In absence of providing good options, just force them...right?

To use the logic, there should be no subways, just sidewalks. Make everyone walk by a store.

Just get some storefronts open, some good merchandisers in place, and make it attractive to walk the streets.

Don't subways empty crowds from each transit stop out into the sidewalks and streets?

Maybe I'm confused as to what a subway actually is

Sid, my remarks weren't aimed at your comments, but to JTFs. JTF is always advocating that we need to force people to live the way he dreams it should be, but which he doesn't even. You never claim that.

I don't care for the tunnel, but it does serve some purpose and doesn't have to be shut down, nor is it the cause of downtowns lack of retail. If a few retailers would take a reasonable chance and open stores with merchandise people who work and live downtown want, there is business to be had. BC Clark seems to do just fine. And no one would keep them from having an outside entrance or windows. If JTF is correct, then creating the right retail options and the right street ambiance would create traffic without FORCING people to walk by it. Make it right for them to CHOOSE to do it. Give them the good alternatives instead of blaming things that are irrelevant. Create a street where people WANT to be, not where they HAVE TO BE. There are thousands of people downtown every day. Give them a reason to go shop after work. If you don't, then they just want to get to their cars and go home.

Downtown retail is very complicated

/understatement

I know you think everyone else is stupid, but they aren't.
When was the last time you turned on a TV?

I work downtown and I use the Conncourse. Both Rover and sidburgess have excellent points they are making.

If I were building an ideal city, from the ground up, I would not include the Conncourse. I'd prefer to concentrate pedestrian traffic as much as possible. More people travelling over fewer streets results in higher numbers of people walking by each storefront. That's why gas stations near the interstate can charge more than a station a block away, because of convenience and higher visibility. That said, the Conncourse isn't killing retail downtown. It's not all that convenient. There is a real problem in that there aren't that many great things to buy downtown. Gradually that is changing, but it's going to take time.

Retail has success when it is convenient. You can have the best store in the world, but if it's a pain in the ass to get to, you'll go broke. Right now, downtown retail isn't convenient for most people. I work downtown. If I park two blocks east of where I work, and a Wallgreens is two blocks west from where I work, I will not walk 4 extra blocks just to buy some Tylenol downtown. I will drive home, and buy Tylenol at the Wallgreens near my house. Only the occasional Just The Facts type person who has an orgasm from the words "new urbanism" would do otherwise (no offense, JTF). You see, because I have to get in my car and drive home anyway. I have to brave downtown traffic anyway. I don't save anything by shopping downtown. It is not more convenient. It is less convenient. That is why downtown retail struggles.

We need more people downtown to get more retail. As we add housing, gradually, we will add retail. When you have enough people living downtown to support a CVS, you'll get a CVS. That will spur more growth, because people will say "Hey, there's a CVS nearby". So they will be more comfortable living here. We're seeing this in Deep Deuce and Midtown. The growth in those areas is accelerating. Once those neighborhoods have filled in, and once the streetcar is in place, you'll start seeing more growth. If I can live in Deep Deuce and take the streetcar to work downtown, then it makes sense for me to walk a few blocks to the Wallgreens, because I can avoid getting in my car altogether. When it becomes convenient, you won't have to struggle to keep retail.

Right now our retail is built around people who work downtown and then go home for the night. Our retail is in the category of "stuff you buy on your lunch break". People want "stuff you buy when you live here". But you need people who live here before you get that.

There is a market of thousands of people downtown. There aren't retail shops that are interesting enough to have them stay and shop after work. Don't blame the concourse. Blame the fact that there is no real innovative retail in the core. No products being sold that interests the people working there. No marketing effort aimed at retaining them. No incentives. This isn't a concourse problem, this is an investment and dedication to establishing retail presence downtown problem. Making people walk in the rain, snow and wind won't make them suddenly duck into stores to buy something other than umbrellas and mufflers. The concourse is a lazy excuse for not wanting to do what it takes to establish downtown as a marketing destination.

Well, there's only so much "destination retail" that a city can support. Much of central OKC's is in Penn Square Mall. If we were to get a Crate and Barrel, that's where it would be. It's where our Apple Store is. Nice shops equals Penn Square. A large chunk of the metro area goes there to buy that stuff. I'm not sure you can put a lot of destination retail downtown without hurting Penn Square. BC Clark does well because they're the premier jewelry store in the city. But you just can't create BC Clarks out of thin air and expect them to succeed.

I think you've got to walk before you can run. As more people move downtown, you'll get more retail. It won't be BC Clark level, but it will be what downtown needs and can support.

Don't blame the concourse.

I think this is key to the conversation. The retail hours I posted above tie closely to the work day. The fact that retail in other neighborhoods near downtown stay open later or are open at all on weekends cannot be linked to the absence of a tunnel system. The old statistics adage that correlation does not equal causation should always be remembered when evaluating situations like these.

I like the Underground. It's great on days like today. I walked to the bank without getting wet. I fully understand the new urbanism concept of wanting to keep everyone on a single plane. But even if everything was at street level, open to a sidewalk, I would not buy anything more than I already do down here. Like most people I know under 35, I buy almost everything but clothes and food online.

I think it's silly to say that if we close the Underground, the CBD will attract a bunch of new retail.

I think this is key to the conversation. The retail hours I posted above tie closely to the work day. The fact that retail in other neighborhoods near downtown stay open later or are open at all on weekends cannot be linked to the absence of a tunnel system. The old statistics adage that correlation does not equal causation should always be remembered when evaluating situations like these.

I like the Underground. It's great on days like today. I walked to the bank without getting wet. I fully understand the new urbanism concept of wanting to keep everyone on a single plane. But even if everything was at street level, open to a sidewalk, I would not buy anything more than I already do down here. Like most people I know under 35, I buy almost everything but clothes and food online.

I think it's silly to say that if we close the Underground, the CBD will attract a bunch of new retail.

+1 like

Well, there's only so much "destination retail" that a city can support. Much of central OKC's is in Penn Square Mall. If we were to get a Crate and Barrel, that's where it would be. It's where our Apple Store is. Nice shops equals Penn Square. A large chunk of the metro area goes there to buy that stuff. I'm not sure you can put a lot of destination retail downtown without hurting Penn Square. BC Clark does well because they're the premier jewelry store in the city. But you just can't create BC Clarks out of thin air and expect them to succeed.

I think you've got to walk before you can run. As more people move downtown, you'll get more retail. It won't be BC Clark level, but it will be what downtown needs and can support.

There is a difference between a destination shopping area and destination stores.

My wife and I go downtown to walk sometimes. We've used the concourse just for the fun of it. Kind of smooth and no obstacles to work around so not much of a cardio workout. Got scolded by a tunnel cop on a segeway for taking pictures of my wife in the different colors of light. Something to do with the pics on the walls.

My wife and I go downtown to walk sometimes. We've used the concourse just for the fun of it. Kind of smooth and no obstacles to work around so not much of a cardio workout. Got scolded by a tunnel cop on a segeway for taking pictures of my wife in the different colors of light. Something to do with the pics on the walls.

They have a no photography policy, whoever 'they' are. I'm not sure who set that policy for security to enforce or that it's even legal to enforce it, in that most of it is public property but I believe it's more related to anti terrorism and the related war on photography than any copyright issues. (Parts of The Underground are public and parts are owned by the owners of the building it passes through.) No photography for anti-terrorism policies are a pet peeve of mine but I've taken all the photos I need and want of the place and I've not been moved to push back against this one.

Barney Fife running up on me on his two wheeled scooter was a bit much. Will not cross that bunch again. Nipped me in the bud.

I wonder if that guardian of public safety later went to work out there in Piedmont . . .

Barney Fife running up on me on his two wheeled scooter was a bit much. Will not cross that bunch again. Nipped me in the bud.

I met security the same way but like I said, I had pretty much photographed everything I was going to photograph when he told me to stop.

If I park two blocks east of where I work, and a Wallgreens is two blocks west from where I work, I will not walk 4 extra blocks just to buy some Tylenol downtown. I will drive home, and buy Tylenol at the Wallgreens near my house.

...

You see, because I have to get in my car and drive home anyway. I have to brave downtown traffic anyway. I don't save anything by shopping downtown. It is not more convenient. It is less convenient. That is why downtown retail struggles.

That Walgreens on your way home is on the same horizontal plane your car is on, which is the same one you live on. What if it wasn’t? What if you were at ground level but the Walgreens was in a tunnel underground or elevated 20 feet above you? Would it be as convenient? The same thing with your gas station.

I want to suggest that people are like mice. If you put down a mousetrap and don't have any mice within 48 hours, you have to move the trap to a better location. They will not meander toward your trap one day on a whim. Why? Mice are creatures of habits, like humans. To set an effect trap (retail), it has to be on a habitual path. The habitual path then needs to be altered so that retail can reach it if retail is a goal.

If there was a Walgreens downtown at street level the tunnel would have NO bearing on its success. If people need something they will get off the elevator on first floor instead of tunnel. Your logic on this is flawed. You seem to think you have to FORCE people to your Utopian dream. The tunnel is not the bogeyman. The lack of retailers willing to market downtown is. The lack of building owners enabling it is. Why don't building owners downtown incentivize some better retailers to locate in their buildings? It is NOT a tunnel issue. To think someone must walk by to know the store is there is silly. OKC downtown isn't so big that stores won't be known.

That Walgreens on your way home is on the same horizontal plane your car is on, which is the same one you live on. What if it wasn’t? What if you were at ground level but the Walgreens was in a tunnel underground or elevated 20 feet above you? Would it be as convenient? The same thing with your gas station.

So, of I am leaving my office, you are saying I MUST go to the tunnel and be inconvenienced to come back up? Do we put stores at every level in all downtown buildings so we don't have to change planes? Don't be silly. Just get off the elevator on the ground floor and exit to the street. Can't be that hard to figure out.

Rover, this is pretty simple but for some reason you are trying to make it complicated so let's try a different approach. Downtown property owners can wait for the downtown population to increase or they can take the existing downtown population and concentrate it. Of those two options which one has been used for the last 50 years?

On second thought, maybe that question is a bit premature so let me go back another step. What is the problem trying to be solved? For me it is a lack of downtown retailers to fill vacant space and promote downtown as a viable residential area for those that choose/want to live there as well as provide income for existing property owners and to encourge further development of the area.

What problem are you trying to solve, or do you not see a problem at all and thus the status quo is okie dokie.

Status quo is not the desired target. But this is a thread on the tunnel and it isn't the cause of lack of retail. Fix the street level issues and the underground becomes irrelevant. There is little street level ambiance, no creative merchandising at street level, etc. building owners aren't creating favorable retail spaces and attractive street fronts. We are getting some of the street issues addressed but the building owners need to do their part and some retailers need to step up.

Funny how Penn Square and Quail Springs manage to survive with multiple levels of shopping and the requirement that you drive, park and walk to get there to the main level. The Underground is not the problem. It's not even a problem.

As far as population location and concentration, it is going to be awhile before there is enough for significant localized demand based on numbers. If you want to make getting into and out of downtown slower and less convenient and don't want more parking, where is the retail buyer coming from? If we could blink and suddenly have this network of mass trans that extended into many more areas of willing spenders of discretionary income, maybe downtown would support more retail. But, that is decades away.

Status quo is not the desired target. But this is a thread on the tunnel and it isn't the cause of lack of retail. Fix the street level issues and the underground becomes irrelevant. There is little street level ambiance, no creative merchandising at street level, etc. building owners aren't creating favorable retail spaces and attractive street fronts. We are getting some of the street issues addressed but the building owners need to do their part and some retailers need to step up.

What would you do different? Any ideas on how to get the property owners and retailers to 'step up'?

"I know you think everyone else is stupid, but they aren't"

When was the last time you turned on a TV?

I wanted to simply "Like" this, but apparently "Likes" have been disabled on this thread.

btw: "The Barney Fife o' The Underground Concourse" is a perfect example of why to always carry around a sign reading "Buffoon" so's you can hand it to him after the slap on the wrist and say, "Here's yer sign" . . .

You should probably send that sign up the ladder to one of these levels if not both and to their superiors and grantors. I expect Underground security is doing what they are told.

City of Oklahoma City | Homeland Security (http://www.okc.gov/hs/)

Oklahoma Office of Homeland Security - Home (http://www.ok.gov/homeland/)

FYI, the War on Photography: https://www.google.com/search?hl=&q=war+on+photography&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B3GGLL_enUS369US369&ie=UTF-8

You should probably send that sign up the ladder to one of these levels if not both and to their superiors and grantors. I expect Underground security is doing what they are told.

City of Oklahoma City | Homeland Security (http://www.okc.gov/hs/)

Oklahoma Office of Homeland Security - Home (http://www.ok.gov/homeland/)

FYI, the War on Photography: https://www.google.com/search?hl=&q=war+on+photography&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B3GGLL_enUS369US369&ie=UTF-8

Which is the perfect "Segway" to . . . I gotta admit that I probably wouldn't have been hassled by The Underground TaskForce if I had left the turban and the fake beard at home . . . for security.

One must admit, all things considered, that Underground Security is way cooler--and creepier--than Mall Cop.

What would you do different? Any ideas on how to get the property owners and retailers to 'step up'?

The downtown chamber needs to identify what demand is already there and use the information to actually predict what retail opportunities are worth the risk. A good market research project could identify the impediments, as well. Use top MBA students from OU, OCU or one of the local business schools, to use contemporary unbiased market research techniques at a fraction of the price theY are used to paying.

Armed with good information, work with building owners to convince them that having retail in their building can be financially positive and a preferred amenity. They need to make the capital commitment to create appropriate retail space that allows access. Those developers you dread from the burbs sometimes have to subsidize for periods of time to make it financially feasible for small business. And they need to recruit GOOD retailers with proven successes who are willing to invest in skillful marketing, not just on merchandise.

P180 is a start because the streets and sidewalks were terrible before. But they haven't created any real ambiance and intimacy that makes people want to be on the streets. They need to work with the building owners to do that...to interface with store fronts, sidewalk cafes, etc.

I certainly wasn't suggesting this. Not sure if others were.


I know you weren't, Sid.

P180 is a start because the streets and sidewalks were terrible before. But they haven't created any real ambiance and intimacy that makes people want to be on the streets. They need to work with the building owners to do that...to interface with store fronts, sidewalk cafes, etc.

So with P180 nearing some level of completion at great expense to the taxpayer AND to encourage building owners to relocate front doors to the sidewalk, do you think it would be a good idea for the city to remove features that were counter-productive to putting pedestrians on the sidewalks? In other words, why would building X and which retailers would go through the cost of putting in a sidewalk front retail store if at the same time the City was making it possible for people to by-pass the store completely?

I realize that this is going to be one of the stupidest, most uninformed, out of the loop questions ever, but exactly where is it downtown that there aren't sidewalks adjacent to businesses? And you should know that the only time I've ever been down in the Underground Concourse was on an Opening Night, decades ago. (it was pretty cool, outside the wind chill was probably down around zero).

I know you hate p180, but the fact is that it has significantly improved downtown. We have spent 100 s of millions downtown. These building owners need to step up. We have two way streets, on street parking, better sidewalks, etc, and yet you want the building owners to take a pass. When do you expect the govt to quit being the fall guy? The building owners need to do their part in creating the street level ambiance and services. And a few retailers need to take some risk too if you expect it to happen.

Not sure who the 'hate P180' comment was directed at but I love P180. In fact, the streets should have never been made one-way to begin with (freaking IM Pei). So once again, the City has spent large sums of money to rebuild every street and sidewalk but yet they continue to fund and operate a second and competing pathway. Does it make sense to do that?

Do building owners have a civic duty to downtown? If I own a crappy little building and I choose to leave it rundown and ugly because I can still make a little cash from it, is that bad? If it is bad is there anything we can do about it? The most glaring examples downtown are the Preftakes properties. That could be a great little area with cool shops and things. But he's holding them for Devon... right?

I agree that building owners should work to improve downtown. But I don't think there's necessarily a huge amount of unoccupied retail space that 1) isn't being held for something else, 2) where the owners actually have the money to fix it up, and 3) is in a good location to make money. Preftakes has a big plan for his properties and is waiting for something. The owner of First National has no money. Century Center is, well, Century Center. It seems like a lot of the prime real estate downtown is "on reserve" for new towers. If I were looking at putting in some sizable retail, I'd want to wait and see what space was going to be available.

I think once we get enough people living downtown, we'll get more retail. Could a developer team up with a national retailer to help fund construction of a new building? Say you are going to build a 12 story midrise diagonal from the courthouse, where the surface parking lot is on Robert S Kerr and Hudson. Total cost is $25 million, we'll say. If it costs $5 million to build a Wallgreens, it may be possible to have a joint venture with them where they pay their normal cost and they get ownership of the first floor?

Downtown has tons of unused first floor space. Let's look at Oklahoma Tower. I am not sure if it has any ground floor retail or not. If it does there is no door to the sidewalk for it. However, it does have 3 skywalks on the second floor that connect it to Corporate Tower, Leadership Sq, and Devon Parking Garage. If those 3 skywalks were removed and everyone had to use the front door instead do you think it would make the area around the front door more desirable for retail? With the Park Harvey right across the street and the main branch of the library right next door it would be great location with potential customers available well into the evening (the library closes at 9PM and several hundred people live in Park Harvey). But alas, the vast majority of daytime users don't use the front door or the sidewalk in front of the building - so no retail.

Oh, I almost forgot the covered walk way to Robinson Renaissance as well. So 4 ways in besides the sidewalk in front of the building.

If downtown retail is a quality of life issue, tax credits could be given to building owners who sign first floor retail tenants. Tax credits for owners would result in lower rent for retailers. Alternatively the city could declare the CBD a sales-tax-free zone. Adding a nearly 10% subsidy on revenue for retailers would certainly encourage development, and tilt the table towards retail instead of office space.

I know you hate p180, but the fact is that it has significantly improved downtown. We have spent 100 s of millions downtown. These building owners need to step up. We have two way streets, on street parking, better sidewalks, etc, and yet you want the building owners to take a pass. When do you expect the govt to quit being the fall guy? The building owners need to do their part in creating the street level ambiance and services. And a few retailers need to take some risk too if you expect it to happen.

And without an increase in taxes or bond obligations.
(you know . . . that "risk" thing that made America great)

However: The business owners should only be held responsible and accountable for removing (sweeping) their own frontage rather that being held liable for the fact that the sidewalk in front of their store was poorly designed and subject to the whims and vagaries of nature as defined, in part, by the frost heaving effects of the local clay soil. Otherwise, the helicopter mom pushing the stroller that encounters a bump exceeding the recommended allowance of vertical displacement of the pavement might be tempted to sue. =)

Not sure who the 'hate P180' comment was directed at but I love P180. (freaking IM Pei).

Agreed. I suppose it all depends on whose Ox is Being Gored as compared to Fed.
(remember The Biltmore? =)

Downtown has tons of unused first floor space. Let's look at Oklahoma Tower. I am not sure if it has any ground floor retail or not. If it does there is no door to the sidewalk for it. However, it does have 3 skywalks on the second floor that connect it to Corporate Tower, Leadership Sq, and Devon Parking Garage. If those 3 skywalks were removed and everyone had to use the front door instead do you think it would make the area around the front door more desirable for retail? With the Park Harvey right across the street and the main branch of the library right next door it would be great location with potential customers available well into the evening (the library closes at 9PM and several hundred people live in Park Harvey). But alas, the vast majority of daytime users don't use the front door or the sidewalk in front of the building - so no retail.

Oh, I almost forgot the covered walk way to Robinson Renaissance as well. So 4 ways in besides the sidewalk in front of the building.

Teena Hicks is retail that is on the second floor of Oklahoma Tower, along the Conncourse route. On the ground floor you have Richie's, a pretty good burger/grill place, and a relatively small about the size of a conference room that could probably hold some sort of retail. I think something was there for a while and then closed.

Thanks Hoyasooner. On the second floor along the Conncourse - perfect. That way it is sure to close as soon as the office workers go home. Richey's gets pretty good reviews on Urban Spoon but I'll be they close when the building closes. If they had their own door to the sidewalk they could set their own hours. The vacant space, does it front a wall along the sidewalk?

Richey's - Downtown - Oklahoma City | Urbanspoon (http://www.urbanspoon.com/r/46/501291/restaurant/Downtown/Richeys-Oklahoma-City)


Teena Hicks:
http://www.teenahickscompany.com/teena-hicks-mens-clothing-contact.asp

Monday-Friday: 9am-6pm
Saturday: 10am-1pm

I walked right by this building on the sidewalk 2 weeks ago and didnt even see this store. I guess that is because it was 20 feet above me and inside a building. Too bad. We did see, and go into Pinkitzel in the Santa Fe Station loading dock. That is a quality store.

This is kind of fun and educational. Maybe we should just pick buildings at random and identify what's in it and what space is vacant.

Yeah the vacant space is right on the sidewalk. It might not be vacant right now, I just remember there used to be a Thunder store in there a few years ago and now it's gone. It's not that big of a place. It's about the size of a dentist's waiting room. Teena Hicks gets pretty good traffic on the second level.

If I were to rebuild OKC from the ground up according to my liking, I'd remake it without the Conncourse. The weather here is good enough most of the time so we don't really need it. But I think shutting it down is an overreaction.

I do too. In fact, I think They could make The Concourse look something like this with a little imagination and a few bucks.
http://www.lakesnwoods.com/images/Cambri58.jpg
(it reminded me--almost exactly--of my childhood in the suburbs of a certain town in Colorado that now has a Pearl Street Mall =)

It might not be vacant right now, I just remember there used to be a Thunder store in there a few years ago and now it's gone. It's not that big of a place.
Are you sure it was ever a Thunder store? I could be wrong, but I don't think it was ever a Thunder store. I believe it was a Hornets store when they were in town. As far as I can recollect (since I've worked in Leadership Square since the Thunder came to town), the official Thunder store has always been in Leadership Square.

Are you sure it was ever a Thunder store? I could be wrong, but I don't think it was ever a Thunder store. I believe it was a Hornets store when they were in town. As far as I can recollect (since I've worked in Leadership Square since the Thunder came to town), the official Thunder store has always been in Leadership Square.

No I'm not. :)

Does anyone know where to find a sales tax collection map? A ban on sales tax in the CBD would probably not cost very much lost revenue for the city and greatly enhance visitors' image of the city.

Downtown has tons of unused first floor space.

My dream first floor revitalization project would be the Pioneer building. I wish AT&T would tear out the marble closing off the windows and such to re-expose the ground floor space and lease it out. You would catch the foot traffic from the people walking up Broadway from the Sheraton and Renaissance to get to Automobile Alley...

I agree 100%. I'd love to see those windows brought back.

And those hideous antennas and dishes taken off the top.

I started a thread for this over here: http://www.okctalk.com/local-businesses/32991-fixing-downtown-retail.html
so as to not gum up this thread!

Anyone know what the status is of the west tunnel that connects near Sandridge to Leadership Square? It's been closed for month's and looks like no work is being done. Also, what happened to all the colored lights with the remodel? Looks like most of them have been half assly ripped out and it looks awful. Ceiling tiles missing in various places, the maintenance has really gone downhill the last few months.

The tunnel is closed because of the construction above. I imagine it wont reopen until the Sandridge construction is complete. The north sections of the Underground didn't look that good to me even after the remodel, which is where I assume you are talking about the missing lights. I haven't noticed any in the parts that I use (Cox to Leadership).

Sandridge has no effect on this section I'm talking about. Anyone else more in the loop?

Metro,

Although it would seem that SandRidge's ongoing construction would not be the cause for this, it really is. The section you are talking about runs along Robert S. Kerr on the south side, which coincidentally is where the construction of the amenities building and Kerr Park renovations are taking place. From the buildings on the south of Kerr Park, you can see the Underground with a big hole in the side. Supposedly the amenities building will have Underground access.

Have a great day!

Eating crow..... I just realized the same thing before I read your post. It does angle through the amenities building area. Another reason it will suck if Sandridge stops work on the building due to the rogue shareholder. Thanks for the correction.

As it is getting colder, I noticed the underground is way busier (obviously).

Although I am guilty of using the tunnels often in the winter and rain, I still wish they did not exist.


It makes me sad to think of what the visible streets could look like on a weekday around 8am, noon, and 5pm if the underground was non existant.

As it is getting colder, I noticed the underground is way busier (obviously).

Although I am guilty of using the tunnels often in the winter and rain, I still wish they did not exist.


It makes me sad to think of what the visible streets could look like on a weekday around 8am, noon, and 5pm if the underground was non existant.

Like^. It is hard to build a meaningful retail community when your customers bypass every you time it is too hot, or too cold, or too rainy, or too windy, etc..... One think I noticed on our last trip to Philly is that when it started raining - nearly everyone ducked into the nearest store until the rain stopped.

Like^. It is hard to build a meaningful retail community when your customers bypass every you time it is too hot, or too cold, or too rainy, or too windy, etc..... One think I noticed on our last trip to Philly is that when it started raining - nearly everyone ducked into the nearest store until the rain stopped.
If it's too cold, too rainy or too windy, I'm going to bypass them whether underground or above ground.

As it is getting colder, I noticed the underground is way busier (obviously).

Although I am guilty of using the tunnels often in the winter and rain, I still wish they did not exist.


It makes me sad to think of what the visible streets could look like on a weekday around 8am, noon, and 5pm if the underground was non existant.

I remember we had a group do study and make proposals on DT maybe 15 years or so ago. This was when MAPS was just beginning to get traction. The group was dumbfounded by how OKC was a ghost town even during work hours. They had no idea about the Conncourse until someone from OKC told them. Their suggestion was to shut down the Conncourse and get as much activity at street level as possible. An empty DT gives visitors the feeling of an unsafe area.

I remember we had a group do study and make proposals on DT maybe 15 years or so ago. This was when MAPS was just beginning to get traction. The group was dumbfounded by how OKC was a ghost town even during work hours. They had no idea about the Conncourse until someone from OKC told them. Their suggestion was to shut down the Conncourse and get as much activity at street level as possible. An empty DT gives visitors the feeling of an unsafe area.
As someone who is downtown every workday, I'm dumbfounded that people think that DT is a ghost town during work hours. Where are they looking?

As someone who is downtown every workday, I'm dumbfounded that people think that DT is a ghost town during work hours. Where are they looking?

Not where...when...fifteen years ago.