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Thanks for listening! I wouldn't have posted had I seen your comments first. Yes, I am not alarmed about this schedule issue. Believe me, it could have been worse. Right now, the chosen course does not affect Federal supplemental fund applications. Nor do I think that this 2-year "delay" on a "Phase 2" will be carried through if it ends up being obvious that a different schedule saves taxpayer funds.

Not to say that people shouldn't be upset with how it was brought about, but the actual selection probably is being debated a bit dramatically.

I enjoy listening, thanks for the reassurance!

It IS being handled too dramatically...

I enjoy listening, thanks for the reassurance!

It IS being handled too dramatically...

Welcome to OKC Talk. That's the specialty here.

You act as though the Council has decided to build things that were not even in MAPS3, the sidewalks and Senior Welness Centers will still be built, the size of the CC was known from the start. (if you remove the arena footage from the Cox Center, the new CC will actually have MORE convention space).

It is unconscionable that the Mayor and Council members (who promised that the Convention Center would be the last MAPS project built) has betrayed us voters. I doubt there will be any money left to build sidewalks and senior swim centers after the Convention Center is built. The real reason they did this is that there isn't enough money to do all the projects and, if put off until last, the Convention Center would likely have to be built using supplemental funds that we voters would not approve. Maybe in 12 years, we voters will see a need for a new convention center, but NOT NOW.

As I said earlier, I hope that the City Council polls we OKC voters and decides to reverse its decision. Remember, support for MAPS is tenuous and a lot of us voters who supported MAPS 3 will be more than happy to vote for an initiative petition to end MAPS 3 early if the Convention Center isn't postponed to be the last MAPS 3 project built.

Almost every neighborhood in the city needs sidewalks except Heritage Hills, who got new sidewalks from a bond issue promising sidewalks for the whole city. Heritage Hills already HAD sidewalks on both sides of the street. The Mayor and City Council talks with forked tongues.

It's not drama for drama's sake and it's not just the timeline. It's the way so much of it has been handled. It's what Doug originally posted about, it's about the politics of location, it's about the Mayor acting like he's serving in a 'strong mayor' form of government, it's about rushed OCURA meetings and political OCURA decisions...I could go on and on. It's things like today that bring the anger out in some of us. It's one of those straws that broke the camel's back moments. So, it's about much more than the timeline that everybody keeps mentioning (though it IS important). The treatment of Dr. Shadid with the deferment issue almost appears like a slap in the face to remind him who pulls the strings in this town.

Anybody who dares to take a strong stand on issues here at this board gets accused of being "dramatic." That's not fair or intellectually honest.

Please. I remember the mayor saying the convention center would probably be the last thing built. But IIRC it was a statement of belief, not a promise. We're actually ahead of anticipated collections so hopefully there will be enough money for everything. It's certainly too early for weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I agree that the response to Dr. Shadid's request for deferral, if indeed they are customarily approved, was a slap in the face.

I think that "strong statements" are frequently veiled innuendos of back room deals that are unsupported by anything other than "Thats the way it used to be done so it must be going on today." Obviously people who have given their time and money to the city are heard when they speak. I suspect that happens in every city and town across the globe. Is it right? Thomas Jefferson would have said it is. Andrew Jackson would have disagreed. Again, it's all about philosophy.

I was not one of the people wanting the convention center moved up. I've spoken about why I think it should be last or close to the end. Does that mean I'm going to take my toys and go home? An initiative petition to end MAPS early if the convention center is not built last????? Let's be grownups here. Can we chill a little bit and see how this all turns out?

This is laughable. Nothing has changed, all of the proposed and voted on items will be built, OKC will continue to prosper, and all of the nay sayers will join the supporters in enjoying the success of MAPS3.

Now that IS laughable! Go ahead and list a single item that was listed on the Ballot or in the Ordinance that was "voted on". Patiently waiting your reply.

Will give you some help, here is the list:

MAPS 3 never would have passed unless our city leaders promised the new Convention Center would be the last project built. They had to emphasize that at the end of MAPS 3 our Cox Center would be nearly 50 years old before they garnered enough voter support to pass MAPS 3. By reneging on this "promise", they have lost my support. Remember we are collecting the penny sales tax first before projects are built, and if we voters have the opportunity, we will likely end the sales tax due to broken promises. If an initiative petition is put on the ballot to end MAPS 3 collection, the City Council may lose the whole uncompleted MAPS 3 projects, even if the initiative petition elicits promises from the Council to reverse its decision and put the Convention Center project at the end. We voters don't like it when our leaders lie to us.

JOHN, do you have a link to that promise by the mayor or the city, prior to the election, that the convention center would be built last? I'm looking for it and cannot find it.

MAPS 3 never would have passed unless our city leaders promised the new Convention Center would be the last project built. They had to emphasize that at the end of MAPS 3 our Cox Center would be nearly 50 years old before they garnered enough voter support to pass MAPS 3. By reneging on this "promise", they have lost my support. Remember we are collecting the penny sales tax first before projects are built, and if we voters have the opportunity, we will likely end the sales tax due to broken promises. If an initiative petition is put on the ballot to end MAPS 3 collection, the City Council may lose the whole uncompleted MAPS 3 projects, even if the initiative petition elicits promises from the Council to reverse its decision and put the Convention Center project at the end. We voters don't like it when our leaders lie to us.

That's a completely unsupportable assertion. It certainly had no influence on my vote. I would have voted yes no matter what kind of timeline was proposed. Maybe "We voters" don't like it but you hardly speak for everyone. I apologize if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're were never really a true MAP3 supporter.

I often wonder how many of the most vociferous MAPS 3 critics actually voted FOR it. If you voted against it there would be a strong impetus to try and find fault with it. We all like to back the winning horse.

I voiced some criticism of the lack of specificity in MAPS3, but ultimately posted that I was going to vote "Yes" and that's exactly what I did.
Fast forward two years and it's that lack of specificity that is causing so much turmoil on several fronts.

I'm still waiting for the video of yesterday's council meeting to be available on-line, but until then, I've expressed myself here: http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2011/07/on-emperors-city-councils-new-clothes.html ... after the 7/5 video is available, I will show the speakers comparative remarks on 5/31 and 7/5, side by side. I would also note that Pete White and Skip Kelly were not only honorable during the 7/5 council meeting, they should receive valor awards for their remarks and positions taken, in my opinion. A Gazette opinion piece (http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/article-12287-overcoming-momentum%E2%80%99s-legacy.html) that I'd written before the 7/5 council meeting is at the link just shown, but the events of July 5 seem to have overtaken the history of that article.

In this, please understand that I'm not talking about the substance of what council decided to do on July 5 ... I am talking about the procedure and I am talking about the disrespect that the majority displayed to other council members on that day. July 5, 2011, should be marked as a black day in city council history.

That's a completely unsupportable assertion. It certainly had no influence on my vote. I would have voted yes no matter what kind of timeline was proposed. Maybe "We voters" don't like it but you hardly speak for everyone. I apologize if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're were never really a true MAP3 supporter.

I voted for all 3 MAPS programs and for the refurbishing of the OKC arena. However, I did hold my nose when I voted for a new Convention Center as part of MAPS 3, but I thought the good projects outweighed the one project OKC did not need. You must remember all the ads supporting MAPS 3 that cost millions of dollars. I also remember Mayor Mick saying that the Convention Center would be the last project built & by that time the Cox Center would be nearly 50 years old. If MAPS 3 wasn't on shaky grounds being passed, why would so many millions of dollars needed to be spent on advertising. Our firefighters and police opposed passage but MAPS 3 owes its passage to whomever gave the OKC Chamber of Commerce the millions used on TV and radio ads. I not only voted for MAPS 3, but wrote on a lot of NEWSOK.com article message blogs supporting MAPS.

I am really disturbed that the projects closest to my heart may not be realized at all, since the new convention center funding may overrun its costs and usurp all the moneys designated to Senior Wellness Swim Centers and succeeding projects. The promise of sidewalks for neighborhoods without them has already been broken. This same promise was made to help pass the last OKC bond issue and no new sidewalks were ever built in neighborhoods without them. The city only re-built sidewalks in Heritage Hills which already had sidewalks on both sides of the street.

NewsOK.com said today "The city expects to build 75 miles of sidewalks near publicly used facilities. The plan for the location of the sidewalks is still under development. They will be constructed in two phases beginning next year." This sounds to me like bike paths & sidewalks at Draper Lake and no sidewalks for neighborhoods built without them since they're only planning to spend only $10 million while spending $40 million on trails. We need sidewalks now in most OKC neighborhoods, at least on one side of the street.

http://newsok.com/maps-3-timeline-at-a-glance/article/3583051#ixzz1RJr14Jlj

Now that IS laughable! Go ahead and list a single item that was listed on the Ballot or in the Ordinance that was "voted on". Patiently waiting your reply.

Will give you some help, here is the list:

It's obvious your just angry (for whatever reason), and will not agree wityh anything this Mayor or Council do, just keep hating OKC and I'll save my breath for someone with their eyes and ears open.

It is unconscionable that the Mayor and Council members (who promised that the Convention Center would be the last MAPS project built) has betrayed us voters. I doubt there will be any money left to build sidewalks and senior swim centers after the Convention Center is built. The real reason they did this is that there isn't enough money to do all the projects and, if put off until last, the Convention Center would likely have to be built using supplemental funds that we voters would not approve. Maybe in 12 years, we voters will see a need for a new convention center, but NOT NOW.

As I said earlier, I hope that the City Council polls we OKC voters and decides to reverse its decision. Remember, support for MAPS is tenuous and a lot of us voters who supported MAPS 3 will be more than happy to vote for an initiative petition to end MAPS 3 early if the Convention Center isn't postponed to be the last MAPS 3 project built.

Almost every neighborhood in the city needs sidewalks except Heritage Hills, who got new sidewalks from a bond issue promising sidewalks for the whole city. Heritage Hills already HAD sidewalks on both sides of the street. The Mayor and City Council talks with forked tongues.

No such promise was ever made!!!

It makes sense to build reveune producing projects first (CC and State Fair), can only serve to pump more tax dollars into the OKC coffers.

If we are actually able to attract conventions that are bigger than the ones we get now it might make sense. I think it's interesting that no one has ever said we are turning away bigger conventions and that people are clamoring to come here. And, what's left out of that equation is the fact that quality of life projects help us attract and/or keep residents. In the long run, that's probably a bigger financial boon. It's every day tax dollars that are spent in our city, not just three days to one week. It's sales tax and property tax, spending on groceries and clothing, cars, food, recreation, etc.

Timeline:

http://newsok.com/maps-3-timeline-at-a-glance/article/3583051

If someone has one that is specific to the phases of the park development please post it.

I read recently the pedestrian bridge is supposed to start next month but the timeline above says 2013 for start of the park. Maybe that's not considered part of the park project.

It is unconscionable that the Mayor and Council members (who promised that the Convention Center would be the last MAPS project built) has betrayed us voters. I doubt there will be any money left to build sidewalks and senior swim centers after the Convention Center is built. The real reason they did this is that there isn't enough money to do all the projects and, if put off until last, the Convention Center would likely have to be built using supplemental funds that we voters would not approve. Maybe in 12 years, we voters will see a need for a new convention center, but NOT NOW.

As I said earlier, I hope that the City Council polls we OKC voters and decides to reverse its decision. Remember, support for MAPS is tenuous and a lot of us voters who supported MAPS 3 will be more than happy to vote for an initiative petition to end MAPS 3 early if the Convention Center isn't postponed to be the last MAPS 3 project built.

Almost every neighborhood in the city needs sidewalks except Heritage Hills, who got new sidewalks from a bond issue promising sidewalks for the whole city. Heritage Hills already HAD sidewalks on both sides of the street. The Mayor and City Council talks with forked tongues.


the 2007 bond issue is ongoing .. for the next 6years ... miles and miles of sidewalks are in that bond issue ... and miles and miles more in maps 3 ..

lots of people are going to get get sidewalks .. in the new program the sidewalks are all finished before construction of the CC even starts ..

also of note is that maps 3 budgets are built much better than the maps 1 budgets were .. all have contengency dollars .... and on top of that we are 10% over projections in the maps 3 tax

Timeline:

http://newsok.com/maps-3-timeline-at-a-glance/article/3583051

If someone has one that is specific to the phases of the park development please post it.

I read recently the pedestrian bridge is supposed to start next month but the timeline above says 2013 for start of the park. Maybe that's not considered part of the park project.
'
the bridge is a co ODOT/okc project and is form ODOT and 2007 go bond funds ... it is not a maps3 project and it needs/will be completed before the new I40 is opened in 2012

the 2007 bond issue is ongoing .. for the next 6years ... miles and miles of sidewalks are in that bond issue ... and miles and miles more in maps 3 ..

lots of people are going to get get sidewalks .. in the new program the sidewalks are all finished before construction of the CC even starts ..

also of note is that maps 3 budgets are built much better than the maps 1 budgets were .. all have contengency dollars .... and on top of that we are 10% over projections in the maps 3 tax

I hope you're right. It just seems like the 2007 bond issue promising new sidewalks should have already started building sidewalks in neighborhoods without any. I haven't yet seen or heard of any plans to build these promised sidewalks. All I have heard is that discretionary funds from that bond issue were used to buy land for our new Central Park and I've assumed those funds came from our planned sidewalks. If there are plans for new sidewalks (from the bond issue), where are the plans and timetables for the construction? I also assume that the 75 miles of MAPS 3 sidewalks "near publicly used facilities" have nothing to do with the promised neighborhood sidewalks.

Hopefully I will find out soon that my neighborhood will get sidewalks by 2015 and that 4 Senior Wellness Swim Centers will be built before I'm 65 (3 years from now) instead of perhaps starting in 2021 --if there are left over funds after building the new Convention Center. I'm diabetic and I don't know if I can wait to age 72 or later to start using the Wellness Centers. I also don't know if the city will make it affordable for Seniors who depend on Social Security as their sole income to use the Wellness Centers.

I still believe that Mayor Mick is lying if he says he didn't lead Oklahoma City voters to believe that the Convention Center would be the last MAPS project built and that promise was made to facilitate the passage of MAPS 3. This failed promise and his insistence that we "obligated" ourselves to OG&E to build a new substation is why this term as mayor is looking like he's lost his bearings. I thank him for his efforts to land the Thunder, but he has made two colossal errors lately.

Well said. You left out one power player up until 1963: Robert S. Kerr. The Dean of Oklahoma City. He kept an opulent king's chamber in downtown OKC even while Governor and U.S. Senator where he "received" his visitors. Now his great-nephew, Aubrey McClendon, has built his kingdom in an entire neighborhood.The more things change, the more they stay the same.

This whole thread reminds me of a small informal luncheon I attended back in 1955, at the country place of one Waco Turner, oilman, west of Henryetta. I was there as the chauffeur of my boss, John Easley, owner of the Daily Ardmoreite newspaper. Others around the table included Raymond Gary and Carl Albert. The purpose of the gathering was to establish the route for the then-proposed I35 highway. The group decided to bypass Pauls Valley, Wynnewood, and Marietta, but to pass through the edges of Purcell and Ardmore.

It wasn't quite a smoke-filled room, but the result was the same. And it was all "off the record" at the time.

The food wasn't bad, either!

I hope you're right. It just seems like the 2007 bond issue promising new sidewalks should have already started building sidewalks in neighborhoods without any. I haven't yet seen or heard of any plans to build these promised sidewalks. All I have heard is that discretionary funds from that bond issue were used to buy land for our new Central Park and I've assumed those funds came from our planned sidewalks. If there are plans for new sidewalks (from the bond issue), where are the plans and timetables for the construction? I also assume that the 75 miles of MAPS 3 sidewalks "near publicly used facilities" have nothing to do with the promised neighborhood sidewalks.

Hopefully I will find out soon that my neighborhood will get sidewalks by 2015 and that 4 Senior Wellness Swim Centers will be built before I'm 65 (3 years from now) instead of perhaps starting in 2021 --if there are left over funds after building the new Convention Center. I'm diabetic and I don't know if I can wait to age 72 or later to start using the Wellness Centers. I also don't know if the city will make it affordable for Seniors who depend on Social Security as their sole income to use the Wellness Centers.

I still believe that Mayor Mick is lying if he says he didn't lead Oklahoma City voters to believe that the Convention Center would be the last MAPS project built and that promise was made to facilitate the passage of MAPS 3. This failed promise and his insistence that we "obligated" ourselves to OG&E to build a new substation is why this term as mayor is looking like he's lost his bearings. I thank him for his efforts to land the Thunder, but he has made two colossal errors lately.

I saw sidewalks going in somewhere just west of May Ave recently, although I don't remember exactly where. They just put sidewalks in on Oklahoma south of 10th street when they redid the road. I believe any new development is required to have sidewalks and any time a street is repaired sidewalks will be installed. Since we have massive city sprawl and since there was no attempt to put in sidewalks for years, this will end up being a long-term project, I suspect.

There will be one Senior Wellness Center built by the time you are 65. The timeline we've been given by the DOK is incomplete. According to it, they will build one every 2.5 years so that the fourth is finished by 2021. What was said in Council is that they still haven't decided exactly what needs to go in the Senior Wellness Centers and it may be that different quadrants of the city will have a different type of center, based on demographics. They implied that if they get a model for the Centers that they think is workable and "learn how to do it" that the centers could be finished early. I cannot imagine the senior centers will charge, or if they do, that the charge will be anything but nominal. The city is working to find partners to help with the operations of the centers and I believe several local hospitals are interested. I feel quite sure they will be free or very affordable.

I don't believe that Mayor Cornett made his statement about the timing of the convention center pre-MAPS vote. I think it was afterwards. He's the only one I heard say it. But, you might remember that he also said it would be built east of the park. He clearly doesn't have the ability to force the council and the committees to do what he wants, so anything he says should be considered his opinion and doesn't hold force of law. I attended the MAPs convention center committee meeting where the timeline and location of the CC were discussed and have been to most of the City Council meetings recently. He has only one vote on Council and none in the committees, which needs to be remembered when we listen to him.

I saw sidewalks going in somewhere just west of May Ave recently, although I don't remember exactly where. They just put sidewalks in on Oklahoma south of 10th street when they redid the road. I believe any new development is required to have sidewalks and any time a street is repaired sidewalks will be installed.The city just recently completed the widening of NW 122 between Rockwell and Council Road to four lanes. One of the final steps of the project was to pour a concrete sidewalk for the entire mile, on the north side of the street. Not one single-family residence is located there, just one apartment complex near Rockwell, a strip mall at Rockwell, and the entrance to a residential development that's off of the street.

But there's a sidewalk, and the curb cut for wheelchair use at the Council Road end no longer leads to a grassy field (unlike the similar cuts at Memorial and Rockwell).

For what it's worth, I understand the concern being voiced in this thread, and while there are those on this site who do have a flair for the dramatic, I'm not entirely sure I understand the decision not to defer the decision for two weeks to allow full council participation. I also sense that part of the debate I'm hearing in this thread is a reaction to Mayor Mick Cornett's tendency the past couple of years to make promises in regard to city actions and policy that couldn't be made without first getting a majority vote by n the city council. I'm not saying it's good or bad; rather, he was taking a stance as a "strong mayor" I didn't witness with Mayors Norick or Humphreys in what is, and has been for decades, a city manager and not a strong mayor form of government.

Has there been one person that agrees with the city council besides the chosen few? Everyone I have talked to is furious over the city council moving transit to the back and the convention center up. Few people wanted the convention center!

I understand the concern too. I'm not sure it would have changed anything to defer the vote two weeks, as likely Councilwoman Salyer would have voted one way and Councilman Shadid another. But, it did deprive him of a forum for his views and, if it has always been the policy in the past to defer votes at the request of a councilperson (haven't gotten to use a word this awkward since I went to the U of Michigan and we had "pompompersons" who were all decidedly female), then it smells of lack of common courtesy to do otherwise, at the very least. There has, however, behind the scenes been pressure to get this thing started, as no RFPs or contracts could be in the works until there was a formal timeline. While I would like to say that in the grand scheme of things two weeks isn't much, people are anxious to get the MAPS ball rolling.

And Steve, I think you're right. My perception of Mayor Cornett was that he was a person with enough political clout to achieve his goals, so when he spoke I assumed that's the way it would be. The last few months have certainly given a different slant to my perception of the mayor's job.

I would like to say, in defense of many of the council members who didn't vote as we might have wished yesterday, that for the most part they are as a group very thoughtful for the well-being of their constituents. At least that is what I have observed.

Soonerguru, it's interesting that now they are bullies, yet when they are pushing their Employees around that's OK!

At the end of the day, the mayor is one of nine votes. That's it. He's a council member elected by the city at large.

Steve (or anyone), do you know when it was that the mayor got to vote (unless there was a tie)? Back in the days of Mayor James Norick, he didn't vote unless there was a tie.

The video of yesterday's city council meeting is still not up. Just sayin' ...

the 2007 bond issue is ongoing .. for the next 6years ... miles and miles of sidewalks are in that bond issue ... and miles and miles more in maps 3 ..

lots of people are going to get get sidewalks .. in the new program the sidewalks are all finished before construction of the CC even starts ..

also of note is that maps 3 budgets are built much better than the maps 1 budgets were .. all have contengency dollars .... and on top of that we are 10% over projections in the maps 3 tax

Are you sure about that? I was hoping that was the case as it would explain why they only budgeted 2.2% "extra" when the City has an average of going 8% over with projects (47.75% if you are talking MAPS projects). But a couple of projects indicate that it isn't the case.

Urban has stated that the Transit budget is mid range for those systems. So it doesn't look like there is any pad built in there.

Then there is the issue of the Trails, due to the $40MM "mistake" where someone did the math wrong and left out 60 miles of trails) and the increase in oil/asphalt prices (if they prices hold steady), we are going to get 12 fewer miles than the 57 miles specifically stated).

Senior Aquatic Centers seems the plan all along has been to if they go over budget, they just build fewer of them.

While being 10% over projections is excellent news, it will probably even itself out over the long term. The Mayor stated that with MAPS 4 Kids, projections came within $2MM of projections (not clear if it was over or under). Not complaining on that, would be thrilled if they can get spending projections within the same level of long range accuracy that they have on the Revenue side. Where the City ran into problems with the Ford/NBA tax was it was a short term (15 month) that came at a bad time.

No such promise was ever made!!!

RC is right (at least partially). I am not aware of the Council making any such promise. It may have been the understanding of some COuncil members behind closed doors that the C.C. would come last, but I don't ever recall it being made public pre-vote.

On the other side, the Mayor didn't "promise" it either. We threw it out there a couple of times and mentioned it was his "preference" that it "be staged last". The only other timeline elements I recall were that the rational to get the Park/Boulevard open at the same time as it will serve as the "gateways" into downtown (along the boundaries of the Park from the relocated I-40). Especially important if they are going to be driving though all of the Council designated "blight", it needs to be removed and improved as soon as possible. On that point they seem to be doing some back peddling when it comes to the Park, placing the emphasis on the C.C. end (where it was also placed when the Mayor's "preferred", not mandated, Core to Shore site was the "placeholder". The Mayor called the Park/Boulevard as being critical and the lynchpins to Core to Shore. Think he even stated without it Downtown would "grind to a halt" without them. Will look to see if I can dig up the exact quote.

It's obvious your just angry (for whatever reason), and will not agree wityh anything this Mayor or Council do, just keep hating OKC and I'll save my breath for someone with their eyes and ears open.

Of course I will support and sing the Mayor & Council praises when I notice something they do right. I admit that seems to be few and far between. When I saw the design for the Skydancer Bridge my first response was WOW (and posted it). Then along the way I was still saying WOW, but not in a good way to the the astronomical cost increase of 400% (even MAPS projects weren't THAT far off).

My eyes and ears are open to any and all such input (noticed you didn't bother to back up your assertion), so if not for me, do it for the benefit of those that are inline with your, "the City can do no wrong" campaign.

If we are actually able to attract conventions that are bigger than the ones we get now it might make sense. I think it's interesting that no one has ever said we are turning away bigger conventions and that people are clamoring to come here. And, what's left out of that equation is the fact that quality of life projects help us attract and/or keep residents. In the long run, that's probably a bigger financial boon. It's every day tax dollars that are spent in our city, not just three days to one week. It's sales tax and property tax, spending on groceries and clothing, cars, food, recreation, etc.

Did you catch the latest spin the Chamber is trying to put on the Convention Center?
http://www.newsok.com/convention-center-would-enhance-citys-quality-of-life/article/3582008?custom_click=headlines_widget
Claiming it IS a Quaility of Life issue? Funny how it didn't come up during the campaign, it was all "economic impact", increasing revenue by a factor of 3 etc etc. In the opinion piece he stated that 2/3rd of the attendees to events at the C.C. are locals and only 1/3 are out of area, NEW money (which is one reason I was in favor of the C.C., it could only be a god thing). Love to see how the math works out but quick-n-dirty style seems that for a 3-fold increase in revenue it would require a 900% increase in out of area conventions (since it can be presumed that local attendees would remain level), they are already in the largest facility we have so unless they are going out of state, they won't be adding much to it).

The cost increases on Skydance, Larry, occurred when ODOT insisted it be made strong enough to support truck traffic. Yes, this is your government. They want to make sure a pedestrian bridge can carry heavy trucks. They're here to help. They're also the same folks who decided the dancing in fountains in Bricktown had to meet public swimming pool codes. They're here to help.
By the way, they've got no apparent interest in transient roofing companies ripping people off, or in metal recycling yards paying out cash for mysteriously "scrapped" electric substation materials, etc., etc....

The cost increases on Skydance, Larry, occurred when ODOT insisted it be made strong enough to support truck traffic. Yes, this is your government. They want to make sure a pedestrian bridge can carry heavy trucks. They're here to help. They're also the same folks who decided the dancing in fountains in Bricktown had to meet public swimming pool codes. They're here to help.
By the way, they've got no apparent interest in transient roofing companies ripping people off, or in metal recycling yards paying out cash for mysteriously "scrapped" electric substation materials, etc., etc....

Steve, I undrestand the reason behind the cost increase and never meant to imply it was the CIty's fault for that. Personally think ODot should pay for the increased cost if their requirements were the cause. But then again, that is taxpayer money too, so they get ya one way or the other...LOL But at the end of the day, the increases did happen.

Recall the old saying that sent fear in the minds of the citizenry. "I'm from the Government and I am here to help" LOL

RC is right (at least partially). I am not aware of the Council making any such promise. It may have been the understanding of some COuncil members behind closed doors that the C.C. would come last, but I don't ever recall it being made public pre-vote.

On the other side, the Mayor didn't "promise" it either. We threw it out there a couple of times and mentioned it was his "preference" that it "be staged last". The only other timeline elements I recall were that the rational to get the Park/Boulevard open at the same time as it will serve as the "gateways" into downtown (along the boundaries of the Park from the relocated I-40). Especially important if they are going to be driving though all of the Council designated "blight", it needs to be removed and improved as soon as possible. On that point they seem to be doing some back peddling when it comes to the Park, placing the emphasis on the C.C. end (where it was also placed when the Mayor's "preferred", not mandated, Core to Shore site was the "placeholder". The Mayor called the Park/Boulevard as being critical and the lynchpins to Core to Shore. Think he even stated without it Downtown would "grind to a halt" without them. Will look to see if I can dig up the exact quote.




Larry, I watched the council meeting yesterday. Make no mistake, the Mayor and his puppets, Marrs, McAtee, and Ryan, were on a mission yesterday. I recorded the meeting, went back and reviewed it, the Mayor and City Managers body language were laughable. I hope these guys dont play poker in their spare time, because they are easy to read. I like the way the Mayor went on damage control after Pete White and Skip Kelly went off on them. Nothing was going to veer the Mayor and city Manager off of course yesterday. lol Pete and Skip spoke the whole truth and nothing but the truth. How dare these guys not vote the will of the citizens of this fine city. How dare these clowns insult our intelligence like this. A large majority of us voted for the quality of life improvements, not the damn convention center. Unfortunately, we couldnt vote on the items individually, or the convention center would not have passed at all. Remember it polled the least of the projects by far. So they had to attach the convention center to the other items that polled more favorable to get it passed. Now the OKC elite and the chamber elite as well as the jokelahoman have the nerve to move this project to the front of the line, with still no clear direction on where the funding will come from to build the 50 million dollar hotel. Marrs, McAtee, Salyer, Ryan, you are done, Mayor Mick you are done. MAPS 3.1 or 4, lol, good luck with that one.....The big money or slanted views from the Jokelahoman wont matter next time. You showed your true colors, yesterday, and its gonna cost you at election time. They acted with total disregard for the wishes of the citizens. There is nothing worse in government, than having gutless people with no vision running your city. Betts, RCJunkie, are you people so desperate for OKC downtown improvements that you will sell your soul to these elitests. I know that you are more intelligent than that. Please tell me you have more pride than that. Take your blinders off or take your head out of the sand and look to see what is happening. These guys are doing whatever they want with our damn money. OUR MONEY not theirs. I am sure that you will agree with me when I say we are smart enough to spend our own money wisely. Pete White was exactly right, yesterday, when he said, all of these things that are happening are not coincidence. The things are a well orchestrated plan, by the chamber elite and the okc elite, using the mayor, the city manager and some of the council as pawns, nothing more. Tell me you guys aren't naive enough to continue to believe their lies and deceit. I voted yes for MAPS3 and I want the projects that polled the best to be built first. I distinctly remember the public safety folks saying something of this nature was going to happen and do not trust these city leaders. Well, guess what, they were right. Imagine that. Why there was no continuance given yesterday, is beyond me. Its absolutely insane, the vote outcome would have been the same if all council persons would have been there, instead of 4-3, it would have been 5-4. Same outcome more than likely, but maybe not, definitely more discussion.

...All I have heard is that discretionary funds from that bond issue were used to buy land for our new Central Park and I've assumed those funds came from our planned sidewalks. ...

According to my reading on it the $6MM used to buy property in the MAPS 3 park area (Goodwill and Post Office) were part of the dedicated funding of the $26MM authorized in the 2007 G.O. bond. To my knowledge, no discretionary money was used or money diverted from sidewalks.

Part of your frustration with bond issues (like MAPS projects), are that they are spread out over a long-term (often 10 years or so). Due to state laws and possibly City procedure, they can't exceed a certain bonding percentage. In other words while the bond may have passed in 2007, it isn't like they went out the the next day and sold $835.5MM in bonds. They have to wait until old bonds are retired.

Keep on your Councilman about sidewalks in your area is all I can say. It can take a long time to get things built (recently a fire station was built with bonds from the 2000 G.O., that's 10 years later).

http://www.okc.gov/bonds2007/
If you go to the link directly above, you can look at what was included in the 2007 bond. Think sidewalks are part of Proposition 1), it stated that 350 miles are to be built (seems to be in conjunction with street widening projects, so if no street widening, no sidewalk). That is where I am guessing the $10MM in MAPS 3 is to help fill in some (but not all) of the gaps.

Bob, I thought you voted against MAPS. You're throwing a lot of "us's" around for someone who didn't even want the projects to begin with. I'm not saying some of the people involved don't have agendas. But, the histrionics around here make me think there are a lot of posters with agendas as well. I think the reaction is out of proportion to the crime, and that smells of politics just as much as yesterday did.

Vote against MAPS 4. I wouldn't expect anything else. Campaign for a different Councilman/woman. Maybe they can be impeached.....someone will know.

Soonerguru, it's interesting that now they are bullies, yet when they are pushing their Employees around that's OK!

?

I'm not a fan of plutocrats forcing their will on the common man. You must be rehashing pre-MAPS arguments now.

No rehashing, just enjoying the chamber steamroller!

I expected nothing less from our "big league mayor" and former koco sports anchor.

Wow, is this a small town or OKC? It feels like small town politics. I wish I would have voted NO! This MAPS should be called MAPS for City Elite. Regular citizens have no say! I am voting no on all MAPS or other city votes from now on. Their power is out of control!

The project list has not changed and most of the projects will be around for 50 to 100 years at least, 2 to 5 years in what was built when are hardly different in the end. The consultant has them budgeted so in theory the same thing will get built whether it is built at the start or finish, because budgets are based on what they should cost at the middle and given less if built early because inflation has not set in yet, and projects at the end get more to adjust for inflation. The leading the revised timeline and that timeline being railroading in has been ridiculous and may get some voted out, however unless they start getting creative with the other projects funding what is being delivered does fit the relatively vague descriptions voted on for the projects.

The project list has not changed and most of the projects will be around for 50 to 100 years at least, 2 to 5 years in what was built when are hardly different in the end. The consultant has them budgeted so in theory the same thing will get built whether it is built at the start or finish, because budgets are based on what they should cost at the middle and given less if built early because inflation has not set in yet, and projects at the end get more to adjust for inflation. The leading the revised timeline and that timeline being railroading in has been ridiculous and may get some voted out, however unless they start getting creative with the other projects funding what is being delivered does fit the relatively vague descriptions voted on for the projects.

You're missing the point here. The big suits moved up the convention center because they know it's a massive turd floating atop the MAPS III bowl that the public will never support independently. They have no idea on earth how they will be able to construct this turd with the limited budget they have allocated. So they're doing the cynical thing: building it first in the vain hope the public won't notice when they try to swindle or shortchange other projects. This turd has been giftwrapped now by this accelerated schedule and the citizens of OKC are going to have to deal with what happens.

Oh my goodness.

It's hyperbole that the council is somehow suffering from a vast uncivil divide. Work is still being accomplished, at the same pace it has for many years, in all its impatient grumpiness and snide sarcastic glory. The painful truth for our new council member to accept is that they just don't like him. Ed has an abrasive personality. It's not as though he's tried to be sociable and forge relationships. ... The allegations and concerns may or may not be valid, but until he learns to play well with others he won't be able to serve his constituents' interests.

Oh my goodness.

Hard to watch, I'm sure. But Casey, sometimes, the truth isn't pretty to have to reconcile with family ties. I wish you would have had more to say. But - I understand.

You're missing the point here. The big suits moved up the convention center because they know it's a massive turd floating atop the MAPS III bowl that the public will never support independently. They have no idea on earth how they will be able to construct this turd with the limited budget they have allocated. So they're doing the cynical thing: building it first in the vain hope the public won't notice when they try to swindle or shortchange other projects. This turd has been giftwrapped now by this accelerated schedule and the citizens of OKC are going to have to deal with what happens.

You hit the nail right on the head. When the time comes for the "Finish MAPS Right" campaign the Convention Center people didn't want to be the only ones with their hands out. Remember that $30,000,000 for the power station. Remember how nobody remembers that being mentioned and how it was used against the east park site. Watch how quickly that $30 million is used on the convention center hotel by the very people who said it didn't even exist in the first place. What a manipulative bunch of (well I can't say it - there are children reading).

According to my reading on it the $6MM used to buy property in the MAPS 3 park area (Goodwill and Post Office) were part of the dedicated funding of the $26MM authorized in the 2007 G.O. bond. To my knowledge, no discretionary money was used or money diverted from sidewalks.

Part of your frustration with bond issues (like MAPS projects), are that they are spread out over a long-term (often 10 years or so). Due to state laws and possibly City procedure, they can't exceed a certain bonding percentage. In other words while the bond may have passed in 2007, it isn't like they went out the the next day and sold $835.5MM in bonds. They have to wait until old bonds are retired.

Keep on your Councilman about sidewalks in your area is all I can say. It can take a long time to get things built (recently a fire station was built with bonds from the 2000 G.O., that's 10 years later).

http://www.okc.gov/bonds2007/
If you go to the link directly above, you can look at what was included in the 2007 bond. Think sidewalks are part of Proposition 1), it stated that 350 miles are to be built (seems to be in conjunction with street widening projects, so if no street widening, no sidewalk). That is where I am guessing the $10MM in MAPS 3 is to help fill in some (but not all) of the gaps.

Sadly, the sidewalk issue is part of the big lie. We were told before voting for the 2007 bond issue and before MAPS 3 that the sidewalk issue was to put sidewalks in Oklahoma City neighborhoods that were built without them. This promise is one of the reasons both issues passed. Without that promise, both issues would have likely failed. We voters have been deceived BIG TIME.

This is why I would sign an initiative petition to end MAPS 3 early and vote for it. Maybe someday city leaders will not promise something they have no intention of delivering. I think it is voter pay back time.

Oh my goodness.

I agree Casey. The "Sky is Falling" crowd is out in force. LOL

I suspect that if the Council had voted differently there would have been similar teeth gnashing. They would have just had to look for different reasons.

Hard to watch, I'm sure. But Casey, sometimes, the truth isn't pretty to have to reconcile with family ties. I wish you would have had more to say. But - I understand.

Give me a break. You all are acting like he's Blagojevitch. Our mayor voted yes on moving a convention center up 30 months on a timeline that hadn't even been created when we voted. A little perspective here would be nice.

Give me a break. You all are acting like he's Blagojevitch. Our mayor voted yes on moving a convention center up 30 months on a timeline that hadn't even been created when we voted. A little perspective here would be nice.

Betts, just as a quick aside, I enjoyed seeing you on the news tonight.

Betts, just as a quick aside, I enjoyed seeing you on the news tonight.

Oh that. I was ambushed. I was washing mud off my feet and jeans in preparation for a trip to the nursery (redoing the landscaping on my tiny patch of dirt), looked up and they were there, tv camera and all. They were looking for genuine downtown residents to comment on the school and I was the only one in sight. I didn't watch, because I hate to be on camera.

Oh that. I was ambushed. I was washing mud off my feet and jeans in preparation for a trip to the nursery (redoing the landscaping on my tiny patch of dirt), looked up and they were there, tv camera and all. They were looking for genuine downtown residents to comment on the school and I was the only one in sight. I didn't watch, because I hate to be on camera.

I didn't see any mud so you looked fine. LOL
Your comments were great.

Sadly, the sidewalk issue is part of the big lie. We were told before voting for the 2007 bond issue and before MAPS 3 that the sidewalk issue was to put sidewalks in Oklahoma City neighborhoods that were built without them. This promise is one of the reasons both issues passed. Without that promise, both issues would have likely failed. We voters have been deceived BIG TIME.

This is why I would sign an initiative petition to end MAPS 3 early and vote for it. Maybe someday city leaders will not promise something they have no intention of delivering. I think it is voter pay back time.

Better yet. How about an initiative petition to stop MAPS immediately and then start a new plan for a penny tax that builds our neighborhood sidewalks first and then trails and then the transit system, then the Senior Wellness Aquatic Centers, finally the Central Park. Let the moneys collected so far on MAPS 3 go to improving the Oklahoma River venue and State Fair improvements.

Better yet. How about an initiative petition to stop MAPS immediately and then start a new plan for a penny tax that builds our neighborhood sidewalks first and then trails and then the transit system, then the Senior Wellness Aquatic Centers, finally the Central Park. Let the moneys collected so far on MAPS 3 go to improving the Oklahoma River venue and State Fair improvements.

Go for it, John. I won't sign.

Better yet. How about an initiative petition to stop MAPS immediately and then start a new plan for a penny tax that builds our neighborhood sidewalks first and then trails and then the transit system, then the Senior Wellness Aquatic Centers, finally the Central Park. Let the moneys collected so far on MAPS 3 go to improving the Oklahoma River venue and State Fair improvements.

Impractical. I would assume, if it's even possible, that you would have to collect signatures and then have a vote on whether to stop MAPS. Were it successful, which is unlikely, you'd immediately stop all sales tax collections. Then, you'd have to schedule a new election, and it might not pass, which would mean there would be no trails,sidewalks, senior centers, etc. Ultimately, all the projects you want would be delayed far more than they will be under the existing timeline even if it did pass.

There is never going to be a multi-project initiative that pleases everyone. There couldn't be a timeline that pleased everyone either. Although I was opposed to moving the convention center up, I'm picking my battles and that's not one I think is worthy of being picked.

I agree Casey. The "Sky is Falling" crowd is out in force. LOL

I suspect that if the Council had voted differently there would have been similar teeth gnashing. They would have just had to look for different reasons.

I couldn't agree more, the aroma of pure BS is overwhemling.