Our particular crazies on 23rd and Lincoln certainly don't help matters, but I think education funding is the only really serious problem we have. Our state reps are no crazier than the ones in Texas, and that state is doing fine.

I agree with this. Fix education and I think the rest will fall into place.

I agree with this. Fix education and I think the rest will fall into place.

If it doesn't get undone through the petition/state question process (not very likely but still possible), Oklahoma will be 2nd in the region for teacher pay (behind Texas) and 28th in the nation. Some of the funding has been restored with the recent tax increase but that's the next step is to restore all funding before the 2009 cuts. With the GPT at 5% and oil in the $65-70 range that will result in a significant increase as most of those revenue forecasts were for oil in the 50's.

What would it take for property taxes to be used for state education funding (I realize the mentality of so many would pretty much make it impossible, but what would the method be?). Is it a constitutional issue?

Yeah, the state legislature is almost always made up of the B Teamers. Every state has nutjobs who propose crazy bills. California just tried to pass a bill making it a crime (punishable by up to 6 months in jail) for a restaurant to give a plastic straw to customers who don't specifically ask for one.

Our particular crazies on 23rd and Lincoln certainly don't help matters, but I think education funding is the only really serious problem we have. Our state reps are no crazier than the ones in Texas, and that state is doing fine.

Good point, but I think it’s important to throw in our infrastructure as well. It’s not fun having to answer to our friends from out of state how awful and dated our roads are in this state.

Yeah, the state legislature is almost always made up of the B Teamers. Every state has nutjobs who propose crazy bills. California just tried to pass a bill making it a crime (punishable by up to 6 months in jail) for a restaurant to give a plastic straw to customers who don't specifically ask for one.

Our particular crazies on 23rd and Lincoln certainly don't help matters, but I think education funding is the only really serious problem we have. Our state reps are no crazier than the ones in Texas, and that state is doing fine.
So to you overcrowded, antiquated prisons are not a serious problem. It's very overblown? But reducing the imprisonment rate to the national average would make many millions available for education. Probably more so than reducing school districts by a significant amount. Anyway, the prison problems need taken care of before federal intervention or a massive prison riot happens. Being no. 1 for imprisonment and near no. 50 for education aren't selling points for attracting good paying business, industry and great people.

Other states are doing somewhat better than Oklahoma, despite occasional lapses in rational governing. Some of them are even like Oklahoma dominated by mainly one or two industries.

Let's try to vote to get rid of the crazies at the state capitol in June and November and make Oklahoma OK again. Remaining less than mediocre isn't OK. Maybe a further drop in the growth rate of the next population estimate for Oklahoma City and other cities will sober up more people to the need to do just that.

So to you overcrowded, antiquated prisons are not a serious problem. It's very overblown? But reducing the imprisonment rate to the national average would make many millions available for education. Probably more so than reducing school districts by a significant amount. Anyway, the prison problems need taken care of before federal intervention or a massive prison riot happens. Being no. 1 for imprisonment and near no. 50 for education aren't selling points for attracting good paying business, industry and great people.

Other states are doing somewhat better than Oklahoma, despite occasional lapses in rational governing. Some of them are even like Oklahoma dominated by mainly one or two industries.

Let's try to vote to get rid of the crazies at the state capitol in June and November and make Oklahoma OK again. Remaining less than mediocre isn't OK. Maybe a further drop in the growth rate of the next population estimate for Oklahoma City and other cities will sober up more people to the need to do just that.

+1

So to you overcrowded, antiquated prisons are not a serious problem. It's very overblown? But reducing the imprisonment rate to the national average would make many millions available for education. Probably more so than reducing school districts by a significant amount. Anyway, the prison problems need taken care of before federal intervention or a massive prison riot happens. Being no. 1 for imprisonment and near no. 50 for education aren't selling points for attracting good paying business, industry and great people.

Other states are doing somewhat better than Oklahoma, despite occasional lapses in rational governing. Some of them are even like Oklahoma dominated by mainly one or two industries.

Let's try to vote to get rid of the crazies at the state capitol in June and November and make Oklahoma OK again. Remaining less than mediocre isn't OK. Maybe a further drop in the growth rate of the next population estimate for Oklahoma City and other cities will sober up more people to the need to do just that.

In fact, according to OK Policy Institute, if we were merely AVERAGE at imprisoning people, it would save tax payers about $200,000,000/year:

https://i.imgur.com/2wXNluA.png

link to full story: https://okpolicy.org/oklahomans-dont-want-pay-costs-keep-incarcerating-many-capitol-update/

In fact, according to OK Policy Institute, if we were merely AVERAGE at imprisoning people, it would save tax payers about $200,000,000/year:

https://i.imgur.com/2wXNluA.png

link to full story: https://okpolicy.org/oklahomans-dont-want-pay-costs-keep-incarcerating-many-capitol-update/

It would be interesting to know how many people are incarcerated for simple marijuana possession and nothing else.

Not to derail this thread further, but those acting as if teacher/education issues are the only things from the Legislature that are hurting the state are ignoring lots of other examples (these just from yesterday alone):

https://twitter.com/CyndiMunson85/status/989606382444990464

https://twitter.com/stevelackmeyer/status/989893990588866560

Employers don't want to relocate to states with poor education systems, nor do they want to locate to states with poor healthcare systems, poor criminal justice, poor treatment of its LGBT population, etc. etc. etc.

Not to derail this thread further, but those acting as if teacher/education issues are the only things from the Legislature that are hurting the state are ignoring lots of other examples (these just from yesterday alone):

https://twitter.com/CyndiMunson85/status/989606382444990464

https://twitter.com/stevelackmeyer/status/989893990588866560

Employers don't want to relocate to states with poor education systems, not do they want to locate to states with poor healthcare systems, poor criminal justice, poor treatment of its LGBT population, etc. etc. etc.

My personal opinion is that all these issues are tied together. Fix education and the rest of it will fall into place. The special interests promoting the anti-LGBT bills are also inherently anti-public education. They want the state's education system to fail so they can promote homeschooling and religious schooling. School vouchers are their solution to everything.

It would be interesting to know how many people are incarcerated for simple marijuana possession and nothing else.

I don't know but a number of people are also imprisoned over hard drugs, such as meth. You may stay out of prison if it's your first possession, if you abide by the conduct agreed to, in order to stay out of prison, including paying a stiff fine. I bet some counties wouldn't be that generous, especially toward minorities.

I heard someone say that 3 people are in prison for life over marijuana. For one person it happened over a joint, but it was his 3rd offense.

The new justice reform bills just signed by the governor have been criticized for not going far enough. More work is needed or a new prison will be needed.

To get closer to topic, some Californians are moving to Oklahoma, unsurprisingly due to the lower cost of living. Maybe Oklahoma could do more to promote itself for this reason. This positive article with video suggests Oklahoma has a lack of image problem, rather than a bad one.
http://fox40.com/2018/04/26/why-more-people-are-leaving-california-than-moving-here/

I have an aunt who just moved from LA to OKC for her retirement years. She sold her house for a Million + there, bought a house for 250k here and was able to retire earlier than planned based off that difference. She's been here for 3-4 months and has already said she wishes she would've made the move earlier.

I have an aunt who just moved from LA to OKC for her retirement years. She sold her house for a Million + there, bought a house for 250k here and was able to retire earlier than planned based off that difference. She's been here for 3-4 months and has already said she wishes she would've made the move earlier.

I know of a family (Cousins/Aunts/Uncles/etc) that did the same. The original CA to OKC transplant came around 2000, then his sister and husband came, their daughter's family etc all in the last 18 months. For most, the cost of living and frustration of transportation in CA's big cities is simply no longer sustainable. Good thing is that one is Phd business owner who has employed people here ever since his move. We just need about 5,000 more of him. That'd be nice.

It would be interesting to know how many people are incarcerated for simple marijuana possession and nothing else.

I know someone (young woman) in prison today for failing a drug test while on probation. She was orig. on probation for MJ. Been in for about 1 1/2 years and they tell her she has over 2000 days to go.

Blows my mind.

I don't know but a number of people are also imprisoned over hard drugs, such as meth. You may stay out of prison if it's your first possession, if you abide by the conduct agreed to, in order to stay out of prison, including paying a stiff fine. I bet some counties wouldn't be that generous, especially toward minorities.

I heard someone say that 3 people are in prison for life over marijuana. For one person it happened over a joint, but it was his 3rd offense.

The new justice reform bills just signed by the governor have been criticized for not going far enough. More work is needed or a new prison will be needed.

If a judge sentenced someone to life over a joint that judge should be sentenced to death IMO.

The signs of a population boom in OKC (2016 estimate) are right around the corner. The Key communities are:

Oklahoma City 638,367 +10.06% change

NORTH of OKC (102,683)

Edmond 91,191 +12.02% change
Guthrie 11,49
Goal: 150,000 needed 47,000

SOUTH of OKC (185,595)

Moore 61,415 +11.50% change
Norman 122,180 +10.15% change
Goal: 250,000 needed 65,000


EAST of OKC (79,255)

Midwest City 57,305 +5.40% change
Del City 21,950 +2.90% change
Goal: 100,000 needed 21,000


WEST (Canadian) of OKC (65,918)

Yukon 26,340 +15.99% change
Mustang 20,792 +19.53% change
El Reno 18,786 +12.16% change
Goal: 100,000 needed 34,000

The combination cities south of OKC are closing in on 250,000; the ones north of OKC 150,000 and those east & west are approaching 100,000 each.

Access to Roads & Expressways: Expansion & upkeep of I-40 E-W bound, I-35 N-S/235 N and I-44 NE-SW. The new Eastern Oklahoma County 21-mile tollway turnpike loop ($300 million) will link Interstates 40 and 44 in eastern Oklahoma County providing an alternative route to Tulsa that will ease congestion on busy Interstate 35. The new turnpike will loop will accelerate growth in the Midwest City east area and the Southwest Kilpatrick extension I-40 and State Highway 152/Airport Road to the west.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/be/Oklahoma_City_Metropolitan_Area_and_Oklahoma_City-Shawnee_CSA.png/375px-Oklahoma_City_Metropolitan_Area_and_Oklahoma_City-Shawnee_CSA.png http://aptselector.com/images/city/map-okc.gif

The East-West corridor cities will be the stimulant for the OKC metro growth in 2030.

Once the park, convention center, and CC hotel are done, OKC should do another video like they did a number of years ago but featuring the newly completed features in downtown, as well as the beginning of Strawberry Fields. Show that the city is progressing and growing and that the blighted areas are rapidly disappearing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GJIHhypBmU

Once the park, convention center, and CC hotel are done, OKC should do another video like they did a number of years ago but featuring the newly completed features in downtown, as well as the beginning of Strawberry Fields. Show that the city is progressing and growing and that the blighted areas are rapidly disappearing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GJIHhypBmU

That Chamber of Commerce video makes me think of this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miXMWJyOdgw

That Chamber of Commerce video makes me think of this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miXMWJyOdgw

I love South Park so much

You may think this is a good thing or bad thing depending on your political and religious sensibilities, but OKC ranks very poorly in the area of LGBT-friendliness per the HRC's municipality equality index scoring system. In fact it currently scores the worst in the country for metro areas above 1 million population. Regardless of your personal feelings about this issue, this is something high profile companies such as Amazon look at when determining where to invest or relocate. Dallas and Fort Worth score 100%. Here is the latest report.

https://www.hrc.org/resources/mei-2017-see-your-citys-score

You may think this is a good thing or bad thing depending on your political and religious sensibilities, but OKC ranks very poorly in the area of LGBT-friendliness per the HRC's municipality equality index scoring system. In fact it currently scores the worst in the country for metro areas above 1 million population. Regardless of your personal feelings about this issue, this is something high profile companies such as Amazon look at when determining where to invest or relocate. Here is the latest report.

https://www.hrc.org/resources/mei-2017-see-your-citys-score

On the other hand, this would be seen very positively by companies like Koch Industries.

You may think this is a good thing or bad thing depending on your political and religious sensibilities, but OKC ranks very poorly in the area of LGBT-friendliness per the HRC's municipality equality index scoring system. In fact it currently scores the worst in the country for metro areas above 1 million population. Regardless of your personal feelings about this issue, this is something high profile companies such as Amazon look at when determining where to invest or relocate. Dallas and Fort Worth score 100%. Here is the latest report.

https://www.hrc.org/resources/mei-2017-see-your-citys-score

Maybe the pro gay lobby has been too busy fighting anti-gay legislation at the state capitol for which they have for the most part been doing a good job.

You may think this is a good thing or bad thing depending on your political and religious sensibilities, but OKC ranks very poorly in the area of LGBT-friendliness per the HRC's municipality equality index scoring system. In fact it currently scores the worst in the country for metro areas above 1 million population. Regardless of your personal feelings about this issue, this is something high profile companies such as Amazon look at when determining where to invest or relocate. Dallas and Fort Worth score 100%. Here is the latest report.

https://www.hrc.org/resources/mei-2017-see-your-citys-score

This is a really informative report. Essentially, you can easily go to your city and say, why can they get this [specific laws or services] done in Birmingham, Alabama, but we can't here? OKC can do much better (what's up with Stillwater?!?). Thanks for sharing.

Maybe the pro gay lobby has been too busy fighting anti-gay legislation at the state capitol for which they have for the most part been doing a good job.

ya, sad to say but I think the low rankings for OKC has more to do with the state of Oklahoma than it does for the city. OKC as a city/community is very LGBT friendly and has been for a long time. Not necessarily and OPEN LGBT city but not worthy of the worst major city ranking either as I can think of others who are worse.

Here's a direct link to OKC's scorecard: https://assets2.hrc.org/files/assets/resources/MEI-2017-OklahomaCity-Oklahoma.pdf

It looks like the way their rankings work is, for specific categories, the city has multiple opportunities to earn points - they get points if the state, county, or city fulfills that category. Since none of the measured categories are implemented at a state or county level for OKC, leaving everything up to the city, our ranking does suffer because of that.

That said, I don't feel that our city is hostile to the LGBT community at all... At least, I've never felt threatened by the City. State law, on the other hand.... Yah, not so much.

July 2017 population estimates
OKC - 643,648 (+11.0% from 2010 Census)
Tulsa - 401,800 (+2.5% from 2010 Census)

https://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/index.ssf/2018/05/new_estimate_for_clevelands_po.html?appSession=64R SY22JH2I76NX1C01T8R1TW0UU4FXU668C29FC162Q1LX63Z73Q K5W2QVG35HO02Z5FSTTI8CR7O69O4BW70D39H4K30BMY0215T6 APB2T802K9EQ08Q6221U50WMF

Meanwhile, quite a few towns outside of Oklahoma City and Tulsa metros had population losses, led by Enid and Lawton, both fairly close to a 1000 each. On the bright side, Durant and Stillwater managed yet another year of population gains with Stillwater still struggling to make it over 50,000. If the losses in the towns continue, it will surely help explain why Oklahoma doesn't get past 4,000,000 in 2020.

Just because some of those towns are experiencing losses doesn't mean the people are moving out of state. Some are probably settling into other parts of the state such as OKC and Lawton. It's strange that Enid would be losing people as it's been growing for years now. Lawton, needs to figure something out to get more growth going on beyond just Ft Sill.

Meanwhile, quite a few towns outside of Oklahoma City and Tulsa metros had population losses, led by Enid and Lawton, both fairly close to a 1000 each. On the bright side, Durant and Stillwater managed yet another year of population gains with Stillwater still struggling to make it over 50,000. If the losses in the towns continue, it will surely help explain why Oklahoma doesn't get past 4,000,000 in 2020.

Long, long term, it will be interesting to see what happens with Durant if the endless North Texas sprawl continues unabated. They are currently about 45-50 minutes north of the newest subdivisions (in between Van Alstyne and Anna).

Just because some of those towns are experiencing losses doesn't mean the people are moving out of state. Some are probably settling into other parts of the state such as OKC and Lawton. It's strange that Enid would be losing people as it's been growing for years now. Lawton, needs to figure something out to get more growth going on beyond just Ft Sill.

Enid hasn't been the same since Continental moved from there to OKC and then the fall in oil prices. If losses keep up, it will fall below where it was in 2010.

They have been moving out of Lawton, too. Lawton went from 94,653 to 93,714. I think for the last two or three years Oklahoma's lowered pop. growth rate made it apparent it couldn't get to 4 million in time for 2020.

From 2016 to 2017 Oklahoma only went from 3,923,561 3,930,864 . The suburbs of OKC and Tulsa along with OKC itself are still adding pop. They are going to have to continue to take up the slack from losses in other towns in coming years to ensure Oklahoma doesn't start losing population. Maybe oil economy will get stronger to help.

As a native no longer living in the State, I have my ideas on WHY Oklahoma is lagging far behind its potential in population growth, but at the risk of being vilified I posit the question to those on this board who LIVE in Oklahoma. What are the Main Reasons (4-5) for Oklahomas historical and present day slow growth? What do YOU want to see happen to reverse the trend? I can tell you Raleigh NC where I now live is gaining about 30K citizens a year and WILL pass OKC in the 2020 census.

I personally don't want OKC growing at 30,000 per year. I'd like to see us growing at 15,000 or so per year. That can be absorbed. I think a problem is that many people don't know what Oklahoma City is. You got many people thinking Oklahoma City is a cattle town still. Then, many think Oklahoma is nothing but wheat fields. They don't realize it's one of the most geographically diverse states in the country. After the park and the CC Complex is up and running Oklahoma City needs to do an extensive promotion campaign to tell the country about itself. Show the new park, the growing downtown, the riverfront, all of the lakes around the city, Bricktown, etc. There's a lot do to in OKC, and it's only growing.

I personally don't want OKC growing at 30,000 per year. I'd like to see us growing at 15,000 or so per year. That can be absorbed. I think a problem is that many people don't know what Oklahoma City is. You got many people thinking Oklahoma City is a cattle town still. Then, many think Oklahoma is nothing but wheat fields. They don't realize it's one of the most geographically diverse states in the country. After the park and the CC Complex is up and running Oklahoma City needs to do an extensive promotion campaign to tell the country about itself. Show the new park, the growing downtown, the riverfront, all of the lakes around the city, Bricktown, etc. There's a lot do to in OKC, and it's only growing.

But then you have the state legislature keeping that perception alive with virtually everything they do. I think a lot of people here underestimate how detrimental this state government is to OKC's potential. You can always point to crazy things happening in other states but you can also point to what those states are doing right. Texas, Georgia, and North Carolina are perfect examples of that. What is Oklahoma (at the state level) doing to improve itself and turn its economy around? The never-ending focus on guns, gays, abortion, and religion is going to assure things stay as they are in Oklahoma. If this state was to get serious about fixing education and infrastructure and stop trying to police everyone's vices and private lives, I think people would be amazed how fast things would turn around.

^^^
Could you be more specific on the differences? What is different between the legislative focus of Oklahoma and the states you mentioned? All those states have recently made national news for the exact legislation you just criticized. I live in Texas and think the legislature is worse on the issues you mentioned. Also, can you provide more specific legislation those states have passed you’d like to see passed? Thanks in advance.

Not sure what the immediate concerns are in those states, but they all seem to have more robust and modern infrastructure and higher education systems. I imagine none of that was possible without the state governments willing to invest in them.

^^^
Could you be more specific on the differences? What is different between the legislative focus of Oklahoma and the states you mentioned? All those states have recently made national news for the exact legislation you just criticized. I live in Texas and think the legislature is worse on the issues you mentioned. Also, can you provide more specific legislation those states have passed youÂ’d like to see passed? Thanks in advance.

I wouldn't hold my breath expecting any specifics from him. Bring up anything to do with something negative about Oklahoma, and you'll always get the same tired and worn out BS reasoning that it's all caused by "Religion, Guns, Gays, Abortion, Religion, State Legislature, Religion, Religion, Religion, etc. Yet he conveniently forgets it's his beloved North Carolina who was embroiled in the recent bathroom gender controversy, district "gerrymandering" uproar, plus much more. And all of that doesn't seem to have stifled any growth out there, has it?? He also fails to mention that when our State was run for decades by the other party, they were just as inept (and corrupt) and failed to advance policies that generated significant population gains or economic growth. Time for some new theories...

But then you have the state legislature keeping that perception alive with virtually everything they do. I think a lot of people here underestimate how detrimental this state government is to OKC's potential. You can always point to crazy things happening in other states but you can also point to what those states are doing right. Texas, Georgia, and North Carolina are perfect examples of that. What is Oklahoma (at the state level) doing to improve itself and turn its economy around? The never-ending focus on guns, gays, abortion, and religion is going to assure things stay as they are in Oklahoma. If this state was to get serious about fixing education and infrastructure and stop trying to police everyone's vices and private lives, I think people would be amazed how fast things would turn around.

North Carolina just lost several massive events because of their bathroom law. The “Oklahoma has the worst and stupid legislature” is fake news. It’s a massive lie this board keeps perpetuating over and over.

Every states legisalture is dumb.

The weather is huge deterrent. The tornado perception does us no favors along with brutally hot summers and cold winters. The wind always blows.

The week of spring is always pretty nice though.

Not sure what the immediate concerns are in those states, but they all seem to have more robust and modern infrastructure and higher education systems. I imagine none of that was possible without the state governments willing to invest in them.

Here's a theory with at least some meat on the bone. But if you want to blame the state government for this, better be prepared to blame both parties.

Boosting OU and OSU’s funding so they can offer more scholarships and increase their endowments is one way. Pull more kids from Texas, and work to keep them in the state after graduation. That’s one way to do it.

All I heard when moving back was about tornadoes, tornadoes, tornadoes. I used to think OK's problems were due to weather, but Texas has the same weather as here, maybe even hotter. Except for an incredible infrastructure and the amenities that come with size, Dallas is no better than OKC in anyway. It's not prettier, hillier, nearer a good ocean, or less conservative. I have to believe it had great support in DC to push for investments in the area and leadership that foresaw the value of building DFW and establishing international trade zones around it.

But then you have the state legislature keeping that perception alive with virtually everything they do. I think a lot of people here underestimate how detrimental this state government is to OKC's potential. You can always point to crazy things happening in other states but you can also point to what those states are doing right. Texas, Georgia, and North Carolina are perfect examples of that. What is Oklahoma (at the state level) doing to improve itself and turn its economy around? The never-ending focus on guns, gays, abortion, and religion is going to assure things stay as they are in Oklahoma. If this state was to get serious about fixing education and infrastructure and stop trying to police everyone's vices and private lives, I think people would be amazed how fast things would turn around.

This comment aligns with many of my views. I would also say some in Oklahoma WANT the State to remain status quo . I would add the States obsession with incarceration of its citizens. Oklahoma makes a lot of money on Jailing people. The OKC Chamber of Commerce President recently voiced your position that State GOVERNANCE causes many Companies to not even consider the State. How sad is that. This is not happening in Texas, NC or Georgia who seem to get Companies almost monthly. Add The NCAA is returning to NC.

This comment aligns with many of my views. I would also say some in Oklahoma WANT the State to remain status quo . I would add the States obsession with incarceration of its citizens. Oklahoma makes a lot of money on Jailing people. The OKC Chamber of Commerce President recently voiced your position that State GOVERNANCE causes many Companies to not even consider the State. How sad is that. This is not happening in Texas, NC or Georgia who seem to get Companies almost monthly. Add The NCAA is returning to NC.

I think this is the case. The incarceration rate is another big one like you said. However, people don't seem to want to acknowledge that there's a problem especially if it concerns the state legislature. One can say other state legislatures are nutty, but there has to be a reason that states like Texas, NC, and Georgia get corporate relocations by the dozens while at the same time it's a very rare deal for Oklahoma. I think the bottom line is most people are happy with the status quo in Oklahoma, for better or for worse, and don't really see a need to change course.

I think this is the case. The incarceration rate is another big one like you said. However, people don't seem to want to acknowledge that there's a problem especially if it concerns the state legislature. One can say other state legislatures are nutty, but there has to be a reason that states like Texas, NC, and Georgia get corporate relocations by the dozens while at the same time it's a very rare deal for Oklahoma. I think the bottom line is most people are happy with the status quo in Oklahoma, for better or for worse, and don't really see a need to change course.

You going to respond to Dankrutka's question for specifics? You like to play in generalities. Give him (and by proxy, us) some specifics answers to his question. See post 1235.

DFW, Houston, Atlanta and Charlotte are all major airline hubs. There are often many reasons those cities are chosen for things. It's a mix of all of it.

All I heard when moving back was about tornadoes, tornadoes, tornadoes. I used to think OK's problems were due to weather, but Texas has the same weather as here, maybe even hotter. Except for an incredible infrastructure and the amenities that come with size, Dallas is no better than OKC in anyway. It's not prettier, hillier, nearer a good ocean, or less conservative. I have to believe it had great support in DC to push for investments in the area and leadership that foresaw the value of building DFW and establishing international trade zones around it.

The mega Texas cities do not have the tornado threats we have, and they all have mild winters. Okc seems to all have some extreme or another.

I agree with the posters that say too much growth would be tough. We can barely get an interchange built in 20 years. Growth would only exasperate some problems.

Not sure what the immediate concerns are in those states, but they all seem to have more robust and modern infrastructure and higher education systems. I imagine none of that was possible without the state governments willing to invest in them.

I don't see NCs legislature being much different than OK. NC has natural beauty, a long-term committment to excellent higher ed, is mid-way between the megalopolis of Boston-DC and Florida, has a prime ocean coast and 3x the population of OK. Think how nice it would be if OKC had a huge reservoir 15 miles outside of town the way most NC cities do for beauty, water, retirement living and recreation

I don't see NCs legislature being much different than OK. NC has natural beauty, a long-term committment to excellent higher ed, is mid-way between the megalopolis of Boston-DC and Florida, has a prime ocean coast and 3x the population of OK. Think how nice it would be if OKC had a huge reservoir 15 miles outside of town the way most NC cities do for beauty, water, retirement living and recreation

I guess you missed it when the Oklahoma Legislature cut funding for higher education by nearly 16% in 2016. I thought it was to get back at promoters, in case they succeeded, who were behind a question to raise state sales tax by a penny to provide funding for education, including some for higher education. The question failed to pass. Since then I think legislators took that as a cue for them to be opposed to any tax hikes for education and why they had one heck of a time this past session before finally arriving at a bill to raise teacher pay.

Solution to lowering the incarceration rate...

14665

My info is that the legislation was written 3 weeks before but because teachers wanted more, it took the drawn out tome to pass. Nevertheless, where NCs legislature does support higher ed, they keep shooting themselves with religion-based bills such as some of their non-gay-friendly stuff.

NC just has some natural advantages because of location and natural beauty that overcomes its legislature.

I think this is the case. The incarceration rate is another big one like you said. However, people don't seem to want to acknowledge that there's a problem especially if it concerns the state legislature. One can say other state legislatures are nutty, but there has to be a reason that states like Texas, NC, and Georgia get corporate relocations by the dozens while at the same time it's a very rare deal for Oklahoma. I think the bottom line is most people are happy with the status quo in Oklahoma, for better or for worse, and don't really see a need to change course.

To second what another poster said....where are the specifics that Dan asked you to cite? You say the same things over and over again but anytime some asks you to back it up, you, and certain others who constantly post similarly negative things, never do.

The mega Texas cities do not have the tornado threats we have, and they all have mild winters. Okc seems to all have some extreme or another.

This is always going to be a disadvantage of OKC just like New Orleans is always going to have that ever-present risk of being drowned in another Katrina. Central Oklahoma is ground zero for tornado alley and while DFW still does get tornadoes and severe weather, it's typically not as bad down there as it is up here. Their winters are also quite a bit milder than OKC's. It's amazing the difference 200 miles south makes.



I agree with the posters that say too much growth would be tough. We can barely get an interchange built in 20 years. Growth would only exasperate some problems.

But that is an Oklahoma problem. Other states can get roads and interchanges built much faster it seems like. From what I understand, it has to do with the way ODOT is funded and once again that goes back to the state legislature.


You going to respond to Dankrutka's question for specifics? You like to play in generalities. Give him (and by proxy, us) some specifics answers to his question. See post 1235.

Elimination of SQ 640, increased teacher pay, school consolidation, increased higher education funding, allowing ODOT to take on debt to get projects done in a more timely manner, a GPT hike, and a public smoking ban is where I would start. I would also loosen the petition requirements to make it easier to get petition initiatives on the ballot. Candidates aren't talking about any of this. Instead, they are pushing the same old tired right-wing ideology responsible for getting the state into the mess it's currently in. "Cut spending, lower taxes" sounds good to the low-information conservative voter but there's only so far you can go before you start "cutting into the bone" so to speak.

All I heard when moving back was about tornadoes, tornadoes, tornadoes. I used to think OK's problems were due to weather, but Texas has the same weather as here, maybe even hotter. Except for an incredible infrastructure and the amenities that come with size, Dallas is no better than OKC in anyway. It's not prettier, hillier, nearer a good ocean, or less conservative. I have to believe it had great support in DC to push for investments in the area and leadership that foresaw the value of building DFW and establishing international trade zones around it.

I don’t know much about Oklahoma, I won’t lie, I’m a Texas guy and I know Texas. Mainly San Antonio l, but I know the other cities well. So, with that said, you’re speaking of subjectives. Saying Dallas isn’t prettier, that’s subjective.

However, saying it’s not less conservative is actually untrue and can be proven.

The Economist released a study in 2014 that gauged and evaluated the political ideologies of a city/metro. Basically, it listed how liberal or conversative a city/metro area was.

OKC was the second most conservative city while Dallas was one of the more liberal cities.

Here are the findings. (https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2014/08/04/urban-ideologies)

As for everything else, you saying aside from the incredible infrastructure and the cosmopolitan amenities that come with the size and quality of life is like saying, aside from the fans, the hot wife, multiple Super Bowl rings and the millions of dollars that come from it, Tom Brady is no better than me. He has two feet like me, teeth like me, and poops like me.

That's my point. Tom Brady began with two feet and a full set of teeth and two arms. He worked hard to be the best, but he began just like everyone else.

San Diego and SF have great harbors for shipping and near perfect weather. Miami has unparalleled beaches and warm winters. Charlotte sits in a beautiful area, not overly far from major populations and has mild winters for retirees. They are blessed with natural features that can partly explain why they are so popular. Dallas and OKC are very similar geographically and weather-wise. No one is choosing Dallas for its climate or to revel in its oceans or mountains. Yet for some reason it explodes with growth compared to OKC.

Likewise, it is not the politics of the region. OKC may be more conservative than Dallas, but OKC is up there with Mesa, AZ, Anaheim, and Arlington, TX. Regions that are expanding or have expanded in the past at rates more comparable to Dallas. So it's not the politics that drive growth.

The point of this line of discussion is what keeps OKC from growing faster, and IMO, it's not due to geography, weather, or politics.

That's my point. Tom Brady began with two feet and a full set of teeth and two arms. He worked hard to be the best, but he began just like everyone else.

San Diego and SF have great harbors for shipping and near perfect weather. Miami has unparalleled beaches and warm winters. Charlotte sits in a beautiful area, not overly far from major populations and has mild winters for retirees. They are blessed with natural features that can partly explain why they are so popular. Dallas and OKC are very similar geographically and weather-wise. No one is choosing Dallas for its climate or to revel in its oceans or mountains. Yet for some reason it explodes with growth compared to OKC.

Likewise, it is not the politics of the region. OKC may be more conservative than Dallas, but OKC is up there with Mesa, AZ, Anaheim, and Arlington, TX. Regions that are expanding or have expanded in the past at rates more comparable to Dallas. So it's not the politics that drive growth.

The point of this line of discussion is what keeps OKC from growing faster, and IMO, it's not due to geography, weather, or politics.

+1 but


11:05 AM - 4/6/18

Guest said:
Roy, what hurdles does the chamber constantly deal with that us readers might be surprised to hear?

Roy Williams replied:
The image that is created by our legislature in many, many ways such as our obsession over guns, social issues and other issues that continually get us national press that keeps companies from even engaging with us is a problem.

Steve Lackmeyer replied:
I am going to assume, Roy, that you cringe whenever you hear Oklahoma is about to be discussed on the Daily Show or This Week with John Oliver.


11:34 AM - 4/6/18

Ryan J said:
Regarding criminal justice reform and even mental health services, are these things that we can tackle as a city, or is it necessary to have the state’s backing?

Roy Williams replied:
Ideally you want the state's backing. But unfortunately, not just in Oklahoma but across the country we are seeing state legislators cut back resources that directly impact their cities. And it's not just in criminal justice, it's in education, it's in public safety, infrastructure, and more and more we as cities and regions are going to have to figure out a new model for back-filling what state government is no longer willing to do. Just because state government doesn't fund it doesn't mean the problem goes away.


Tony C said:
As far as more stable state and city revenue, I would be happy to have real estate tax rates double, income taxes raised, more street parking that requires payment, and especially car emissions standards and checks. Oklahoma is way more lax with regards to real estate taxes and emissions than in other states, and a stable revenue source would be extremely helpful to aid teacher salaries, infrastructure projects, and the like. Am I alone in my hopes to see the state pursue such revenue streams? Are you seeing any policy makers going in this direction?

Roy Williams replied:
I don't. Oklahomans have no desire for increasing property tax rates and using it in the manner other states (like Texas) use it. That's how Texas funds schools.

OU President David Boren slams governor's proposed funding cuts for higher education
President Boren says constant reductions are harming higher education in the state.
By KIM ARCHER World Staff Writer Feb 16, 2014

Oklahoma likely to lead the nation in incarceration by 2019 amid 'limited' reforms, DOC director says
State leads the nation in female incarceration, could pass overall leader Louisiana after it passed reform legislation
By Ben Botkin Oklahoma Watch Jan 21, 2018

Oklahoma ranks among worst in U.S. for health
Jaclyn Cosgrove
by JACLYN COSGROVE
Published: Thu, December 15, 2016 12:00 AM Updated: Sat, December 17, 2016 4:00 PM

LISTS-NEWS
15 States with the Worst Roads and Infrastructure in US
Published on March 26, 2018 at 3:25 pm by BOJANA PETKOVIĆ in Lists,News
Oklahoma #1

How do we stand up for Oklahoma and demand (vote) for leadership at all levels of State Government that enacts legislation that improves the Quality of Life and Standard of Living in the State? That is the fundamental question, not oceans, forests, hot weather,cold weather.

dcsooner. I agree completely. What I am surmising is that OK lacks leadership of any kind, from the left or right. I don't follow state politics, so I might be wrong, but from what I read on OKCtalk, at least Mick C. embraced ideas that where successful elsewhere and implemented them in OKC to its betterment.

I love OK, but I long accepted that our people don't like to think outside the box and are more than willing to accept the basics in aesthetics and from government in exchange for low taxes.

As long as we get back to the growth levels we started from 2010-15 (Metro 20,000 annual growth average) we won't have to concern ourselves with over population; not being able to keep up with the influx of population. OKC's economy is more diversified (not energy dependent) than before--we still have a long road ahead.

Austin, Raleigh & Salt Lake City have braced themselves for growth; it appears to take us longer to get the infrastructure to support the corporate growth needed to sustain any kind of population boom.

Until our rural legislatures understand that they will benefit from the growth of Oklahoma's two major metro areas, they will continue to legislate for their own individual interest; therefore OKC has to continue to support its own agenda. We need to keep the incentives in place like Quality Jobs, MAPS etc.

Think of where OKC would be without MAPS? Aging city owned buildings & infrastructure, no downtown arena, ballpark, no 50-story Devon Tower, no NBA franchise; a city without a future. Our best educated talent sucked into Dallas while we play footsies with Tulsa & Wichita for scraps & crumbs.

A major airline hub seems to be helping most of the places on this list.

That's my point. Tom Brady began with two feet and a full set of teeth and two arms. He worked hard to be the best, but he began just like everyone else.

San Diego and SF have great harbors for shipping and near perfect weather. Miami has unparalleled beaches and warm winters. Charlotte sits in a beautiful area, not overly far from major populations and has mild winters for retirees. They are blessed with natural features that can partly explain why they are so popular. Dallas and OKC are very similar geographically and weather-wise. No one is choosing Dallas for its climate or to revel in its oceans or mountains. Yet for some reason it explodes with growth compared to OKC.

Likewise, it is not the politics of the region. OKC may be more conservative than Dallas, but OKC is up there with Mesa, AZ, Anaheim, and Arlington, TX. Regions that are expanding or have expanded in the past at rates more comparable to Dallas. So it's not the politics that drive growth.

The point of this line of discussion is what keeps OKC from growing faster, and IMO, it's not due to geography, weather, or politics.

Dallas has milder winters, is marginally more green (though I'm not sure how much of this is due to climate or better beatification), and has a lower tornado threat compared to OKC. The big thing there though is the entire DFW metroplex has over twice the population of the entire state of Oklahoma. Dallas proper, in my opinion, feels like another world compared to OKC. It has a very different culture. It's really hard to believe the two places are only three hours apart. On the other hand, parts of the metroplex, particularly on the Ft Worth side, have an more of an OKC feel to them. DFW is naturally going to have significant draw due to its size, still relative low cost of living, and major hub airport.

In regards to Anaheim, Mesa, and Arlington, first of all those are suburbs of major metro areas and not core cities. Edmond and Norman should be compared to those places, not OKC proper. Most suburbs lean conservative compared to their core cities.

A major airline hub seems to be helping most of the places on this list.

Until OKC separates the umbilical airline cord it has with DFW, you'll then see accelerated growth. Development of a mini-hub at WRWA may be on the horizon.