Somehow I think you would manage to adjust and the street life in OKC would be better for it. But alas, it isn't going to be closed so it doesn't matter.

Part of the renovation was to have included more access points from the street, with signage.

But that was largely nixed because a lot of people felt it was a bad idea to encourage foot traffic to head underground rather than stay at street level. There was to be a prominent entrance on Broadway adjacent to Chase Tower, for example.

One of the issues with that is the tunnel runs through private property and many if not all of the access points are private property. Not all of those property owners are on the same page about providing access, spending money on improvements, nor goals for the tunnel others might have. For instance, the last time I made a tour of it after the remodel, the Skirvin kept their access unlocked, which may be some long ago agreed upon requirement, but they had no signs and large potted plants strategically placed to give the impression the path was not open.

As far as filling it in, that's never going to happen. It could be closed to the public but part of the function is a utility tunnel, which also explains to some extent why it isn't more commercial in nature, it wasn't designed for that.

Yep - it never gets hot, humid, or rains here in Jacksonville. I guess that is why we manage to live without an underground.

LOL, how do you even know if, theoretically, a underground was built in Jacksonville that your fellow Jville'ites wouldn't use it? God forbid, OKC becomes Morlock City. ;-)

Incase you don't know, the whole week here is highs in the upper 70's and although it's somewhat humid, I guarantee you people are taking advantage of the warm temps and walking the sidewalks downtown.

Downtown Jax doesn't have enough people on the street as it is, we sure don't need to be taking what little foot traffic we have and spreading it across 2 leves. If built I am sure people would use it, and street level buinesses that rely on foot traffic would go out of business.

The Underground was kinda diasspointing to me. Ive heard all the cool things about it over the years and now there seems not to be much of anything down there.

The only time I have been in it was during the Runderground 5k that was through the tunnels, but I only saw 1 or 2 storefronts down there and it was mainly a lot of hanging pictures and neon lights.

I would love to see it developed more, having some small local shops and quick food establishments.

I would love to see it developed more, having some small local shops and quick food establishments.

Wouldn't you rather see that at the street level?

Downtown Jax doesn't have enough people on the street as it is, we sure don't need to be taking what little foot traffic we have and spreading it across 2 leves. If built I am sure people would use it, and street level buinesses that rely on foot traffic would go out of business.

Yeah, I don't really know all that much about J'ville but theoretically and hypothetically you're agreeing. I agree with you. I enjoy seeing the foot traffic.

Now that I actually think about, with few exceptions - downtown is nearly completely void of any business whose doors open to the sidewalk. Maybe that is the missing ingredient.

Portland, Oregon is an example of a city that requires retail uses on street level. No offices.

Portland, Oregon is an example of a city that requires retail uses on street level. No offices.

Granted I don't live in OKC so it is hard to tell, but going off memory and Google StreetView there just are not many doors (retail, office, or otherwise) that open to the sidewalk. Even if retail was mandated, most access would be through building lobbies.

You're right that not a lot do open to the sidewalk. The few that do are generally retail/restaurant/financial. Reatail tenants would demand sidewalk entrances where possible.

this should change, more storefronts and more with their own door (hence, dictating their own hours....)

Filled with sand or not - I hope no one finds it. It is not part of symbiotic relationship with the sidewalk. It is actually killing the host. Sandridge spends untold millions on a new corporate plaza - and then connects to the underground.

The underground and individual entrances seems unlikely to be blamed for killing the host (hampering growth even seems arguable), the initial build out that made the underground a system was a response to the decay of the migration of people and stores out of downtown. The lack of individual entrances seems more a function of changes of building design past the 50s/60s and were built as islands to them self mixed with wholesale destruction of older buildings.

Somehow I think you would manage to adjust and the street life in OKC would be better for it. But alas, it isn't going to be closed so it doesn't matter.


So you really think there would be some big benefit in making people walk 3-4 blocks in the rain? What kind of street traffic is that? They will be hurrying to get to where they are going! Not strolling along adding to whatever you think the benefit would be. Trust me, people only use it regularly in bad weather. It doesn't pull from the 'street traffic' any other times.

So you really think there would be some big benefit in making people walk 3-4 blocks in the rain? What kind of street traffic is that? They will be hurrying to get to where they are going! Not strolling along adding to whatever you think the benefit would be. Trust me, people only use it regularly in bad weather. It doesn't pull from the 'street traffic' any other times.

Kerry, isn't big on practicality. He also wants everyone to be going to work on bicycles when it's raining or snowing.

So you really think there would be some big benefit in making people walk 3-4 blocks in the rain? What kind of street traffic is that? They will be hurrying to get to where they are going! Not strolling along adding to whatever you think the benefit would be. Trust me, people only use it regularly in bad weather. It doesn't pull from the 'street traffic' any other times.

So why do you think downtown is void of people on the street despite 25,000 people working in the central business district?

Sid, I understand what you're saying but, even though you can't make a blanket statement about everyone, I suspect that many people in Seattle would prefer to walk from point A to point B and stay dry if given a chance. I have no doubt that not having an underground system would put more people on the sidewalks but I think in OKC the difference would be minimal in the central business district. You certainly don't see a lot of shopping or dining options in the underground which would siphon activity from the sidewalks. Obviously having something like that in Deep Deuce or Bricktown would be drastically different.

Thanks for the assist Sid. About four months ago I was walking in Philadelphia and it started raining. Unfortunately I wasn't carrying an umbrella so I made my way back to the hotel by stopping in businesses everytime I felt the rain picking up. I probably stopped and milled about in 5 or 6 stores - one of which happen to be an Army/Nave Surplus store I found after cutting though Macy's. I bought several items in there. I probably would have never stopped in there if it hadn't been raining.

Kerry, obviously you have a lot more spare time than most downtown workers. LOL

Kerry, obviously you have a lot more spare time than most downtown workers. LOL

I don't spend 1 to 2 hours of my day driving to/from work. So that is 10 saved hours right there. Not bad considering that is 25% of a 40 hour work week.

So why do you think downtown is void of people on the street despite 25,000 people working in the central business district?

And you think they are all in the tunnels? What about skybridges between buildings? Are they a problem too that we must get rid of so we can force everyone on the sidewalks?

And you think they are all in the tunnels? What about skybridges between buildings? Are they a problem too that we must get rid of so we can force everyone on the sidewalks?

I thought I did include the elevated portion in my original comment. The reality is downtown OKC has a limited number of pedestrians and spreading those pedestrian across three levels of elevation doesn't help attract businesses that would otherwise support them if they were concentrated on one level. Imagine if Crossroads closed off the second level and had all the businesses and shoppers just on the first level. It would look pretty busy compared to what they have now.

Kerry, I don't pretend to have the answers but the negligeable amount of traffic that avoids the sidewalks by using the underground system it hardly the reason that OKC does not have a lot of shops in the CBD.

How many people a week use the Underground? Either a lot of people are using it which justifies the cost of maintenance and comes at the expense of sidewalk traffic, or no one is using it so closing it shouldn't impact anyone. You can't have it both ways.

Although I have fond memories of roaming the corridors in the eighties, it is the fact that I COULD roam into Bank offices and Corporations that I think troubles most building owners. I think most view the underground as a further security risk...another entrance to monitor. Therefore I think more will consider closing it off. Who wants to deal with meanderers that don’t belong there?
Having said that, I thought it was unique. It was cool that you could stay in The Sheridan hotel, or work at Sonic, then go to the small mall on the first floor of what I think was city place or first national, or to the restaurants in the concourse for a bite to eat by using the tunnels and skywalks. Certainly a unique element that many of the larger cities have. I think because the larger cities that OKC is trying to emulate that the tunnels should left there. But, I can see why building owners like Devon will likely want to terminate direct access to their buildings in order to monitor traffic in and out of buildings. If the access terminated just outside the facilities with above ground access, maybe that would be more acceptable.
Two other obstacles: 1) OKC is looking for a more visible vibrancy downtown. Foot traffic supported by retail combined with business. But, Rockefeller in NYC, and downtown Ft Worth have proven that either or both above ground and below ground retail access can be successful. I suppose it needs to take on a life of its own. Maybe a successful underground in OKC will require several shops that will not only have street facing entrances, but alternate access below from the tunnels...kind of like with retail at the canal.
2) Will this hurt OKC's future transit plans (Streetcar, rails...whatever may be)? While I think it could be helpful as OKC grows with activity downtown should several parking garages in downtown be connected with attractions such as conventions, arenas and museums, I think most supporting the rails would go out of their way to end the concourse so that their idea becomes more important.
I think there are positives and negatives with the concourse.
Personally I think it should stay. But I wouldn’t want it to be just a viaduct- Like, just a tunnel from a garage to the Cox center. With careful thought of integration with surface to underground connections I think it could be a VERY UNIQUE attraction in and of itself to visitors AND businesses and to building owners that convert into residential.

I think it could be a VERY UNIQUE attraction in and of itself to visitors AND businesses and to building owners that convert into residential.

First of all I am very glad you used the words "very unique." Yeah, sure, some other cities have underground tunnels, but it is more the exception than the rule. And it really is an attraction, some people don't realize this. They think that everything is or should be the way they see it and no other opinion matters. The problem is most if not ALL of those that think like that have very little interaction with people in the downtown area, particularly visitors. Very frequently I get customers who ask what there is to do in the area. I have a very long list of things to tell them, but in many cases they have been here for a few days and they have already seen Bricktown and been on the Water Taxi and seen the Land Run Monument, and now they are bored. In the past we have had some employees that would suggest the Zoo and Penn Square Mall because they simply didn't know what else to say (don't worry Chad, they are gone). I always tried to give them more localized options. One reason is that those people are usually here for a few days on buisness and don't have transportation, they need someplace they can walk to. Alot of these people want to go to the Memorial, but they just need the motovation. A great itenerary for them outside of Bricktown is to go to the Myrian Gardens, then walk along the Underground to the Memorial, check out the Memorial and the Museum. If they choose this, I always encourage them to walk back on street level and take in some of the cool archetecture and public art in the CBD. That can be streched out to a whole day, and I have had those visitors come back either later that day or the next day and thank me because they had no idea how cool OKC was. There have been times where we have had the OKC AtoZ dvd playing, and as luck would have it, the segment on the underground comes on as we are talking about it. The customers pretty much always think it looks really cool. And, as I said, I always encourage them to walk back on the street level, so, in this case, these visitors experiance street level OKC much more than they would otherwise, BECAUSE of the Underground. Without the Underground, they might just hop on the Trolley to get to the Memorial.

The point is, treating the Underground as an attraction can acctually benifet the city and the visitors. It can be so much more than just an underground walkway, it just needs to be marketed better. I also think there should be MORE historc photos, really make it like a free museum of progress and archetecture.

My eighth grade English teacher would point out that there are no degrees of uniqueness; something is either one-of-a-kind or it is not. Sorry to digress. Carry on.

So why do you think downtown is void of people on the street despite 25,000 people working in the central business district?

Since most of those are just their to work they will go strait to/from their car before, after work and lunch are the only times they may be seen. However that number is higher than what you will see due to several of the largest buildings have a parking garage attached to the office building and most have an option to park less than a block away.

Outside of more high dense residential units in the CBD, shops and restaurants there seem likely to be limited primarily to those that can make it catering to lunchtime crowds, of which only a percentage will to draw people in from outside the CBD in the evening.

My eighth grade English teacher would point out that there are no degrees of uniqueness; something is either one-of-a-kind or it is not. Sorry to digress. Carry on.

The uniqueness I was talking about wasn't the Underground itself, but what could be done with it. I was kind of piggy backing on what BigD Misey was saying about it becoming an attraction... I really wasn't clear about that... my apologies

Since most of those are just their to work they will go strait to/from their car before, after work and lunch are the only times they may be seen. However that number is higher than what you will see due to several of the largest buildings have a parking garage attached to the office building and most have an option to park less than a block away.

Outside of more high dense residential units in the CBD, shops and restaurants there seem likely to be limited primarily to those that can make it catering to lunchtime crowds, of which only a percentage will to draw people in from outside the CBD in the evening.

Very good points

How many people a week use the Underground? Either a lot of people are using it which justifies the cost of maintenance and comes at the expense of sidewalk traffic, or no one is using it so closing it shouldn't impact anyone. You can't have it both ways.

I have no idea of the exact numbers but that's hardly having it both ways. I'm sure the usage is much higher on days with inclimate weather. Do you have figures on how many people need to use it to justify maintenance costs? I didn't think so. The underground is not the reason for any lack of retail along the sidewalks of the central business district. Where is all of the retail in the Underground system which has all of that foot traffic? They could shut it down completely tomorrow and not one person would say, WOW, I need to open up a new shop now.

In 2005 about $1.9 million was spent to re-open it. According to the attached document the City alone expected to contribute $74,000 per year for maintenance as just one of the property owners along the route. I can't find any usage numbers.

http://www.okc.gov/council/council_library/packet/051101/VIII%20C.pdf

So why do you think downtown is void of people on the street despite 25,000 people working in the central business district?

drive around downtown from 11-2 .. there are lots and lots of people on the street

The uniqueness I was talking about wasn't the Underground itself, but what could be done with it. I was kind of piggy backing on what BigD Misey was saying about it becoming an attraction... I really wasn't clear about that... my apologies
I'm just yanking your chain, Batman.

In 2005 about $1.9 million was spent to re-open it. According to the attached document the City alone expected to contribute $74,000 per year for maintenance as just one of the property owners along the route. I can't find any usage numbers.

http://www.okc.gov/council/council_library/packet/051101/VIII%20C.pdf
Not to re-open, that was a remodel. The tunnels have never been out of use, other when section under a vacant building has been closed off from the rest of the network.

Not to re-open, that was a remodel. The tunnels have never been out of use, other when section under a vacant building has been closed off from the rest of the network.

I seem to recall that it was actually closed (meaning a person couldn't walk the entire length). But yes, parts have always been open as they not only connect buildings, but go through them as well. Does anyone know how many business open directlly to the conncourse path?

I dont know if its still accurate, but...heres one.(?)

http://okc.about.com/library/UGMAP.pdf


http://okc.about.com/od/oklahomacityglossary/g/conncourse.htm

Here is a more recent rendering though it is the same structures, the visual difference is some of the access points were not highlighted on the other. http://www.downtownokc.com/Portals/1/PDF/BID_service_map_05.pdf

The connection with Devon tower and whatever Sandridge is doing with their part is only the new major changes in several years.

I seem to recall that it was actually closed (meaning a person couldn't walk the entire length). But yes, parts have always been open as they not only connect buildings, but go through them as well. Does anyone know how many business open directlly to the conncourse path?
No, portions may have been temporarily closed for construction during the remodel, but the current walkable portions are virtually unchanged over the past 20 plus years that I have been downtown, save the following:


Portion connecting to Murrah Building closed after bombing
Portion connecting to Skirvin (about 50-75 feet) re-opened when Skirvin reopened
Several buildings closed (including some now in Sandridge campus), causing stubs to those buildings to be sealed

Not sure on number of businesses connecting. It certainly in the dozens, especially if you count those "in the path" like Teena Hicks and First National Arcade, which - while they are technically in the buildings - are designed to interact with Conncourse traffic and rely heavily on it for their customers.

No, portions may have been temporarily closed for construction during the remodel, but the current walkable portions are virtually unchanged over the past 20 plus years that I have been downtown, save the following:


Portion connecting to Murrah Building closed after bombing
Portion connecting to Skirvin (about 50-75 feet) re-opened when Skirvin reopened
Several buildings closed (including some now in Sandridge campus), causing stubs to those buildings to be sealed

Not sure on number of businesses connecting. It certainly in the dozens, especially if you count those "in the path" like Teena Hicks and First National Arcade, which - while they are technically in the buildings - are designed to interact with Conncourse traffic and rely heavily on it for their customers.

Thanks - I was thinking about the Skirvin connection. So it seems safe to say that more retail in the downtown core opens to the Conncourse than it does to the sidewalk.

It was a New Urbanism Christmas for me so I thought I would share this page from The Smart Growth Manual.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/SidewalkSubstitutes_zps52db987e.jpg

New Orleans has many months of miserable weather? I never knew.

New Orleans has many months of miserable weather? I never knew.

Their summers are pretty hot and sticky from what I have heard. Have never been there, myself, though.

Their summers are pretty hot and sticky from what I have heard. Have never been there, myself, though.

That would hardly qualify for many months of miserable weather that would make people want to flock to tunnels or skywalks. Their weather isn't any more miserable than Houston or many other cities along the coast. I understand the Quebec reference (although Montreal with similar weather has had an extensive underground system for many years) but New Orleans isn't a good example.

I think the authors weere going for the two extremes - 'sever cold and wind' and 'hot and humid'. The conncourse and skywalk supporters say the system is most useful during the weather extremes, but the city and downtown businesses suffer every other day of the year. On my walking tour last Friday (temps in the low 60s) I took note of the lack of people on Park Ave vs. the large number of people crowding the FNC arcade. The problem with that is when FNC closes for the night the businesses also shut down because there is no time diversity to keep them open. However, the big problem is still the spreading of people on three horizontal planes and the ones at ground level are hidden in interior corridors.

I think the authors weere going for the two extremes - 'sever cold and wind' and 'hot and humid'. The conncourse and skywalk supporters say the system is most useful during the weather extremes, but the city and downtown businesses suffer every other day of the year. On my walking tour last Friday (temps in the low 60s) I took note of the lack of people on Park Ave vs. the large number of people crowding the FNC arcade. The problem with that is when FNC closes for the night the businesses also shut down because there is no time diversity to keep them open. However, the big problem is still the spreading of people on three horizontal planes and the ones at ground level are hidden in interior corridors.

Those seem like secondary issues to the population density downtown is only now even approaching that of the average suburb after decades of it being far lower. When people are only downtown to work it kills a lot of demand outside of day hours as they are not going to do as much shopping or non-lunch meals. Limited middle and lower priced housing downtown is going to make labor costs higher further marginalizing non-peak hours.

I agree snowman, which is why I think the downtown community would be better served by keeping everyone who is downtown on the same horizontal plane. A business that is open 8 to 5 might be able to stay open until 8PM if they have direct access to the sidewalk and can set their own hours. This in turn will encourage more people to live near by if they know they have access (even limited access) to after-5PM amenities.

I live and work downtown and use the underground frequently. I would be truly upset if it was closed down. The truth of the matter is that closing the underground will in no way impact how late business stay open. They either do stay open or they don't.

It is really pretty simple Lindsey. Businesses need customers. When you separate customers on multiple levels it reduces the number of people who walk by the front door. When that front door is located along a path that is only used between 8AM and 5PM - the Conncourse, the business closes at 5PM whether they want to or not. If the business is located inside another building and is not visible from the street it also closes when the office workers go home. This isn't rocket science or some crazy idea; it is how downtown retail operates in every town and city America that doesn't have skywalks and underground since the dawn of time.

The plan for retail is really very simple. Put all the people on the same plane as the front door and have that front door open to the sidewalk. At some point in the future when downtown has 50,000 full time residents the Conncourse might be okay.

According to the website it is open weekdays from 6AM - 8PM, and I know I have used parts of it outside of those hours. If there were more full time residents then the hours would have a good chance of being extended to at 11 PM-ish if not 24/7.

Do you know if any stores are open till 8PM.

I do not remember any that close near eight, most of the ones I remember close hours for downtown are more toward 5:00PM or 10:00PM

It would be nice to get some usage numbers for the Conncourse and a comprehensive retail survey of downtown (address, front door location, hours of operation, etc...).

It would be nice to get some usage numbers for the Conncourse and a comprehensive retail survey of downtown (address, front door location, hours of operation, etc...).

A comprehensive survey of CBD retail is very short. The Underground has zero retail establishments, but at least five stores have no sidewalk access (mostly in the FNC Arcade). The only retail open past 6:00 is the FedEx on Robinson. I count it as retail because of the floor space dedicated to office supplies. The only retail open weekends is the OKC MOA store. The following is a list of CBD retail, which I'm defining as a place to buy a widget, and excludes food and services:

A Story of Hope [M-F 9:00 – 5:00?]
BC Clark - M-S 9:30-5:30 - Closed Sundays
Becky’s Hallmark – M-F 8:30-5:00
Dr. Computers [M-F 9:00 – 5:00?]
Floral and Hardy (Oklahoma Tower Location) - 9am-5:00pm Mon-Fri
FedEx Office – M-F 7:30 a - 9:00 p
Nancy Farha’s – 9:30-5:30
OKC MOA Store – Monday 10 a.m.–3 p.m. Tuesday–Saturday 10 a.m.–5 p.m. Sunday Noon–5 p.m.
Teena Hicks - Monday-Friday: 9-6 Saturday: 10-1
The Medicine Cabinet – M-F 8:30-5:30
The Thunder Shop (Leadership) – M-F 11:00-5:30
The Thunder Shop (Arena) M-F 10:00-6:00
Tinder Box – M-F 8:30-5:00
Ton Papier – M-F 9:00-5:00
Triangle A&E M-F 8:00-5:00

The bracketed times are not confirmed.

Thanks Mr Cotter. Maybe we should expand the definition of downtown to include Bricktown, Deep Deuce, Midtown, and Automobile Alley. I would like to see how the Conncourse is impacting retail downtown vs. the areas directly adjacent to it. I would also include food and professional services.

Only thing I hate about the underground is between the FNC and the Chase tower underground where there is a single door. Wish it were a door going in each direction (push and pull) so that it would be easy to get past.

I've worked downtown since I graduated from school and I hate the conncourse. I don't use it unless it's really pouring or something, which is about twice a year. One issue the ladies in my office always bring up is the wind. It can be brutal, especially around Liberty (err Chase err Cotter Ranch) Tower. Skirts are a problem, as is hair, for them in the wind. I know folks that never go outside during the day. Garage to car to parking garage to conncourse to office to conncourse to lunch to conncourse to office to conncourse to car to garage. That would make me insane, but a lot of downtown workers work that way.

One bit of evidence that retail is suffering downtown because of lack of street traffic is the First National concourse. Though above ground, it's really a part of the Conncourse and retail does OK in there because people are walking through there all the time. Other places, not so much.

I'd love it if the conncourse were closed, but that's not likely to happen.

Instead of trying to force people to do something, why not just offer shopping worth going out for? Instead of this idea of trying to command people do as you say, try offering things worth changing habits for.

Instead of trying to force people to do something, why not just offer shopping worth going out for? This idea of trying to command people do as you say, try offering things worth changing habits for.

Because in order to entice retail you have to have customers. The Conncourse and skywalks are distributing those people across three horizontal planes. You have to close them to concentrate the customers on the sidewalk.

Because in order to entice retail you have to have customers. The Conncourse and skywalks are distributing those people across three horizontal planes. You have to close them to concentrate the customers on the sidewalk.

The customers are there. If you can't offer them something worth going shopping for, don't blame them. Don't try to force them just because YOU believe they should be forced to think like you. Give them a reason. You disrespect their free choice. I know you think everyone else is stupid, but they aren't.