Yeaaaaaaaah I’m usually the first to criticize OKC but as someone who doesn’t want to live there I am still calling bull on many of the claims made agains the city. It’s a matter of opinion of course, but after having been to many art museums and cultural attractions as I get more involved with it in LA, I see OKC has some pretty good museums and amenities. Obviously they compare to what a cosmopolitan city can offer but how many cities of OKC’s size does? Tulsa is incredibly lucky to have something like the Gilcrease Museum. I often here many in LA community complain that our museums are lacking even with having a museum like The Getty.

As far as some of the other criticisms like “the city is geared for old white people,” what a quick way to instantly ruin any credibility you had. Mayor Holt even just came out and said he is making seeking a more diverse voice for the city one of his main objectives. Quit living in the past. OKC is a very diverse city. Almost every time I’m in the core I always here a chatter of about 2-3 foreign languages and I constantly meet foreigners who have settled down there and love it. My entire family is Persian and Brazilian and they love OKC. No issue with “amenities geared towards white old people.”

One other thing I want to point out about OKC is that the LGBT scene is an absolute joke for a city this size. I'm not talking about LGBT-friendliness as much as activities available for gay people to meet other people other than bars or phone apps. The 39th St strip is neglected and depressing and desperately needs some investment to bring it out of the 1980s. It needs to be integrated into the urban fabric of the city like gayborhoods are in just about every other small and major city in 2019. Living here really feels like living in a small town stuck in the past in that respect.
Some people ought to be part of the change. Food for thought.

I live in DFW and so here's a few thoughts.

First, DFW's sprawl mitigates some of its advantages because traffic and distance make the additional amenities unrealistic. For example, DFW has an MLB team. Guess what? Getting to Arlington is a nightmare so we never actually go even though we'd love to. It's worth pointing out that there's no public transportation to Arlington because of greedy billionaires who control city councils and wanted to make huge profits off parking. Many of the same sprawl reasons apply to the MLS team in Frisco. Still, the Mavs and Stars are easier to see as there actually is public transportation that can get you there and the area is more worth visiting. So, DFW should be better than it is. Moreover, since DFW is sprawly, it really doesn't have the urban fabric it should have. Yes, Deep Ellum and Bishop Arts are great (if not gentrifying) districts, but are they that much better than the Plaza District and OKC's other emerging districts? Moreover, I'll point out that OKC's brewery scene, for example, is flat out better than DFWs. The density of breweries in the core and quality of breweries makes it a better place for craft beer drinkers... and breweries are actually great community spaces. Anyway, just pointing out that some areas where DFW should be great are just not the case.

I lost the rest of this post because the site made me re-log in for same reason, but I wrote a long explanation of how DFW does have real advantages too (e.g., LGBTQ, Mexican-American communities) and you can live in walkable areas and avoid the traffic (I do). Sorry, I just can't retype out that part of my post again.

Regarding sprawl and traffic making trips to certain amenities not worthwhile, you just described every major in the US.

Yes, to some extent but not to others. DFW is special when it comes to how much land it takes up and how much it has changed in 20 years since I lived there. It is nothing short of colossally huge - then there's the Ft. Worth side.......

... I see plenty of minorities in attendance at the theater, philharmonic, museums.

...

TBH, I don't. Went to 3 ballets this season (8 PM Sat night for all), saw maybe 10 black people total, and not many more than that of other minority groups (and I generally look around during intermissions). Don't go to the Phil, but at any OKCMOA exhibit (we go on Sat afternoons, usually), we hardly ever see anybody except white people.

First, DFW's sprawl mitigates some of its advantages because traffic and distance make the additional amenities unrealistic. For example, DFW has an MLB team. Guess what? Getting to Arlington is a nightmare so we never actually go even though we'd love to. It's worth pointing out that there's no public transportation to Arlington because of greedy billionaires who control city councils and wanted to make huge profits off parking. Many of the same sprawl reasons apply to the MLS team in Frisco. Still, the Mavs and Stars are easier to see as there actually is public transportation that can get you there and the area is more worth visiting. So, DFW should be better than it is. Moreover, since DFW is sprawly, it really doesn't have the urban fabric it should have. Yes, Deep Ellum and Bishop Arts are great (if not gentrifying) districts, but are they that much better than the Plaza District and OKC's other emerging districts? Moreover, I'll point out that OKC's brewery scene, for example, is flat out better than DFWs. The density of breweries in the core and quality of breweries makes it a better place for craft beer drinkers... and breweries are actually great community spaces. Anyway, just pointing out that some areas where DFW should be great are just not the case.

Just a few years ago I would have said DFW and Texas was light years ahead but now I'd say I'm pretty satisfied with the beer scene in OKC. I also think Oklahoma will probably end up with recreational marijuana before Texas even has medical.

I think what may be really needed is a change in marketing approach for OKC. More people need to be made of aware of niche activities OKC does offer. What changes are needed or what they would look like, I'm not sure.

Yeaaaaaaaah I’m usually the first to criticize OKC but as someone who doesn’t want to live there I am still calling bull on many of the claims made agains the city. It’s a matter of opinion of course, but after having been to many art museums and cultural attractions as I get more involved with it in LA, I see OKC has some pretty good museums and amenities. Obviously they compare to what a cosmopolitan city can offer but how many cities of OKC’s size does? Tulsa is incredibly lucky to have something like the Gilcrease Museum. I often here many in LA community complain that our museums are lacking even with having a museum like The Getty.

As far as some of the other criticisms like “the city is geared for old white people,” what a quick way to instantly ruin any credibility you had. Mayor Holt even just came out and said he is making seeking a more diverse voice for the city one of his main objectives. Quit living in the past. OKC is a very diverse city. Almost every time I’m in the core I always here a chatter of about 2-3 foreign languages and I constantly meet foreigners who have settled down there and love it. My entire family is Persian and Brazilian and they love OKC. No issue with “amenities geared towards white old people.”

In other words, "I refuse to acknowledge your experience because it is not mine." Cool bro...

In other words, "I refuse to acknowledge your experience because it is not mine." Cool bro...

Yeah, every person's experience is different. My biggest reason for wanting to leave is personal and has nothing to do with what the city does or doesn't offer.

In other words, "I refuse to acknowledge your experience because it is not mine." Cool bro...

Oh please I even said it was my opinion. A little reading comprehension goes along way. I swear this forum has some of the most thin skinned posters I’ve seen on any forum online.

Using your logic I could’ve copied and paste exactly what you said to a vast majority of the latest posts here. It is a meaningless response you posted.

Edit: I should not have said the whole forum rather than a select few posters who pull this crap. I should not have to emphasize every time I post my opinion that is an opinion.

I can’t think of any reason why I would drive to Dallas because it “has something OKC doesn’t.”

I can’t think of any reason why I would drive to Dallas because it “has something OKC doesn’t.”

I'm going this weekend to hit up the bars in Oak Lawn. OKC has nothing like it.

But I definitely see your point.

I can’t think of any reason why I would drive to Dallas because it “has something OKC doesn’t.”

Half my fun of going to DFW is to see all the new building, rail and highway construction. There are always new things - gotta see the new baseball stadium next.

Half my fun of going to DFW is to see all the new building, rail and highway construction. There are always new things - gotta see the new baseball stadium next.

It’s quite a city. I’m with you, checking out all that’s new is incredibly fun.
Houston is the same way, just not the quick drive from OKC.

Yeaaaaaaaah I’m usually the first to criticize OKC but as someone who doesn’t want to live there I am still calling bull on many of the claims made agains the city. It’s a matter of opinion of course, but after having been to many art museums and cultural attractions as I get more involved with it in LA, I see OKC has some pretty good museums and amenities. Obviously they compare to what a cosmopolitan city can offer but how many cities of OKC’s size does? Tulsa is incredibly lucky to have something like the Gilcrease Museum. I often here many in LA community complain that our museums are lacking even with having a museum like The Getty.

As far as some of the other criticisms like “the city is geared for old white people,” what a quick way to instantly ruin any credibility you had. Mayor Holt even just came out and said he is making seeking a more diverse voice for the city one of his main objectives. Quit living in the past. OKC is a very diverse city. Almost every time I’m in the core I always here a chatter of about 2-3 foreign languages and I constantly meet foreigners who have settled down there and love it. My entire family is Persian and Brazilian and they love OKC. No issue with “amenities geared towards white old people.”

I mean, man, it's fine if you disagree, and I get you may have different tastes, but really, I've lived here for 38 years, I also travel VERY extensively, I do go to other museums, I do take in a lot of other places and a lot of the available things here. Also, for the thousanth time, dude all I Was commenting on really was that we don't have a diverse enough labor market for me to find a job here doing what I do that pays what I cost. It's as simple as that, we don't have tech, we don't have consumer products companies. We just don't have the jobs, and my original post was that yeah I find a lot of the amenities lacking, but the art I make with friends and the scene I'm in here makes up for that. But, we don't have jobs for me. But really, yes, this is a city that puts all of it's weight and capital in making itself a family friendly, christian friendly kind of place, and as neither a christian or a "family man" a lot of the mainstream places don't appear to me as much. I mean dude, I went to a fabulous Jean Arp exhibition at the Nasher a month or so ago in Dallas, across from the retrospective on American Precisionism at DMA, a little while prior to that I went to the Stuart Davis retrospective at Crystal Bridges, and on and on and on, these are all actually super softball, wide audience kind of traveling exhibits and still massively better than the bible exhibits and paper dress exhibits that the OKCMOA get (I mean we have an impressionism exhibit coming up, but godamn man, its not the 60's). I do actually know what I'm talking about and I find your tone pretty condescending. I don't hate this city at all, but it IS geared to middle class families from the suburbs for the most part because that's who pays the bills. Fact is if youre like me and are 38 and dont have kids around here and haven't moved to Moore or Edmond, you're weird and this city isn't really made for you. But really, I'm glad you enjoy it, and it's my home, born and raised and I enjoy it too, I just always wish it could grow out of it's comfy little niche and be a little more edgy, a little more exciting.

Yeaaaaaaaah I’m usually the first to criticize OKC but as someone who doesn’t want to live there I am still calling bull on many of the claims made agains the city. It’s a matter of opinion of course, but after having been to many art museums and cultural attractions as I get more involved with it in LA, I see OKC has some pretty good museums and amenities. Obviously they compare to what a cosmopolitan city can offer but how many cities of OKC’s size does? Tulsa is incredibly lucky to have something like the Gilcrease Museum. I often here many in LA community complain that our museums are lacking even with having a museum like The Getty.

As far as some of the other criticisms like “the city is geared for old white people,” what a quick way to instantly ruin any credibility you had. Mayor Holt even just came out and said he is making seeking a more diverse voice for the city one of his main objectives. Quit living in the past. OKC is a very diverse city. Almost every time I’m in the core I always here a chatter of about 2-3 foreign languages and I constantly meet foreigners who have settled down there and love it. My entire family is Persian and Brazilian and they love OKC. No issue with “amenities geared towards white old people.”

Wait you don't even live here? and dude I live "in the core" hahahaha omg

Okay this has spun out of control, and I'll admit some fault on that.

I just want to clarify that I don't think that this is a racist place. That is not what I or EBAH are insinuating. I've enjoyed my entire time in Oklahoma as a person of color. Outside of general ignorance, I've never experienced real racism.

What we are saying is that the vast majority of consumers, leaders, and politicians in Oklahoma are caucasian. By no fault of their own or the businesses that serve them, everything here is catered to that majority in a very obvious way. It is likely not a big deal to most people, but it is frustrating that people who do not drink the Kool-Aid that Oklahoma is on the cutting edge are dismissed. There are a lot of us who, while we appreciate the strides OKC has made, based on what we have experienced elsewhere, there are other cities who just do what OKC does better. Some of us don't have 5-10 years to just wait for it to maybe get where we want it to be. Some of us don't have time or resources to "do it ourselves". It's just a fact that there are people in this city/state who have lifestyle preferences that don't line up with what it offers. I don't think it's fair to just assume we haven't Oklahoma'd correctly.

And Dallas doesn't count in my opinion. I feel like I'm driving through a giant mall when I'm there. It feels so inorganically grown because they literally just bring every store, every brand, every restaurant, every amenity and put it on every corner. It's like the Dubai of America.

I mean, man, it's fine if you disagree, and I get you may have different tastes, but really, I've lived here for 38 years, I also travel VERY extensively, I do go to other museums, I do take in a lot of other places and a lot of the available things here. Also, for the thousanth time, dude all I Was commenting on really was that we don't have a diverse enough labor market for me to find a job here doing what I do that pays what I cost. It's as simple as that, we don't have tech, we don't have consumer products companies. We just don't have the jobs, and my original post was that yeah I find a lot of the amenities lacking, but the art I make with friends and the scene I'm in here makes up for that. But, we don't have jobs for me. But really, yes, this is a city that puts all of it's weight and capital in making itself a family friendly, christian friendly kind of place, and as neither a christian or a "family man" a lot of the mainstream places don't appear to me as much. I mean dude, I went to a fabulous Jean Arp exhibition at the Nasher a month or so ago in Dallas, across from the retrospective on American Precisionism at DMA, a little while prior to that I went to the Stuart Davis retrospective at Crystal Bridges, and on and on and on, these are all actually super softball, wide audience kind of traveling exhibits and still massively better than the bible exhibits and paper dress exhibits that the OKCMOA get (I mean we have an impressionism exhibit coming up, but godamn man, its not the 60's). I do actually know what I'm talking about and I find your tone pretty condescending. I don't hate this city at all, but it IS geared to middle class families from the suburbs for the most part because that's who pays the bills. Fact is if youre like me and are 38 and dont have kids around here and haven't moved to Moore or Edmond, you're weird and this city isn't really made for you. But really, I'm glad you enjoy it, and it's my home, born and raised and I enjoy it too, I just always wish it could grow out of it's comfy little niche and be a little more edgy, a little more exciting.
Sorry dude but when you use a stupid term like “geared towards old white people” you loose credibility.

Have a seat and join the travelers but because he/she can bond with you over your opinions that my tone is condescending. I really could care less what you think.

Wait you don't even live here? and dude I live "in the core" hahahaha omg
I am not sure why you find that funny but no, I live in Los Angeles. I was born in OKC and raised in Dallas in my early teen years and OKC my later Years.

The reason I have chosen to move to, and stay in Oklahoma City is because of the opportunity be a part of building something.

I kind of look at it like a job. Living in NYC or Seattle etc is like working for Google. Well established, stable, you will get all the perks that come with that but (most people) are not going to have any real say in the direction the company goes.

Living in OKC is kind of like joining a startup company. Not nearly as many perks, and the pay isnt as good. The start up may never truly be successful or make it big. But you can jump in and have an actual say in how things get done. There is access to get involved more and maybe become a decision maker. And since you are in on the ground floor, if the start up does make it big you will reap a much larger reward.

That's just how I have come to look at it. I definitely understand the pull of the major city and i have lived in several different ones including Dallas, and Dallas ain't it. Dallas is greatly overrated. You get all of the hassles of a major city with almost zero perks. Besides the job market being hot, Ive never understood the pull Dallas has.

But you can jump in and have an actual say in how things get done. There is access to get involved more and maybe become a decision maker. And since you are in on the ground floor, if the start up does make it big you will reap a much larger reward.
.

Very true as shown by the recent elections for City Council and Mayor. Lots of young new blood which is great.

I'm going to jump in on this. One of the reasons why I'm here/still here is because of the cheap cost of living and because I know the area. As you get older its harder to just pick up and move some place new when you have no connections to it. I'm retired on a state pension. The state does give decent tax break to pensions. ($10K exemption of retirement income) Yah I know some states have no state income tax but they have to make it up some how. Texas has high property tax. Now how is that a savings??? At least with the cap you know how much your property tax is going up each year. When you are on a fixed income and I mean fix since we have had no colas in 11 years and everything like health insurrance, auto and food etc continues to climb. Oh but you can get another job and go back to work. Not if your health doesn't allow you much. I saw that this state ie Okc and Tulsa is not a bad place if you are retired. Now rural areas with doctor shortages and hospital closings is another issue. For the 2 metro areas I say overall the medical situations is not too awful. Add in the lower cost of housing and outdoor things to do, and cheap groceries and more of the larger stores coming or have come here. Not too bad after all for those of us retired.

I am not sure why you find that funny but no, I live in Los Angeles. I was born in OKC and raised in Dallas in my early teen years and OKC my later Years.

Well, it's not really funny, I'm just saying you're jumping on me saying my art museums are adequate, there are plenty of things to do, there are plenty of good amenities, it's diverse enough, yadda yadda, and like, man, I LIVE here, and have every year of the last 38, 2-3 miles outside of the very center, I ride my bike through this city every day, I make art here, I spend my money here, I entertain myself here. And yes, the large institutions are mostly targeted at white middle class families and as an actual citizen of this city 24 hours a day, I experience that. It's not funny that you don't live here, it's laughable at your supposed expertise in MY home.

Well, it's not really funny, I'm just saying you're jumping on me saying my art museums are adequate, there are plenty of things to do, there are plenty of good amenities, it's diverse enough, yadda yadda, and like, man, I LIVE here, and have every year of the last 38, 2-3 miles outside of the very center, I ride my bike through this city every day, I make art here, I spend my money here, I entertain myself here. And yes, the large institutions are mostly targeted at white middle class families and as an actual citizen of this city 24 hours a day, I experience that. It's not funny that you don't live here, it's laughable at your supposed expertise in MY home.

Exactly. This dude has barely lived here and gets all his information from an online message board. Trying to tell lifelong citizens they don't know their own city.

Oklahoma City & Tulsa are the state's most populated cities. Just amazed how both communities have strategic plans for change. True, it's a slow and methodical process--these cities don't have room for mistakes.

We are seeing 'change' in Oklahoma that will chart its future; especially in the areas of liquor & marijuana laws, straight & gay, whites & non whites, young & old along with families & singles.

OKC is becoming more diverse with communities & districts like Asian, Capitol Hill, Stockyards City, Plaza, Paseo Arts, Bricktown, Midtown & Northeast with well planned vibrant commerce districts with community input.

OKC reflects a sampling of the virtues & vices of big cities; so with that said, we need to plan & manage our growth.

There are a lot of us who, while we appreciate the strides OKC has made, based on what we have experienced elsewhere, there are other cities who just do what OKC does better. Some of us don't have 5-10 years to just wait for it to maybe get where we want it to be. Some of us don't have time or resources to "do it ourselves". It's just a fact that there are people in this city/state who have lifestyle preferences that don't line up with what it offers. I don't think it's fair to just assume we haven't Oklahoma'd correctly.

This is me 100%. I'll probably be in OKC one more year, unless something unexpected happens. After that my current plan is to move even if I have to pick a city and just go. I'm currently working on saving enough so that I have a cushion in case it takes me some time to find employment. The last thing I'd want to do is leave and end up back here broke and unemployed. But I've also reached the point in my life where it's getting time to "crap or get off the pot" as they say. I either need to move somewhere that I feel is a better fit or I just need to accept living in OKC long-term and buy a house here.



And Dallas doesn't count in my opinion. I feel like I'm driving through a giant mall when I'm there. It feels so inorganically grown because they literally just bring every store, every brand, every restaurant, every amenity and put it on every corner. It's like the Dubai of America.

As a last resort I may end up moving to Dallas, but it's not my favorite city and there are others I'd rather move to. However, as a single gay mid-30s man, I think I'd be happier in Dallas than in OKC, despite its drawbacks like traffic and sprawl. I can see myself living there and liking it.

I've tried everything I know how to do to force myself to be happy in OKC because after all, it would be so much easier for me to just stay here and put down roots than to move.

But really, yes, this is a city that puts all of it's weight and capital in making itself a family friendly, christian friendly kind of place, and as neither a christian or a "family man" a lot of the mainstream places don't appear to me as much.

Yes, OKC is the buckle of the Bible Belt and is proud of it. As somebody who has experienced a lot of religious trauma in my life, including ex-gay conversion therapy, this specific issue makes it hard for me to live in OKC even though the urban core is more liberal and more secular. In fact, living in the urban core is the only thing that has made this place tolerable for me at all. I'm sure I'll take some heat for saying this.

I mean, man, it's fine if you disagree, and I get you may have different tastes, but really, I've lived here for 38 years, I also travel VERY extensively, I do go to other museums, I do take in a lot of other places and a lot of the available things here. Also, for the thousanth time, dude all I Was commenting on really was that we don't have a diverse enough labor market for me to find a job here doing what I do that pays what I cost. It's as simple as that, we don't have tech, we don't have consumer products companies. We just don't have the jobs, and my original post was that yeah I find a lot of the amenities lacking, but the art I make with friends and the scene I'm in here makes up for that. But, we don't have jobs for me. But really, yes, this is a city that puts all of it's weight and capital in making itself a family friendly, christian friendly kind of place, and as neither a christian or a "family man" a lot of the mainstream places don't appear to me as much. I mean dude, I went to a fabulous Jean Arp exhibition at the Nasher a month or so ago in Dallas, across from the retrospective on American Precisionism at DMA, a little while prior to that I went to the Stuart Davis retrospective at Crystal Bridges, and on and on and on, these are all actually super softball, wide audience kind of traveling exhibits and still massively better than the bible exhibits and paper dress exhibits that the OKCMOA get (I mean we have an impressionism exhibit coming up, but godamn man, its not the 60's). I do actually know what I'm talking about and I find your tone pretty condescending. I don't hate this city at all, but it IS geared to middle class families from the suburbs for the most part because that's who pays the bills. Fact is if youre like me and are 38 and dont have kids around here and haven't moved to Moore or Edmond, you're weird and this city isn't really made for you. But really, I'm glad you enjoy it, and it's my home, born and raised and I enjoy it too, I just always wish it could grow out of it's comfy little niche and be a little more edgy, a little more exciting.

I'll tell you the same thing I told bchris02. If you're one of those people whose happiness requires something Oklahoma just doesn't have, then this probably isn't the place for you.

If your dream is to be a deep sea fisherman, then you need to go somewhere next to an ocean. If you want to look out your window and see the Statue of Liberty, well we don't have that here. You're not going to be able to train for the Olympic snowskiing team here in a state with no big mountains and no snow. Oklahoma has a lot of great amenities for a lot of different people, but if you want something super-specialized, we very well may not have it. I don't think most cities our size are going to have the things you desire. If you're only gonna be happy in a city of 10 million people, then by all means follow your dreams.

But I think you may have a hard time finding a city with tons of ultra specialized art galleries, operas, ballets, and is majority non-white and non-Christian and also is within your price range. Every city on Earth is a compromise to some degree.

In fact, living in the urban core is the only thing that has made this place tolerable for me at all. I'm sure I'll take some heat for saying this.

Even coming from a different perspective (non-gay, none of those experiences), I understand where you are coming from with this and agree to a large degree. I would probably not still be here either without the more liberal and secular urban core growing and doing its thing.

Yes, OKC is the buckle of the Bible Belt and is proud of it. As somebody who has experienced a lot of religious trauma in my life, including ex-gay conversion therapy, this specific issue makes it hard for me to live in OKC even though the urban core is more liberal and more secular. In fact, living in the urban core is the only thing that has made this place tolerable for me at all. I'm sure I'll take some heat for saying this.

While I agree with you that OKC is in the Bible Belt, calling it the buckle is asinine. You are just used to seeing the stuff here. Texas is probably worse, and I am sure there are states east of Texas much worse than Oklahoma.

Larger cities will generally have larger subcultures. If you are a gay asian man who reenacts Klingon operas, then you might have a hard time finding a large group of like-minded people in OKC. I'm sure Los Angeles will have a dozen chapters of the gay asian Klingon opera club, but they've got a lot more people than we do.

I truly believe that most people can be very happy here in OKC. The people here are laid back and friendly, and there's a hell of a lot more stuff to do than there used to be. We've still got a ways to go before we're competitive with other 2nd tier cities, but we've made tremendous progress very quickly. OKC is like an older neighborhood where people are fixing up all the houses. Buy now because in 10 years you won't be able to afford it.

Now maybe you're one of those handful of people who just can't find what they're looking for here. That's okay, different people want different things. But you can't blame OKC for not being San Francisco or Manhattan.

Larger cities will generally have larger subcultures. If you are a gay asian man who reenacts Klingon operas, then you might have a hard time finding a large group of like-minded people in OKC. I'm sure Los Angeles will have a dozen chapters of the gay asian Klingon opera club, but they've got a lot more people than we do.

I truly believe that most people can be very happy here in OKC. The people here are laid back and friendly, and there's a hell of a lot more stuff to do than there used to be. We've still got a ways to go before we're competitive with other 2nd tier cities, but we've made tremendous progress very quickly. OKC is like an older neighborhood where people are fixing up all the houses. Buy now because in 10 years you won't be able to afford it.

Now maybe you're one of those handful of people who just can't find what they're looking for here. That's okay, different people want different things. But you can't blame OKC for not being San Francisco or Manhattan.

Yeah I mean like I've said numerous times in this thread, I'M HAPPY HERE, THERE IS JUST NO JOB MARKET FOR ME. And I'm not comparing it to Manhattan or LA, I'm comparing it to Louisville, Kansas City, etc who have a more diverse economy and more arts and culture amenities. I'm totally fine living here and appreciate the scale and comfort of this place. But, when I start looking for a job again, there just literally aren't almost any options. This city has made a lot of progress and I've been here for it and been an active part of it, but I am a bit disappointed that our economy hasn't diversified very much over the same period. I can live with the amenities and still find loads of fun things to do.

And to the point of the art museum, they had a show a couple of years ago of art made by people born after the capitalization of China, it was actually maybe the best touring exhibit our museum has had in a long time, and we haven't had anything of that caliber since. But a very good illustration of how the people funding our institutions affect the content of a place like that and how it influences what gets to come through here were the signs warning you more than once of "objectionable content" in the exhibit. When I asked the desk attendant what the objectionable content was, having just gone through the exhibit and not being able to figure it out, I was told it was a video installation of several 17-20 boys partying in an apartment in their underwear. Basically because it could have been maybe seen as vaguely gay in nature. That's not a good art museum.

Yeah I mean like I've said numerous times in this thread, I'M HAPPY HERE, THERE IS JUST NO JOB MARKET FOR ME. And I'm not comparing it to Manhattan or LA, I'm comparing it to Louisville, Kansas City, etc who have a more diverse economy and more arts and culture amenities. I'm totally fine living here and appreciate the scale and comfort of this place. But, when I start looking for a job again, there just literally aren't almost any options. This city has made a lot of progress and I've been here for it and been an active part of it, but I am a bit disappointed that our economy hasn't diversified very much over the same period. I can live with the amenities and still find loads of fun things to do.

I am curious as to what job you are looking for that isn't in OKC? ( I realize we don't offer every job like Hoya's reference to deep sea fisherman).

Even coming from a different perspective (non-gay, none of those experiences), I understand where you are coming from with this and agree to a large degree. I would probably not still be here either without the more liberal and secular urban core growing and doing its thing.

I’ve lived in the urban core for years. I have a fairly large base of friends who live in the core and I maybe know 1 to 2 people who are even remotely religious. But I’ve never really ran into that problem anywhere I’ve been in Oklahoma. I even grew up in rural western Oklahoma and went to school at OSU and in both places the vast majority of the people I knew and interacted with weren’t religious. Of course this could be a unique experience of mine and people of like mind usually find each other. The “Bible Belt” thing about Oklahoma has just never been a problem for me.

I am curious as to what job you are looking for that isn't in OKC? ( I realize we don't offer every job like Hoya's reference to deep sea fisherman).

I'm a designer and product developer. There are a few jobs like that in Oklahoma City, I have had a couple. But when you reach the higher level (I've been a product designer for 10+ years) we have only kind of two types, either one for a cool tiny company that pays hilariously low, or one for an oil related company or like insurance company that pays well but offers very little exciting work. I could always freelance, but again, not a lot of clients here so it'd likely still mean working out of state for the most part. This is a pretty awful market to look for real design or tech jobs in, even Omaha is better, then when you get to the level of KC or Minneapolis it gets like worlds better, and then of course LA/SF/NYC are on a whole other planet.

But a very good illustration of how the people funding our institutions affect the content of a place like that and how it influences what gets to come through here were the signs warning you more than once of "objectionable content" in the exhibit. When I asked the desk attendant what the objectionable content was, having just gone through the exhibit and not being able to figure it out, I was told it was a video installation of several 17-20 boys partying in an apartment in their underwear. Basically because it could have been maybe seen as vaguely gay in nature. That's not a good art museum.

This is exactly the kind of stuff I'm talking about when I criticize the Bible Belt mentality of OKC. I maybe shouldn't have said this is the buckle because that can be argued until the end of the world, but fundamentalism runs deep in the dominant culture here. And when I say dominant culture, I'm talking Edmond and far NW OKC culture because that's where most of the money is.

Like I've said though, the urban core of OKC is a liberal, tolerant, open-minded, and progressive oasis, but it's also small.

I was told it was a video installation of several 17-20 boys partying in an apartment in their underwear. Basically because it could have been maybe seen as vaguely gay in nature.

If some of the subjects are teenagers, I could see people finding it objectionable because some of them are underage. But I will agree that OKC will generally choose the safe, family friendly option if they've got a choice.

This is exactly the kind of stuff I'm talking about when I criticize the Bible Belt mentality of OKC. I maybe shouldn't have said this is the buckle because that can be argued until the end of the world, but fundamentalism runs deep in the dominant culture here.

Like I've said though, the urban core of OKC is a liberal, tolerant, open-minded, and progressive oasis, but it's also small.

Oh completely agreed, the core of okc is chill, my wife and I joke that we try not to leave "the box" as we call the area between I235, I44, I40 and like 63rdish street, except to go to the inner south side which I also like just fine. I feel comfortable in the box, I like the box :)

If some of the subjects are teenagers, I could see people finding it objectionable because some of them are underage. But I will agree that OKC will generally choose the safe, family friendly option if they've got a choice.

oh yeah I can understand some people being shocked by it, but there was nothing of a sexual nature going on in the video and I'd be willing to bet $100 that if those boys had been in a football locker room no one would have thought anything of it at all

I'm a designer and product developer. There are a few jobs like that in Oklahoma City, I have had a couple. But when you reach the higher level (I've been a product designer for 10+ years) we have only kind of two types, either one for a cool tiny company that pays hilariously low, or one for an oil related company or like insurance company that pays well but offers very little exciting work. I could always freelance, but again, not a lot of clients here so it'd likely still mean working out of state for the most part. This is a pretty awful market to look for real design or tech jobs in, even Omaha is better, then when you get to the level of KC or Minneapolis it gets like worlds better, and then of course LA/SF/NYC are on a whole other planet.

And I'm not saying this to be rude at all, but sometimes to achieve one's goals, people sometimes have to move. I moved out of OKC when there were no bank and financial jobs to be had after Penn Square Bank and the oil bust. I found one decent job with Sooner Federal but was "let go" because I questioned their actions to merge with a bank from California - because OK law didn't allow out of state ownership. Moving may not be what you really want but if you have goals and dreams, sometimes you have to.

I’ve lived in the urban core for years. I have a fairly large base of friends who live in the core and I maybe know 1 to 2 people who are even remotely religious. But I’ve never really ran into that problem anywhere I’ve been in Oklahoma. I even grew up in rural western Oklahoma and went to school at OSU and in both places the vast majority of the people I knew and interacted with weren’t religious. Of course this could be a unique experience of mine and people of like mind usually find each other. The “Bible Belt” thing about Oklahoma has just never been a problem for me.

I also agree mostly with this statement, barely anyone I know is religious here either. I really only bring it up because I only notice it when it comes to what gets funded and what doesn't, the people that pay the bills around here ARE very religious. It's like the art museum thing, we get a bible exhibit and restrictions on certain content because the museum is partially funded by the kinds of people that run Mardels and Loves. I love my day to day here and I have a chosen family of great open minded urban people, it's just the kind of broad strokes city institutions do still have a very conservative nature that a lot of other cities have deliberately pushed back on over the years and have gone out of their way to ensure don't affect their institutions as much. Hell I think even Tulsa does a better job having people like George Kaiser to get help from. Philbrook has had much better content over the years than OKCMOA, noticeably so. When it comes to art and trying to expose people to things that create discourse and advancing tastes, it really starts to show who pays the bills.

While I agree with you that OKC is in the Bible Belt, calling it the buckle is asinine. You are just used to seeing the stuff here. Texas is probably worse, and I am sure there are states east of Texas much worse than Oklahoma.
Try Texas. Or Indiana. Colorado Springs is home of Focus onThe Family and other way conservative movements. I’ve heard Louisville called many things, but liberal or progressive isn’t one of them. Tennessee... Kentucky...South Carolina....Louisiana.....Virginia....Arkansas.... Georgia....Mississippi....more liberal, progressive, or politically advanced to Oklahoma? You have to be kidding. Arizona? New Mexico? Kansas?

I also agree mostly with this statement, barely anyone I know is religious here either. I really only bring it up because I only notice it when it comes to what gets funded and what doesn't, the people that pay the bills around here ARE very religious. It's like the art museum thing, we get a bible exhibit and restrictions on certain content because the museum is partially funded by the kinds of people that run Mardels and Loves. I love my day to day here and I have a chosen family of great open minded urban people, it's just the kind of broad strokes city institutions do still have a very conservative nature that a lot of other cities have deliberately pushed back on over the years and have gone out of their way to ensure don't affect their institutions as much. Hell I think even Tulsa does a better job having people like George Kaiser to get help from. Philbrook has had much better content over the years than OKCMOA, noticeably so. When it comes to art and trying to expose people to things that create discourse and advancing tastes, it really starts to show who pays the bills.

I have a couple of religious friends but they are very open minded Christians. Most of my other friends are atheists. So in my personal day to day as well, this isn't really a problem. However for the reason you mention, OKC still feels "churchy" to me in ways that almost any other major city does not. It's for this exact reason that the 39th Street strip is neglected and stuck in the 1980s and the city has made no effort to try to revitalize it and integrate it in with the broader urban core. Meanwhile, heaven forbid a December come and go without giant crosses being lit up in the downtown skyscrapers.

I will say though I'm a unique case. Other people without the history with religion that I personally have likely wouldn't be bothered as much as I am by this.

I also agree mostly with this statement, barely anyone I know is religious here either. I really only bring it up because I only notice it when it comes to what gets funded and what doesn't, the people that pay the bills around here ARE very religious. It's like the art museum thing, we get a bible exhibit and restrictions on certain content because the museum is partially funded by the kinds of people that run Mardels and Loves. I love my day to day here and I have a chosen family of great open minded urban people, it's just the kind of broad strokes city institutions do still have a very conservative nature that a lot of other cities have deliberately pushed back on over the years and have gone out of their way to ensure don't affect their institutions as much. Hell I think even Tulsa does a better job having people like George Kaiser to get help from. Philbrook has had much better content over the years than OKCMOA, noticeably so. When it comes to art and trying to expose people to things that create discourse and advancing tastes, it really starts to show who pays the bills.

It's a small thing but the ownership of Love's and Mardels (also Hobby Lobby) are vastly different. I drive Denver to OKC and frequently stop at Love's stores and have not seen anything overtly religious there. There may be something but they don't wear it on their sleeve like the Green family of Mardels and HL. In fact, Love's states on their web site they don't give to religious causes though they are a charitable company.

Try Texas. Or Indiana. Colorado Springs is home of Focus onThe Family and other way conservative movements. IÂ’ve heard Louisville called many things, but liberal or progressive isnÂ’t one of them. Tennessee... Kentucky...South Carolina....Louisiana.....Virginia....Arkansas.... Georgia....Mississippi....more liberal, progressive, or politically advanced to Oklahoma? You have to be kidding. Arizona? New Mexico? Kansas?

Ha, well I'm guessing you actually haven't spent much time in Louisville, which actually is very progressive, and has a more diverse economy (I swear for the thousandth time I'm mostly talking about a job market)

You need to learn the difference between cities and states evidently, I'm speaking about a City, and yes most of the states you are listing have cities that are more progressive and have a more diverse economy than Oklahoma City, save Arkansas (although I'd argue Bentonville has more design jobs than all of OKC and a better art museum but I'm splitting hairs there) but Tennessee DEFINITELY has more progressive cities in it, as do Virginia (underline that one like 3 times), Kentucky, South Carolina, Arizona, Georgia (I mean man, a huge amount of the film and television we consume as a nation is produced in Georgia) and no Kansas, Arkansas, Mississippi, and New Mexico are quite a bit behind our urban centers, but also, all of those states don't have cities the size of OKC and also have a much lower state GDP. Fine, think it's great and that "we're done" "it's better now" "we fixed it", all I'm saying is that high paid younger white collar professionals are going to choose Louisville (I mean really have you actually been to Louisville) over us for a little while longer until we can get our labor market a bit more diversified, trust me, I know this, because I actually do desperately want to stay here and will be forced out.

It's a small thing but the ownership of Love's and Mardels (also Hobby Lobby) are vastly different. I drive Denver to OKC and frequently stop at Love's stores and have not seen anything overtly religious there. There may be something but they don't wear it on their sleeve like the Green family of Mardels and HL. In fact, Love's states on their web site they don't give to religious causes though they are a charitable company.

Thanks for that, truly, I didn't know they had made that much of a stand on the issue and I respect that.

Ha, well I'm guessing you actually haven't spent much time in Louisville, which actually is very progressive, and has a more diverse economy (I swear for the thousandth time I'm mostly talking about a job market)

You need to learn the difference between cities and states evidently, I'm speaking about a City, and yes most of the states you are listing have cities that are more progressive and have a more diverse economy than Oklahoma City, save Arkansas (although I'd argue Bentonville has more design jobs than all of OKC and a better art museum but I'm splitting hairs there) but Tennessee DEFINITELY has more progressive cities in it, as do Virginia (underline that one like 3 times), Kentucky, South Carolina, Arizona, Georgia (I mean man, a huge amount of the film and television we consume as a nation is produced in Georgia) and no Kansas, Arkansas, Mississippi, and New Mexico are quite a bit behind our urban centers, but also, all of those states don't have cities the size of OKC and also have a much lower state GDP. Fine, think it's great and that "we're done" "it's better now" "we fixed it", all I'm saying is that high paid younger white collar professionals are going to choose Louisville (I mean really have you actually been to Louisville) over us for a little while longer until we can get our labor market a bit more diversified, trust me, I know this, because I actually do desperately want to stay here and will be forced out.

Yes, I've personally done business in all those states and cities. I'm not looking through a one career/industry perspective. OKC has been remarkably recession proof BECAUSE of more economic diversity. You can find progressive niches in darned near ANY city (except Jackson, MS :) ), but that doesn't make them progressive.

This thread is going all over the place to prove how backward OKC is. Are we Portland? NO!. Are we Birmingham... also hard NO!

Yes, I've personally done business in all those states and cities. I'm not looking through a one career/industry perspective. OKC has been remarkably recession proof BECAUSE of more economic diversity. You can find progressive niches in darned near ANY city (except Jackson, MS :) ), but that doesn't make them progressive.

This thread is going all over the place to prove how backward OKC is. Are we Portland? NO!. Are we Birmingham... also hard NO!

Again, I don't think any of us are saying it's backwards, just that it doesn't represent a lot of the areas of the economy that are the most rapidly growing. I like living here, but I can't apply for a range of jobs here. And actually no, first of all we are not recession proof in any way, and also what makes us feel recession proof is our low cost of living and low wages (really the fact we're proud that people make less money here blows my mind) and our lack of economic diversity. Lets be real, when the price of oil goes down, so does everything else here, when it goes up, so do the building projects. Luckily it's cheap enough here that all the land men can go get jobs doing something lower paying and not lose their house. We have a decent number of larger employers but they are as they have always been, Energy, Government, Aerospace, Medical, and handful of retailers, banks and services. Most of the more productive companies that don't fall neatly in to those categories service one of them, and most likely the Energy sector.

Anyway, I'm not trying to say Oklahoma Sucks other places rule, I'm just saying a lot of the graduates coming out of major Universities and a lot of the growth sectors in the national economy are not super well represented here and we should be taking that seriously as opposed to trying to pretend like we have everything we need. I know this both as a person who looks for jobs here, as a person that has grown up here and watched most of my friends have to leave to find good work, and as a person that works for a company trying to hire tech professionals here and has a VERY hard time finding people with the appropriate skills (to the extent that most of our talent has to work remotely from other places)

And no, thank god we are not Birmingham haha, or Little Rock which I can't stand, and honestly, I vastly prefer our day to day life here to Dallas. I just think we could get better if we're aiming at the right targets.

then stay in and get involved in Oklahoma City. That is the best solution.

As was mentioned, OKC has the very unique opportunity for folks to be in a 'start-up' kind of city that already has momentum. We just need it to take the next step(s).

BChris, OKC has its first openly gay councilor whose district includes 39th and I've read/heard the mayor has been trying to get the local organizations to come up with what they want as the master plan for the district. As for the disfunction I read it was not the fault of the city but instead the group that formerly used to run the OKC Pride events; they had some sort of scandal that lowered their credibility of representing the district. New organization(s) are active and with the changes in government there should be momentum seen in other districts as long as the plan can be developed.

Perhaps this is were you could make a huge difference in guiding OKC to be a better city for all citizens. What is it about OKC that you want to see in the gayborhood or that's lacking that could be easy low-hanging fruit to accomplish? Take it to the new leaders and see it happen. Now is probably the best time to make a difference in that you have leadership and government in place to LISTEN and ACT.

I don't see nor imagine any fundamentalist Christians coming to 39th or any Gay events in the city and I'd argue that a move to Dallas will also keep a young gay person in their core city rather than the entire metro embracing them. ...

OKC mentioned multiple times

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/02/millennials-are-pouring-into-these-smaller-cities-and-buying-homes.html

And I'm not saying this to be rude at all, but sometimes to achieve one's goals, people sometimes have to move. I moved out of OKC when there were no bank and financial jobs to be had after Penn Square Bank and the oil bust. I found one decent job with Sooner Federal but was "let go" because I questioned their actions to merge with a bank from California - because OK law didn't allow out of state ownership. Moving may not be what you really want but if you have goals and dreams, sometimes you have to.

This isn't rude. It's pretty much exactly what we're saying.

OKC mentioned multiple times

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/02/millennials-are-pouring-into-these-smaller-cities-and-buying-homes.html

A snippet:

In the majority of the top 10 millennial markets, the unemployment rate is lower than the national average, and home prices are generally lower. Based on average income, millennials in these markets can afford to buy 1 out of 4 homes listed for sale. In Oklahoma City, they can afford 30%. By comparison, millennials can afford just 10% of the homes in Dallas, 13% in Boston and barely 2% in San Diego.

While a large share of millennials initially move into major metropolitan markets, like New York City, San Francisco and Boston, they don’t tend to stay and buy homes – putting down roots for the long term.

“The data show that they leave,” said Nadia Evangelou, author of the NAR study. “They cannot afford it, so they probably leave for that reason.”

——

Thats the other point, in the larger metro areas home or condo ownership is so pricey no one can buy and thus you have high turnover of people. OKC is more stable so you can get to know neighbors better/longer. Eventually high turnover breeds high crime

This is a pretty awful market to look for real design or tech jobs in, even Omaha is better, then when you get to the level of KC or Minneapolis it gets like worlds better, and then of course LA/SF/NYC are on a whole other planet.

Speaking of Kansas City, in my opinion that place is VERY underrated and is a perfect example of a city that's significantly ahead of OKC but really isn't that much more expensive. It's also still small enough that it doesn't have the traffic issues that the major Texas cities do.

Seems like if you are in certain industries there is a fairly good market for design work .... aerospace, Hvac, oilfield equipment and tooling .... Heck, Boeing moved practically all their engineering from SoCal and Wichita here over past few years. Battelle Institute has a large contingent here. Johnson Controls unitary group is based here with many other HVAC companies here also. And I know others doing engineering design work from OKC for lots of clients elsewhere.

So, depending on what you are calling “design” work, there is work here. We are now at 3% unemployment. Perhaps again we are talking about niched interests lacking. We don’t design cars here, or coffee makers, or......

Speaking of Kansas City, in my opinion that place is VERY underrated and is a perfect example of a city that's significantly ahead of OKC but really isn't that much more expensive. It's also still small enough that it doesn't have the traffic issues that the major Texas cities do.

What makes Kansas City so much better? They also have about 650,000 more people. I don't think they are much more ahead, given their size. Just my opinion.

A snippet:

In the majority of the top 10 millennial markets, the unemployment rate is lower than the national average, and home prices are generally lower. Based on average income, millennials in these markets can afford to buy 1 out of 4 homes listed for sale. In Oklahoma City, they can afford 30%. By comparison, millennials can afford just 10% of the homes in Dallas, 13% in Boston and barely 2% in San Diego.

While a large share of millennials initially move into major metropolitan markets, like New York City, San Francisco and Boston, they don’t tend to stay and buy homes – putting down roots for the long term.

“The data show that they leave,” said Nadia Evangelou, author of the NAR study. “They cannot afford it, so they probably leave for that reason.”

——

Thats the other point, in the larger metro areas home or condo ownership is so pricey no one can buy and thus you have high turnover of people. OKC is more stable so you can get to know neighbors better/longer. Eventually high turnover breeds high crime

Real Estate 101: the higher the home value the higher the crime. Everyone knows that...

What makes Kansas City so much better? They also have about 650,000 more people. I don't think they are much more ahead, given their size. Just my opinion.

Have you been there recently? Their downtown is far more urban and historic with character. OKC will never be able to match it in the post-urban renewal era because so much was demolished (Denver is a better urban model for OKC). I really liked the culture and found it less cliquish than here. I prefer Midwestern culture to Southern culture. The metro as a whole is far more aesthetically pleasing, with hills, trees, greenery, and much better maintained sidewalks and city streets. I greatly prefer the climate to OKC's. Yes, winters are colder but KC gets much less of the kind of weather I hate eg. ice storms and tornadoes. And before somebody tries to correct me, yes KC does get that kind of weather but it’s less frequent than here.

EBAH can probably comment on the high culture since he/she is a lot more familiar with that than I am.

OKC isn't and never will be the best fit for everyone. There isn't anything wrong with liking somewhere else better.

BChris, OKC has its first openly gay councilor whose district includes 39th and I've read/heard the mayor has been trying to get the local organizations to come up with what they want as the master plan for the district. As for the disfunction I read it was not the fault of the city but instead the group that formerly used to run the OKC Pride events; they had some sort of scandal that lowered their credibility of representing the district. New organization(s) are active and with the changes in government there should be momentum seen in other districts as long as the plan can be developed.

Perhaps this is were you could make a huge difference in guiding OKC to be a better city for all citizens. What is it about OKC that you want to see in the gayborhood or that's lacking that could be easy low-hanging fruit to accomplish? Take it to the new leaders and see it happen. Now is probably the best time to make a difference in that you have leadership and government in place to LISTEN and ACT.


I would fully agree with this if this were the only reason I was considering moving. However, my reasons are many.

In regards to the gayborhood, I think a new streetscape would be a great start. Interest in 39th needs to be revived. This would probably be very controversial but I'd like to see ornamental streetlights and public art/murals in the area. There needs to be more going on to keep the community in OKC on the weekends instead of so many people going to Dallas. It would be nice to see LGBT-oriented businesses there that aren't bars. There used to be some but most of them are gone now. It would be nice to see Angles renovated, turned into a modern dance club, and reopened. There's so much potential up there but as it stands now, its about where Bricktown was in the early '90s.

You are right though. I think the future of OKC is currently brighter than ever. If there was ever a time where these kind of changes were most likely to come to fruition, it's now.

What makes Kansas City so much better? They also have about 650,000 more people. I don't think they are much more ahead, given their size. Just my opinion.

I moved to KC about a year ago from Denver, and I would say KC feels like a small, big city, while OKC feels like a big, small city. That is completely understandable for a metro that is roughly 50% larger.

I think it is natural to compare your home city to another city that is maybe another half to full-tier higher and complain about what your city is missing. OKC -> KC, KC -> Denver, Denver -> Seattle, Seattle -> San Fran, etc.