Why do you need to be in a metro area of 2 million plus? Work related? I've sort of given though to moving to the DFW Metro area. It's the only metro area I could move to in Texas because of a hobby I have. However, I can't justify it because of the insane traffic issues and the cost of housing down there compared to Oklahoma City.

Well I feel like I really want to get out of OKC for several reasons, many of them personal. If I'm going to leave here, I'm going to be somewhat picky about where I end up. I personally find the 2 million MSA size to be the sweet spot when it comes to having the lifestyle/culture/amenities I really want.


Before people leave, I think they need to put things into perspective. If things are going good for you, is it necessary to leave?

This is a question I ask myself daily. My life really isn't that bad in OKC. It's just that I have had this dream since I was in college of getting a few years work experience somewhere smaller and then moving to a big city. I did...I moved to Charlotte in 2009 and was in love with it, but due to the economy and pressure from family I ended up back here and have been somewhat bitter about it for years. With the economy not so bad right now and the fact that I'm not getting any younger, I"m thinking this might be the time to give it another go. Though I'm older now I'm still single and don't have anything tying me down here other than my job.

But if I'm going to do this, I need to do it soon or otherwise I just need to accept that I'm going to settle in OKC and buy a house here.

The traffic in the D-FW area is a major drawback to relocation to that area. They can't keep up with the infrastructure demand. The traffic on the expressways (on a nice day) might permit you to average 25-30 mph once you enter the major metro areas from 635/820. It's a great area; however good luck getting to those places you need to visit.

San Antonio-Austin unbelievable growth, it won't take long to duplicate D-FW & Houston. Texas has 3 of the top 10 major metropolitan areas in the country.

As the saying goes, the grass isn't greener on the other side. I've told this story before, but I moved here from northeast Ohio in 2013. I wanted to get away from the stagnant growth, the cold winters, and to make it easier to storm chase. Plus, I've always had a fondness for Oklahoma. Yeah, we have our issues, but I'll take this over Ohio any day of the week. I did give DFW some thought, but the desire for Oklahoma far outweighed Texas and mostly due to traffic issues. It's not really living if you're spending a lot of your time in your car just for your commute to work, the store, or wherever. And it's not going to get any better. Transit can only help so much. People want to drive. I like to think that we have a governor now who sees the potential in Oklahoma (as I do) and is wanting to unlock that potential. Slowly but surely it seems things are getting better in the state. BChris, if you don't mind me asking, what do you do for a living? I work in the mechanic field, so I don't make a LOT of money. I earn a middle class living though. I bought my house for 91,500 last year. I didn't want an expensive mortgage payment. I'm paying less than 700 a month. If I were to move to the Dallas area I would more or less be forced to paying a lot more for a house payment but still earning pretty much the equivalent.

As the saying goes, the grass isn't greener on the other side. I've told this story before, but I moved here from northeast Ohio in 2013. I wanted to get away from the stagnant growth, the cold winters, and to make it easier to storm chase. Plus, I've always had a fondness for Oklahoma. Yeah, we have our issues, but I'll take this over Ohio any day of the week. I did give DFW some thought, but the desire for Oklahoma far outweighed Texas and mostly due to traffic issues. It's not really living if you're spending a lot of your time in your car just for your commute to work, the store, or wherever. And it's not going to get any better. Transit can only help so much. People want to drive. I like to think that we have a governor now who sees the potential in Oklahoma (as I do) and is wanting to unlock that potential. Slowly but surely it seems things are getting better in the state.

This sounds pretty much like my ex's story. He is a storm chaser and moved to OKC for that reason. He loves it here. He also considered DFW and decided against it for the same reasons (traffic) and also because OKC is typically closer to the action. For me personally, I could do without the severe weather.

The way I see traffic is its just one of those negatives that comes with living in a major city. It's definitely one of the negatives of DFW or any big city for that matter. If OKC continues to grow its eventually going to have more traffic problems than it does now. Especially if the city doesn't start modernizing its infrastructure yesterday.

And I totally agree, things have become much better in this state recently than they were even just a few years ago. That's why I've considered just buying a house and putting down roots here, but deep down I still feel like I would prefer to move.



BChris, if you don't mind me asking, what do you do for a living? I work in the mechanic field, so I don't make a LOT of money. I earn a middle class living though. I bought my house for 91,500 last year. I didn't want an expensive mortgage payment. I'm paying less than 700 a month. If I were to move to the Dallas area I would more or less be forced to paying a lot more for a house payment but still earning pretty much the equivalent.

I do tech support, so I should be able to find a job pretty much anywhere, or at least anywhere that I'm considering.

This sounds pretty much like my ex's story. He is a storm chaser and moved to OKC for that reason. He loves it here. He also considered DFW and decided against it for the same reasons (traffic) and also because OKC is typically closer to the action. For me personally, I could do without the severe weather.

The way I see traffic is its just one of those negatives that comes with living in a major city. It's definitely one of the negatives of DFW or any big city for that matter. If OKC continues to grow its eventually going to have more traffic problems than it does now. Especially if the city doesn't start modernizing its infrastructure yesterday.

And I totally agree, things have become much better in this state recently than they were even just a few years ago. That's why I've considered just buying a house and putting down roots here, but deep down I still feel like I would prefer to move.



I do tech support, so I should be able to find a job pretty much anywhere, or at least anywhere that I'm considering.

You and I sound pretty similar. Unlike you, I am born and raised from OKC. I fortunately was a very well traveled kid and young adult, so I never really thought about leaving because well, I could always travel. Then I met my wife, who is from a gorgeous town in Long Island. She grew up a train ride from Manhattan, a 15 minute drive from the beach, and just surrounded by so much that it really made my head spin the first few times. Some people hate that kind of hustle and stay away from big cities, but I personally find that level of energy and opportunity intoxicating. There is obviously a reason that millions of people put up with that kind of COL and traffic.

Like you, it's just hard to explain to anyone who is settled here. I've resolved that unless I find an equally fulfilling opportunity here within my moving timeline, leaving OKC is just an itch that must be scratched for me, regardless of whether I can get anyone else's blessing. It feels like it might be that way for you as well.

The traffic in the D-FW area is a major drawback to relocation to that area. They can't keep up with the infrastructure demand. The traffic on the expressways (on a nice day) might permit you to average 25-30 mph once you enter the major metro areas from 635/820. It's a great area; however good luck getting to those places you need to visit.

San Antonio-Austin unbelievable growth, it won't take long to duplicate D-FW & Houston. Texas has 3 of the top 10 major metropolitan areas in the country.
And they are so overated IMO. I just don't see the draw to Texas.

You and I sound pretty similar. Unlike you, I am born and raised from OKC. I fortunately was a very well traveled kid and young adult, so I never really thought about leaving because well, I could always travel. Then I met my wife, who is from a gorgeous town in Long Island. She grew up a train ride from Manhattan, a 15 minute drive from the beach, and just surrounded by so much that it really made my head spin the first few times.

While I wasn't technically born and raised in OKC, I've spent more of my life here than anywhere else. This is pretty much as close to a "hometown" that I have. What I find when traveling to other major cities, is that instead of coming back with an itch scratched, I come back with a much deeper itch to move.

Another thing that OKC doesn't have and never will is quick and easy access to natural/outdoor amenities and scenery. DFW also has this negative, but the other big Texas cities do not.

I'd like to visit NYC myself soon. I've never been there and its a bucket list item for me. I might take a trip up there this summer, I'm not sure yet. The crazy part of me has had the thought of packing everything up, selling my car, and just moving there. I'm also going to visit DC and am planning on doing a Southwest trip to get a feel for some cities in that part of the country.



Some people hate that kind of hustle and stay away from big cities, but I personally find that level of energy and opportunity intoxicating. There is obviously a reason that millions of people put up with that kind of COL and traffic.


This is me 100%. The level of energy and opportunity in big cities is exhilarating. I'm definitely taking COL into account but things like traffic and general crowdedness aren't issues to me. Maybe I'll feel different after living in a big city for a while but to me, I think I can deal with them. They are just facts of life when it comes to big city living. There's no perfect place and everywhere you live is going to have trade offs.



Like you, it's just hard to explain to anyone who is settled here. I've resolved that unless I find an equally fulfilling opportunity here within my moving timeline, leaving OKC is just an itch that must be scratched for me, regardless of whether I can get anyone else's blessing. It feels like it might be that way for you as well.

Yeah, it's becoming more and more that way for me. I might be up for a promotion at work this summer and if that pans out, I might stay here another year. However, I'm getting to the point where I'm going to make this happen one way or another.

Another thing that OKC doesn't have and never will is quick and easy access to natural/outdoor amenities and scenery.

Ok, I've got to jump in here.. what?

Now, I agree OKC doesn't have quick access to CERTAIN natural/outdoor amenities and scenery. But to say it doesn't have nor ever will seems.. off? What is it that you're looking for along the lines (mountains, the ocean?)

Now, I agree OKC doesn't have quick access to CERTAIN natural/outdoor amenities and scenery. But to say it doesn't have nor ever will seems.. off? What is it that you're looking for along the lines (mountains, the ocean?)

That's it. Mountains and/or the ocean. You do have the Ozarks in eastern Oklahoma and the Wichitas in Southwestern Oklahoma, but nothing near OKC.

OKC does have the OK river area as well as Lake Hefner so it's not like its completely devoid of outdoor recreation. I was thinking more in terms of natural amenities as opposed to man-made.

While I wasn't technically born and raised in OKC, I've spent more of my life here than anywhere else. This is pretty much as close to a "hometown" that I have. What I find when traveling to other major cities, is that instead of coming back with an itch scratched, I come back with a much deeper itch to move.

Another thing that OKC doesn't have and never will is quick and easy access to natural/outdoor amenities and scenery. DFW also has this negative, but the other big Texas cities do not.

I'd like to visit NYC myself soon. I've never been there and its a bucket list item for me. I might take a trip up there this summer, I'm not sure yet. The crazy part of me has had the thought of packing everything up, selling my car, and just moving there. I'm also going to visit DC and am planning on doing a Southwest trip to get a feel for some cities in that part of the country.



This is me 100%. The level of energy and opportunity in big cities is exhilarating. I'm definitely taking COL into account but things like traffic and general crowdedness aren't issues to me. Maybe I'll feel different after living in a big city for a while but to me, I think I can deal with them. They are just facts of life when it comes to big city living. There's no perfect place and everywhere you live is going to have trade offs.



Yeah, it's becoming more and more that way for me. I might be up for a promotion at work this summer and if that pans out, I might stay here another year. However, I'm getting to the point where I'm going to make this happen one way or another.

I think you will find a huge divide between visiting and living (in these bigger cities). Wait til you pay the big city taxes. And find that if you own a car everything about it is taxed so much higher. Higher registration fees. Higher repair. Tire disposal fees. Gas tax. And on and on. Most of the larger cities are struggling with homeless and drugs and crime. Needles and poop on sidewalks. Home or Condo ownership taxes are really going up too.

I’m not saying its awful but there are so many factors you rarely see when just visiting. At a minimum a person should consider renting a year to truly learn all those things.

That's it. Mountains and/or the ocean. You do have the Ozarks in eastern Oklahoma and the Wichitas in Southwestern Oklahoma, but nothing near OKC.

OKC does have the OK river area as well as Lake Hefner so it's not like its completely devoid of outdoor recreation. I was thinking more in terms of natural amenities as opposed to man-made.

Any mountains you will have to drive if moving to a bigger city. So is it really that much closer in time? And all oceanfront is overpriced. If buying close but not on beach you have to find a public beach which most are overcrowded with all the rest of non oceanfront visitors.

I’ve always felt OKC was rightsized where its not expensive living but has enough amenities. And can do weekend trips to find about anything yet not have to pay to live there. Except ocean. But most people who live close to ocean overpay and don’t go as much as one might think. Yet have to fight crowds to do so.

Good luck if you decide to move. Myself, I like it here. And within 25 years we’ll be at 2m pop is my guess

That's it. Mountains and/or the ocean. You do have the Ozarks in eastern Oklahoma and the Wichitas in Southwestern Oklahoma, but nothing near OKC.

OKC does have the OK river area as well as Lake Hefner so it's not like its completely devoid of outdoor recreation. I was thinking more in terms of natural amenities as opposed to man-made.

I don't really know you, but I don't think you'll be well served by moving somewhere for the beach or for mountains. Obviously I could be wrong, but I doubt it. I don't think you're a competitive skier or a surfer or anything like that (you wouldn't be living in Oklahoma if you were). Now if that's what you want to do, then yeah you need to move to a place that can accommodate that dream. You just can't live that kind of lifestyle in a place with no mountains and no ocean.

But from your post, you talk about the Ozarks and the Wichita Mountains like they're really far away. You can be in the Wichita Mountains in an hour and a half, or faster if you drive like PluPan. In a lot of big cities it'll take you that long to negotiate traffic and get to the scenic areas nearby. Not always, of course, and if you can pay the money to live in those scenic parts of town it's a lot more convenient. But that's going to increase your cost of living by a lot, because without fail that's where the rich people live. Most people who live in Los Angeles don't spend much time at all on the beach. Most people in Denver don't go skiing on the weekends. Unless you have a mega buttload of money, you aren't going to be able to live in a city of 2 million people, then walk outside your front door and see nature's wondrous beauty.

Now maybe you'll kick yourself if you don't just get outta OKC and see what the world is like. I did that in my early 20s and I came back, so I understand that need. If that's what you've gotta do, it's what you've gotta do. But I don't think moving elsewhere will give you more access to nature.

If natural beauty was all there is to it, Vancouver, BC would be the most populated city in the world. LOL

If natural beauty was all there is to it, Vancouver, BC would be the most populated city in the world. LOL

True. What an amazingly awesome place to visit. Loved it there. One neat tidbit, Vancouver metro has the biggest Chinese population outside of China. At least it used too.

I don't really know you, but I don't think you'll be well served by moving somewhere for the beach or for mountains. Obviously I could be wrong, but I doubt it. I don't think you're a competitive skier or a surfer or anything like that (you wouldn't be living in Oklahoma if you were). Now if that's what you want to do, then yeah you need to move to a place that can accommodate that dream. You just can't live that kind of lifestyle in a place with no mountains and no ocean.

But from your post, you talk about the Ozarks and the Wichita Mountains like they're really far away. You can be in the Wichita Mountains in an hour and a half, or faster if you drive like PluPan. In a lot of big cities it'll take you that long to negotiate traffic and get to the scenic areas nearby. Not always, of course, and if you can pay the money to live in those scenic parts of town it's a lot more convenient. But that's going to increase your cost of living by a lot, because without fail that's where the rich people live. Most people who live in Los Angeles don't spend much time at all on the beach. Most people in Denver don't go skiing on the weekends. Unless you have a mega buttload of money, you aren't going to be able to live in a city of 2 million people, then walk outside your front door and see nature's wondrous beauty.


I think different people have different priorities when it comes to deciding what place is best for them and what's important to them. I think this answer is going to be a little bit different for everyone. Whether its family, friends, COL, climate, scenery, amenities, culture, politics, walkability, public transit, traffic, etc everyone is going to weigh the importance of those a little differently. I really don't want to get into specifics of what I don't like about OKC as it would just start arguments and there would be no point, but in my almost eight years back here as an adult I can say with absolute certainty that it isn't the best fit for me.

I definitely understand that big cities do have their drawbacks, traffic and higher COL being among them, but millions of people live in them and make it work.



Now maybe you'll kick yourself if you don't just get outta OKC and see what the world is like. I did that in my early 20s and I came back, so I understand that need. If that's what you've gotta do, it's what you've gotta do.

Yeah, this is definitely one of the things driving my desire to move. I want to be able to prove to myself I can do it. I know that if I don't, I'll spend the rest of my life wondering "what if."

Well I feel like I really want to get out of OKC for several reasons, many of them personal. If I'm going to leave here, I'm going to be somewhat picky about where I end up. I personally find the 2 million MSA size to be the sweet spot when it comes to having the lifestyle/culture/amenities I really want.



This is a question I ask myself daily. My life really isn't that bad in OKC. It's just that I have had this dream since I was in college of getting a few years work experience somewhere smaller and then moving to a big city. I did...I moved to Charlotte in 2009 and was in love with it, but due to the economy and pressure from family I ended up back here and have been somewhat bitter about it for years. With the economy not so bad right now and the fact that I'm not getting any younger, I"m thinking this might be the time to give it another go. Though I'm older now I'm still single and don't have anything tying me down here other than my job.

But if I'm going to do this, I need to do it soon or otherwise I just need to accept that I'm going to settle in OKC and buy a house here.

EVERYONE should live in and experience more than one place before deciding if you want to go home again. That's much of why l keep saying if you aren't happy in OKC, go somewhere you can be. Life is too short to just sit around and b**szche about everything in OKC.

I briefly touched down last year back in OKC and had to leave immediately as I opened the door to my apartment. I quietly churned through last year, finished my lease, and went back to colorado and bought a house in Colorado Springs.

I’ve moved around a LOT the past 5 years. Happy to drop the anchor now. For some reason or another, OKC always felt like prison to me. It has many amazing qualities, don’t get me wrong. But sometimes all the coolest things to do can’t outweigh the demons. Colorado’s the only place I’ve ever been able to breathe, so I chose to come back. It’s hard to explain to people who are happy in OKC - I truly wish I could have been happy in OKC. It works for some but not for everybody. If it’s not working for you it probably won’t anytime soon, and it’s your decision to make on whether to stay and hope it will change to fit you or get out of dodge.. You only have one life so pick whatever you want.

OKC has low cost of living, laid back life style, up and coming districts filled with bars and restaurants, and plenty of opportunity. However, if it doesn’t have a path for happiness for you then none of the other matter. I moved back to a high cost of living region with terrible traffic, incredibly rude self-centered people, and somewhat increasing crime. But I’m happy here. The weight on my chest is a fraction of what it was in OKC, I can walk outside my front door with a beer and look at Pike’s Peak. I can be in the hills 15 minutes after starting my car, and in complete isolation deep in a national forest within an hour. .

Find the place to make your stand, BChris (and others). Nothing wrong with moving around and finding a place that helps you find happiness within. No place by itself will make you truly happy.. Some places put you on the right path to find it from within, however.

As far as population growth for the foreseeable future, I think OKC is going to be fairly well positioned. I think 2020-2030 will see pretty rapid growth for our city.

Two big problems facing OKC in the last decade were statewide educational funding and our crazy legislature. Obviously those two were related. It seemed like some members of our legislature thought that just because they had an "R" next to their names, they could propose any kind of ridiculous bills and people would vote them into office forever. Well, the most recent election showed that while Oklahoma voters are pretty conservative, there's only so much crazy they'll tolerate before they get angry enough to do something about it. A lot of people lost their seats last year. I think things had to hit rock bottom in a lot of ways before voters got fed up with it enough to take action.

Education funding looks to be pretty solid at the moment, if we can keep it at a respectable level we should start moving up a lot of the rankings, and that will help draw in new businesses. People don't want to move to a state with awful schools.

In addition, we've been getting a lot of positive press over our "medicinal" marijuana. I just got back from a vacation and when people found out I was from Oklahoma, that was the first thing they asked me about. "Is it true you guys legalized pot???" I'm as square as they come, but even I have to admit that it's increased our "cool" factor significantly. Criminal justice reform is also a real improvement for the state. Our budget will probably be in better shape when our prison numbers start going down.

When the new convention center, the park, and the Omni open, we'll start getting a much higher class of conventions. Larger businesses will be visiting, more people will be coming in, and they're generally going to get a positive impression of OKC. This city is ready to audition for bigger and better things. The state is pretty business friendly, and the city will bend over backwards for companies. If OU will start making a serious push to improve/expand their science and engineering programs, that will help as well.

In addition, we've been getting a lot of positive press over our "medicinal" marijuana. I just got back from a vacation and when people found out I was from Oklahoma, that was the first thing they asked me about. "Is it true you guys legalized pot???" I'm as square as they come, but even I have to admit that it's increased our "cool" factor significantly. Criminal justice reform is also a real improvement for the state. Our budget will probably be in better shape when our prison numbers start going down.

I still cannot believe Oklahoma beat Texas to the punch on this. And furthermore, while there's hints of progress down there it seems they are a long ways from legalization. But things can change fast. Prior to 2016, Oklahoma had the second or third strictest anti-MJ laws in the nation.

If OU will start making a serious push to improve/expand their science and engineering programs, that will help as well.
There's no reason OU shouldn't be pouring money into aviation and engineering.

I think different people have different priorities when it comes to deciding what place is best for them and what's important to them. I think this answer is going to be a little bit different for everyone. Whether its family, friends, COL, climate, scenery, amenities, culture, politics, walkability, public transit, traffic, etc everyone is going to weigh the importance of those a little differently. I really don't want to get into specifics of what I don't like about OKC as it would just start arguments and there would be no point, but in my almost eight years back here as an adult I can say with absolute certainty that it isn't the best fit for me.

I definitely understand that big cities do have their drawbacks, traffic and higher COL being among them, but millions of people live in them and make it work.

Yeah, this is definitely one of the things driving my desire to move. I want to be able to prove to myself I can do it. I know that if I don't, I'll spend the rest of my life wondering "what if."


Best of luck; sometimes you have to satisfy that itch.

I think you will find a huge divide between visiting and living (in these bigger cities). Wait til you pay the big city taxes. And find that if you own a car everything about it is taxed so much higher. Higher registration fees. Higher repair. Tire disposal fees. Gas tax. And on and on. Most of the larger cities are struggling with homeless and drugs and crime. Needles and poop on sidewalks. Home or Condo ownership taxes are really going up too.

I’m not saying its awful but there are so many factors you rarely see when just visiting. At a minimum a person should consider renting a year to truly learn all those things.



I'll just leave this here.

Oklahoma City is one of the higher city taxes in the US. What do we have to show for it? A bunch of couches and trash laying all over the place?


https://www.okctalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15275&d=1556651416&thumb=1&stc=1

I'll just leave this here.

Oklahoma City is one of the higher city taxes in the US. What do we have to show for it? A bunch of couches and trash laying all over the place?


https://www.okctalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15275&d=1556651416&thumb=1&stc=1

Of course it's one of the higher sales tax cities. That's the primary funding method for the operation of the city. Other cities have property taxes to rely on. Go compare to "rich" school districts in Texas and see what you might have to pay in property taxes. A friend with a condo in Austin has to pay over $30,000 annually in property tax - it's nice but its not a million dollar condo.

I'll just leave this here.

Oklahoma City is one of the higher city taxes in the US. What do we have to show for it? A bunch of couches and trash laying all over the place?


https://www.okctalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15275&d=1556651416&thumb=1&stc=1

You are misleading readers, that shows solely “sales” tax.

We are one of the lesser cost of living large cities around.

Here is Wallet Hub and they rank OK as 45 of 50 states (1 is most tax burden):

One simple ratio known as the “tax burden” helps cut through the confusion. Unlike tax rates, which vary widely based on an individual’s circumstances, tax burden measures the proportion of total personal income that residents pay toward state and local taxes. And it isn’t uniform across the U.S., either.

To determine the residents with the biggest tax burdens, WalletHub compared the 50 states across the three tax types of state tax burdens — property taxes, individual income taxes and sales and excise taxes — as a share of total personal income in the state. Read on for our findings, commentary from a panel of tax experts and a full description of our methodology.

https://wallethub.com/edu/t/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494/

Check out property taxes in other states. We are 49th cheapest property taxed in country. Car reg fees. And many other items.

One thing we do need and Florida does this, is charge an “impact” fee for new houses and apartments. Its a one time fee for new construction to help pay for new demands (schools, roads, fire, police and other infrastructure). Of course they were and have been a high growth state and here it might stagnate growth somewhat. Good idea though.

All the stuff about taxes just ignores the real issues that make a lot of people like me leave, and the reasons I am currently considering leaving.

I am in my late 30's, creative professional, married to another creative professional. We make good money here, own a home, nice cars etc. BUT the labor market SUCKS. Now yes, in terms of amenities the city is getting MUCH better, but is still miles away from actual cultural amenities, no good art museums, no theater to speak of, none that are exciting anyway. Also, yes, the natural scenery is not the best and thats part of the desire to leave as well. But, the labor market is the thing that will eventually force my hand. The tax talk assumes people are moving for "a job", like just any job. The jobs that I WANT aren't here, and won't be. As a creative professional here you can eventually get your self a decent in house or agency gig here, that will top out at a very livable but middle income wage. But to go past that, it just gets pretty dead end unless you want to work in petro or insurance. There are very few employment opportunities that are both exciting and well paying. It's either exciting and you make what a good bartender does while doing work that'd pay a huge amount in major markets, or you're doing incredibly dull work for a company you may not care for for a good amount of money, but not advancing in quality or skills. I'll likely make enough regardless of market to pay the taxes, to pay rent, to eat, to drink, and on and on. But, the longer I Go on living here and traveling frequently the more it starts to feel like, Oklahoma is very cheap, and unfortunately you get what you pay for. I may have a smaller place to live, and have to trade in my sports cars, but like, if I were doing amazing work that I was passionate about, and had all the worlds culture outside my apartment, I probably wouldn't care. I'm probably going to decide in the next 6 months wether I'll bail. But right now it's looking like, yeah why wouldn't I, my job here is good, but where on earth would the next one be ?!?!

One thing we do need and Florida does this, is charge an “impact” fee for new houses and apartments. Its a one time fee for new construction to help pay for new demands (schools, roads, fire, police and other infrastructure). Of course they were and have been a high growth state and here it might stagnate growth somewhat. Good idea though.

We have impact fees: https://www.okc.gov/departments/development-services/development-impact-fees

We have impact fees: https://www.okc.gov/departments/development-services/development-impact-fees

Thats great. Wonder how much it pulled in since 2017? Also kinda funny is we give incentives for business to build yet add this cost in too, so I wonder what the difference is (impact fee vs incentive)? For example OMNI and Costco should have impact fee but we gave them incentive deal. What is the dollar diff?

All the stuff about taxes just ignores the real issues that make a lot of people like me leave, and the reasons I am currently considering leaving.

I am in my late 30's, creative professional, married to another creative professional. We make good money here, own a home, nice cars etc. BUT the labor market SUCKS. Now yes, in terms of amenities the city is getting MUCH better, but is still miles away from actual cultural amenities, no good art museums, no theater to speak of, none that are exciting anyway. Also, yes, the natural scenery is not the best and thats part of the desire to leave as well. But, the labor market is the thing that will eventually force my hand. The tax talk assumes people are moving for "a job", like just any job. The jobs that I WANT aren't here, and won't be. As a creative professional here you can eventually get your self a decent in house or agency gig here, that will top out at a very livable but middle income wage. But to go past that, it just gets pretty dead end unless you want to work in petro or insurance. There are very few employment opportunities that are both exciting and well paying. It's either exciting and you make what a good bartender does while doing work that'd pay a huge amount in major markets, or you're doing incredibly dull work for a company you may not care for for a good amount of money, but not advancing in quality or skills. I'll likely make enough regardless of market to pay the taxes, to pay rent, to eat, to drink, and on and on. But, the longer I Go on living here and traveling frequently the more it starts to feel like, Oklahoma is very cheap, and unfortunately you get what you pay for. I may have a smaller place to live, and have to trade in my sports cars, but like, if I were doing amazing work that I was passionate about, and had all the worlds culture outside my apartment, I probably wouldn't care. I'm probably going to decide in the next 6 months wether I'll bail. But right now it's looking like, yeah why wouldn't I, my job here is good, but where on earth would the next one be ?!?!
I’m just curious as to how many cultural things you engage in here. Many who make this comment don’t even know all that is here and how it compares. For instance, we have excellent Broadway productions with the leading tour of many shows. Lyric is a leading regional theater. OU and OCU has two of the top 5 performance schools in the country. Repertoire Theater here is nationally acclaimed. The Philharmonic is excellent and features many stars each year. Ballet is good...but maybe not excellent. Opera ... not here, but in Tulsa. There are great performances in the fabulous Armstrong Hall in Edmond. Western Heritage Museum (some still call Cowboy Hall) has huge collections of top notch art, including one of the biggest collections of Remingtons anywhere. The OKCMA has a modest but good permanent collection, but features world class exhibits for much of each year. The Fred Jones Museum in Norman has an impressive collection of classic art and some surprising other collections of things like icons, Native American art, etc. The OU library has the second best history of science collection among universities, etc, in the US (Harvard is #1). I’m sure I’m leaving out lots of other things from regattas to rodeos. From line dancing to big band swinging.

And the best part... it is all accessible and affordable. But, most who say there is no culture here have no idea what actually is here and they rarely go to find out it is quite good. But it sounds cultured to say there is no culture here. Lol

Living here you can afford to travel other places to go to their special places. I’ve probably been to more museums in LA, Chicago, Dallas, NYC than most of the actual residents I know who live in those cities. I get the best of their cities and the everyday best of OKC because I have money left over.

Many who make this comment don’t even know all that is here and how it compares.

In my opinion, I think it's more that they compare it to Dallas or other cities that are much larger than OKC. If a person desires to live in a world class city with world class cultural amenities, OKC isn't going to cut it. However, neither would most other cities this size with the exception of legacy cities like New Orleans.

I still cannot believe Oklahoma beat Texas to the punch on this. And furthermore, while there's hints of progress down there it seems they are a long ways from legalization. But things can change fast. Prior to 2016, Oklahoma had the second or third strictest anti-MJ laws in the nation.

No problem for me to believe Oklahoma beat Texas to legalized med. marijuana, since unlike Texas, Oklahoma allows voter initiatives via successful petitions. It also explains why casino gambling is booming in southern Oklahoma but not in Texas. It's harder to believe that the Oklahoma Legislature hasn't gutted or thrown out the medical marijuana program. Polls have indicated that Oklahomans supported legalizing med. marijuana at least as far back as 2014. It would have passed then, since the petition for it had stricter regulations. For the long term, it was probably fortunate that petition did not get enough signatures.

No problem for me to believe Oklahoma beat Texas to legalized med. marijuana, since unlike Texas, Oklahoma allows voter initiatives via successful petitions. It also explains why casino gambling is booming in southern Oklahoma but not in Texas. It's harder to believe that the Oklahoma Legislature hasn't gutted or thrown out the medical marijuana program. Polls have indicated that Oklahomans supported legalizing med. marijuana at least as far back as 2014. It would have passed then, since the petition for it had stricter regulations.

Yeah it's a blessing that Mary Fallin refused to call a special legislative session after SQ 788 passed. If she would have, OK's med marijuana rollout would have probably looked a lot more like Arkansas.

I think you will find a huge divide between visiting and living (in these bigger cities). Wait til you pay the big city taxes. And find that if you own a car everything about it is taxed so much higher. Higher registration fees. Higher repair. Tire disposal fees. Gas tax. And on and on. Most of the larger cities are struggling with homeless and drugs and crime. Needles and poop on sidewalks. Home or Condo ownership taxes are really going up too.

I’m not saying its awful but there are so many factors you rarely see when just visiting. At a minimum a person should consider renting a year to truly learn all those things.

^^THIS.

Grass is not always greener and I’d argue that okc’s man made attractions are or very close to world class. Only if OKC would embrace trees, foliage, sidewalks, lighting, transit and other human elements the way it does man made amenities. It is here where OKC is lacking most compared to other major cities but is such an easy fix I wish the city would just run with it.

I’m just curious as to how many cultural things you engage in here. Many who make this comment don’t even know all that is here and how it compares. For instance, we have excellent Broadway productions with the leading tour of many shows. Lyric is a leading regional theater. OU and OCU has two of the top 5 performance schools in the country. Repertoire Theater here is nationally acclaimed. The Philharmonic is excellent and features many stars each year. Ballet is good...but maybe not excellent. Opera ... not here, but in Tulsa. There are great performances in the fabulous Armstrong Hall in Edmond. Western Heritage Museum (some still call Cowboy Hall) has huge collections of top notch art, including one of the biggest collections of Remingtons anywhere. The OKCMA has a modest but good permanent collection, but features world class exhibits for much of each year. The Fred Jones Museum in Norman has an impressive collection of classic art and some surprising other collections of things like icons, Native American art, etc. The OU library has the second best history of science collection among universities, etc, in the US (Harvard is #1). I’m sure I’m leaving out lots of other things from regattas to rodeos. From line dancing to big band swinging.

And the best part... it is all accessible and affordable. But, most who say there is no culture here have no idea what actually is here and they rarely go to find out it is quite good. But it sounds cultured to say there is no culture here. Lol

Living here you can afford to travel other places to go to their special places. I’ve probably been to more museums in LA, Chicago, Dallas, NYC than most of the actual residents I know who live in those cities. I get the best of their cities and the everyday best of OKC because I have money left over.

Yeah, I agree with every bit of this, especially the last paragraph. We also have one of the best zoos in the country, a professional sports team, and anything you can't get here you can find in Dallas only a few hours away. How often are you really going to something like that?

As I said earlier it’s hard to explain to someone who is happy in OKC. The best I can describe some of the above comments are “we have food at home and you should like it, why do you want to stop and get fajitas?”

There’s nothing wrong with what’s at home, yes. It’s food I like, also. However I am craving fajitas. As an adult you can make that decision. There’s plenty of things to love about OKC, and many of them I do. I, and others, crave a different flavor. The price for my fajita dinner is higher than the frozen dinner at home, I have to wait in line to sit down, and after sitting down I have to wait to order and receive my food. I may even order a margarita with the meal to enjoy it even further. All those things are more expensive and less efficient than the perfectly good food at home. But is it worth it? It’s up to you to decide.

As I said earlier it’s hard to explain to someone who is happy in OKC. The best I can describe some of the above comments are “we have food at home and you should like it, why do you want to stop and get fajitas?”

There’s nothing wrong with what’s at home, yes. It’s food I like, also. However I am craving fajitas. As an adult you can make that decision. There’s plenty of things to love about OKC, and many of them I do. I, and others, crave a different flavor. The price for my fajita dinner is higher than the frozen dinner at home, I have to wait in line to sit down, and after sitting down I have to wait to order and receive my food. I may even order a margarita with the meal to enjoy it even further. All those things are more expensive and less efficient than the perfectly good food at home. But is it worth it? It’s up to you to decide.

I agree with this 100%.

A few years ago I had a pretty active social circle down in Norman and one of my friends worked in career services at OU. I talked to him about this exact topic and he told me there was a noticeable personality difference between students who wanted to stay in OKC after graduation and those who wanted to move to DFW or some other big city. I believe it's a difference in mindset and values, and by values I'm not necessarily talking about politics or religion. I'm talking about what drives a person and what kind of lifestyle provides contentment. He ended up moving to Houston where he currently lives and loves it. A lot of people who are happy in OKC couldn't imagine living in Houston and dealing with that kind of traffic and humidity on a constant basis. For others like my friend, the benefits that Houston offers is worth dealing with the negatives.

I agree, I personally like OKC, not too big, not too small, seems about my speed. Dallas is a great place to visit, but I couldn't imagine staying here, nor Houston for that matter. Dallas is a different animal, it is the the 4th largest metro area in the nation, and we live only 2.5 hours away. If I need my big city fix, I just go to Dallas for the weekend like most people.

IÂ’m just curious as to how many cultural things you engage in here. Many who make this comment donÂ’t even know all that is here and how it compares. For instance, we have excellent Broadway productions with the leading tour of many shows. Lyric is a leading regional theater. OU and OCU has two of the top 5 performance schools in the country. Repertoire Theater here is nationally acclaimed. The Philharmonic is excellent and features many stars each year. Ballet is good...but maybe not excellent. Opera ... not here, but in Tulsa. There are great performances in the fabulous Armstrong Hall in Edmond. Western Heritage Museum (some still call Cowboy Hall) has huge collections of top notch art, including one of the biggest collections of Remingtons anywhere. The OKCMA has a modest but good permanent collection, but features world class exhibits for much of each year. The Fred Jones Museum in Norman has an impressive collection of classic art and some surprising other collections of things like icons, Native American art, etc. The OU library has the second best history of science collection among universities, etc, in the US (Harvard is #1). IÂ’m sure IÂ’m leaving out lots of other things from regattas to rodeos. From line dancing to big band swinging.

And the best part... it is all accessible and affordable. But, most who say there is no culture here have no idea what actually is here and they rarely go to find out it is quite good. But it sounds cultured to say there is no culture here. Lol

Living here you can afford to travel other places to go to their special places. IÂ’ve probably been to more museums in LA, Chicago, Dallas, NYC than most of the actual residents I know who live in those cities. I get the best of their cities and the everyday best of OKC because I have money left over.


Oh I do all of that, I've been heavily active in the local arts community for years, I produce records here, play music very actively, I'm a member of the OKCMOA, contribute to a lot of art events, attend nearly everything I can get. The thing is, there are museums, there are performances, but none of our major arts organizations do anything challenging at all. The kind of exhibits you get at museums even like Crystal Bridges in Arkansas are vastly better than anything we get at OKC MOA, Fred Jones is a decent museum, if you want to see famous safe older stuff. The broadway shows are good, if you want to see safe older shows, it's all filtered through this kind of bland modern safe aesthetic and none of it. I mean, spend a weekend going to see art in even just Kansas City and it is OBVIOUS how lacking our arts institutions are. There is virtually no real theater to speak of, and certainly none that would deal with controversial modern productions or would even allow nudity. What I mean is, just like the job market, I'm not looking for X Units of "art" or X units of "job" I want good art, good jobs. You'd honestly be hard pressed to find a more active person culturally in this forum than me, being completely honest, and I'm pretty sure the few on here that know me in real life would agree. But, really, the cultural opportunities in some larger markets and even a handful of smaller ones are wildly better, not that I don't appreciate the ones we have, and we do have some great exceptions to this rule.

As far as affordable and accessible, most large city art museums are FREE.

Now the traveling bit is true and I do travel a lot, like a whole lot. Also, the cost of living does give me great advantage when doing so.

So what I'd say is yes, all of this is technically right.

But like I said, it's the labor market that is the problem for me. I love my neighborhood, I love my house, I love my friends here, the bands I'm in, the artists I work wand a lot of the things in the city. I mean, I'd fight to the death to defend Elemental Coffee as one of the best roasting programs in the WORLD. But, the labor market at the higher levels is disappointingly old fashioned and dull. Just look at the PRSA job board, it's pretty dismal. I'm not kidding when I Say like I'd live here comfortably for life, I'd complain about the art and try and make it better, and enjoy that process. But it will be the fact that it is nearly impossible to find engaging work here for myself and my wife that will lead to me inevitably having to leave.

As I said earlier it’s hard to explain to someone who is happy in OKC. The best I can describe some of the above comments are “we have food at home and you should like it, why do you want to stop and get fajitas?”

There’s nothing wrong with what’s at home, yes. It’s food I like, also. However I am craving fajitas. As an adult you can make that decision. There’s plenty of things to love about OKC, and many of them I do. I, and others, crave a different flavor. The price for my fajita dinner is higher than the frozen dinner at home, I have to wait in line to sit down, and after sitting down I have to wait to order and receive my food. I may even order a margarita with the meal to enjoy it even further. All those things are more expensive and less efficient than the perfectly good food at home. But is it worth it? It’s up to you to decide.

dude yes, exactly this.

Yeah, I agree with every bit of this, especially the last paragraph. We also have one of the best zoos in the country, a professional sports team, and anything you can't get here you can find in Dallas only a few hours away. How often are you really going to something like that?

the answer to your question, as often as I possibly can, which is very often

Yeah, I agree with every bit of this, especially the last paragraph. We also have one of the best zoos in the country, a professional sports team, and anything you can't get here you can find in Dallas only a few hours away. How often are you really going to something like that?

and really, this is just a list of stuff made for white families and old people, and as a childless adult who's actually in to art and culture, it's all pretty boring.

and really, this is just a list of stuff made for white families and old people, and as a childless adult who's actually in to art and culture, it's all pretty boring.

OKC has a very good art museum, as well as OU's art and natural history museums. The Civic Center is a very nice performing arts center.

Caveat: I haven't lived in OKC for a long time. Second caveat: I do not have the day to day cultural sophistication of EBAH, clearly. But I read this post and find myself understanding and appreciating a lot of what he/she wrote.

It seems to me that OKC is really at that pivot point when it comes to age and population that cities go through when they move from being small and second or third tier, to really coming into their own as top 25 or top 35 cities. A few quirky places not withstanding, most towns under 750K-1 million don't have that much outstanding high culture, experimental art, more than a handful of good restaurants etc. Most towns over 1.5 million-2 million have them in abundance. It's the dynamic of a certain mass of people coming together, you're going to get all kinds and the bigger you are, the more of all kinds you're going to get. I think OKC is going through this growing process.

30 years ago the city would not have supported the Plaza District, the local options that have opened or the NBA. Our art museum was at the Fairgrounds for God's sake. So we grow and things come into being. The more we grow the more we get. That's not to discount many imbedded things about OKC that are problematic and do hold the city back. But these things come in time. It was once enough to have "an art museum" or "a zoo" or "those two good restaurants where you can eat something other than steak." People expect more now. Which is why people get disappointed about OKC when it's not there yet.

I do think the Job market follows, to some degree, that some dynamic. You can find a "job." You can find a "good job." You can find a better job than exists in Wichita or Waco or Springfield, MO. But the city needs to keep diversifying and keep exploring opportunities for employment in sectors that are not related to traditional oil, gas or professional services. Some, not all, but some of that is a function of population.

OKC has a very good art museum, as well as OU's art and natural history museums. The Civic Center is a very nice performing arts center.

Again, this is a statement made by people who have nothing more than a passing interest in art or theater. It isn't a good art museum and people should know that, like it's a good looking building, but it's NOT a good art museum objectively. The Civic center is a nice facility, and I will give the Phil credit for having a MUCH more interesting program this year. But, if you were really in to classical music or theater you'd realize the lineup of events is very safe, older and pretty boring.

Caveat: I haven't lived in OKC for a long time. Second caveat: I do not have the day to day cultural sophistication of EBAH, clearly. But I read this post and find myself understanding and appreciating a lot of what he/she wrote.

It seems to me that OKC is really at that pivot point when it comes to age and population that cities go through when they move from being small and second or third tier, to really coming into their own as top 25 or top 35 cities. A few quirky places not withstanding, most towns under 750K-1 million don't have that much outstanding high culture, experimental art, more than a handful of good restaurants etc. Most towns over 1.5 million-2 million have them in abundance. It's the dynamic of a certain mass of people coming together, you're going to get all kinds and the bigger you are, the more of all kinds you're going to get. I think OKC is going through this growing process.

30 years ago the city would not have supported the Plaza District, the local options that have opened or the NBA. Our art museum was at the Fairgrounds for God's sake. So we grow and things come into being. The more we grow the more we get. That's not to discount many imbedded things about OKC that are problematic and do hold the city back. But these things come in time. It was once enough to have "an art museum" or "a zoo" or "those two good restaurants where you can eat something other than steak." People expect more now. Which is why people get disappointed about OKC when it's not there yet.

I do think the Job market follows, to some degree, that some dynamic. You can find a "job." You can find a "good job." You can find a better job than exists in Wichita or Waco or Springfield, MO. But the city needs to keep diversifying and keep exploring opportunities for employment in sectors that are not related to traditional oil, gas or professional services. Some, not all, but some of that is a function of population.
I 100% agree with this. And again, I'm willing to put up with the growth period and I'd like to emphasize, I LOVE a lot about this city and live right in the middle of it and soak up everything I can. But I'm a designer and product developer, I recently almost had to move because of it when I was without a job for a few months a couple of years ago. When it came down to it, I could submit hundreds of resumes in LA, hundreds in new york, DOZENS in cities like Chicago, Nashville, Kansas City, DFW etc and like 1 in OKC. There just isn't the diversity of jobs here. The point of all this wasn't to rail on the art museum or any amenity, the point was I love my people here and would be happy to stay, but the job market will force me to leave.

Again, this is a statement made by people who have nothing more than a passing interest in art or theater. It isn't a good art museum and people should know that, like it's a good looking building, but it's NOT a good art museum objectively. The Civic center is a nice facility, and I will give the Phil credit for having a MUCH more interesting program this year. But, if you were really in to classical music or theater you'd realize the lineup of events is very safe, older and pretty boring.

I'll second this (and your other posts), having lived in the Chicago area for 12 years, and the Seattle area for 2 years, as well as visiting NYC, SF, Dallas, etc. I will say that the OKC Ballet choices were better this year than they've been in a while, but they're still just an "all right" company. We've found that the OCCC events are better than a lot of the Civic Center stuff (Rioult modern dance company doing a 20 minute Deep Purple medley is pretty cool), so that helps...

I'll second this (and your other posts), having lived in the Chicago area for 12 years, and the Seattle area for 2 years, as well as visiting NYC, SF, Dallas, etc. I will say that the OKC Ballet choices were better this year than they've been in a while, but they're still just an "all right" company. We've found that the OCCC events are better than a lot of the Civic Center stuff (Rioult modern dance company doing a 20 minute Deep Purple medley is pretty cool), so that helps...

Oh yeah man, thank GOD for University programs. I went to a play a week or two ago, sponsored by OU Linguistics Department that was an avant garde 2 person production (a theater company from Mexico City), 1 act play in Spanish about the history of water management in Mexico City and it was fantastic. I mean there are cool things to do here for sure, I just sometimes wish we had actual institutions willing to push envelopes as opposed to fitting nicely in them.

and really, this is just a list of stuff made for white families and old people, and as a childless adult who's actually in to art and culture, it's all pretty boring.

I can’t let this go by...

WTH do you mean, “...for white families?” “Old people?”
We can’t normalize racism against white people in the name of fighting racism.
It seems somehow okay(?) to say things like this and not get called on it.
What is it about the zoo and the Thunder (mostly black men) that makes these things only for white families? The insertion of race into your comment was uncalled for and I wasn’t going to just let it pass by without comment.

I can’t let this go by...

WTH do you mean, “...for white families?” “Old people?”
We can’t normalize racism against white people in the name of fighting racism.
It seems somehow okay(?) to say things like this and not get called on it.
What is it about the zoo and the Thunder (mostly black men) that makes these things only for white families? The insertion of race into your comment was uncalled for and I wasn’t going to just let it pass by without comment.

There is a reason why NICHE interests are best served in BIG cities. It has nothing to do with the general level of sophistication. It has to do with having to have a sufficient base of people interested in a narrow interest topic who are willing and able to spend the time and money to support it. Of course there will always be more to do in bigger cities....it is just demographics and numbers.

I find it curious that interest and participation in traditional/classic art has been expressed here as racially dictated. Very disappointing. And frankly incorrect. I see plenty of minorities in attendance at the theater, philharmonic, museums.

There are many niches in art and culture active here, just not the quantities of people to support it. If someone enjoys the niches regularly and frequently, then OKC is not for them. But, it is more driven by interests than by race.

I agree, I personally like OKC, not too big, not too small, seems about my speed. Dallas is a great place to visit, but I couldn't imagine staying here, nor Houston for that matter. Dallas is a different animal, it is the the 4th largest metro area in the nation, and we live only 2.5 hours away. If I need my big city fix, I just go to Dallas for the weekend like most people.

Dallas is over rated on this board and with many folks in Ok. It's not that great of a city IMO.

As I said earlier it’s hard to explain to someone who is happy in OKC. The best I can describe some of the above comments are “we have food at home and you should like it, why do you want to stop and get fajitas?”

There’s nothing wrong with what’s at home, yes. It’s food I like, also. However I am craving fajitas. As an adult you can make that decision. There’s plenty of things to love about OKC, and many of them I do. I, and others, crave a different flavor. The price for my fajita dinner is higher than the frozen dinner at home, I have to wait in line to sit down, and after sitting down I have to wait to order and receive my food. I may even order a margarita with the meal to enjoy it even further. All those things are more expensive and less efficient than the perfectly good food at home. But is it worth it? It’s up to you to decide.

I don't think anyone will argue this point with you. My issue is when you (figurative you) have those fajitas at home, go around telling everyone about how awful they are, how they are packaged, the quantity, the ingredients, the seasoning, the number of tortillas you have, the texture, the type, how salty, the sauce, the cost, how hard they are to make, etc. At some point you just have to go out and try some friggin' somewhere else if you don't like what you have at home.

I can’t let this go by...

WTH do you mean, “...for white families?” “Old people?”
We can’t normalize racism against white people in the name of fighting racism.
It seems somehow okay(?) to say things like this and not get called on it.
What is it about the zoo and the Thunder (mostly black men) that makes these things only for white families? The insertion of race into your comment was uncalled for and I wasn’t going to just let it pass by without comment.


I didn't want to bring it up because I knew it would draw this level of overreaction and turn into a HEAVILY political fight. It's honestly infuriating that the political circus has hijacked what should be a really civil discourse.

Sigh, I guess its time to jump off the fence...

The fact is that a straight white male can go to ANY CITY and have the exact same experience and lifestyle if he wants. For most of you it's just " Food? check. Costco? Check. Theater? check. Live Music? check. See it's the exact same but cheaper!"

That is simply not true for those of the vast number of minorities. In Oklahoma, the minority is VERY minor. There are so many great things about this city, but if you aren't 100% drinking the OKC kool-aid, you are basically on the outside. I'm not just talking about racial minority. If you're a creative or entrepreneur, there's basically 1 or 2 seats at the table. That table is usually owned by a white guy.

Just for fun because you mentioned it, the Thunder branding is basically as a-cultural as you could ever imagine. Up until last year, It's basically just been Microsoft Word Art on random colors. It took 11 years to even BEGIN to reference native american culture. The music played in the arenas is nothing but oldies and the Black Eyed Peas. They might get super funky (sarc) with some Drake. Why? Because you don't want to scare/offend the majority of the big ticket holders in the 100's.

EBAH hit it on the head. Oklahoma is safe. If you are otherwise completely fulfilled and just need a cheap place to live, eat and be mildly entertained, then this is great. You will definitely have a fine time. But there are places out there at are worth traffic and taxes. I think it's okay to acknowledge that not everyone fits in here. There's a lot of great things going for this city, but diversity is just not one of them. If you aren't a minority, I don't think you have a right to argue otherwise.

I can’t let this go by...

WTH do you mean, “...for white families?” “Old people?”
We can’t normalize racism against white people in the name of fighting racism.
It seems somehow okay(?) to say things like this and not get called on it.
What is it about the zoo and the Thunder (mostly black men) that makes these things only for white families? The insertion of race into your comment was uncalled for and I wasn’t going to just let it pass by without comment.

They would have been better off just saying "basic" which is probably what they meant.

Which brings me to a point. I think OKC, as it stands now, mostly appeals to those who want a basic, conservative lifestyle while still having some big city amenities available. It's for people who partake in niche activities seldom enough that it isn't an issue for them to drive to Dallas to do it when they need to. With that said, the city is currently undergoing a transition as downtown springs to life. There's starting to be a lot more niche amenities available here, its just not yet on the level of major cities. As another poster said, 30 years ago the art museum was at the fairgrounds, Cattleman's was probably the best "fine dining" option you had here, and there probably wasn't much of a live music scene that wasn't red dirt country. There was no Thunder, Plaza District, or even Bricktown for that matter. Mamasita's was the trendiest bar in town.

OKC is far beyond that today, but as the city progresses, people are naturally going to expect more and more.

I didn't want to bring it up because I knew it would draw this level of overreaction and turn into a HEAVILY political fight. It's honestly infuriating that the political circus has hijacked what should be a really civil discourse.

Sigh, I guess its time to jump off the fence...

The fact is that a straight white male can go to ANY CITY and have the exact same experience and lifestyle if he wants. For most of you it's just " Food? check. Costco? Check. Theater? check. Live Music? check. See it's the exact same but cheaper!"

That is simply not true for those of the vast number of minorities. In Oklahoma, the minority is VERY minor. There are so many great things about this city, but if you aren't 100% drinking the OKC kool-aid, you are basically on the outside. I'm not just talking about racial minority. If you're a creative or entrepreneur, there's basically 1 or 2 seats at the table. That table is usually owned by a white guy.

Just for fun because you mentioned it, the Thunder branding is basically as a-cultural as you could ever imagine. Up until last year, It's basically just been Microsoft Word Art on random colors. It took 11 years to even BEGIN to reference native american culture. The music played in the arenas is nothing but oldies and the Black Eyed Peas. They might get super funky (sarc) with some Drake. Why? Because you don't want to scare/offend the majority of the big ticket holders in the 100's.

EBAH hit it on the head. Oklahoma is safe. If you are otherwise completely fulfilled and just need a cheap place to live, eat and be mildly entertained, then this is great. You will definitely have a fine time. But there are places out there at are worth traffic and taxes. I think it's okay to acknowledge that not everyone fits in here. There's a lot of great things going for this city, but diversity is just not one of them. If you aren't a minority, I don't think you have a right to argue otherwise.

Please. I *point out* the racist comment in this thread of civil discourse and I am the one that took it off the rails? I’m a progressive and am tired of the race hustling. Do blacks and other minorities not eat food? Go to Costco?

The fact is that a straight white male can go to ANY CITY and have the exact same experience and lifestyle if he wants. For most of you it's just " Food? check. Costco? Check. Theater? check. Live Music? check. See it's the exact same but cheaper!"

One other thing I want to point out about OKC is that the LGBT scene is an absolute joke for a city this size. I'm not talking about LGBT-friendliness as much as activities available for gay people to meet other people other than bars or phone apps. The 39th St strip is neglected and depressing and desperately needs some investment to bring it out of the 1980s. It needs to be integrated into the urban fabric of the city like gayborhoods are in just about every other small and major city in 2019. Living here really feels like living in a small town stuck in the past in that respect.

I can’t let this go by...

WTH do you mean, “...for white families?” “Old people?”
We can’t normalize racism against white people in the name of fighting racism.
It seems somehow okay(?) to say things like this and not get called on it.
What is it about the zoo and the Thunder (mostly black men) that makes these things only for white families? The insertion of race into your comment was uncalled for and I wasn’t going to just let it pass by without comment.

HAHA woah, ok, I wasn't being racist at all, I Was saying, I'm not a christian suburbanite with kids, so a lot of these things don't really appeal so much to me. A lot of these amenities look more attractive if you're taking your family out, but I'm that kind of customer and I'm giving you my viewpoint that the kind of art, culture, etc that I'm looking for that IS common in larger markets or more vibrant ones is harder to come by.

I didn't want to bring it up because I knew it would draw this level of overreaction and turn into a HEAVILY political fight. It's honestly infuriating that the political circus has hijacked what should be a really civil discourse.

Sigh, I guess its time to jump off the fence...

The fact is that a straight white male can go to ANY CITY and have the exact same experience and lifestyle if he wants. For most of you it's just " Food? check. Costco? Check. Theater? check. Live Music? check. See it's the exact same but cheaper!"

That is simply not true for those of the vast number of minorities. In Oklahoma, the minority is VERY minor. There are so many great things about this city, but if you aren't 100% drinking the OKC kool-aid, you are basically on the outside. I'm not just talking about racial minority. If you're a creative or entrepreneur, there's basically 1 or 2 seats at the table. That table is usually owned by a white guy.

Just for fun because you mentioned it, the Thunder branding is basically as a-cultural as you could ever imagine. Up until last year, It's basically just been Microsoft Word Art on random colors. It took 11 years to even BEGIN to reference native american culture. The music played in the arenas is nothing but oldies and the Black Eyed Peas. They might get super funky (sarc) with some Drake. Why? Because you don't want to scare/offend the majority of the big ticket holders in the 100's.

EBAH hit it on the head. Oklahoma is safe. If you are otherwise completely fulfilled and just need a cheap place to live, eat and be mildly entertained, then this is great. You will definitely have a fine time. But there are places out there at are worth traffic and taxes. I think it's okay to acknowledge that not everyone fits in here. There's a lot of great things going for this city, but diversity is just not one of them. If you aren't a minority, I don't think you have a right to argue otherwise.

Exactly, sometimes I feel like OKC has a catch 22 problem, like, Good news is, this place is cheap, bad news is, you get what you pay for

Dallas is over rated on this board and with many folks in Ok. It's not that great of a city IMO.

Very much agreed

One other thing I want to point out about OKC is that the LGBT scene is an absolute joke for a city this size. I'm not talking about LGBT-friendliness as much as activities available for gay people to meet other people other than bars or phone apps. The 39th St strip is neglected and depressing and desperately needs some investment to bring it out of the 1980s. It needs to be integrated into the urban fabric of the city like gayborhoods are in just about every other small and major city in 2019. Living here really feels like living in a small town stuck in the past in that respect.

I'm not gay and can't speak for anyone of that group but isn't it like any other ethnic group and is simply a matter of comfort? Dallas is that huge sucking machine that takes about everything around it - seemingly including gay people. I understand issues with conservative religious influence in OK but they most certainly exist in Dallas, Atlanta, New Orleans and Houston. It seems it is an issue of comfort, employment, gay-centered activities and "coolness" that exists in those cities. I don't see/hear of any real gay leaders in the OKC community. In Denver, they are totally involved in the growth of the city - funding of businesses, restaurants and bars, real estate projects, etc. - not to mention our Governor.

I'm not gay and can't speak for anyone of that group but isn't it like any other ethnic group and is simply a matter of comfort? Dallas is that huge sucking machine that takes about everything around it - seemingly including gay people. I understand issues with conservative religious influence in OK but they most certainly exist in Dallas, Atlanta, New Orleans and Houston. It seems it is an issue of comfort, employment, gay-centered activities and "coolness" that exists in those cities. I don't see/hear of any real gay leaders in the OKC community. In Denver, they are totally involved in the growth of the city - funding of businesses, restaurants and bars, real estate projects, etc. - not to mention our Governor.

well good news there is we actually just elected our first openly gay councilman

Cool. Didn't know.