I was told there was a meeting today and yesterday I double-checked the City's system and there was no sign of it.

This morning, it was listed.


They are required to provide 48-hour notice.

I'm glad that the Planning Commissioners won't let Couch & Co. push them around and will allow further transparency for the CC site to continue. I hope a new site is chosen, so we can see some private urban development downtown to front the new boulevard.

I was told there was a meeting today and yesterday I double-checked the City's system and there was no sign of it.

This morning, it was listed.


They are required to provide 48-hour notice.


Was it perhaps posted timely somewhere other than the web? When I worked with a state agency that had a board, for many years the agency did not have a web site. Meeting agendas were posted at the agency HQ and whereever the board was physically going to meet.

I'm glad that the Planning Commissioners won't let Couch & Co. push them around and will allow further transparency for the CC site to continue. I hope a new site is chosen, so we can see some private urban development downtown to front the new boulevard.

the planning commissioners have nothing to do with the site selection .... the CC can go there right now ... the only issue would be .. if the the planning commission doesn't pass that item and then the city has to use ED to get the site they would have a future issue if they allowed private business to operate there

they would not have that issue if that came to an agreement .. to buy the site ...

also of note is that they don't really need the planning commission approval .. they could vote it down and then the city council could approve it any way ..

Was it perhaps posted timely somewhere other than the web? When I worked with a state agency that had a board, for many years the agency did not have a web site. Meeting agendas were posted at the agency HQ and whereever the board was physically going to meet.

There is that chance. The official post board is outside of Council Chambers. That is where the City Clerk posts all notices. She is extremely thorough regarding that, I'll give her that.

NOW, whether or not that is enough nowadays is a separate topic. :)

the planning commissioners have nothing to do with the site selection .... the CC can go there right now ... the only issue would be .. if the the planning commission doesn't pass that item and then the city has to use ED to get the site they would have a future issue if they allowed private business to operate there

they would not have that issue if that came to an agreement .. to buy the site ...

also of note is that they don't really need the planning commission approval .. they could vote it down and then the city council could approve it any way ..

from the story



The first public hint of a challenge to this process emerged last month when planning commissioners refused to approve an amendment to Urban Renewal's acquisition plan for the area that would allow for the purchase of the dealership site.

Read more: MAPS 3 convention center site is being questioned | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/maps-3-convention-center-site-is-being-questioned/article/3712898#ixzz27UvoIfrp)

The item was not posted online until after I called the city about it yesterday.

from the story

thank you...I have came to realize that most people on this site really don't know whats really going on...

The item was not posted online until after I called the city about it yesterday.

Thanks for doing that. I did the same with the Downtown Design Review Committee a few months ago.

And even after posted, the CC agenda was completely empty of any real information (files to be added later). These things cause me to be concerned about how this group is going about it's business.

from the story

did you read what i wrote .. all the approval of the "amendment to Urban Renewal's acquisition plan" does is allow the city to allow private sector business on property acquired by eminent domain

it has nothing to do with the acquisition of the property or the site selection for the CC it has to do with stopping a possible lawsuit if the property is EDed and then used for a hotel

All I know is the planning commission didn't approve the amendment and now Urban Renewal can't buy the land.

All I know is the planning commission didn't approve the amendment and now Urban Renewal can't buy the land.

umm .. the city can still buy the land .. and has most likely already made an offer on the land ..

All I know is the planning commission didn't approve the amendment and now Urban Renewal can't buy the land.

The article says that they can move forward with buying the land. I think it was a Jim Couch quote.

EDIT:


City Manager Jim Couch, meanwhile, responds that property acquisition is moving forward as planned, that there is no effort to reopen the convention center site consideration.

Maybe so, but yet, here we are.

Maybe so, but yet, here we are.

Trust me, I want them to be stalled and select another site...but it's not my call...It appears it's not even the citizens' call at this point.

I'm not going to say this is a lie...


City Manager Jim Couch, meanwhile, responds that property acquisition is moving forward as planned, that there is no effort to reopen the convention center site consideration.

...but that can mean different things to different people. Maybe Jim Couch should publicly share the acquistion plan so we can all be aware of just how 'forward' things are progressing and if they are still going as 'planned'. As for 'no effort to reopen the convention center site consideration', I offer this:



In delaying consideration again last week, Planning Commissioner Bob Bright argued he was unaware of the deliberations that led to the site choice and was too unfamiliar with the process to give his approval. Another planning commissioner, John Yoeckel, asked that more time be given to allow for recently hired consultants to look at how the convention center site, future park site and a new streetcar system would all fit together to ensure the proper locations were chosen.



Read more: MAPS 3 convention center site is being questioned | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/maps-3-convention-center-site-is-being-questioned/article/3712898#ixzz27VQLEozr)

In order for a snowball to gain momentum you first need snow, and it is piled up high around this project.

on edit - let me also add:



Behind the scenes, several prominent players in the downtown business and development community have discussed whether the site chosen was indeed the best choice. They are revisiting the merits of the second-ranked site — one in southeast Bricktown on the site of the Chickasaw Bricktown Ballpark parking lot, the Bricktown Event Center and part of the Stewart Metal Fabricators site.



Read more: http://newsok.com/maps-3-convention-center-site-is-being-questioned/article/3712898#ixzz27VUu2ect

do you even understand what the planning commission vote was about??

it was so IF OCURA has to get the land via eminent domain the city can rent/lease part of the land to a private entity ..ie a hotel flower shop cafe ect ... that is the ONLY REASON for the planning commission vote ...

with out that vote .. the city can still buy the land ... and the city could even ED the land ... .

Well clearly we know it isn't moving forward as planned. If the planning commission doesn't approve it then that means no convention hotel attached, no park front or boulevard front retail, no restaurants, etc. That seems like a show-stopper to me.

It was listed in the MAPS 3 Board agenda (but not the CC subcommittee's) that they have selected Populous / GSB to perform the CC Conceptual Study.

Well clearly we know it isn't moving forward as planned. If the planning commission doesn't approve it then that means no convention hotel attached, no park front or boulevard front retail, no restaurants, etc. That seems like a show-stopper to me.

good point...

Well clearly we know it isn't moving forward as planned. If the planning commission doesn't approve it then that means no convention hotel attached, no park front or boulevard front retail, no restaurants, etc. That seems like a show-stopper to me.

no it means it will go to the city council with a negative recommendation from the Planning commission .. and the city council will then pass it ..

Oklahoma City convention center designer chosen, site will remain south of Myriad Gardens

The citizens committee tasked with guiding development of a new convention center is sticking with a site chosen south of the Myriad Gardens after hearing a proposal that the location be reconsidered.


Read more: Oklahoma City convention center designer chosen, site will remain south of Myriad Gardens | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-convention-center-designer-chosen-site-will-remain-south-of-myriad-gardens/article/3713093#ixzz27aF4TxYg)

Oklahoma City convention center designer chosen, site will remain south of Myriad Gardens

The citizens committee tasked with guiding development of a new convention center is sticking with a site chosen south of the Myriad Gardens after hearing a proposal that the location be reconsidered.


Read more: Oklahoma City convention center designer chosen, site will remain south of Myriad Gardens | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-convention-center-designer-chosen-site-will-remain-south-of-myriad-gardens/article/3713093#ixzz27aF4TxYg)

Still needs the City Council approval, will our City Council do the right thing and recommend a new site? Or we they let L.Nichols and Co. impose their will, and leave it south of the Myriad Gardens? They might as well call it the Devon Energy Convention Center.

I have told anyone who would listen the last year that this debate is far from settled. I know my ideal site on Tenth is a long shot, however, I bet the Bricktown site becomes the non-establishment favorite very,mvery quickly. Makes too much sense. Way too much.

What 10th St site are you talking about, Spartan?

Oklahoma City convention center designer chosen, site will remain south of Myriad Gardens

The citizens committee tasked with guiding development of a new convention center is sticking with a site chosen south of the Myriad Gardens after hearing a proposal that the location be reconsidered.


Read more: Oklahoma City convention center designer chosen, site will remain south of Myriad Gardens | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-convention-center-designer-chosen-site-will-remain-south-of-myriad-gardens/article/3713093#ixzz27aF4TxYg)

Smoke and mirrors Pete - the Citizens Committe IS the MAPS III Convention Center Committee so big surprise they still want the Ford site - we already knew that. The problem is they still can't afford it. They can spin it however they want but the fact is they are reviewing the location.



The committee and city staffers did agree, however, to add into the Populous contract that the firm assess costs and feasibility with the dealership site as one of their first tasks.

So what happens if Populous comes back and says it isn't feasable (which we all know it isn't)? I think certain members of the Committee are setting it up to give themselves an out without it looking like they are second guessing themselves.

Smoke and mirrors Pete - the Citizens Committe IS the MAPS III Convention Center Committee so big surprise they still want the Ford site - we already knew that. The problem is they still can't afford it. They can spin it however they want but the fact is they are reviewing the location.



So what happens if Populous comes back and says it isn't feasable (which we all know it isn't)? I think certain members of the Committee are setting it up to give themselves an out without it looking like they are second guessing themselves.

the city will do a land swap and keep that as the site ..

I have told anyone who would listen the last year that this debate is far from settled. I know my ideal site on Tenth is a long shot, however, I bet the Bricktown site becomes the non-establishment favorite very,mvery quickly. Makes too much sense. Way too much.

the bricktown site does not make sense from a cost standpoint .. or a 30 story hotel stand point ..


if it gets moved (i don't think it will) it will go back to the mayors site

Still needs the City Council approval, will our City Council do the right thing and recommend a new site? Or we they let L.Nichols and Co. impose their will, and leave it south of the Myriad Gardens? They might as well call it the Devon Energy Convention Center.

I think there is a high degree of likelihood that is what it will be called one day. Someone commented to me not very long ago there has already been off the record discussions that Devon has let it be known they are prepared to pay for the naming rights one day. I do not put much weight into a rumor like that, but it makes logical sense in my mind that could happen. When the day comes to discuss naming rights, the City will obviously open it up and make it a competitive business deal, but I don't think it's not too farfetched to think there might have already been some discussions with Devon in that regard. If Devon was highly interested, I could see the City feeling they owe it to Devon because of P180 and all, and, I could see Devon very much wanting the naming rights since Ches has the arena. This is just a hypothetically question, but if this were the case, could the city have some ballpark idea as to how much naming rights would equate to, and, could some of those monies be used to help stretch the budget? I think it is safe to say that if it were to be named after Devon, Larry Nichols would likely not allow the facility to be reduced in scope or in quality.

A few recent CC naming right deals include Tulsa which just inked a deal with Cox, Delta just inked a deal for the Milwaukee CC, but only for 1 year, and a couple of months ago, Phoenix hired a consultant to help market the naming rights for their CC.

the city will do a land swap and keep that as the site ..

Maybe - but they still have to find a way to keep from putting loading docks along MBG, the new boulevard, or the arena. They can't put them on the west side because that is the expansion side.

I don't really see anything wrong with Devon buying the naming rights. I am sure that there will be a hefty price tag and there are only a hand full of local companies that could do it.

I don't really see anything wrong with Devon buying the naming rights. I am sure that there will be a hefty price tag and there are only a hand full of local companies that could do it.

Perhaps Devon, Chesapeake, and SandRidge could combine forces and this could be called the
'DevoChesaRidge Convention Center'. :wink:

Maybe - but they still have to find a way to keep from putting loading docks along MBG, the new boulevard, or the arena. They can't put them on the west side because that is the expansion side.

If the exhibition hall is below ground level the loading docks will probably be below ground level and covered. The loading dock for the arena is below ground level but only partially covered.

Or how about this... assume that Devon does get the naming rights. Then, using the mayor's naming proclivities, we could call it the 'Oklahoma City Home Of the Thunder Devon Energy Convention Center'
OKCHOTDECC

(then locals could call it the "hot deck")

If the exhibition hall is below ground level the loading docks will probably be below ground level and covered. The loading dock for the arena is below ground level but only partially covered.

So how do you get a semi 40 feet underground? Are they going to do one of those long ramps like lilke the Arena has - only longer and deeper? Where does that go, along the boulevard or MBG?

has anyone else ever been to Moscone Center in San Fran? i was there all this last week, and never saw a loading dock once that i recall... i'm sure for Moscone West it is down the alley to the north. but they have several exhibit halls and ballrooms underground, and there are not ridiculous loading dock areas that i saw that were visible. In fact the largest ballroom they have, sits right under Howard street. If they are able to do this and not have any serious eyesore loading docks, why can't ours?

has anyone else ever been to Moscone Center in San Fran? i was there all this last week, and never saw a loading dock once that i recall... i'm sure for Moscone West it is down the alley to the north. but they have several exhibit halls and ballrooms underground, and there are not ridiculous loading dock areas that i saw that were visible. In fact the largest ballroom they have, sits right under Howard street. If they are able to do this and not have any serious eyesore loading docks, why can't ours?

They are on 3rd St for enterance and 4th st for the exit. If you go to Google Earth street view you can see 5 trucks parked in the street waiting to unload (and what looks like a 6th truck waiting on the other side of the intersection). For Moscone West the enterance is right on Howard.

Can it be done - yes. Can it be done for $250 million and look good against an new boulevard and MBG - we will soon find out.

They are on 3rd St. If you go to Google Earth street view you can see 5 trucks parked in the street waiting to unload (and what looks like a 6th truck waiting on the other side of the intersection).

still not a giant eyesore. done quite nice actually

It can be done. Remember that they will have six blocks to work with. Devon also has underground loading docks. Raleigh's convention center has a fully covered loading dock that is accessed from the park accross the street. There is enough ROW for them to use the arena ramp and continue it under Robinson.

Having the loading docks underground is not a problem. Are they a challenge?, yes costly?, they can be, probably more than just backing up a semi off the street, but going underground with multiple semi's is very doable. The Chamber toured Charolette's CC which has 20 loading docks underground. They loved that particular set up. It's an underground drive through system in which the semi's enter on one side and exit the other. They onlt seen from the street exiting and leaving. They never have to turn around. They pull down a ramp into a linear tunnel and then pull up to whatever dock is adjacent to the hall in which the load is needed. This maximizes the flexibility and allows several simultaneous shows/exibits to take place. There are no issues with temorary disruptions, lengthy travel distance of heavy loads, or long unloading/loading times.

But I doubt the cost for underground docks is low. Why spend money you don't have to? There are better locations that would likely allow more money to be spent on the building, rather than hiding loading docks. That's unless we have data that shows that multiple shows with semis full of stuff are fighting for the same time slots in Oklahoma City

The Chamber toured Charolette's CC which has 20 loading docks underground.

Please don't use the Charlotte Convention Center to persuade anyone. Charlotte spends $30 million a year to service the debt on their vastly underperforming convention center.

Selling Charlotte: Convention business requires millions from taxpayers | CharlotteObserver.com (http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/08/20/3464298/cost-of-convention.html)

Please don't use the Charlotte Convention Center to persuade anyone. Charlotte spends $30 million a year to service the debt on their vastly underperforming convention center.

Selling Charlotte: Convention business requires millions from taxpayers | CharlotteObserver.com (http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/08/20/3464298/cost-of-convention.html)

Not surprising. Wake up Mike Carrier and Roy Williams!

It can be done. Remember that they will have six blocks to work with. Devon also has underground loading docks. Raleigh's convention center has a fully covered loading dock that is accessed from the park accross the street. There is enough ROW for them to use the arena ramp and continue it under Robinson.

It would have to turn to the south and go under the boulevard or right beside it to avoid hitting underground piers that I imagine were put in to support the grand entrance. Thats a good size tunnel they would need to build.

How much space does the exbition hall need? The more complex an underground loading facility is, the more underground space it steals.

How much space does the exbition hall need? The more complex an underground loading facility is, the more underground space it steals.

I assume it would need to be bigger than what is already available at COX, otherwise, what the hell are we doing building a smaller convention center to attract bigger conventions? COX has 100,000 sq feet of contiguous exhibition space.

Please don't use the Charlotte Convention Center to persuade anyone. Charlotte spends $30 million a year to service the debt on their vastly underperforming convention center.

Selling Charlotte: Convention business requires millions from taxpayers | CharlotteObserver.com (http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/08/20/3464298/cost-of-convention.html)


of course they do ... that is why our system is better .... we won't have any debt on our CC

of course they do ... that is why our system is better .... we won't have any debt on our CC

Actually, I mis-quoted them. Only about $20 million is used to service the debt, the other $10 million is to cover operating losses and direct payments to conventions to lure them to Charlotte. Plus, the room-night estimates are coming in 75% below estimates.


When the Convention Center was being planned, it was forecast to produce 528,800 hotel-room nights a year to fulfill its mission of putting “heads in beds.”
It has never come close to that.
In fiscal year 2011, it produced 142,000 room nights

Read more here: Selling Charlotte: Convention business requires millions from taxpayers | CharlotteObserver.com (http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/08/20/3464298/cost-of-convention.html#storylink=cpy)

We desperately need improvements in downtown attractions to even attract more people to OKC for conventions: I'd like to say more retail, but I almost have to say some retail at all, finish the Native American Cultural Center, create an Adventure Line so people can easily get to the Adventure District .....something! There's no way I'd come here for a convention if I lived elsewhere when I can go to cities that have things for me and my family to do.

I am not opposed to a new convention but I sure don't like be lied to by all these projects that will NEVER turn out to be true. I want a new convention center so the Cox site can be redeveloped.

I am not opposed to a new convention but I sure don't like be lied to by all these projects that will NEVER turn out to be true. I want a new convention center so the Cox site can be redeveloped.

How could they lie to you? They have been communicating with the citizens of OKC. I do not think they would go out of their way to lie to someone in florida.

How could they lie to you? They have been communicating with the citizens of OKC. I do not think they would go out of their way to lie to someone in florida.

How do you know where I pay taxes? Anyhow, if you like being lied to more power to you.

How do you know where I pay taxes? Anyhow, if you like being lied to more power to you.


Wow. Are you sneaking back to OKC on a consistent basis to pay sales taxes? I thought possibly you believe you are because of the frequent use of "we" to represent that you are here on the front lines with OKC citizens. Also, I, in no way feel I have been lied to in any form or fashion. Rarely does any plan work out as proposed in government projects and that holds true for federal, state and local governments. If you are not mature enough to know the difference then less power to you providing you had any power to start with. To your credit, at least you didn't say all of this was promised, yet.

Maybe the Chamber should release the Convention Center Study. To bad that wasn't demanded as part of approving a Convention Center in MAPS 3. MAPS 3 passed, the site has been selected, and inital work is being done - there is no point in keeping it a secret now. Besides, releasing it would only shut the detractors up - wouldn't it?

Anyhow - this horse has been beaten to death about 20 times already. So for the 21st time, I am happy to just wait for the cost estimates to come in.

Also, I, in no way feel I have been lied to in any form or fashion. Rarely does any plan work out as proposed in government projects and that holds true for federal, state and local governments. If you are not mature enough to know the difference then less power to you providing you had any power to start with.

Frankly, if government projects at all levels rarely work out as proposed, as you put forth, then that's very clearly a sign of deeper problems. That has absolutely nothing to do with "maturity about knowing the difference." It's about not finding lying, mischaracterizations, and deception acceptable.

I am not opposed to a new convention but I sure don't like be lied to by all these projects that will NEVER turn out to be true. I want a new convention center so the Cox site can be redeveloped.

Applying a reality screen here, I think no one on the Convention Center committee actually believes there will be underground building. This is just the fig leaf being applied to the citizens. Again, for emphasis, there will NOT be underground convention halls. That will be prohibitively expensive, and they are not going to be able to go back to the voters to ask for more dough, because the project itself is so unpopular with voters.

SO, here's what I believe they're doing:

1. They're saying they will build underground to pacify the people who want direct access between the Myriad Gardens and Central Park.
2. They're doing this to also pacify the mayor, who is a big proponent of the park.
3. They're waiting out Mick's term to level with the voters and "change" the plan to include a large convention center dividing the park spaces.
4. They will "announce" the new "recommendations from consultants" once Cornett is out of office, and, citing cost concerns, will suggest putting the convention center on the Fred Jones property and building everything over ground, creating a large barrier between the park spaces.
5. They will come up with a "compromise" by building some kind of flow through or walkway where Harvey is currently.
6. Harvey will be closed.

This is just the cynical side of me speaking, but it is probably what will happen. I know it will be unpopular here but it will be viewed as a "workable solution."

Tell me i'm wrong.

The alternative is worse: bleed funds from other MAPS III projects. But I don't believe they will go there because that would exact too large of a political price, costing council members seats and permanently damaging the MAPS brand.

ON EDIT: Perhaps Larry Nichols is planning to throw them another $240,000,000 and have them name it the Devon Center. Sound outlandish? $240 mil is a rounding error to Devon. They could probably just cut a check for that. The point is, this whole project seems like a fool's errand from the outside looking in, but it's quite possible they've already found alternative funding mechanisms to pay for this and we just don't know. I pose this possibility without condoning the closed-door behavior of the in-crowd. This city still could use a major dose of transparency.

harvey is going to be closed either way . ..

What about hudson if they choose to exercise the "expansion option" to the west of the current site? Will that be closed? that would be a HUGE mistake.

harvey is going to be closed either way . ..

Either way? You mean they will still close Harvey if the convention center is moved elseware?

Either way? You mean they will still close Harvey if the convention center is moved elseware?

no if the convention center is above ground or partially under ground ..

and if the CC is moved elsewhere .. it still might be closed .. but it would depend on what else would be built there