I spent my day off downtown yesterday and I thought the street life was great. Granted, the weather was beautifully spring-like.

That said, I also spent some time exploring the Underground, because I'm not usually around while it's open.

Not where...when...fifteen years ago.

Agreed. Through most of the 90s there just wasn't a whole lot going on DT.

Not where...when...fifteen years ago.

Downtown WAS a ghost town 15 years ago. I hope people realize how much better it is now....tunnel or no tunnel.

I believe in the positive more than the negative. Make things on the street better and people won't WANT to go to the tunnel. If you force them to the street and there is nothing there for them, what good is that? Some people believe you MAKE people do what you want, and some think you can make it better so people WANT what you offer.

Downtown is much busier now than it was when I moved here in 2011. While I appreciate the theory behind getting everyone on a single level (sidewalks), I like the Underground on days when the weather is bad. If anything, it allows me to spend my money easier downtown on those days.

Downtown WAS a ghost town 15 years ago.

That's what I said lol.

I love the underground! Is really nice and convenient for most people. I find it funny how some people want it removed as they want to force people to live and work how "they" want them to.

That's not what it is about.Well, it sure seems like it. Forcing people to use the streets because "they" want to see more people on the street. The forcing part comes from removing the option for people to use the underground which is obviously their preferred choice at certain times when inclement weather is occurring.

Well, it sure seems like it. Forcing people to use the streets because "they" want to see more people on the street. The forcing part comes from removing the option for people to use the underground which is obviously their preferred choice at certain times when inclement weather is occurring.

It was just a suggestion by that independant group hired by OKC. You gotta remember that back around the mid 90s, OKC was pretty desperate to make things happen. The Murrah bombing was still fresh in everyone's min. We weren't sure if we were ever gonna get to see the fruits of MAPS becaues as Oklahomans we had learned to temper our expectations because grandiose things had been promised before but never came to fuition. And nothing was drawing people to downtown. A whole lot different than things are now.

As someone who is downtown every workday, I'm dumbfounded that people think that DT is a ghost town during work hours. Where are they looking?

Answer, on the sidewalk. On my last trip to downtown OKC the streets were dead, but the concourse inside the FNC building was packed. The problem is that those stores inside close when the office workers go home because most of them don't have any visibility from the street. It is really this simple - if we want a downtown that closes as at 5PM then keep doing what we are doing. If we want it to stay open past 5PM move the activity to the sidewalk. It's no harder than that. Just look how fast street-level retail is filling up in the downtown-adjacent areas that don't have the Underground nor direct access to 10's of thousands of workers.

Kerry, that is indeed happening but I seriously doubt the Underground has anything at all to do with that.

Kerry, that is indeed happening but I seriously doubt the Underground has anything at all to do with that.

You don't think what is happening? In buildings that are connected to the underground what percentage of their retail space opens to the concourse/an interior corridor vs. the sidewalk.

I think there is some oversimplification of the effects the underground had. The entire streetscape was anti-retail, much of which is just now being addressed: the sidewalks were undersized/missing/overdivided, we had almost every lane dedicated to moving cars in one direction instead of allowing for more on street parking and easier navigation around the city if they went both ways, much of the buildings that had better designed frontage were either demolished or remodeled the frontage out and most post 40's buildings generally had poorly designed frontage to the street. Plus starting retail in older areas is a lot harder than maintaining it, the combination of low population and the renewal plans actively moving what businesses where there meant there was quite a hole we had to dig ourselves out of. Even at this point we still have barely enough people living in the business district to support what was considered enough for the classic main street shops for small towns, in this case they are both helped and hurt by the fact that there is a day population boom, which comes along with that day only store competition for any trying to have more normal hours.

You don't think what is happening? In buildings that are connected to the underground what percentage of their retail space opens to the concourse/an interior corridor vs. the sidewalk.

Kerry, go back and read what I said. I didn't say what you thought I did.

Kerry, go back and read what I said. I didn't say what you thought I did.

Are you saying downtown retail is moving to the sidewalk?

I think both the sidewalk and the underground are assets, we just need more people to fill them. If First National was full with residential/hotel/or offices as well as Dowell's building, we would have more people to fill both. Not to mention Century Center having people.

There are some great locations in the underground that could make cool unusual locations for bars and retail. They just need to think more outside their tiny box. Having just cafes down there isn't enough. They need more of a mix. The biggest part of the equation for the undergroud is First National's above ground space. It is crucial to being full, because it is the doorway to the underground for most people.

WE JUST NEED MORE PEOPLE!

Are you saying downtown retail is moving to the sidewalk?
Right now, there is definitely more downtown retail above ground than in the Underground.

Are you saying downtown retail is moving to the sidewalk?

I said this.


Kerry, that is indeed happening but I seriously doubt the Underground has anything at all to do with that.

in response to this comment by you.


Just look how fast street-level retail is filling up in the downtown-adjacent areas that don't have the Underground nor direct access to 10's of thousands of workers.

Cool video of the underground

https://www.facebook.com/EdmondActive/posts/10153989662278489

If you look closely, you'll see all of the restaurants, shops, and other stores throughout the underground that otherwise would be on the street.

I used the underground last night for expediency, took it from 4th/Harvey to Reno/Cox. I passed 2 restaurants. I know there are others, but it's not a ton. And some of the places considered part of the underground are in basements of buildings and likely wouldn't go away if the Underground were closed tomorrow.

It's been a bit, but I can think of 2 restaurants... the Shartel Cafe, and the asian food place. Are there more?

^^^ +1

I am not an underground expert, but the times I have been down there I noticed four things about it.

1. There were hardly any restaurants or shops there

2. The lack of people down there but surprisingly when I went up to street level afterwards there was a lot of people(but the weather was really nice that day).

3. How cool it was.

4. How amazingly convenient it would be to use on a rainy, snowy, or really cold day.

I am probably in the minority on this on OKCTalk, but I would like to see it eventually expanded and I would also love to see new artwork on the walls down there. The lighting is really nice in some spots. Others, not so much.

I need to find the entrances so I can check this out. I have been meaning to for years.

There are many access points, not all are obvious. The 4th/Harvey one for example took me a bit to find.

perhaps they could revisit the Chase plaza entrance that Pete was talking about. I agree that maybe it could be expanded but retain the current look/shape so not to interfere with street level but to ADD to downtown and provide pathways for bad weather (and likely remaining the world's largest Tornado shelter. ....)

there ARE some significant upsides to the Underground - just don't compete with the street.

I went thru the Conncourse the last 2 days...there are 53 retail/restaurant/service businesses that have Conncourse access but no door to the sidewalk. With the relocation of tennants to Robinson Renaissance they opened up a new access portal on the second floor. So much for the Park Avenue Retail plan.

Park Ave isn't ready to get going yet, not until FNC rebuilds the streetfronts. I suspect the Robinson Renaissance 2nd floor is a temporary thing unless they keep it after FNC is complete (if the market is ready).

Temporary? I doubt it. As for when to do it...the future is now.