Here it is January now. Have they done anything at all?

Did you visit anytime during December?

Did you visit anytime during December?

I did drive by it on I-240 and Bath and Body Works is on the sign where the anchors normally are placed. That is not a good sign. :)

I went to crossroads mall on december 23 to get something for my wife at victoria secret. well i got front row parking lol. The place did not decorate for christmas except for the little santa gretting area. they did not have any special holiday kiosk vendors or anything, the mall is dead store in the center of the mall are even closing or closed. i would say maybe a dozen stores are left maybe less

I did drive by it on I-240 and Bath and Body Works is on the sign where the anchors normally are placed. That is not a good sign. :)

That road sign has been kind of a bad omen for them since the large anchors left. Every time they post a merchant, they leave. Bath and Body Works will stick it out for the long hall. They were open in Heritage Park until the last six months. According to the manger my wife and I talked to the day before they closed for good. They would have stayed until the very end however, the mall owner quit turning on the inside lights and they did away with their security guards.

Why did these clowns buy the mall, only to do nothing they said they were going to? I swear, humans can be so moronic at times. Makes me ashamed to be called a human.

Why did these clowns buy the mall, only to do nothing they said they were going to? I swear, humans can be so moronic at times. Makes me ashamed to be called a human.

Maybe they had some spare cash in a box and sitting around one night huffing cubanos and swilling cognac they were sitting there and decided, "Ok, heads we buy that lil island off the Florida coast & tails we snatch up the CR mall for a song and sit on it, just to muck up the dreams of someone over at okctalk ..... <coin flippin in air> Sweet! Dreamwreckers R Us!"

Why did these clowns buy the mall, only to do nothing they said they were going to? I swear, humans can be so moronic at times. Makes me ashamed to be called a human.

take it for what it is worth, but when i went to the mall dec 23rd a employee and victoria secret was havinga conversation with me about how empty the mall is, she told me the new owners plan to revamp it starting sometime spring of this year, also they are in talks with getting some new tenants in, but then again this has been going on for years now at this mall and yet nothing has came about, hopefully something good will happen in 2012 if not then this mall is doomed for good with no chance

I dunno. I have to think even a superficial "re-treatment" of a place the size of CRM takes time to plan and get underway, so while it may be naive on my part, I'm willing to give these owners the benefit of the doubt. If it were truly a shell operation merely to get the land, and all the mall rehab talk was, in fact, just talk, surely we'd start hearing rumors about them shopping the land to prospective investors/developers.

I know the land on which CRM sits is bound to be worth a ton more than $3M, but I wonder how much it would cost to flatten the place for some entirely new development? Surely that would be a (very) significant chunk of change, not like tearing down an old 7-11...

Why did these clowns buy the mall, only to do nothing they said they were going to? I swear, humans can be so moronic at times. Makes me ashamed to be called a human.

Well if I had that kind of money laying around...I'd have bought it too.

Just to race go-carts in.

Probably a good thing I don't have that kind of money laying around.

Hopefully they can get some anchors in there.

I think this is about to go under major renovation, saw a bid for a multi-million dollar renovation, about time!

I think this is about to go under major renovation, saw a bid for a multi-million dollar renovation, about time!

Good, hopefully we will here some details soon.

No matter which way they go rather it be demolition or renovation it's going to cost millions. I think the retail days are pretty much over unless IKEA takes over anchor spot. I don't think IKEA would move there. I think there choices would be I-40 West between Yukon and I-44, Edmond on I-35 or Norman on I-35. They are going to want a high traffic area and they will want an area that has a tall crop of their target customer.

I think it will become an office park and event center. In my opinion the best use would be to convert to a convention center. It could be used for small group conventions, weddings, concerts and other group functions.

[QUOTE=oneforone;499157I think it will become an office park and event center. In my opinion the best use would be to convert to a convention center. It could be used for small group conventions, weddings, concerts and other group functions.[/QUOTE]

Unless they tear it down and rebuild, it's much too large and ill suited for that.

oneforone, retail are not close to being over. lol

As for IKEA, if they are something special that people will always go out of their way to get to their store, then it doesn't matter where they locate. Crossroads Mall is such a prime location, I think IKEA should move in. If they do that, then watch the flock of retailers rushing in, because people are gonna be flocking in.

For all the Crossroads patriots who still believe in the place, I would strongly suggest that you find an example of a "dead mall" or near-dead one that was magically brought back to life in a different form. It has happened, but the places where they survive a second life are areas with MUCH more favorable 5-mile demographic data than Crossroads. You would be hard pressed to find a mall having a dramatic rejuvenation with similar demographics of the Crossroads. Good luck though!

As for Ikea, if you look at where most of the American ones are located (Dallas, Houston, Colorado, Virginia, Atlanta, and Maryland are the ones I am familiar with), they tend to be located in suburban, trendy, or college areas, making Norman or Edmond the likeliest places, IF one comes to OKC.

For all the Crossroads patriots who still believe in the place, I would strongly suggest that you find an example of a "dead mall" or near-dead one that was magically brought back to life in a different form.

Penn Square comes to mind for one, and it came back quite vibrantly as retail. Shepherd Mall came back as repurposed business space.

PSM back in the roughly eighties era was a desolate wasteland, an open-air mall stuck with 60's painted brick veneers, empty stores, a few anchor tenants, and not much of a future. Business was being drawn away by Crossroads to the south and Quail Springs to the north. Investors came along with this ridiculous plan to enclose it, add a second floor, overhaul the interior, and the rest as they say is history.

Shepherd Mall was, in its day, a somewhat "suburban" mall in that it was north of downtown (although by today's standards it isn't that far away), and it started dying a slow death very much in the vein of Crossroads. It was particularly distinctive for the fact that it featured a movie theater, some rather eccentric shops, along with traditional anchor tenants like what was then called Dillards Brown Dunkin and the old JCPenny. As that area faded economically, so did Shepherd Mall, and a walk through was a sad tour through a cavernous empty space, until it was "re-imagined" as a commercial space rather than retail. Last time I checked, its still there.

Now, before I get blasted by the "plow-down-Crossroads-its-a-gangbanger-wasteland" crowd, I am NOT, repeat NOT predicting that the same thing is possible with Crossroads. I am replying to the query that sought examples of revived malls presumed dead and unrestoreable. It can be done. Crossroads represents perhaps the biggest rehabilitation project of any in this region, and I would say the probability of failure is high, but if someone's willing to give it a shot, power to 'em. Maybe it will work. Maybe it won't. I'm not at all smart enough to make an absolutist prediction either way. We'll just have to see how it works out.

Let me clarify... try to find a similar mall situated in a similar location with similar demographics in a different city.

Honestly, I would love to see the place comeback however, I am looking at the situation with a realstic attitude. The mall is old and likely cost more to operate then a store that can be built from the ground up. You also have to look at the fact the customer base is gone. Even if you could revamp the place and bring quality tenants back it will never do the traffic count it used to bring. You have to factor in that people have switched back to driving just a few miles from home. People are no longer drive all over the place to do their shopping. Gasoline cost too much to blow through it like it's candy. In Crossroads prime, $20 is the most people paid for a tank of gas. Now people are averaging $50-$75 a tank. Not to mention malls had the bulk of the stores. Today you can shop most of your favorite store in less then 10 minutes from your house.

You have to factor in that people have switched back to driving just a few miles from home. People are no longer drive all over the place to do their shopping. Gasoline cost too much to blow through it like it's candy. In Crossroads prime, $20 is the most people paid for a tank of gas. Now people are averaging $50-$75 a tank. Not to mention malls had the bulk of the stores. Today you can shop most of your favorite store in less then 10 minutes from your house.

I think if you did a survey at the new Outlet Mall you would find out that that's not true.

Honestly, I would love to see the place comeback however, I am looking at the situation with a realstic attitude. The mall is old and likely cost more to operate then a store that can be built from the ground up. You also have to look at the fact the customer base is gone. Even if you could revamp the place and bring quality tenants back it will never do the traffic count it used to bring. You have to factor in that people have switched back to driving just a few miles from home. People are no longer drive all over the place to do their shopping. Gasoline cost too much to blow through it like it's candy. In Crossroads prime, $20 is the most people paid for a tank of gas. Now people are averaging $50-$75 a tank. Not to mention malls had the bulk of the stores. Today you can shop most of your favorite store in less then 10 minutes from your house.

If it was a gas issue you would think the reverse would be true. People would like to drive to one centralized location for all their goods instead of driving to all these different stores. Maybe in 30 years when gas is ridiculously expensive and malls are integrated into a mass transit system they will make a comeback.

Honestly, I would love to see the place comeback however, I am looking at the situation with a realstic attitude. The mall is old and likely cost more to operate then a store that can be built from the ground up. You also have to look at the fact the customer base is gone. Even if you could revamp the place and bring quality tenants back it will never do the traffic count it used to bring. You have to factor in that people have switched back to driving just a few miles from home. People are no longer drive all over the place to do their shopping. Gasoline cost too much to blow through it like it's candy. In Crossroads prime, $20 is the most people paid for a tank of gas. Now people are averaging $50-$75 a tank. Not to mention malls had the bulk of the stores. Today you can shop most of your favorite store in less then 10 minutes from your house.

Crossroads, in its heyday, sported well over 100 stores, four anchor tenants, and to this day is barely 15 minutes from my front door, and I know for a fact I'm in a stone's throw of one of the highest disposable income demographic regions in the state. With two major interstates going by the property, and the nearest alternative "mass shopping center" in Moore a much greater hassle (IMHO) to access, it would seem to me the proximity argument mitigates in favor of some resuscitation of Crossroads.

Nobody knows what they future will bring for Crossroads. If the place was destined to take off, somebody would have jumped on it the day it went to county foreclosure auction with a starting bid of $9 Million. Nobody bid on it. That by itself tells me the future is not too bright for Crossroads. Besides why get in a heated discussion about this place. Nobody here owns it. Nobody here has the means to invest in it and return it to it's former glory.

I think it stands a better chance of becoming the new location of Old Paris Flea Market then becoming a mall. Besides ODOT will rebuilding the 240/35 interchange coming in the next few years. That alone will kill the remaining businesses at Crossroads.

I think it stands a better chance of becoming the new location of Old Paris Flea Market then becoming a mall. Besides ODOT will rebuilding the 240/35 interchange coming in the next few years. That alone will kill the remaining businesses at Crossroads.

The interchange rebuild is, at minimum, ten years away.

Don't have a link to the thread wherein this was discussed, all I remember was how depressed I was in reading it and realizing how many more accidents and injuries will take place in this area because of the long delay between now and the rebuild.

The interchange rebuild is, at minimum, ten years away.

Don't have a link to the thread wherein this was discussed, all I remember was how depressed I was in reading it and realizing how many more accidents and injuries will take place in this area because of the long delay between now and the rebuild.
it will start in 2015

GRADE, DRAIN & SURFACE
I-240: EB TO SB I-35 AT CROSSROADS INTERCHANGE (PHASE IA)
09032(17) FFY 2015
OKLAHOMA Div. 4 IS035 0.500 Mi. $4,000,000

then in 2018

INTERCHANGE
I-35: OVER THE I-240 JCT. (PHASE I) RECONSTR INTERCHG.
09032(05) FFY 2018
OKLAHOMA Div. 4 IS035 1.000 Mi. $14,233,431

I really can't stand when idiots buy something, get peoples' hopes up about said place, then just leave it be.

These goofballs at Raptor LLC obviously either had too much ambition, but were nothing but amateurs, or just wanted to buy it to make some small bank.

I called a store today, in that mall. They stated that 579 is closing today. Hot Topic is about to close. Gamestop there is about to close as well.

So in trying to keep people there and get new merchants, these guys sure aren't doing a good job, as three more stores are now leaving.

So unless they are allowing stores to close, so they can do renovations, the people who bought the mall are seeing their plans go straight down the crapper. Sucky owners are sucky.

I think this is about to go under major renovation, saw a bid for a multi-million dollar renovation, about time!

Where did you see this? As I stated above, 3 stores are about to move out. 579 closes today, Hot Topic and Gamestop. If stores are leaving why would there be renovation? Wouldn't that be taking a risk?

I really can't stand when idiots buy something, get peoples' hopes up about said place, then just leave it be.

These goofballs at Raptor LLC obviously either had too much ambition, but were nothing but amateurs, or just wanted to buy it to make some small bank.

I called a store today, in that mall. They stated that 579 is closing today. Hot Topic is about to close. Gamestop there is about to close as well.

So in trying to keep people there and get new merchants, these guys sure aren't doing a good job, as three more stores are now leaving.

So unless they are allowing stores to close, so they can do renovations, the people who bought the mall are seeing their plans go straight down the crapper. Sucky owners are sucky.

Won't be long now before it costs to much to keep the heat and air going.

I really can't stand when idiots buy something, get peoples' hopes up about said place, then just leave it be.

These goofballs at Raptor LLC obviously either had too much ambition, but were nothing but amateurs, or just wanted to buy it to make some small bank.

I called a store today, in that mall. They stated that 579 is closing today. Hot Topic is about to close. Gamestop there is about to close as well.

So in trying to keep people there and get new merchants, these guys sure aren't doing a good job, as three more stores are now leaving.

So unless they are allowing stores to close, so they can do renovations, the people who bought the mall are seeing their plans go straight down the crapper. Sucky owners are sucky.

I don't know if you're being serious or not, but you do understand that this is totally off of the OKC development radar? OKC itself (not Moore or MWC) is starting to get more serious about southside retail, and that includes accepting that Crossroads will never come back. I fully expect that Crossroads will be boarded up and just sit there, and if you think that's shocking, I know of a power plant on prime real estate up at Belle Isle circa 1980-2000 that I'd love to interest you in...

I understand the southside perspective because that's where I grew up, and when we weren't living in Houston, we were on the southside. All my family is on the southside. I remember going to that mall a lot back in the 90s, even when we were just coming up for family christmas holidays and so on. It's just a sign of the times.

There are much better opportunities that have opened up for this city in terms of retail, especially downtown, inner north side, and I can't say enough about the planned development around Nichols Hills right now. The SW 44th Street corridor has been identified as strategic for southside retail, and now the city is investing in infrastructure and aesthetic improvements along there (you may have noticed the new decorative intersections going in at 44th/Western and 44th/Walker). If you really want to see a strong southside, I would be excited about that in particular.

You have to understand that Crossroads was a bad project to begin with. It was just very indicative of a time (60s-70s) in which developers made a lot of bad mistakes. They were convinced that OKC would grow to the SE, not the NW. They were dead-wrong as it turns out. Furthermore, even if they had chosen the right location, Crossroads is old sprawl, and sprawl doesn't last very long. Crossroads would be getting replaced by something out at Draper right now if that was indeed the direction OKC would be growing in. This is where sustainability comes into play, we have to make sure that our development in the future stands the test of time, rather than answering the temporary needs of today. That's what city planning should be doing, but as we know, it doesn't always do its job all that well in this city, even today.

Just tear it down.

Actually, OKC grew to the *southwest*, not the southeast. Some of Oklahoma's highest per-capita income demographics are centered smack-dab in the SW 104th and Penn area and surrounding, oh, two or three-mile radius, which is just SW of Crossroads. Had they planned a few miles west, or even south, it would likely be thriving. Alas, hindsight.

About 44th - Given that its now heavily a medical campus due to the expanding presence of Integris, and that it also seems Sears is going to fold up tents just about any day now, I can't see SW 44th and Western becoming anything interesting at a retail level anytime soon. Head either direction from 44th and Western and its just not very appealing either direction. I remember when we used to frequent that location and the Sequoyah-Reding Shopping Center, with Streets, Dodson's Cafeteria, etc, etc. Not anymore.

There are much better opportunities that have opened up for this city in terms of retail, especially downtown, inner north side, and I can't say enough about the planned development around Nichols Hills right now. The SW 44th Street corridor has been identified as strategic for southside retail, and now the city is investing in infrastructure and aesthetic improvements along there (you may have noticed the new decorative intersections going in at 44th/Western and 44th/Walker). If you really want to see a strong southside, I would be excited about that in particular.

I live in SW OKC, and I haven't been anywhere near 44th and Western since I was a kid. New retail is pulling people south (to Moore and Norman) and southwest (Tri City), not north, so if the city really is pouring money into 44th street as a new "retail corridor," that's a project that's failed before it starts.



You have to understand that Crossroads was a bad project to begin with.


No it wasn't. The statement implies the mall was never successful, which simply isn't accurate.



...They were convinced that OKC would grow to the SE, not the NW. They were dead-wrong as it turns out. Furthermore, even if they had chosen the right location, Crossroads is old sprawl, and sprawl doesn't last very long. Crossroads would be getting replaced by something out at Draper right now if that was indeed the direction OKC would be growing in. This is where sustainability comes into play, we have to make sure that our development in the future stands the test of time, rather than answering the temporary needs of today. That's what city planning should be doing, but as we know, it doesn't always do its job all that well in this city, even today.

Don't know if I agree with all that. Crossroads was a very successful regional hallmark over its first 10-15 or so years of existence, which pushes up to about 1987. Developers could not have predicted the blight emerging *from the north and west* combined with the industrial presence that would make the area decreasingly attractive. As for it being "old sprawl," that logic would have precluded the redevelopment of Penn Square - heck, it was an open-air, 1960's throwback that had at best a modest future until someone came in with the audacious plan of expanding it and enclosing it. The mistake Crossroads developers did make, however, was misjudging growth to the SE rather than the S and SW, as I noted in another post.

The mistake Crossroads developers did make, however, was misjudging growth to the SE rather than the S and SW, as I noted in another post.

I don't see that as an issue in their problems. It takes 5 minutes to get there from the I44 - I240 junction and there is much more traffic in the I240 - I35 area.

I don't see that as an issue in their problems. It takes 5 minutes to get there from the I44 - I240 junction and there is much more traffic in the I240 - I35 area.

While I understand and agree that the real, practical distance to those areas is very short, I'm thinking in terms of their appeal to that area over the long haul. That is, Crossroads is unintentionally bounded to the north and west by industrial, nasty Valley Brook, and some rather distressed housing development(s). Had Crossroads been built, say, on the SW corner of that same interchange, or perhaps even, say, a mile or two farther south, they would *already* have been reaping the benefits being realized by the Moore shops, and not been nearly so affected by the above factors. As much as anything, Crossroads became paralyzed (right or wrong) in the eyes of many because of its location. I just think there's an irony in realizing a relatively slight move in its location could have yielded an extraordinary difference in its future. Given the development of other retail to the west (all along I-240) and down I-35 (into Moore), it was clear the developers had the right idea. They just didn't aim the location dart quite right when they started turning shovels.

Speculation, I realize. Obviously, we'll never know what might have happened.

While I understand and agree that the real, practical distance to those areas is very short, I'm thinking in terms of their appeal to that area over the long haul. That is, Crossroads is unintentionally bounded to the north and west by industrial, nasty Valley Brook, and some rather distressed housing development(s). Had Crossroads been built, say, on the SW corner of that same interchange, or perhaps even, say, a mile or two farther south, they would *already* have been reaping the benefits being realized by the Moore shops, and not been nearly so affected by the above factors. As much as anything, Crossroads became paralyzed (right or wrong) in the eyes of many because of its location. I just think there's an irony in realizing a relatively slight move in its location could have yielded an extraordinary difference in its future. Given the development of other retail to the west (all along I-240) and down I-35 (into Moore), it was clear the developers had the right idea. They just didn't aim the location dart quite right when they started turning shovels.

Speculation, I realize. Obviously, we'll never know what might have happened.

Yes it is speculation but, as I've mentioned before, I started shopping at Crossroad from the time it first opened. I never once gave any thought to the surrounding area when deciding to go there. I think that was a minimal influence on why it started failing.

There are some investment groups that are known as mall slumlords. They buy a mall with the notion of "If traffic returns, we will put a little money into it. If not we milk the cow until she is dry and try to market it to somebody/some sucker we can sell it to for a profit."

I think the right people could turn the place around however, there are much hotter properties in Oklahoma City right now.

Yes it is speculation but, as I've mentioned before, I started shopping at Crossroad from the time it first opened. I never once gave any thought to the surrounding area when deciding to go there. I think that was a minimal influence on why it started failing.

It isn't about what the area was *then*, it's about what it became over time. My family and I started shopping there when it first opened as well, and in 1974, the areas I mentioned above were in nowhere near the condition they are today, and Valley Brook didn't have quite the reputation it does now. Of *course* we gave no thought to the surrounding area. The gang influence that infiltrated SE OKC moved that way over a period of two-plus decades, into that very area as it aged and deteriorated. No way any developer short of having a crystal ball could have predicted that's how the region would unfold. My point is that the irony is that if they had built Crossroads one or two miles west, or south, and that surrounding environment doesn't "close in" on the mall the same way, if at all.

Generally, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one :) I remember numerous threads right here on this forum that tried to tell people that Crossroads, when it was at least still fighting for life, was a deathtrap and you'd get blown away by gangs in the parking lot (yes, I remember threads that had that very theme, and it was ridiculous).

Given the number of times I'd heard it described that way, the number of people who spread exaggerated rumors about it, all coupled with the reality of the gang presence in the mall, I just can't go along with the idea that the perception of Crossroads as a "gangbanger haven" wasn't a significant negative influence (among many) over time contributing to its demise.

Like I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree :)

Just goes to show that journalists here in OKC don't have a clue what to write stories about.

Had I been a journalist, I'd be knocking on the door of Raptor Properties LLC, and asking Mike Dillard what the deal is. Then I would prod and ask "so are you one of those buyers who bought and never truly intended on fixing it up? Did you really just want to make some profit?"

Fail Oklahoma journalists are fail.

Just goes to show that journalists here in OKC don't have a clue what to write stories about.

Had I been a journalist, I'd be knocking on the door of Raptor Properties LLC, and asking Mike Dillard what the deal is. Then I would prod and ask "so are you one of those buyers who bought and never truly intended on fixing it up? Did you really just want to make some profit?"

Fail Oklahoma journalists are fail.
While I disagree that Crossroads has a future as a mall, I do agree Oklahoma journalists (excluding meteorologists) are fail when it comes to investigative journalism.

Just goes to show that journalists here in OKC don't have a clue what to write stories about.

Had I been a journalist, I'd be knocking on the door of Raptor Properties LLC, and asking Mike Dillard what the deal is. Then I would prod and ask "so are you one of those buyers who bought and never truly intended on fixing it up? Did you really just want to make some profit?"

Fail Oklahoma journalists are fail.

Why don't you just do that anyways instead of making all journalists seem mentally handicapped (even if they are) because they don't report on the story you want? LOL

I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to know what's going on with the mall. Us citizens/fans of the mall want to stop being bounced around and teased, by people who say they care to fix something up, but really intend to do nothing.

Journalists and news sites were quick to break the news of its sale, why are they not asking when said TLC (as one of the owers on the news put it) is going to be initiated on the mall?

Wonder if someone will call crossroads mall as a unofficial okctalk reporter and get the scoop

I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to know what's going on with the mall. Us citizens/fans of the mall want to stop being bounced around and teased, by people who say they care to fix something up, but really intend to do nothing.

Journalists and news sites were quick to break the news of its sale, why are they not asking when said TLC (as one of the owers on the news put it) is going to be initiated on the mall?

I know you're not the only one because I grew up right down the street from it and my great-grandparents still live by there. My great-grandma is always asking me about it and I have a lot of friends in the area as well that ask about it so you're obviously not the only one who cares but the only ones that really care are the people in the general vicinity or the ones with sentimental ties to the mall such as myself since I grew up right by it and went there almost everyday with my great-grandparents.

It does seem like they're just toying with us and sitting on the mall trying to earn a few bucks but personally I highly doubt it will come back as a mall anyways, which is sad but sometimes reality hurts. I hope they can salvage it but I'm not going to cross my fingers until someone with actual plans buys it or these two goons move along with their "plans".

And for the record, I was just kidding with what I said too you which it seems like you knew but I'm just throwing that out there. I would like some.sort of report on it as well.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to know what's going on with the mall. Us citizens/fans of the mall want to stop being bounced around and teased, by people who say they care to fix something up, but really intend to do nothing.

Journalists and news sites were quick to break the news of its sale, why are they not asking when said TLC (as one of the owers on the news put it) is going to be initiated on the mall?

You have to realize...the probability that Crossroads will be a retail destination again (in any manner resembling its current state) is close to zero. Keeping it a traditional retail shopping mall is probably not a viable option for Dillard. I'm supposing that he is considering other options (if he's looking at any near-term plans).

Go do some research and look into dead malls that have deteriorated to the state in which Crossroads is in now. A site like Deadmalls.com is a good start. Very few (if any) ever managed to be revitalized with retail. The ones that were hadn't gone as far downhill as CRM has, or they had some significant advantage that CRM does not (ie location).

Look at this from a business perspective. Even if they decided to renovate the mall for retail use again, why would retailers want to locate there? There are so many other locations in the OKC area that either exist as retail, or would be more desirable than CRM to be built at. Enclosed malls aren't popular to build (or rebuild) anymore. There are quite a few still around that are doing well, but in recent years very few have been built. The trend is to build power centers (like in Moore or I-240), lifestyle centers, or urban retail.

Plus there's the fact that most of the place is vacant...kinda a "chicken and the egg" problem. It's ~80% empty and has no anchor stores. If you're building a fancy new shopping center from scratch (or if you have a popular one), it's feasible to attract good retailers. They probably get anchors first, then more small retailers. But of all areas in the OKC area that could be built, why would they choose somewhere like CRM that has a bad reputation and is in a less affluent part of town?

The best outcome I could see happening would be for it to be reused for office/public/community purposes in the same way as Shepherd Mall has been. I think that's the direction Heritage Park is heading too. LifeChurch recently opened in an anchor spot, even though the mall's empty (sears is still there i think). The owner of the old MW space (and now the mall itself) rented out the MW building to FEMA for a while, and supposedly wants to turn the mall into an office complex or similar as well.

Or reusing parts of the existing structure and rebuilding the site in a completely different form could be feasible. I know some people have said it would be a good site for TOD given its proximity to the railroad (whenever OK gets commuter rail service). There could be a street grid laid out on the existing site, and perhaps it could be built around some of the anchor buildings. Turning dead mall sites into "town centers"/TODs is becoming common in a lot of areas.

Still, something will probably happen at CRM soon. They're approaching the point where the cost to heat/cool the building and keep whatever staff (security, management, maintenance) they have remaining will exceed the rents they receive. Especially with its size, i can't imagine that climate control is cheap. At that point, i'd imagine they would make the decision to shutter the mall. Hopefully it won't come down to them just letting it sit around and decay for years.

Actually, OKC grew to the *southwest*, not the southeast. Some of Oklahoma's highest per-capita income demographics are centered smack-dab in the SW 104th and Penn area and surrounding, oh, two or three-mile radius, which is just SW of Crossroads. Had they planned a few miles west, or even south, it would likely be thriving. Alas, hindsight.

About 44th - Given that its now heavily a medical campus due to the expanding presence of Integris, and that it also seems Sears is going to fold up tents just about any day now, I can't see SW 44th and Western becoming anything interesting at a retail level anytime soon. Head either direction from 44th and Western and its just not very appealing either direction. I remember when we used to frequent that location and the Sequoyah-Reding Shopping Center, with Streets, Dodson's Cafeteria, etc, etc. Not anymore.

Not a sustainable viewpoint. If you relegate the entire inner southside to dilapidation you've lost the battle for the entire southside. It's almost counter-productive for OKC to invest in anything that orients that entire half of the city more toward Moore/Norman and less toward downtown. We need a strategic investment plan for revitalizing the southside, not a boilerplate one. 44th is also an opportunity to create unique ventures, which is important because we need to focus on long-term planning rather than short-term planning of new strip malls, expecting to abandon those and then expand even further out.

As for your own assessment of the southside, I agree that the medical presence is definitely a strength. I just don't see it as expanding very much, as the only tangible expansion that Integris as done in the last decade is a one-story cancer treatment center in the back of their campus closer to Grand Blvd. I also don't see Sears closing as inevitable, but rather hard to predict just because they've had pretty low traffic for as long as I can remember and have mysteriously remained in business so far. That massive Sears parking lot, even if they stay in business, is such a prime redevelopment opportunity.

Also consider that the city has already invested in new decorative intersections at Walker and Western, and new sidewalks and lighting between. 44th can become a smashing urban redevelopment target. It can revitalize the southside AND it can benefit people south of 240 by offering services and businesses that are unique, and it's still a lot closer than 19th in Moore or points further south.

At some point you absolutely have to start developing the southside in a way that's better for OKC, not Moore. The southside is NOT a lost cause, especially if you find the right opportunity. There are a lot of opportunities there, if you look at strategic available land, high traffic counts, already needed basic infrastructure investments, existing urban fabric, and how all of this can possibly come together in a dynamic redevelopment scheme. Then not only are you talking about building a strip mall with a Target and Best Buy on 134th (won't ever happen, both have existing stores way too close, but just to show an example), but then you're talking about those resources existing in a more urban, newer, fresher environment that injects a lot of vitality. One opportunity that I know a huge need exists for is a movie theater somewhere around Capitol Hill, which could serve as the anchor catalyst to get other major redevelopment going.

I also agree that there are a lot of places that would be failed projects even before conception. I'm not saying that these kinds of opportunities exist anywhere along 59th or Grand Boulevard. 44th is centrally located for the southside, has the strategic available land, very high traffic counts, and 44th is also a much nicer corridor than 59th, which will be a bigger problem in terms of dilapidation, and it may just be that the southside makes dramatic improvement while 59th remains a pocket of dilapidation (ala Lyrewood or 122nd/Penn). 44th is easily "nice enough" to work with and build on, and I believe that the southside will eventually come back if you look at the exploding population even in old areas, the rising economic profile of the Hispanic community in OKC, the proximity to Core2Shore and quick/easy commutes downtown, and especially the sheer economic opportunity caused by the southside being a retail black hole for the last 20 years.

There is simply no way that anything further out, more suburban has as much potential for success. I think even people with a suburban preference should be in favor of 44th over anything else on the southside. At some point you have to lay aside that suburban preference and recognize what is best for the southside, just as all of OKC has understood the importance of Downtown OKC in relation to the rest of the city. Granted, southsiders never subscribed to that point of view (it was the Hornet nest of "Not This MAPS" afterall) yet I think part of that is because the southside is too detached from downtown, and also because there's this "that doesn't help our side of town" mentality. So at some point, the southside has to especially be concerned with holistic planning. Something badly needs to be done for the entire southside.

Don't know if I agree with all that. Crossroads was a very successful regional hallmark over its first 10-15 or so years of existence, which pushes up to about 1987. Developers could not have predicted the blight emerging *from the north and west* combined with the industrial presence that would make the area decreasingly attractive. As for it being "old sprawl," that logic would have precluded the redevelopment of Penn Square - heck, it was an open-air, 1960's throwback that had at best a modest future until someone came in with the audacious plan of expanding it and enclosing it. The mistake Crossroads developers did make, however, was misjudging growth to the SE rather than the S and SW, as I noted in another post.

I don't think you can compare Crossroads in any way to Penn Square, which is a thriving operation today in spite of its building form. Indoor malls across the nation are dying. It's not just what I say, but it's also the proven trend, so much so that Dillard and JCP and most other anchors have said they won't be adding any more of those types of locations. Dillard is even trying to get out of the indoor malls as fast as they possibly can. Penn Square thrives today because it is surrounded on all sides by an upscale customer base and their location is seen as the "epicenter" of the northside.

Crossroads was very successful for its first 15 years of existence, absolutely no denying that. However what went wrong isn't just unique to Crossroads, but rather symptomatic of indoor malls all over the nation. I think today you can see Quail Springs beginning to whither away, being held up by its location on a major retail corridor where most everything else is new or redeveloped. Quail Springs doesn't have the upscale profile of Penn Square, so it's not unique. It won't have anything that allows it to compete with newer, better options that will inevitably emerge along its own corridor. In fact, the Quail Springs Village once-proposed between the mall and NW 150th might have been just that.

I'm also confused by your stressed point that the dilapidation, in relation to Crossroads Mall, is to the north and west. That's the southside. That was the original demographic that anchored Crossroads to begin with. The mall was built, almost adjoined at the hip (rather than in the heart, the head, etc) to compare geography and anatomy. I understand that you're trying to allude to a larger argument that the southside actually did not just lose out to the northside, but it's a hard argument to support. Virtually every possible elite service is on the northside. There is nothing that is south, but not north, not even in terms of the Hispanic community. Stretching further south, or redefining the southside continuously and just moving the boundaries further and further south, is simply not a logical, practical, nor honest solution. You also mention the Tri "Cities" and I agree there has been some home building in that direction, but come on--one Walmart and a Mexican restaurant do not qualify a legitimate building trend. Nor does it predict one.

INTEGRIS recently expanded/renovated the surgery department at Southwest Medical Center. They have also given the first floor a face lift and renovations were just completed on the 9th floor of the hospital. They are currently in the process of completing a new window installation and repainting the hospital tower. At one time they were considering by the apartment complex to the north of the hospital. Unfortunately the owner wanted an outrageous prices for the property.

At this time I think one or two things will likely happen if Sears closes. INTEGRIS or Walmart would likely buy the property. If INTEGRIS were to buy it the lot would like be as overflow/employee parking. This would allow the hospital to expand out closer to Western. The new space would likely be used as conference center space and for out patient procedures. The only thing I have ever heard of expansion wise is growing/remodeling ER and adding Intensive Care Units. The neuroscience and stroke units may also be expanded. The remaining inpatient side is about as big as it's going to get. Facelifts are about the only things on the board.

At this time I think one or two things will likely happen if Sears closes. INTEGRIS or Walmart would likely buy the property.

Why would Walmart have any interest in this property?

I don't think you can compare Crossroads in any way to Penn Square, which is a thriving operation today in spite of its building form. Indoor malls across the nation are dying. It's not just what I say, but it's also the proven trend, so much so that Dillard and JCP and most other anchors have said they won't be adding any more of those types of locations. Dillard is even trying to get out of the indoor malls as fast as they possibly can. Penn Square thrives today because it is surrounded on all sides by an upscale customer base and their location is seen as the "epicenter" of the northside.

Crossroads was very successful for its first 15 years of existence, absolutely no denying that. However what went wrong isn't just unique to Crossroads, but rather symptomatic of indoor malls all over the nation. I think today you can see Quail Springs beginning to whither away, being held up by its location on a major retail corridor where most everything else is new or redeveloped. Quail Springs doesn't have the upscale profile of Penn Square, so it's not unique. It won't have anything that allows it to compete with newer, better options that will inevitably emerge along its own corridor. In fact, the Quail Springs Village once-proposed between the mall and NW 150th might have been just that.

I'm also confused by your stressed point that the dilapidation, in relation to Crossroads Mall, is to the north and west. That's the southside. That was the original demographic that anchored Crossroads to begin with. The mall was built, almost adjoined at the hip (rather than in the heart, the head, etc) to compare geography and anatomy. I understand that you're trying to allude to a larger argument that the southside actually did not just lose out to the northside, but it's a hard argument to support. Virtually every possible elite service is on the northside. There is nothing that is south, but not north, not even in terms of the Hispanic community. Stretching further south, or redefining the southside continuously and just moving the boundaries further and further south, is simply not a logical, practical, nor honest solution. You also mention the Tri "Cities" and I agree there has been some home building in that direction, but come on--one Walmart and a Mexican restaurant do not qualify a legitimate building trend. Nor does it predict one.

Spartan, while I typically find myself on the opposite end of the opinion spectrum with you, I will offer that you typically lay out a sound basis for your opinion, but this time its simply shortsighted or, at a minimum, disingenuous.

Let me take the two most telling points individually


I'm also confused by your stressed point that the dilapidation, in relation to Crossroads Mall, is to the north and west. That's the southside. That was the original demographic that anchored Crossroads to begin with. The mall was built, almost adjoined at the hip (rather than in the heart, the head, etc) to compare geography and anatomy.

No, it isn't, Spartan, and if you'd join the rest of us in the year 2012, you'd realize how silly it sounds to pretend S. OKC is so tightly constrained. Spartan, you're too smart to try and argue this without people breaking out in laughter. If you truly believe that the business case for Crossroads was anchored north and west of its location, you're simply not dealing with reality. In fact, the notion contradicts your prior assertions that the developers misjudged OKC's growth to the SE - obviously Crossroads location was chosen for its proximity to where growth was going to occur. As you accurately pointed out, the growth wasn't that direction - it was to the south and west. But now you're saying they intended to remain viable solely due to their ties north and west? To Valley Brook and S. Shields? Seriously?

I realize this has been a bone of contention for you for some time, but the argument you make continues to pretend that south Oklahoma City doesn't really exist sound of about SW 59th or perhaps SW 74th. The reality is that a very vibrant, economically strong South OKC extends well past this boundary. Like it or not, those areas most certainly are part of the current South OKC. The southside most certainly redefines itself as the city grows, whether you like it or not. How could it be anything less than an honest assessment of the region than to recognize the growth south and southwest? The highest-income demographic in the city is centered around SW 104th and Penn, near Chatenay Square, Rivendell, Lakeridge Run, and Greenbriar, even as far east as the old Ranchwood Manor area.

We can put blinders on and pretend OKC is still constrained by a perimeter defined by 1960's population standards, but it just isn't reality. The folks in Moore and Norman are delighted to hear that some people believe S. OKC stops at SW 74th, because they're delighted to collect sales taxes from those presumably nonexistent folks living in South OKC who are heading to their cities to spend their monies on the retail they've built and are building.


(Re Tricities) I agree there has been some home building in that direction, but come on--one Walmart and a Mexican restaurant do not qualify a legitimate building trend

C'mon, Spartan, you can't be that myopic (or willingly naive?) about the development in the corridor between SW OKC and TriCities. Just as a matter of information, the Airport Trust is opening hotel and retail development along the SE region of their property on the west side of I-44 between (roughly) SW 89th and proceeding south to SW 134th. Saints just opened its new emergency hospital on the east side of I-44 near 134th. I've also been told that OKC leaders were delighted at the prospect of even more development along that corridor to keep south OKC residents from going to TriCity and spending their sales tax dollars there rather than in OKC. So even if you don't believe that's a vital corridor, a great many other people do - including those who believe there is money to be made.


I understand that you're trying to allude to a larger argument that the southside actually did not just lose out to the northside, but it's a hard argument to support. Virtually every possible elite service is on the northside.

Now, you're trying to manufacture an argument I did not make and use it to rationalize a point you want to make - I never said anything of the kind regarding any part of town "losing" to the northside. That smells conspicuously like the tired old northside elitism once prevalent among folks who believed nothing south of Reno should even be acknowledged to exist, and that's no way to plan a city, and I'd sure like to think you're not one of those people possessed of this unfortunate form of urban bigotry.

All of this ignores the change of hands of the mall from one bad management group to the next as well. Many different companies owned the place only to take the profits from them to use in other buildings. Simon was known to do that without hiding it. When Heritage was owned by the various companies, the folks that ran day-to-day operations on-site mentioned that was happening at Heritage, so they knew their job would be short-lived there.

Crossroads saw a complete lack of re-investment in the place. Had that happened, there still could have been some life in the place. New stuff was being built right next to it (because it still had drawing power) until about 10 years ago. The downfall was when Montgomery Ward went bankrupt. The timing lined up with the trend away from the indoor mall. Those that saw the writing on the wall before and had reinvested, were able to survive...ie Penn (by way of stealing from the others).

Demographics don't really have a ton to do with it. Look at Heritage Park. The EOC continues to grow with an ever increasing income....and just like the south side, it's growing out, thus expanding the "limit". But when the place is met with hurdle after hurdle that it's not allowed to overcome, then it's doomed.