So you’re importing culture. And than god for that. Yukon and Edmond were what I was speaking of. Btw not to go off on a tangent but speaking of culture I took a few courses at UCO that is the least diverse college campus I have ever seen.

Is norman a suburb? I thought Norman was its own thing being south of Moore and 20 miles south of OKC
While many in Norman feel quite separate from OKC and to a degree quite independent of the goings on in OKC, the Census Bureau considers it a suburb of OKC.

Many people move to the suburbs because they just want somewhat quieter living and they want to live in a house. Yeah, there are houses in the core and around downtown OKC, but it's not the same as living outside the core or in the suburbs. My only gripe with the new housing developments is the size of the back yards and lot sizes. 1/3 acre lots would be ideal because it gives you quite a bit of room to do what you want with your house and to build a dream home.

Interesting, looks like the urban areas of Houston & Dallas as probably reached its tipping point, and people moving to the burbs.

Helps explain why nearly all the Oklahoma Red River Counties are growing. I wonder if they would grow faster if Oklahoma abolished the state income tax.

Lots of people are moving to the suburbs. Cars and the suburban lifestyle is the future. Not mass transit and urban city living. This fantasy new urbanist have just isn’t playing out.

Oh dear God. Don't be such an absolutist. Both of those outcomes are likely. OKC is increasing its inner-city population as its exurban and suburban areas also are growing.

The study cited above is very interesting but like anything involving statistics, can be misrepresented. If anything, housing affordability is a major reason why some of these incredibly expensive urban areas are seeing people move further out. For over a decade, massive new residential towers in places like NYC are increasingly owned by international investors. So, properties are sold but not regularly occupied. Such properties have the unintended consequence of driving up the price of residential real estate.

As someone who lives in Southern California, you should know better than anyone else how radically the cost of housing has escalated in LA over the last few years.

Also, people should not overreact to this survey. It's not like NYC and LA are depopulating in the urban areas; they just aren't growing as fast.

Housing affordability is an existential threat to the sustainability and vibrancy of cities. OKC is blessed with so many donut holes to fill in the central city that the increased costs aren't quite as severe as they are elsewhere, but the costs are going up nonetheless.

Whether or not you agree with me, you will note that OKC inner-city housing has never been in greater demand than it is right now.

Interesting map showing urban-rural population change from 2020-21. The two big Oklahoma metro areas are really evident with big losses everywhere else. I think the growth coming to the Pryor area will start to better connect Tulsa to NWA

https://media-exp1.licdn.com/dms/image/C5622AQFTP_RGQXQU-Q/feedshare-shrink_2048_1536/0/1651172171932?e=2147483647&v=beta&t=USO1nV-XShXo-JRudtPSlE1w3OuQQZyGhDmt3sxpeS0

according to this OK county is gaining and so are the counties that surround it. Cars and suburban living is fine for some but mass public transit is a must in any large city. Not everyone can afford a car, gas, and insurance. OKC use to have an amazing mass public transit system hence all of the split roads OKC has which I love.17428

I've lived in large city centers most of my adult life. No kids, have zero interest is mowing or having a yard to upkeep, love convenience, only noise might be cars or sirens here and there, urban parks are usually amazing, and I'm pushing 50. OKC is the smallest city I've lived in.

Like I said to each is own, only friends I know that moved to the burbs are the ones that had kids. Me and my wife love living in the urban center.

OKC is perfect IMO, traffic is not bad at all, super easy to get around, and there is a ton of options for just about anything here without having to drive far. I use to live in capitol hill in seattle and would walk or bike most places because traffic is insane in Seattle. Seattle has the 5 and water on both sides and with over 700k people city proper and 4 million metro that one highway gets a lot of traffic but it is a lot better now with the link light rail, wish it was there when I lived there.

As a Tacoma resident, keep in prospective that the 4m CSA figure includes the Tacoma metro area (which is NOT a suburb of Seattle); Seattle "metro" is really King and Snohomish Co. Over the years, I've lived all over Seattle, the Eastside, Snoho, and now Pierce - although you're right about i-5, I would say it is THE reason why we have traffic since most jobs are consolidated into downtown seattle, UW, and Bellevue/Redmond (where I office) yet only 1 interstate. And light rail wont fix it since it will take longer to ride than drive, even in traffic - but still nice to be getting.

But I digress but would agree with you about OKC. It's my hometown and if I did return there I would also be living downtown, even though I don't now (which is a long story). Just too many advantages of living in the OKC city center if you come from a larger metro and like the CITY lifestyle. ..

Correct But Norman is a fairly large city in its own right independent of OKC. Arguably not a suburb. Plus college town. So you’re importing culture. And than god for that. Yukon and Edmond were what I was speaking of. Btw not to go off on a tangent but speaking of culture I took a few courses at UCO that is the least diverse college campus I have ever seen.

Shartel-Ave: Speaking in terms you'll understand - Norman is a suburb of OKC in the same way as Bellevue and Everett (also large cities the size of Norman and similar distance) are of Seattle. Although today, Bellevue and Everett could stand on their own without Seattle, both owe their existance and prosperity to Seattle. Likewise, Norman in it's current and future growth wouldn't exist without OKC, other than OU (see Stillwater-OSU). For clarity, OKC has suburbs within about a 25 mile radius from downtown, similar to Seattle, although in OKC metro's case there are some rural sections inbetween vs. it being fairly contiguous up here.

As to transit, OKC is nowhere near what you're used to but they're getting there. Commuter rail, principally connecting the N and S suburbs (Edmond to downtown to Norman) is in the works, as is BRT 'lite' from downtown to inner NW - not sure why they didn't go all the way to Piedmont (another OKC suburb) but that's that. Other BRT lite routes are proposed. Weidly, there's no Airport transit anymore, and no real talk of such - not even Airport Express bus. ... You're likely familiar with the OKC Streetcar, somewhat similar to Seattle's and Tacoma's, that likely will be expanded after the next 5 years into the neighborhoods and especially into the OHC in the east. The local bus network which is getting prioritized more and more, it's MUCH better than it has been in like 30 years. The ONLY thing OKC isn't really pursuing is a Commuter Bus network (like SoundTransit). It appears to be Commuter Rail (along the N-S, and possibly E corridors) or nothing for the OKC metro suburbs, which is weird IMO, because usually rail comes after proven bus ridership (like it did here).

As a Tacoma resident, keep in prospective that the 4m CSA includes the Tacoma metro area; Seattle is King and Snohomish. I've lived all over Seattle, the Eastside, Snoho, and now Pierce - although you're right about i-5 I would say it is THE reason why we have traffic since most jobs are consolidated into downtown seattle, UW, and Bellevue/Redmond (where I office) yet only 1 interstate. And light rail wont fix it since it will take longer to ride than drive, even in traffic - but still nice to be getting.

But I digress but would agree with you about OKC. It's my hometown and if I did return there I would also be living downtown, even though I don't now (which is a long story). Just too many advantages of living in the OKC city center if you come from a larger metro and like the CITY lifestyle. ..

OKC is nothing like Seattle but you know that. IMO living in OKC you have all or most of the amenities as you would in Seattle with less congestion and better weather unless you just like gray drizzly days for months on end but Seattle has some of the most beautiful scenery in the world for a city.

I was talking about the metro not the CSA, the CSA is just under 5 million

17429

Shartel-Ave: Speaking in terms you'll understand - Norman is a suburb of OKC in the same way as Bellevue and Everett (also large cities the size of Norman and similar distance) are of Seattle. Norman wouldn't exist without OKC in the same as the WA cities wouldn't exist without Seattle (or each other). OKC has suburbs within about a 25 mile radius from downtown, similar to Seattle.

Norman has the University of Oklahoma so I think it would still be the size it is today without OKC and I'm sure OKC helps having the OU medical center and the only hospital with a level 1 adult and level 1 pediatric trauma center in the state.

Yuck, I wouldn't insult Norman by comparing it to Everett and Bellevue is a proper large city with a nice skyline and the last time I saw Bellevue or Seattle was in 2012 while on vacation in the PNW

It makes sense though because driving north in Seattle you have Lynnwood before Everett like Moore before Norman and a similar distance from Lynnwood to Everette as Moore to Norman.

Who knows maybe Everett is really nice now last I was in Everett was 2007 and it was not a known as a nice place unlike Mukilteo or Edmonds which are beautiful little towns.

Not to further derail this thread - Shartel, we can talk offline on PM. Nice to have a fellow Seattle/Tacoma person on OKC talk.

Yep. You also can have a much larger home for less money, better schools, better police, less noise, better car access, more privacy, you can have a large private yard versus having to go to a public park(which is nice sometimes but not if that’s your only option of being outside other than on the street), I mean can on and on. NYC is cool(I might have to move there temporarily), I currently live in Hollywood across the street from a subway station, and I’ve lived in Downtown LA, I can honestly tell you cities suck. I’ve gained a newfound appreciation for suburbs and cars. Mass transit sucks and the cities that they run in suck. I’m currently looking for a house outside of LA preferably Orange County.

I’m not the only one. Virtually every single one of my friends who did the urban city living thing around the country and even Europe has decided to move back to the suburban lifestyle regardless of whether or not they have kids.

Yeah, I know a lot of people don't like the idea of lawn maintenance but imo competing with offsetting neighbors for lawn of the month is one of the best parts of suburbia. Especially if you've invested in a big greensmower.

No one has said there exist more culture in the suburbs than cities. You’re saying that. No one else is except for Ryan. That’s strawman.

I did not say there was more culture in the suburbs.

With the open 235 maybe 20 min. Edmond just isn’t something to strive to for me. But Come on. Nothing I said is untrue.

I really enjoyed Seattle. My wife and I stayed in this place westcrest and Henderson avenue. (Airbnb). Wife thought the neighborhood was sketchy but it’s nothing like east tulsa where I grew up. She’s from elk city though so no good frame of reference. Honestly if I had a money I’d do a little condo off California in west Seattle. It had charm. Traffic wasn’t as bad as Dallas made discovery park and other outdoor activities within 30 min. Rainier was fake looking. Just unreal. Parking downtown was atrocious the night we went. We’re going to go again.

Is norman a suburb? I thought Norman was its own thing being south of Moore and 20 miles south of OKC

Norman is it’s own thing.

Overall I think it’s a sign of a healthy and growing metro that there are plenty of options to live in different areas depending on one’s preference or life stage. Young, poor and want a fun place to start out? The 16th street area is a great starter place. Want something a bit more upscale as young marrieds with no kids? Tons of options in the downtown/uptown area. Have kids and want to go to the best schools in the state? Edmond, Deer Creek and Norman are all places you can easily commute from. Want some more land and spread out after making some money? Deer Creek and North Edmond (and increasingly Mustang/Yukon) all work. If you want a more traditional suburban experience, Nichols Hills is a great option. All of these aren’t far from a metro area that provides lots of fun opportunities and experiences thanks to a road network that hasn’t hit saturation (yet).

And then yeah there’s tons of cookie cutter developments in between, but the cost of living in them is lower compared to other metros.

Helps explain why nearly all the Oklahoma Red River Counties are growing. I wonder if they would grow faster if Oklahoma abolished the state income tax.

I'd say the growth would have a lot to do with the casinos of the Chicks and Chocs.

Anyone seen the recent billboard(s?) in OKC that advertise teacher salaries in Ft Worth?

Anyone seen the recent billboard(s?) in OKC that advertise teacher salaries in Ft Worth?

Yes, there are a few on I 35 and I 235, targeting teachers in Norman, OKC, and Edmond. It’s a strategy Ft. Worth school district has employed for a very long time. I had heard—but have no data to back it up—that it was quite effective a decade ago because there was a substantial gap in pay between OK schools and Ft. Worth (It was something like $38k vs $65k). I am skeptical it will be as effective with the recent teacher pay increases that narrowed the pay gap and the increased in cost of living in Ft. Worth. But we’ll see. Ft Worth definitely thinks it could yield results.

Yes, there are a few on I 35 and I 235, targeting teachers in Norman, OKC, and Edmond. It’s a strategy Ft. Worth school district has employed for a very long time. I had heard—but have no data to back it up—that it was quite effective a decade ago because there was a substantial gap in pay between OK schools and Ft. Worth (It was something like $38k vs $65k). I am skeptical it will be as effective with the recent teacher pay increases that narrowed the pay gap and the increased in cost of living in Ft. Worth. But we’ll see. Ft Worth definitely thinks it could yield results.

The teacher pay raises in Oklahoma were minimal, and mostly targeted entry-level teachers. Oklahoma teacher pay still completely sucks. For someone making $42k a year, a 30-50% pay increase is significant.

Oklahoma definitely has a deficit of medical professionals. I was brought here because of the lower cost of living and higher wages compared to Louisiana. I couldn't find a job in my field there for a year and immediately received a job offer for 10k over what I expected in OKC. The next 2 people hired were from out of state as well. Absolutely no regrets making the move here.

The teacher pay raises in Oklahoma were minimal, and mostly targeted entry-level teachers. Oklahoma teacher pay still completely sucks. For someone making $42k a year, a 30-50% pay increase is significant.

I’d disagree they were minimal. Combining the 2018 and 2019 raises, they were actually quite significant, averaging ~$7,400, which was close to a 20% pay increase for entry level, and moved us substantially up the pay rankings for the first time in a very long time. The question is if it is enough for us to stop the bleeding. Early indications that I’ve heard from OSDE say it helped slow it down, but wasn’t enough to recruit new teachers to the profession/state, which is what we need.

Tcopel90 I agree with you. I had to find a neurologist a few years ago. It was tough and was told that there just are not enough in Oklahoma. I had to wait 9 months to get in. (had to be one with the needed sub specialty and was put with the wrong one but he took me on) Other specialists that I know that are real short is sleep medicine, not the guys that just treat sleep apnea. As far as I know only one left in the metro area and he is booked full. I have doctors that came from out of state for the simple reason that their specialty is in short supply so they can make the money here for that reason. Luckily they are good doctors.

Another reason why I think we are no producing lots of teachers, back in the day women basically where told if they wanted a college education and job to get into, it was either nursing or being a school teacher. Now those school teachers are at an age that they are retiring out or have already retired out. Women have much more open career choices. I know back in the 70's I got alot of push back on my choice.

Not to derail the current conversation, but I think my question may be relevant for this thread. So my family currently lives in Yukon, however I just started a job over in Del City. Anybody live near in or around Del City that might be nice little pockets for us to consider should we relocate in the next few years once the market calms down a bit? I don't think I want to move south to Moore or beyond. But we also don't have the money for Wheeler District just yet, haha.

I’m not sure if you’re open to renting or sharing a wall with neighbors but there’s this newer complex near I-240 and Sooner called Liberty Creek Village that seems to be fairly nice. It’s an Oklahoma City address and it’s near the southwest side of Tinker. I spent all of my childhood and most of my teenage years near 44th and Bryant and I’ve always associated the area near 240 as being the nicest part of that side of town. It has been nearly a decade since I lived over there so my view might be outdated by now but I’m still in the area pretty often (multiple times a week) to visit family and a lot of it still feels the same. What it feels like versus what it actually is might be very different, though, especially since I’m a local to the area and probably have more of a tolerance for what life is like there.

Not to derail the current conversation, but I think my question may be relevant for this thread. So my family currently lives in Yukon, however I just started a job over in Del City. Anybody live near in or around Del City that might be nice little pockets for us to consider should we relocate in the next few years once the market calms down a bit? I don't think I want to move south to Moore or beyond. But we also don't have the money for Wheeler District just yet, haha.

Generally, once you get past I-35, the farther east you go, the better the schools are (Del City is not as good of a high school as Carl Albert, for example). Moore is also a good school district. Just something to think about.

I’d disagree they were minimal. Combining the 2018 and 2019 raises, they were actually quite significant, averaging ~$7,400, which was close to a 20% pay increase for entry level, and moved us substantially up the pay rankings for the first time in a very long time. The question is if it is enough for us to stop the bleeding. Early indications that I’ve heard from OSDE say it helped slow it down, but wasn’t enough to recruit new teachers to the profession/state, which is what we need.

I dunno man. Are you a teacher? My sister is a teacher, a very good one, and she did not get a $7,400 raise. Who got these in what districts? She is in OKC. She is also a tenured educator. Most of these raises were for first-time teachers, not teachers with experience.

The most deceptive thing ever is to talk about "average" raises. Averages are easily skewed. Importantly, a $10,000 to $12,000 raise for a teacher to move to Fort Worth is potentially life changing. Also, Oklahoma teacher pay freaking sucks. You can make more money working at Braum's.

Yes, there are a few on I 35 and I 235, targeting teachers in Norman, OKC, and Edmond. It’s a strategy Ft. Worth school district has employed for a very long time. I had heard—but have no data to back it up—that it was quite effective a decade ago because there was a substantial gap in pay between OK schools and Ft. Worth (It was something like $38k vs $65k). I am skeptical it will be as effective with the recent teacher pay increases that narrowed the pay gap and the increased in cost of living in Ft. Worth. But we’ll see. Ft Worth definitely thinks it could yield results.

My nephew has taught in the Ft Worth district for years, and still does. Says it's a war zone.

My nephew has taught in the Ft Worth district for years, and still does. Says it's a war zone.

And okc doesn’t have rough neighborhoods? There were 90 homicides last year. Most gang related. Fort Worth only had 118. Considering the difference in populations into you’re way more likely to be a victim of violent crime here