OKC metro area growth has slowed, compared to growth from July 2010 - July 2011. This new growth is mediocre, no boom.

No. It hasn't. It has increased. You're looking at growth from April 2010 - July 2011 and comparing it to July 2011 - July2012. Look at the spreadsheet.

Oh ok, you are right...well good deal then, my mistake, lol.

What I like is the growth from April 2010 - July 2012, +43,573 at 3.5%...that's pretty good...

OKC needs to overcome its image issues if there is to ever be a serious population boom. I imagine our city's growth will slow as the national economy improves and people aren't moving here for the sole reason of escaping the recession. The media still dogs OKC for the most part as being a backwater, cowboy town. Even with all the improvements, OKC still lags its peer cities and even smaller cities in many areas. OKC needs to continue what it's doing as far as downtown and urban revitalization but also bring in more white collar jobs. I am hoping the rumor is true about a corporate relocation to OKC because that's just what this city needs, especially with all the problems at Chesapeake and Sandridge.

No. It hasn't. It has increased. You're looking at growth from April 2010 - July 2011 and comparing it to July 2011 - July2012. Look at the spreadsheet.

Yep, growth accelerated somewhat. The increased from 2010 to 2011 was about +17,900. Depending on how you measure, that puts us in the top 12-15% of MSA's for growth. I'll take that.

One bad note, the CSA's growth (OKC-Shawnee) is actually slower than OKC's MSA growth. So Pottawatomie County needs to get it in gear LOL.

Tulsa MSA's growth continues to unimpress, growing about +6,494, or about 0.69%. That's less than half of OKC. Fortunately for them, the Census Bureau has changed their definitions of CSA's and theirs now includes Muskogee, so their overall population sits at 1.122 million.

EDIT: On a somewhat related note, Dallas-Fort Worth has now officially spilled into Oklahoma, with the addition of Durant into their CSA.

Yep, growth accelerated somewhat. The increased from 2010 to 2011 was about +17,900. Depending on how you measure, that puts us in the top 12-15% of MSA's for growth. I'll take that.

One bad note, the CSA's growth (OKC-Shawnee) is actually slower than OKC's MSA growth. So Pottawatomie County needs to get it in gear LOL.

Tulsa MSA's growth continues to unimpress, growing about +6,494, or about 0.69%. That's less than half of OKC. Fortunately for them, the Census Bureau has changed their definitions of CSA's and theirs now includes Muskogee, so their overall population sits at 1.122 million.

I don't see a problem with Shawnee limping along growth-wise. If Shawnee has a boom it will likely be at a cost to OKC, similar to Little Rock's situation with nearby Conway.

Compared to our peer metro areas like Memphis, Louisville, Tampa, Richmond, Tulsa, and Omaha...the OKC metro area is growing at a faster rate, which is good. We are not booming yet, but I like the steady growth pattern.

More importantly, OKC's net domestic migration is about +10,265 just for this year. That's very good and indicative that the population increase is actually people moving here, not just from more births or international immigration.

I'm interested to see where people are coming from.

Oklahoma's biggest micropolitan area, Stillwater, is still growing, but not very impressively. Is it considered too far away to be added into Oklahoma City?

Oklahoma's biggest micropolitan area, Stillwater, is still growing, but not very impressively. Is it considered too far away to be added into Oklahoma City?

Not necessarily. It's calculated based on commute patterns. If enough people commute to OKC from Stillwater, then it could be added to the MSA. As far as I know though, Stillwater pretty much stands on its own and is not a bedroom community for OKC or Tulsa.

Oklahoma City metro area continued growth last year and closed in on 1.3 million people | News OK (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-metro-area-continued-growth-last-year-and-closed-in-on-1.3-million-people/article/3765961)

Not necessarily. It's calculated based on commute patterns. If enough people commute to OKC from Stillwater, then it could be added to the MSA. As far as I know though, Stillwater pretty much stands on its own and is not a bedroom community for OKC or Tulsa.

If Durant can be included in DFW's CSA at 95 miles away then I don't see why Stillwater won't be added eventually. Which CSA claims it though, Tulsa or OKC? They are nearly equidistant from each other and Payne Co. is bordered by counties in both CSA's.

If Durant can be included in DFW's CSA at 95 miles away then I don't see why Stillwater won't be added eventually. Which CSA claims it though, Tulsa or OKC? They are nearly equidistant from each other and Payne Co. is bordered by counties in both CSA's.

Tulsa & OKC can grow into one big city & Stillwater can be a part if that mega city. :)

Tulsa & OKC can grow into one big city & Stillwater can be a part if that mega city. :)I asked about that awhile back and apparently that has been addressed on this board. I think most on here were against the notion saying that it will not ever happen due to the gap. I think it could, but after some thinking, I firmly believe it will never share the relationship nor have the infill density that Dallas has with Fort Worth. Also as a few have pointed out, the cities are kind of growing in the opposite direction.

Also, I've been meaning to start a thread asking what Oklahoma town has the could, potential or is most likely (best candidate), to become another "major" city 500,000< besides Tulsa and OKC. Unless some pop up city sprang up the extreme southwest, southeast, or in the panhandle, it could also be included in the fantasized OKC-Tulsa Metroplex. So, I would be kind of weird to me. Plus, the only cities I was thinking of were either Stillwater or Lawton. I suppose Ardmore could. I did read the the Woodward-Elk City-Weatherford micropolitian area is growing at a pretty fast rate. I know this would be waaaaaaaaaaay down the road, but again, this was just a speculation/fantasy kind of thing.

Also, I've been meaning to start a thread asking what Oklahoma town has the could, potential or is most likely (best candidate), to become another "major" city 500,000< besides Tulsa and OKC. Unless some pop up city sprang up the extreme southwest, southeast, or in the panhandle, it could also be included in the fantasized OKC-Tulsa Metroplex. So, I would be kind of weird to me. Plus, the only cities I was thinking of were either Stillwater or Lawton. I suppose Ardmore could. I did read the the Woodward-Elk City-Weatherford micropolitian area is growing at a pretty fast rate. I know this would be waaaaaaaaaaay down the road, but again, this was just a speculation/fantasy kind of thing.

Might as well have included Enid as well.

Stillwater should have more luck in attracting industry than it does. It has a very reliable water supply not effected by droughts. It's electrical power supply seems quite reliable as well. And there's always new college graduates every year. Maybe Stillwater government and chamber of commerce leaders need to take a close look at what other college towns are doing that are making them grow faster.

Might as well have included Enid as well.

Stillwater should have more luck in attracting industry than it does. It has a very reliable water supply not effected by droughts. It's electrical power supply seems quite reliable as well. And there's always new college graduates every year. Maybe Stillwater government and chamber of commerce leaders need to take a close look at what other college towns are doing that are making them grow faster.

Tulsa has a similar list of advantages over many cities and it has pretty tepid growth. Effective leadership is a big part of this, and neither city has it.

Might as well have included Enid as well.

Stillwater should have more luck in attracting industry than it does. It has a very reliable water supply not effected by droughts. It's electrical power supply seems quite reliable as well. And there's always new college graduates every year. Maybe Stillwater government and chamber of commerce leaders need to take a close look at what other college towns are doing that are making them grow faster.You're right. I completely forgot about Enid.

How is OKC doing recently as far as retaining its college graduates? What I am asking is how many OU, OCU, UCO, etc graduates end up getting jobs in OKC vs how many move elsewhere? 'Brain drain' has been a huge problem for OKC in the past but is it still?

How is OKC doing recently as far as retaining its college graduates? What I am asking is how many OU, OCU, UCO, etc graduates end up getting jobs in OKC vs how many move elsewhere? 'Brain drain' has been a huge problem for OKC in the past but is it still?

Obviously that situation has greatly improved but there is really no accurate way to measure that.

Obviously that situation has greatly improved but there is really no accurate way to measure that.

That would make an interesting study for one of our universities to undertake, wouldn't it? Find out where each of the city's magnet high school graduates (1998-2008) are living and working now. Also includethe top 10% of each graduating class for all city high schools, and drop any student that did not go on to complete a degree. That would probably be a better measure of brain drain, as many students at OU/OSU come from elsewhere in Oklahoma or from neighboring states.

On this subject, you might find this graphic interesting.

I keep the database for my high school class, Putnam City Class of 1978. This was the last year before PC North opened; we had almost 900 graduate.

You can see that almost half the class (including yours truly) now live out of state. This really accelerated in the late 80's and 90's when the economy went in the tank... I know at our 10-year in 1988 fully 75% still lived in Oklahoma (once again, including yours truly).

The large majority of my class are college educated, as in the 70's PC schools were second to none in Oklahoma. In fact, almost all the people who no longer live in the state have college degrees, many of them advanced. Much more highly educated in general than the half that never left OK.

http://pc78.org/images/states7212.jpg

BTW, while some from my class have left the state and then returned, every five years when we do these reunions I update the database to find a substantial increase in net migration out of Oklahoma.

On this subject, you might find this graphic interesting.

http://pc78.org/images/states7212.jpg

No love for Iowa? Doesn't anybody want to live in Dubuque?

What I find disturbing about the graphic is that all the missing/deceased are in the Atlantic Ocean (gruesome fate)

But seriously...

You do have to recognize that young folks will always want to go to other places ("see the world"). That's pretty normal. In fact, the more educated the person, the more likely they are to move about and try to prove themselves in other (and often bigger) markets, IMO. Particularly among certain high paying professions where the resume looks bland unless it has something of the sort (5 years in Chicago, 8 years in L.A., etc.) Dallas kids move off to Chicago, Chicago kids move to New York, New York kids move to Boston, etc.

In other words, some of our cream moves off to experience the big world. But how many of other cities cream moves here for similar reason? The balance between the two is what really matters -- i.e. hopefully you get at least a wash, or better yet, a net gain. And after bouncing around a bit, some will return anyway -- if the economics allow.

That being said, many people do like to nest in their own community. The more graduate retention, the better.

And if those who have wandered away CAN'T come back, because of lack of suitable positions, then yeah... that's bad.

Certainly, there is always the tendency for the more educated to be adventurous and to seek new frontiers, regardless of where they grew up.

But it's pretty clear to me that lots of people my age left during the 90's who had stuck around for at least 10 years or so. I can assure you the bad economy had a lot to do with me leaving in 1989... And while some will always want to go anywhere other than where they grew up, there are also those that would be more likely to stay if 1) there were good job opportunities and 2) fun and interesting things to do. OKC has come a long way on both fronts in the last 20 years.

Certainly, there is always the tendency for the more educated to be adventurous and to seek new frontiers, regardless of where they grew up.

But it's pretty clear to me that lots of people my age left during the 90's who had stuck around for at least 10 years or so. I can assure you the bad economy had a lot to do with me leaving in 1989... And while some will always want to go anywhere other than where they grew up, there are also those that would be more likely to stay if 1) there were good job opportunities and 2) fun and interesting things to do. OKC has come a long way on both fronts in the last 20 years.

I agree with this. I always thought growing up I'd end up moving to DFW after I graduated college. When I did finally graduate is when everything went down hill and I had better luck finding a job here. Like you said OKC has come a long ways and I know more college grads are staying here, but I guess we will wait to see long term how that ends up.

Great article on population growth for Metros Over 1 Mil. Quick Synopsis, OKC ranked 20th out of 52 metros that have over 1 Mil. Click on link below:

America's Fastest- and Slowest-Growing Cities | Newgeography.com (http://www.newgeography.com/content/003569-americas-fastest-and-slowest-growing-cities)

Great news. I think just being in the conversation as a high growth city will cause some who otherwise would not consider Oklahoma City to investigate. I also think as Texas (DFW) in particular continues to explode, some may find OKC to be more to their liking. OKC just needs to continue to increase its variety in key areas important to younger people, shopping, dining, entertaiment, jobs.

With around 2000 people a month moving into the metro area that shows that companies here are hiring. I recently participated in the Chambers Greater Grads Career Fair. There were over a hundred of employers talking to graduating students and actively recruiting.

Great article on population growth for Metros Over 1 Mil. Quick Synopsis, OKC ranked 20th out of 52 metros that have over 1 Mil. Click on link below:

America's Fastest- and Slowest-Growing Cities | Newgeography.com (http://www.newgeography.com/content/003569-americas-fastest-and-slowest-growing-cities)

From that same website, I think this is an interesting read, a take on how these "progressive cities" are just the current version of White Flight:

The White City | Newgeography.com (http://www.newgeography.com/content/001110-the-white-city)

Here is a little tidbit to add, the Oklahoma City metro area is the 11th fastest growing metro area over 1 million people, since the census in 2010!

From that same website, I think this is an interesting read, a take on how these "progressive cities" are just the current version of White Flight:

The White City | Newgeography.com (http://www.newgeography.com/content/001110-the-white-city)

Portland and Seattle are championed for their diversity and liberalism. They are also the whitest cities and most people moving to them are white young professionals. Now Portland and Seattle are definitely two of America's jewel cities but one can't help but notice the irony.

From that same website, I think this is an interesting read, a take on how these "progressive cities" are just the current version of White Flight:

The White City | Newgeography.com (http://www.newgeography.com/content/001110-the-white-city)

That was a very fascinating article. I encourage everyone to read it. Thanks for posting.

I don't like the article, its basically stating that the most progressive cities are "white" cities, which I find a bit racist. Then they just highlighted these cities in comparison to African-American population, but forgot about the Hispanic/Latino population. They talked about Austin being a "progressive white city", but as of 2010, Austin had a Hispanic/Latino population of 35%, thats a big number. Then add the 8% of African-American population, you are looking at Austin as 40% minority, so how can they say its a White City?

Thank you.

Seattle is so far from being American Caucasian its laughable the article was published. And this is what is being implied. Seattle is incredibly diverse.

As you might expect, over-simplifying the data skipped over important aspects. There are large populations of German, Irish, and Dutch mixed in with those "white" numbers. Which wouldn't be included in any type of 'white flight' discussion. If you remove them and other minority classes, you have a fairly standard mix of 50% ish of Caucasian whites.

Sorry, I just can't stand these types of reaching arguments that try really hard to discuss race without really either doing the research or contemplating much deeper causes (like migration patterns)

Dd you read the while article? It did address migration patterns and how the European ideas had helped to influence the more "progressive" decisions.

I think you make valid points, but so does the article.

Yes but glazed over those points mostly because it seems they were just tossing them in to keep the article more civilized. To me, it is more central. The whole article felt like an equivocation hemmed with some reasonable data.

This'll be my last post on this subject in this topic, to keep from straying too far off, but what I didn't like is the article saying that people move to Portland, Seattle, Denver, etc. in order to escape blacks. I think that's untrue in most cases. Otherwise the article brings up an interesting, and somewhat ironic occurrence. Not something that I really believe requires any action, but certainly interesting.

The population growth for OKC is more than I thought it was. Impressive! Good for OKC!

now, back to Oklahoma City's growth. Here is another article from the same source. The Rise of the Great Plains: Regional Opportunity in the 21st Century | Newgeography.com (http://www.newgeography.com/content/003175-the-rise-great-plains-regional-opportunity-21st-century)

Note the skyline pic.

And

Large Cities Rankings - 2012 Best Cities for Job Growth | Newgeography.com (http://www.newgeography.com/content/002795-large-cities-rankings-2012-best-cities-job-growth)

This is a really nice website!

With the fast growth of the Norman area, do you think the census bureau will eventually have our metro area classified as Okahoma City-Norman MSA, like they have Oklahoma City-Shawnee CSA? I wonder why they don't have this classification, many other cities have this classification, Austin-Round Rock MSA, Omaha-Council Bluffs MSA, etc.

With the fast growth of the Norman area, do you think the census bureau will eventually have our metro area classified as Okahoma City-Norman MSA, like they have Oklahoma City-Shawnee CSA? I wonder why they don't have this classification, many other cities have this classification, Austin-Round Rock MSA, Omaha-Council Bluffs MSA, etc.

while edmond has 25k or so less people .. it is growing faster than norman ..

I have always wondered if there are naming conventions. Does a secondary city need to reach a certain percentage of population of the primary city before its name is included in the MSA/CSA?

Since it sometimes seems a bit arbitrary on when they are included. I had wondered if it was based from what in prior years had been separate entities in their stats. Which would make tracing history back easier before computers were common.

The Shawnee name in the Oklahoma City/Shawnee CSA is included because Shawnee has its own micropolitan area and the CSA is a marriage of the Oklahoma City Metropolitan Statistical area and the Shawnee Micropolitan area. I don't think Norman can stand on its own despite it having an intact central city, it is a college town that has grown up into a suburb. I honestly don't think Shawnee stands on its own either nor do I think it is an edge city that should have its own mSA, as Shawnee is also a bedroom community for OKC.

Personally, I think all of the OKC/Shawnee CSA as it is currently defined is truly the Oklahoma City metropolitan area (MSA) and that the Greater CSA should include Stillwater micropolitan area, to be the Oklahoma City/Stillwater CSA. Stillwater IS an edge city with its own mSA and stand on its own but at the same time does depend on OKC for most essential functional services including utility, governance, transportation/airport, major employment, and education (and vice versa). I think Stillwater having a slight cultural connection to Tulsa makes it a somewhat more difficult choice, but functionally the area is definitely an extension of Metro OKC (hence edge city or part of the CSA, but not MSA).

Notice that they are including now Muskogee for the Tulsa CSA (and just calling it that I believe) drastically inflating Tulsa CSA to over 1m all of sudden in the process; but one could argue that both Bartlesville and Muskogee functionally stand on their own without Tulsa (particularly Bartlesville IMO) as edge city(ies) but both are culturally connected to Tulsa.

Again, I'd like to see an Oklahoma City/Stillwater CSA to include Oklahoma City MSA (current OKC CSA definition) + Stillwater mSA. The population would be a cool 1.6M in 2012. The new OKC MSA would be 1.46M and rightfully so.

^^^ Charlotte recently did something similar and have inflated their MSA from 1.7 million to 2.2 million by including Statesville and Salisbury, far out communities that do stand on their own but depend on Charlotte for various services. I think the current definition of the OKC metro area is the most accurate, but being that so many others are doing tricks to inflate their numbers OKC should as well to stay competitive on paper with its peers.

I'm not so sure its that simple. Cities have far less control over this type of stuff than you would imagine.

Generally speaking, these types of determinations are based on several things, the most cut and dry being commute patterns. I can't say I've ever met people who have commuted between Stillwater and OKC, or even Stillwater and Guthrie (which is in the OKC MSA). I'm sure it exists but their needs to be a certain threshold before Payne County would be added to the CSA, and chamber of commerce types would not have a lot of say.

If anything, I can see Payne County being added to the Tulsa MSA, as there is a pretty sizable commuter populations between the two places. Lots of OSU students and staff driving between the Stillwater and Tulsa campuses. And just going off personal knowledge of when I did an internship in that area, quite a few people from rural Creek and Pawnee Counties (both in Tulsa's MSA) commute to work in Cushing and Stillwater. It would be weird though since Stillwater is in OKC's media market and has a 405 area code.

More likely than both of these is Stillwater is just made into its own MSA.

right, like I said Stillwater does seem to have cultural connection to Tulsa but is clearly functionally aligned to OKC. It is one of those places that due to OSU it is somewhat viewed as Tulsa's territory culturally.

Stillwater is already an mSA of about 74,000 by the way, not an MSA. I think it might depend upon which direction development of Payne County expands (toward OKC or Tulsa) on who might land it in their CSA.

In this mornings chat Steve mentioned that Oklahoma City's population is growing by 4,000 per month. I'm not doubting Steve, but does anyone know if we're really growing by that much a month?

In this mornings chat Steve mentioned that Oklahoma City's population is growing by 4,000 per month. I'm not doubting Steve, but does anyone know if we're really growing by that much a month?

That's probably including not only relocations but also births. My guess is the birthrate in OKC is higher than the national average, as people here get married younger and have more kids than the national rate. The metro area as a whole grows by 4,000 people per month.

Last estimate I saw was about 2,000 a month.

Un- related, but still somewhat relevant, OKC's GDP rose substantially from 2005 (43B) to 2009 ( 61B), That is damn impressive to jump 18B Dollars in 4 Years! OKC 2013 has got to be pushing 65B now? Compared to some other peer sized metros this is not big, but not many are growing as fast as ours!

Last estimate I saw was about 2,000 a month.

That's what I figured it was close to. 4,000 seemed a bit of a stretch.

Last estimate I saw was about 2,000 a month.

That's about what I assumed it was & like bchris02 mentioned, Steve may have meant the metro is growing by 4,000 a month.

I would guess that net monthly pop. Gain of 2k people is for the entire OKC msa, not just for the city proper.

I would say the OKC metroplex is growing about 2,500 a month, which is a pretty good clip. I think its safe to say that the population of Oklahoma City right now is probably around 610,000 and metro area 1.3 million.

^^^ Charlotte recently did something similar and have inflated their MSA from 1.7 million to 2.2 million by including Statesville and Salisbury, far out communities that do stand on their own but depend on Charlotte for various services. I think the current definition of the OKC metro area is the most accurate, but being that so many others are doing tricks to inflate their numbers OKC should as well to stay competitive on paper with its peers.

I'm afraid you need to find a better example than what Charlotte has done. Because Statesville is 40.2 miles from Charlotte. People who live and work in Statesville amounts to 57.6%. With Salisbury, it's 37.5 miles from Charlotte. In Salisbury, 61.5% of people both live and work there. In the case of Stillwater, it's 51.4 miles from OKC. In Stillwater 82.5% of the people both live and work there.
Source for info: city-data.com.

Stillwater is probably growing fast enough, and Enid, too, so Oklahoma will have the addition of two new metro areas by 2020. OSU, from having $500,000,000 in scholarships to offer will help out student wise, along with new workers needed to staff new buildings.

Aren't Stillwater and Enid already micropolitan areas?

I would guess that net monthly pop. Gain of 2k people is for the entire OKC msa, not just for the city proper.

Yep. Around 1,800 a month to be exact

Current Estimates Data - U.S Census Bureau (http://www.census.gov/popest/data/index.html)


Oklahoma City, OK

2011 Pop: 1,275,821 2012 Pop: 1,296,565

State Chamber and other orgs do their own internal estimates based off of utility connections, housing starts and vacancy, etc. so they could very well be seeing something different. OKC Metro was one of the few in which the census bureau slightly underestimated in population the past decade.

Aren't Stillwater and Enid already micropolitan areas?

Yes, but metropolitan areas start where the main city is at least 50,000 in population. It is hopeed that big box stores, chain stores and restaurants show even more interest in locating there when that happens.