I was just extrapolating from the population chart that was posted a few days ago. And I'm using city population from the chart, not metro or market.

From KaynMo's chart above, he's right as I missed Washington DC and didn't include Toronto in my eye count. ...

I would think OKC's market would be ahead of New Orleans and Memphis as well since our metro area is ahead of theirs, but I know how they like to give other cities huge swaths of area to prop up their media markets while confining OKC to just central and very low populated northwestern OK.

OKC's media market isn't tiny by any stretch though. Probably moves us up the list a little. All of OK + parts of Kansas +parts of Ark, pushes us over 4,000,000 eyeballs

OKC's market is only western/central OK. Tulsa has the eastern part of the state.

OKC's market is only western/central OK. Tulsa has the eastern part of the state.

For clarity when I said OKC i meant the thunder as that's what they're discussing

OKC's market is only western/central OK. Tulsa has the eastern part of the state.

It's Fox Southwest coverage. It's much bigger than Oklahoma. I've talked to people from Springfield MO who say they watch the Thunder on a regular basis too.

My brother in Arizona told me five years ago that their cable provider carried the Thunder. He said they were on more than the Suns were.

NBA's Six smallest markets

(Markets under 2 million MSA Populations.)

Milwaukee, WI - MSA Population 1,577,550 TV Homes (895,700) Urban Population - 587,721
Oklahoma City, OK - MSA Population 1,439,640 - TV Homes (722,140) Urban Population - 669,347
Memphis, TN - MSA Population 1,353,140 TV Homes (633,930) Urban Population - 651,011
New Orleans, LA - MSA Population 1,271,320 - TV Homes (641,620) Urban Population - 641,620
Salt Lake City, UT - MSA Population 1,260,730 TV Homes (916,960) Urban Population - 200,831

.

Why does Salt Lake City have so many more TV Homes? Do they count all of Utah as SLC TV Homes? It seems that if you combined Tulsa's TV homes, OKC Thunder would have a much higher TV homes ranking

Utah probably stretches into Montana and Idaho.

Why does Salt Lake City have so many more TV Homes? Do they count all of Utah as SLC TV Homes? It seems that if you combined Tulsa's TV homes, OKC Thunder would have a much higher TV homes ranking

My understanding is Salt Lake City counts all of Utah. Which they should; therefore, Tulsa & Oklahoma City have a combined TV homes of 1,253,371 counting the 531,230 TV homes in the Tulsa market. Mick Cornett sold the NBA on a combined Oklahoma TV homes market as Fox Oklahoma is aired in Tulsa.

Those figures are from 2017:

2017 Nielsen DMA Rankings – Full List: https://www.lyonspr.com/latest-nielsen-dma-rankings/

Here is the 2021 Nielsen DMA Rankings - Full List: https://mediatracks.com/resources/nielsen-dma-rankings-2021/

Oklahoma City (755,340) & Tulsa (552,980) now have a combined Oklahoma total: 1,308,320. Also Wichita Falls-Lawton (153,870) and Sherman-Ada (135,390) are not listed in Oklahoma City market; don't know if they carry Fox Oklahoma. With Fort Sill-Lawton, the area probably carries Thunder games because of the high military population.

Utah 1,100,260, I don't see a separate listing for West Valley City, Provo or West Jordan (All Utah cities with 100,000+) so they are probably included in the SLC's Utah, Market. Our poster Hot Rod can probably expand on these market figures.

https://www.nationsonline.org/maps/USA/Utah_map.jpg

Hey Larry, Im in Seattle not SLC. But I too have often wondered why SLC has always had a higher 'market' than OKC. You'd think Milwaukee's would be larger since WI is significantly larger than Utah (and Oklahoma is significantly larger than Utah as well and about equal to Louisiana). ...

If OKC's is relatively small then a smaller city/metro should be even smaller. But from the chart, interesting that OKC is solidly the 4th smallest metro, largest of the smallest cities, 3rd of the smallest markets.

The true media market is what I think of where the local media broadcasts, if OKC logically had Oklahoma catchment other than Tulsa then we'd have a market well over 1m (which is probably the figure the NBA should be using), with Tulsa well north of 1.6m, with KS, MO, W AR, W TX catchment probably north of 4m total.


Just for curiosity sakes, we/Seattle are considered part of Portland's NBA catchment - so I am not able to see most of Portland games including last nights against OKC even though I have NBA OKC league pass on sling, even nationally televised. (might be an issue I will take up with the NBA, particularly since there is no in-game attendance anyway due to covid- why are they blacking out ANY broadcasts esp my supposed all-OKC package. ....)

Hey Larry, Im in Seattle not SLC. But I too have often wondered why SLC has always had a higher 'market' than OKC. You'd think Milwaukee's would be larger since WI is significantly larger than Utah (and Oklahoma is significantly larger than Utah as well and about equal to Louisiana). ...

If OKC's is relatively small then a smaller city/metro should be even smaller. But from the chart, interesting that OKC is solidly the 4th smallest metro, largest of the smallest cities, 3rd of the smallest markets.

The true media market is what I think of where the local media broadcasts, if OKC logically had Oklahoma catchment other than Tulsa then we'd have a market well over 1m (which is probably the figure the NBA should be using), with Tulsa well north of 1.6m, with KS, MO, W AR, W TX catchment probably north of 4m total.


Just for curiosity sakes, we/Seattle are considered part of Portland's NBA catchment - so I am not able to see most of Portland games including last nights against OKC even though I have NBA OKC league pass on sling, even nationally televised. (might be an issue I will take up with the NBA, particularly since there is no in-game attendance anyway due to covid- why are they blacking out ANY broadcasts esp my supposed all-OKC package. ....)

Salt Lake's CSA, which adds the Provo and Ogden MSAs, is larger than the Pittsburgh, Kansas City, Las Vegas, Indianapolis, Cincinnati and Nashville's CSAs:

Combined Statistical Areas (2019):
Salt Lake City-Provo-Orem, UT Combined Statistical Area - 2,641,048
Milwaukee-Racine-Waukesha, WI Combined Statistical Area - 2,047,966
New Orleans-Metairie-Hammond, LA-MS Combined Statistical Area - 1,507,017
Oklahoma City-Shawnee, OK Combined Statistical Area - 1,481,542
Memphis-Forrest City, TN-MS-AR Combined Statistical Area - 1,371,039

Tulsa-Muskogee-Bartlesville, OK Combined Statistical Area - 1,118,150

So if you combined Tulsa and OKC CSAs to match SLC CSA basically covering the entire state of Utah, they would be about equal at around 2.5-2.6 mil.

Hot Rod Thanks, you answered our question.

Oklahoma City and Tulsa market coverage of the Thunder = the TV homes which is larger than Utah which appeared to be in the North half center of the state, based on those figures it would have to include the Whole State because there are no other cities in Utah with a TV homes figures. The biggest population centers in Utah of !00,000+ all appear to be in the SLC Metro area.

Plus, with areas like Springfield, MO the coverage is more about the Thunder Catchment Area (no longer have that catchment map) which would probably include Sherman-Ada and Wichita Falls-Lawton. Looks like Thunder coverage extends into 3 neighboring states (Missouri, Kansas & Texas.

I was just extrapolating from the population chart that was posted a few days ago. And I'm using city population from the chart, not metro or market.

From KaynMo's chart above, he's right as I missed Washington DC and didn't include Toronto in my eye count. ...

I would think OKC's market would be ahead of New Orleans and Memphis as well since our metro area is ahead of theirs, but I know how they like to give other cities huge swaths of area to prop up their media markets while confining OKC to just central and very low populated northwestern OK.

Thanks HR. My post was based on second hand knowledge from B/R.

So if you combined Tulsa and OKC CSAs to match SLC CSA basically covering the entire state of Utah, they would be about equal at around 2.5-2.6 mil.

exactly, I think some places get too carried away with this CSA thing - which only makes sense in true sprawl areas like NY, Chi, LA, bay area, DC-Baltimore, etc that truly have municipalities that interact. Creating SLC CSA is ridiculous in that it's basically the entire state in population and there's not much daily interaction among the MSAs to make it a connected region (unlike Seattle-Tacoma-Olympia CSA for example).

Also I argue with OKC's CSA designation still not including Stillwater despite very close business and economic connections with that exurb yet they split Shawnee from the MSA designation years ago even though it is deeply connected. While not much of a difference in population, OKC's MSA should include Shawnee and be the 1.48m something and an extended CSA should include Stillwater bumping us up to 1.6m.

Even Tulsa CSA includes Bartlesville and Muskogee (towns more than 50 miles away - farther than OKC-Stillwater) that arguably are just as connected to Tulsa as Stillwater is to OKC (even same area code, etc).

So if SLC CSA makes sense then OKC CSA should include Stillwater. Better yet - we also could be ridiculous like Utah and do the Oklahoma CSA as was mentioned for 2.7m bragging rights and still would not be our entire state population (still more than 1.3m remaining) unlike Utah with the SLC CSA designation.

Good post, Hot Rod

There are certain criteria that have to be met for there to be a CSA or to be included in a CSA, and that is - adjacent Metropolitan and Micropolitan areas (each of which have their own definitions) have to have an employment interchange measure (EIM) of at least 15. EIM is defined as the sum of the percentage of employed residents of the smaller area who work in the larger area and the percentage of employment in the smaller area that is accounted for by workers who reside in the larger area. Salt Lake City-Provo-Orem CSA meets this criteria just like Seattle-Tacoma-Olympia CSA does.

Bartlesville micro and Muskogee micro meet this criteria for Tulsa metro, and Shawnee micro for OKC metro, whereas Stillwater micro does not for either OKC or Tulsa metros. The OKC metro and the Tulsa metro are already adjacent, and if the two metros had an EIM of at least 15, then that would create an OKC-Tulsa CSA.

Thanks KayneMO.

Salt Lake City has 3 population areas (within 25 miles) that exceed 100,000 people close to urban SLC. Norman is the only city exceeding 100,000 people with 126,952 in OKC's MSA. Now Edmond is getting close with 96,376. Moore has 63,261 with good growth. Norman-Moore (Shared Vo-Tech) combined represents 190,213.

Now if you combine Midwest City-Del City (57,849 +21,666 = 79,515), since they have shared Mid-Del Schools/Voc Tech Districts yet separate Police Departments & City Councils is what differentiates the two cities.

To put that in perspective: Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex has 8 cities in the 100,00-199,999 category and 5 cities in the 200,000-499,999 with Arlington being the largest at 398,854 which approaches our state's 2nd largest urban city of Tulsa with 402,742.

There are certain criteria that have to be met for there to be a CSA or to be included in a CSA, and that is - adjacent Metropolitan and Micropolitan areas (each of which have their own definitions) have to have an employment interchange measure (EIM) of at least 15. EIM is defined as the sum of the percentage of employed residents of the smaller area who work in the larger area and the percentage of employment in the smaller area that is accounted for by workers who reside in the larger area. Salt Lake City-Provo-Orem CSA meets this criteria just like Seattle-Tacoma-Olympia CSA does.

Bartlesville micro and Muskogee micro meet this criteria for Tulsa metro, and Shawnee micro for OKC metro, whereas Stillwater micro does not for either OKC or Tulsa metros. The OKC metro and the Tulsa metro are already adjacent, and if the two metros had an EIM of at least 15, then that would create an OKC-Tulsa CSA.

I think in the case of Stillwater any commuting is split pretty evenly between OKC and Tulsa which is why you don’t see it included in the CSA for either metro. I think the ties between Stillwater and Tulsa are stronger, however.

I think in the case of Stillwater any commuting is split pretty evenly between OKC and Tulsa which is why you don’t see it included in the CSA for either metro. I think the ties between Stillwater and Tulsa are stronger, however.

I don't think many people who work at OSU would want to deal with the hour long commute from living in Tulsa. Except for Sand Springs, the more popular suburbs would take even longer. Shorter to do and likely more popular is the 40 mile commute from living in Edmond.

Stillwater has stronger ties to OKC. This is because all the TV and almost all the radio station signals are stronger than the ones from Tulsa. Unlike the case with OKC, getting TV signals from Tulsa from just an indoor antenna can't be done. However, getting stable TV reception from OKC is no sure bet if your street is in bottom of a valley, i.e, S. Washington St. Cable in Stillwater only offers one Tulsa TV channel. However, some people may question of what relevance is quality of TV reception to this issue when so many people these days get their TV from the Internet.

According to citi-data.com, workers who live and work in Stillwater are at 85.6%, which helps explains why Stillwater is not in a CSA of a metro. For Bartlesville and Muskogee, it's 77.3% and 71.2%.

Stillwater will be Oklahoma's new metro, if covid pandemic didn't cut the census under 50,000.

Even Tulsa CSA includes Bartlesville and Muskogee (towns more than 50 miles away - farther than OKC-Stillwater) that arguably are just as connected to Tulsa as Stillwater is to OKC (even same area code, etc).



Muskogee and Bartlesville are a bit under 50 miles from Tulsa. Stillwater is around 65 miles from OKC.

I don't think many people who work at OSU would want to deal with the hour long commute from living in Tulsa. Except for Sand Springs, the more popular suburbs would take even longer. Shorter to do and likely more popular is the 40 mile commute from living in Edmond.

Stillwater has stronger ties to OKC. This is because all the TV and almost all the radio station signals are stronger than the ones from Tulsa. Unlike the case with OKC, getting TV signals from Tulsa from just an indoor antenna can't be done. However, getting stable TV reception from OKC is no sure bet if your street is in bottom of a valley, i.e, S. Washington St. Cable in Stillwater only offers one Tulsa TV channel. However, some people may question of what relevance is quality of TV reception to this issue when so many people these days get their TV from the Internet.

According to citi-data.com, workers who live and work in Stillwater are at 85.6%, which helps explains why Stillwater is not in a CSA of a metro. For Bartlesville and Muskogee, it's 77.3% and 71.2%.

Stillwater will be Oklahoma's new metro, if covid pandemic didn't cut the census under 50,000.

I was thinking more of the OSU ties since OSU has its urban campus in downtown Tulsa along with its health sciences center and OSU Medical Center. There is also a bus that connects the two campuses that has nine daily trips between the two cities during the week. Downtown Tulsa to downtown Stillwater is 63 miles.

I was thinking more of the OSU ties since OSU has its urban campus in downtown Tulsa along with its health sciences center and OSU Medical Center. There is also a bus that connects the two campuses that has nine daily trips between the two cities during the week. Downtown Tulsa to downtown Stillwater is 63 miles.

No doubt Tulsa, itself, feels a lot closer connection to OSU/Stillwater than it does to OU/Norman. Reflects that OSU is closer to Tulsa than OU. Otherwise, Stillwater townies feel closer to Oklahoma City. Penn Square and Quail Springs are closer than Tulsa's Woodland Hills. Compared to Penn Square Mall in OKC, the Promenade Mall in Tulsa is about gone.

Pretty sure exurban sprawl will close the gap between OKC mad Stillwater before tulsa. I was pretty shocked at the amount of traffic on SH-33 and 177 during rush hour one day I went. They could almost convert that into a freeway which would be nice at some point.

Pretty sure exurban sprawl will close the gap between OKC mad Stillwater before tulsa. I was pretty shocked at the amount of traffic on SH-33 and 177 during rush hour one day I went. They could almost convert that into a freeway which would be nice at some point.

Guthrie/Cedar Valley and Edmond aren't even connected by sprawl yet, though that will likely happen eventually but still about 15-20 years away. Sprawl from Guthrie to Stillwater? Doubtful. I'm sure there are people who live in Stillwater "suburbs" like Langston and Perkins that commute into OKC just like there are likely people in Cushing and Drumright that commute into Tulsa along SH-33.

Pretty sure exurban sprawl will close the gap between OKC mad Stillwater before tulsa. I was pretty shocked at the amount of traffic on SH-33 and 177 during rush hour one day I went. They could almost convert that into a freeway which would be nice at some point.
The expansion project to four lanes on Highway 33 needs to be finished between Langston to just west of Perkins, about a 9 mile project. I hope it's already planned and just needs funded.

Guthrie/Cedar Valley and Edmond aren't even connected by sprawl yet, though that will likely happen eventually but still about 15-20 years away. Sprawl from Guthrie to Stillwater? Doubtful. I'm sure there are people who live in Stillwater "suburbs" like Langston and Perkins that commute into OKC just like there are likely people in Cushing and Drumright that commute into Tulsa along SH-33.
It will be much sooner than 10-15 years before Guthrie is connected to its sprawl. It’s happening as we speak and is halfway there.

Yeah, there's a lot of subdivisions north of Waterloo all the way up to Forrest Hills road at this point.

Give the east side of Edmond and the west side of Edmond ie Deer Creek area another 5 yrs at the rate its buildign up. People and builders are going north of Waterloo for cheaper land to build homes, some on acreages and some on smaller lots. (less then an ac) I would think in about 10 yrs there will be almost unbroken development to Guthrie. Guthrie has already annexed alot of land area but only a few ft wide swathes so that they will be in position to grow as the area builds up.

Otherwise, Stillwater townies feel closer to Oklahoma City.

Anecdotal, but I grew up in Stillwater and felt closer to "the city" (OKC) than Tulsa. For big shopping trips we'd go to Edmond, which isn't too bad of a trip.

There are certain criteria that have to be met for there to be a CSA or to be included in a CSA, and that is - adjacent Metropolitan and Micropolitan areas (each of which have their own definitions) have to have an employment interchange measure (EIM) of at least 15. EIM is defined as the sum of the percentage of employed residents of the smaller area who work in the larger area and the percentage of employment in the smaller area that is accounted for by workers who reside in the larger area. Salt Lake City-Provo-Orem CSA meets this criteria just like Seattle-Tacoma-Olympia CSA does.

Bartlesville micro and Muskogee micro meet this criteria for Tulsa metro, and Shawnee micro for OKC metro, whereas Stillwater micro does not for either OKC or Tulsa metros. The OKC metro and the Tulsa metro are already adjacent, and if the two metros had an EIM of at least 15, then that would create an OKC-Tulsa CSA.

I've been to both SLC and Sea-Tac-Olympia (live here), and SLC functions more like OKC-Stillwater CSA. Provo, Orem, and Ogden have very little or just about the same commute dependence on SLC as Stillwater does. ..

As I wrote, the US has very inconsistent CSA definitions. Chicago CSA - makes sense and prob should include Milwaukee IMO. SLC CSA - is a HUGE stretch just the same as OKC-SW CSA would be.

Guthrie/Cedar Valley and Edmond aren't even connected by sprawl yet, though that will likely happen eventually but still about 15-20 years away. Sprawl from Guthrie to Stillwater? Doubtful. I'm sure there are people who live in Stillwater "suburbs" like Langston and Perkins that commute into OKC just like there are likely people in Cushing and Drumright that commute into Tulsa along SH-33.

Actually, Langston is an OKC suburb. Hence my point that STW could be in OKC's CSA.

Anecdotal, but I grew up in Stillwater and felt closer to "the city" (OKC) than Tulsa. For big shopping trips we'd go to Edmond, which isn't too bad of a trip.

This is my point. A CSA exurb doesn't need to have FULL connection to the downtown central city of OKC; just need to have connection TO THE metro itself. Stillwater is surely better connected to OKC and the ONLY reason why it "isn't" is because OU is so close to downtown and OU generally is considered the big league school nationally (not necessarily starting a fight here, but people nationwide know OU).

Again, it is the same IMO to Provo to SLC or Ogden to SLC, NOT Olympia to Tacoma (which Olympia very well can be a suburb of Tacoma) to Seattle (while Tacoma is not a suburb, it is the 2nd city of the metro/area). .... ...

This is my point. A CSA exurb doesn't need to have FULL connection to the downtown central city of OKC; just need to have connection TO THE metro itself. Stillwater is surely better connected to OKC and the ONLY reason why it "isn't" is because OU is so close to downtown and OU generally is considered the big league school nationally (not necessarily starting a fight here, but people nationwide know OU).

Again, it is the same IMO to Provo to SLC or Ogden to SLC, NOT Olympia to Tacoma (which Olympia very well can be a suburb of Tacoma) to Seattle (while Tacoma is not a suburb, it is the 2nd city of the metro/area). .... ...

But Provo and Ogden are both closer to Salt Lake CIty than is Stillwater from OKC. As a reflection of that fact, workers who both live and work in Provo is 53.9%. Workers who live and work in Ogden is 48.3%. In Stillwater it's 85.6%.

Hopefully, the debate can be settled by the census being able to declare Stillwater as Oklahoma's new metro.

I've been to both SLC and Sea-Tac-Olympia (live here), and SLC functions more like OKC-Stillwater CSA. Provo, Orem, and Ogden have very little or just about the same commute dependence on SLC as Stillwater does. ..

As I wrote, the US has very inconsistent CSA definitions. Chicago CSA - makes sense and prob should include Milwaukee IMO. SLC CSA - is a HUGE stretch just the same as OKC-SW CSA would be.
SLC is a bit of an oddball with some exceptions like Park City almost all of the city is centered around I-15 in a long line.

It’s difficult to compare OKC to SLC. Mountain communities are much more dependent and economically connected to their nearest large cities than elsewhere. For example Denver has a profound influence on communities as far away as Rock Springs and Laramie WY than communities a similar distance from OKC. Geography absolutely plays a role.

very good points catch and plupanda. I definitely agree about Denver but I can use it to point out that the Denver CSA does NOT include Ft Collins or Colorado Springs even though it arguably could using similar argument for SLC CSA.

Seattle-Tacoma CSA is not similar to SLC in any way; people here in the puget sound are truly dependent upon each other, with King County leading the way for jobs (which is the way Washington State intended it). In this regard I feel OKC is similar as far as the job and economic/entertainment engine for that region and therefore could be lumped.

Bunty - you mentioned just under 15% (which I thought was the catchment) of Stillwater folks work in OKC - but what about shopping, entertainment, transportation - I bet it's higher than that and probably higher than 15% work in OKC if you also include the metro area outside of OKC. Also I'm sure there's OKC metro folks that work in Stillwater at OSU.

Point is, Stillwater is just as dependent on OKC metro as Ogden or Provo are. Would Ogden or Provo exist if SLC weren't there? I'd say yes. Would Stillwater exist if OKC weren't there? I'd say no.

One thing's for sure, College towns ARE indeed hard to classify when they're away from a metro but still have close ties. Stillwater is that oddball for OKC.

Bunty - you mentioned just under 15% (which I thought was the catchment) of Stillwater folks work in OKC - but what about shopping, entertainment, transportation - I bet it's higher than that and probably higher than 15% work in OKC if you also include the metro area outside of OKC. Also I'm sure there's OKC metro folks that work in Stillwater at OSU.

Point is, Stillwater is just as dependent on OKC metro as Ogden or Provo are. Would Ogden or Provo exist if SLC weren't there? I'd say yes. Would Stillwater exist if OKC weren't there? I'd say no.

One thing's for sure, College towns ARE indeed hard to classify when they're away from a metro but still have close ties. Stillwater is that oddball for OKC.

I doubt as many as just under 15% of Stillwater folks work in the OKC metro. I bet more people all together work at the Toro plant in Perry, Sooner power plant located between Ponca City and Stillwater and in Ponca City itself.

Would Stillwater exist if OKC weren't there? I'd say YES, because of OSU.
Would Stillwater exist if OSU weren't there? I'd still say yes, but would, of course be smaller. Somebody has to work at the manufacturing plants, led by ASCO Aerospace. Stillwater has been referred to as a blue collar college town. The town's efforts to attract manufacturing plants from the 1960s to 1970s led to its fastest growth period in population since 1950.

As we were discussing MSA’s, I saw an article about a proposal to increase the population threshold from 50k to 100k in order to be considered a metropolitan area. It’s not sitting well with Lawton or Enid which would no longer be classified as metros if passed.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/cities-object-to-federal-proposal-to-downgrade-their-population-classification/article_fb549a0c-882f-11eb-a9ee-7b016fe25c6a.html

As we were discussing MSA’s, I saw an article about a proposal to increase the population threshold from 50k to 100k in order to be considered a metropolitan area. It’s not sitting well with Lawton or Enid which would no longer be classified as metros if passed.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/cities-object-to-federal-proposal-to-downgrade-their-population-classification/article_fb549a0c-882f-11eb-a9ee-7b016fe25c6a.html

But Enid in recent years dipped below 50,000 in population, so maybe it shouldn't be currently a metro now, especially if the upcoming 2020 census results indicates as such.

In the case of Stillwater, when you minus the college students it's only a city of about 30,000 at best. Further more, if too many college students didn't count themselves as Stillwater residents in the 2020 census after OSU shut down in March, due to the pandemic, then Stillwater may not even show as much as it did in the 2010 census, which is 45,688. Like Enid, Stillwater had lost a little from the 2019 census estimate from 2018, but unlike Enid, Stillwater still a bit over 50,000. Anyway, I wonder if the Stillwater mayor has been informed about the proposal?

It’s sad that the majority of Oklahoma doesn’t seem to be doing that well outside of the OKC Metro.

It’s sad that the majority of Oklahoma doesn’t seem to be doing that well outside of the OKC Metro.

So true, our state needs to protect communities like Enid & Lawton. Enid continues to show signs of slight growth despite losing Continental Resources to OKC. Glad CR decided to remain in-state; they could have taken the Phillips 66 route.

Feel the same about Tulsa when WPX decided to stay in-state and move to OKC. Oklahoma's growth depends on healthy communities like Tulsa, Lawton & Enid. Our state legislators need to take more of a lead on the MSA designated issue.

I think those towns and the other fair sized towns will do fine. With rural populations in parts of the state stagnant or declining, the small towns dotted every 5 - 10 miles apart. Now that we have cars it just isn't necessary to have your markets that close together.

As we were discussing MSA’s, I saw an article about a proposal to increase the population threshold from 50k to 100k in order to be considered a metropolitan area. It’s not sitting well with Lawton or Enid which would no longer be classified as metros if passed.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/cities-object-to-federal-proposal-to-downgrade-their-population-classification/article_fb549a0c-882f-11eb-a9ee-7b016fe25c6a.html

Lawton and esp Enid aren't metropolitan areas anyway. What's metropolitan about them? What suburbs do they draw from?

A metro area is a collection of cities that together act as a major city. Lawton would still be passable as a metro area since it has just over 100K in it's city alone and does sort of have suburbs esp if you consider connecting it with Wichita Falls, but Enid? where's the suburbs?

I think it only makes sense that Lawton would be the absolute minimum setup to be a metro area and even then is pushing it imo.

I think those towns and the other fair sized towns will do fine. With rural populations in parts of the state stagnant or declining, the small towns dotted every 5 - 10 miles apart. Now that we have cars it just isn't necessary to have your markets that close together.

Sounds like good advanced advice from the year 1921. But it's 2021.

Durant is the best example of a Oklahoma town not part of a metro that has been doing fine year after year. Bartlesville, Stillwater, Ada and some others aren't doing bad.

Lawton and esp Enid aren't metropolitan areas anyway. What's metropolitan about them? What suburbs do they draw from?

A metro area is a collection of cities that together act as a major city. Lawton would still be passable as a metro area since it has just over 100K in it's city alone and does sort of have suburbs esp if you consider connecting it with Wichita Falls, but Enid? where's the suburbs?

I think it only makes sense that Lawton would be the absolute minimum setup to be a metro area and even then is pushing it imo.

In turn, the requirement for micropolitan areas could be moved up from 50,000 to 100,000 pop., but doubt rural people would like that.

The 2019 pop. estimate for Lawton was 93,025 and going down.

Enid should be disqualified as a metro, if it can't officially get its population for 2020 above 50,000.

Sounds like good advanced advice from the year 1921. But it's 2021.

Huh?

Durant's population growth is honestly probably due more to its proximity to DFW than anything else.

Huh?
You, "Now that we have cars it just isn't necessary to have your markets that close together."

Durant's population growth is honestly probably due more to its proximity to DFW than anything else.

I doubt it. Ardmore is only a few miles further away from DFW and has just barely grown since 2010. In Durant, the Choctaws have done a lot of job creating construction. For instance, their casino resort draws a lot of people from DFW so in that sense being in fairly close proximity to DFW helps. The casino is 8th largest in the the USA.

You, "Now that we have cars it just isn't necessary to have your markets that close together."

How is that no longers relevant?

.


I doubt it. Ardmore is only a few miles further away from DFW and has just barely grown since 2010. In Durant, the Choctaws have done a lot of job creating construction. For instance, their casino resort draws a lot of people from DFW so in that sense being in fairly close proximity to DFW helps. The casino is 8th largest in the the USA.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnNpLI6SNjk

In turn, the requirement for micropolitan areas could be moved up from 50,000 to 100,000 pop., but doubt rural people would like that.

The 2019 pop. estimate for Lawton was 93,025 and going down.

Enid should be disqualified as a metro, if it can't officially get its population for 2020 above 50,000.

oh wow, I didn't realize Lawton dropped below 100K where they've long been. But I can sort of see Lawton as a metro area esp when combined with Wichita Falls.

IMO, Oklahoma has 3 metro areas (OKC, Tulsa, Lawton), the rest are micropolitan at best but IMO that shouldn't even be a concept in that we/census is just saying that for a city at a certain population; it's either Metropolitan (group of cities that act like and/or are dependent on the main city) or not. ...

Hotel corporations use metropolitan monikers in their hotel names: Fairfield Inn & Suites Oklahoma City El Reno (https://www.marriott.com/hotels/travel/okcel-fairfield-inn-and-suites-oklahoma-city-el-reno/) or SPRINGHILL SUITES OKLAHOMA CITY MOORE (https://www.marriott.com/hotels/travel/okcmo-springhill-suites-oklahoma-city-moore/) from Marriott Top Hotels in Oklahoma City | Marriott OKC Hotels (https://www.marriott.com/hotel-search/oklahoma-city.hotels.oklahoma.united-states.travel/) for example, where the metro area then specific city is noted.

Wow, that Choctaw resort in Durant looks spectacular.

oh wow, I didn't realize Lawton dropped below 100K where they've long been. But I can sort of see Lawton as a metro area esp when combined with Wichita Falls.Just to shed some light on Lawton, in some very broad brushstrokes, Lawton's economy has been tied to Ft. Sill for most of its history. It never hit 100k in population in the city itself in its most recent peak, but it's been in the 90s for quite some time. I would not say it has suburbs, but definitely has bedroom communities within 10-15 minutes whose citizens rely on Lawton for jobs and shopping, such as Elgin, Cache, Walters, and others. When counting these the metro area of Lawton is well over 100k. Lawton has done a poor job of either diversifying significantly or recruiting significant contractors that would bring in a lot of high paying jobs complimentary to Ft. Sill. It's certainly played a part in Lawton's stagnation over the last decade-plus. I think current leadership there is working hard to change that.

Some pretty interesting stats about population migration in OKC

https://kfor.com/news/where-are-new-people-moving-to-oklahoma-city-coming-from/

Genuinely and pleasantly surprised at the net migration being *into* OKC from places like Dallas, Houston, Austin and Denver.

Genuinely and pleasantly surprised at the net migration being *into* OKC from places like Dallas, Houston, Austin and Denver.

It’s getting too expensive in those places, we’re actually starting to get some decent restaurants and bars, and a lot of folks can now work from just about anywhere.

Wouldn’t hate it if OKC started to offer some incentives to remote workers, a la Tulsa.

Makes sense. Even with no income tax, housing is so expensive in DFW plus the super high property tax force some out of the market. Housing is still pretty good here in the OKC metro including decent schools. Most of my family in the DFW area had kids in private school only.

It’s getting too expensive in those places, we’re actually starting to get some decent restaurants and bars, and a lot of folks can now work from just about anywhere.

Wouldn’t hate it if OKC started to offer some incentives to remote workers, a la Tulsa.

My house in Denver has now tripled in 20 years but we can't afford to move in Denver because some parts are 10x or more due to gentrification.

Some pretty interesting stats about population migration in OKC

https://kfor.com/news/where-are-new-people-moving-to-oklahoma-city-coming-from/

Very interesting, but 2018 data is ancient history at this point.