Guys, calm down. Brian mentioned the status as Indian with no explanation as to why it was important. Mustang made a comment that it seemed to pander. Brian got testy but explained. Mustang didn't appreciate the testiness and felt like Brian set up the situation by not explaining on the front end. Brian got testy and says he doesn't have to connect it to anything if he doesn't want to - which brings it back to Mustang's original point that, out of context, it seems to be pandering. Or something like that. It would have made more sense if Brian had explained the Indian angle on the front end but he got around to it so it's all good. Right?

No, you did not say Native American. You directly said Indian.

The only difference is clarity thunder.


Guys, calm down. Brian mentioned the status as Indian with no explanation as to why it was important. Mustang made a comment that it seemed to pander. Brian got testy but explained. Mustang didn't appreciate the testiness and felt like Brian set up the situation by not explaining on the front end. Brian got testy and says he doesn't have to connect it to anything if he doesn't want to - which brings it back to Mustang's original point that, out of context, it seems to be pandering. Or something like that. It would have made more sense if Brian had explained the Indian angle on the front end but he got around to it so it's all good. Right?

Yep. Pretty much sums it up.

I'd say this thread also asks if the gem dealer was acting in the defense of others also? Is it reasonable to assume he may have been acting in his own self defense and in the defense of those whom he was speeding towards while armed an in the commission of a felony? The suspect vehicle struck at least one vehicle, disregarded signal lights and caused others to have to make evasive moves.

I'd say it's not at all the case that he was acting in the defense of others - that would be a very weak defense in court, in my opinion. Note that if he was firing toward a vehicle that was driving toward other vehicles, then he in turn was firing in the direction of these other vehicles and was, in a very real sense, an even greater threat to these bystanders than the original assailants were. This is evidenced by the fact that some of his bullets hit the intended target, but the majority of them did not, at least one striking an unintended target. Being a Porsche, a small vehicle, this bullet came within perhaps a mere three feet from striking the driver.

He was firing out of revenge, not defense. I can't say I wouldn't do the same - I would want to kill these guys if I were in this position. But when the threat is gone, it's not technically self defense, and when you're firing out of rage (undoubtedly the dominant motivation at play in this act), you are much more of a threat to the survival of others who aren't involved than you are an aid to your own survival.

Case ended - as most do in Oklahoma County (and every other county) - with a plea deal. Just prior to jury selection the proverbial game of 'Judicial Chicken' resulted in a last second plea offer from the state; 5-years deferred to include no carrying of a firearm in the state of Oklahoma. This was a much better deal than had previously been offered, which was a guilty plea, suspended sentence, criminal record and permanent loss of C&C license. The defendant lives in Dallas and does only about 15% of his business in Oklahoma and the deferment will not effect his C&C license in Texas and those states with reciprocity (except Oklahoma). After 5 years he's free to carry again in Oklahoma and will not have a conviction or record. I credit the deal to an abundance of fairness from DA Prater (who asked to speak directly to the defendant prior to making the offer), the fact the defense team was ready and willing to start the trial and had secured firearms professionals from H&H to testify for the defense, and FBI records that showed in many circumstances when jewelry reps are robbed the robbers do indeed kill the salesman and in several cases returned and killed the salesman just moments after initially leaving.

That seems a very fair resolution under the circumstances. In particular the fact that he is rarely here anyway. Right decent call by DA Prater.

I was particularly impressed with his request to speak to the defendant (in mine and his lawyer's presence) in private (outside the courtroom) to get an understanding for his profession and him personally. In general I think when you choose to carry a weapon and use it in public, even in self defense, you are taking on the liability for each and every bullet fired. This is why I do not carry a gun even with CLEET training.

That said, this defendant was facing something you and I most likely never will - an organized effort by a highly dangerous Columbian gang that uses superior numbers, firepower and the element of surprise to often kill to get what they want - even when in many cases the valuables are offered up with no resistance.

After reading all the files I did from the FBI's 'Jewelry and Gem Task Force,' I'm very surprised these gangs have not been featured more prominently in the news or evening news features.

The first thing he is guilty of is stupidity! What the heck is he doing carrying around $400K of gems without some kind of escort or bodyguard? Especially after he felt that he was being followed, he should have hired a guard of some kind.

I feel that after the threat was over and the suspects were fleeing the scene, he was no longer in a position to fire at them. Even Police Officers are questioned about shooting at supects fleeing from a felony property crime. Although armed robbery kind of crosses over from a property crime to a violent crime.

The first thing he is guilty of is stupidity! What the heck is he doing carrying around $400K of gems without some kind of escort or bodyguard? Especially after he felt that he was being followed, he should have hired a guard of some kind.

I feel that after the threat was over and the suspects were fleeing the scene, he was no longer in a position to fire at them. Even Police Officers are questioned about shooting at supects fleeing from a felony property crime. Although armed robbery kind of crosses over from a property crime to a violent crime.

Actually, not stupid at all if you're going to engage in this business. We had a stack of files that showed gem dealers, like the defendant, were actually safer by not having any guards with them. In virtually every case where they had an armed guard, when robbed they were both immediately killed or greeted with gunfire instead of simply robbed. Without a guard you had about a 50/50 chance of not being killed. The most disturbing part was the fact the robbers would often leave and then return and kill the salesman at the scene only moments later. I have no idea what the purpose of that is and there was no indication why in the FBI records.

I was also surprised at the number of gem dealers that are walking around with hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars on them. This is very typical in NYC and other places.

The dealers best defense is no body guard and nothing that draws attention to themselves. This defendant would drive an older Buick and wear slacks and a golf shirt with a jacket to conceal his weapon. You make no appointments in advance and service several states randomly. He even has his phone and car regularly checked for hidden GPS device. Several salesmen were tracked this way in previous robberies. Some police files showed were gang members would watch a specific jewelry store all day, every day for a month or more waiting for a particular salesman to come by if they knew what he looked like.

OCPD reports show they think the defendant was targeted from Texas and followed for two days and the plan all along was to rob him in OKC. They also believe at least one other vehicle was accompanying the robbers (a light colored Cadillac). There could be a TV movie here with all the info we got.

Also, in several cases

Case ended - as most do in Oklahoma County (and every other county) - with a plea deal. Just prior to jury selection the proverbial game of 'Judicial Chicken' resulted in a last second plea offer from the state; 5-years deferred to include no carrying of a firearm in the state of Oklahoma. This was a much better deal than had previously been offered, which was a guilty plea, suspended sentence, criminal record and permanent loss of C&C license. The defendant lives in Dallas and does only about 15% of his business in Oklahoma and the deferment will not effect his C&C license in Texas and those states with reciprocity (except Oklahoma). After 5 years he's free to carry again in Oklahoma and will not have a conviction or record. I credit the deal to an abundance of fairness from DA Prater (who asked to speak directly to the defendant prior to making the offer), the fact the defense team was ready and willing to start the trial and had secured firearms professionals from H&H to testify for the defense, and FBI records that showed in many circumstances when jewelry reps are robbed the robbers do indeed kill the salesman and in several cases returned and killed the salesman just moments after initially leaving.

Sounds reasonable to me.

... The most disturbing part was the fact the robbers would often leave and then return and kill the salesman at the scene only moments later. I have no idea what the purpose of that is and there was no indication why in the FBI records. ...

A possibility, i.e., maybe just a wag, maybe not.

If the attackers present as only interested in securing the gems and departing, some potential exists for the gems to be given up more quietly and with less resistance, as the courier is somewhat focused on hoping to not lose his life along with the gems. Then, feeling as though a bullet or blade was literally dodged when it seems life has been spared, one can concurrently have emotions rise up and situational awareness drop lower. In short, the act of coming back for the kill can make for a cleaner, faster and quieter robbery and kill.

.oO(I don't know why my mind goes where it goes at times, but it sure can result in some odd trips.)Oo.

Sounds like he will need personal security next time he comes to OKC ;)