Thanks for all that UP!

Avis Scarrammucci asking about OKC Boulevard potentially being a barrier between sites.

Gee, it's almost like building a highway through downtown immediately after getting rid of the old highway through downtown might be a bad idea in terms of development possibilities. :p

I took the boulevard exit a couple of days ago and all I could think was: 'This is just like what was here before with a lower speed limit.'

It's really bizarre and nonsensical.

It's great for drag racing though! I must say that ODOT has done a dandy job creating an isolated, elevated, double lane to test out muscle cars.

Just re-read the thread and sorry for all of the typos. All done on the phone off the cuff. I felt like an a** typing and looking at my phone the entire time. Love for OKC Talk goes far. lol

Just to reemphasize a few things, apparently the Planning Department was gone to a conference in Seattle. Apparently the Populous folks weren't there either. The most significant elements were the Skirvin/Karchmer deal and Gary Gregory pressing for a meeting with staff to consider the Blumenthal area. Noting on their Facebook page for the "Westpark" concept that they have proactively extended our streetcar line to show how they would see it connecting the area. Obviously there is a cost and route legibility issue with those ideas. TIF? Really curious to see if this consortium of folks has any traction with City Staff... particularly Cathy O'Connor.

Nice reporting!

I bet Populous is content.


:Smiley122

U.P. said Chris Fleming was at the meeting again yesterday.

I'm increasingly sure they are going to end up on the original site and that's already been pretty much pre-decided.

Isn't the price tag for the original site ridiculously expensive?

I don't believe REHCO ever asked for that price.

I don't believe REHCO ever asked for that price.

What price did they ask for?

My understanding it wasn't discussed. City just decided to go the eminent domain route.

My understanding it wasn't discussed. City just decided to go the eminent domain route.

That was kinda my point. It appears that we already know what the market price would be based on what other properties were getting per sq. foot. If we know the market price is x, do you know something about the current owners willing to leave millions on the table? They don't have to ask for anything if they know what they can get for it.

What other properties? Stage Center or just to the south of it?

My understanding is that the City approached REHCO with a low-ball price and then could never get them to counter. So, it went to eminent domain.

During that process, REHCO submitted comps that would have supported a $100 million price tag; at the same time the City was making a case with lower comps.

Since that all blew up and the two sides have cooled off, I believe REHCO has talked to them about what they would accept (something around $30 million) and while that is still well north of MAPS budget, the City has been working on various ways of bridging that gap.


The powerful people involved with this project want that site. I don't think there is another one that is even close to satisfying them. So, with REHCO now willing to negotiate, I think they'll find a way.

Still very uncomfortable that all this is going on completely outside the public meetings, but that's the way this has gone from the outset and there is an argument that complex deals like this can only happen in this way.

The powerful people involved with this project want that site. I don't think there is another one that is even close to satisfying them. So, with REHCO now willing to negotiate, I think they'll find a way.

I think you are right. Rumor has it REHCO is not asking for any reparations for the legal fees (substantial) for defense on the E. domain issue.
I hope they can come to a reasonable agreement, monies, trade or other.

The $30 millions that was to move the substation initially should satisfy the land requirements. Now IIRC the city set aside $13 million for the land purchase for the convention center?

We've got this...

Wasn't REHCO the party that asked for the negotiations to move to e. domain proceedings?

Wasn't REHCO the party that asked for the negotiations to move to e. domain proceedings?


Not really in the know, but I think they wanted the 400 Reno property(north side) that the City bought earlier from Fred Jones Co. considered as a price comparison.
Anyway I'm the sure the City will have to throw a bone in.

The powerful people involved with this project want that site. I don't think there is another one that is even close to satisfying them. So, with REHCO now willing to negotiate, I think they'll find a way.

I think you are right. Rumor has it REHCO is not asking for any reparations for the legal fees (substantial) for defense on the E. domain issue.
I hope they can come to a reasonable agreement, monies, trade or other.

I'd have to look, but I'm not sure you can get attorney fees for defending an eminent domain issue. My guess would be that you can't.

Yeah, maybe you are right.
I better not say anymore.

I learned from a very good source that the re-nogiated deal for the REHCO / Bob Howard site is not going well; that the sides are still pretty far apart.

I believe the City has proposed trading out the Cox Site for the REHCO land; may be offering some cash as well but not completely sure of the details.

I was told "this is not a good deal for the City" and while the deal isn't dead, it seems insiders are now somewhat pessimistic.


Also was told that the powers that be would only really consider two other sites: Cox Center and the East Core to Shore site, and that they would almost certainly just bite the bullet on the Cox site with the 2 to 3 years of lost business because they don't want to go south of the boulevard.

Interesting. They think the Boulevard is a great idea, yet won't make an investment south of it other than the Park.

I wonder if they must think it is a "barrier".

^

Just too far from all the hotels and everything else.

Well, using the Cox site would be a dream come true. Get rid of that awful building, hopwfully restore the grid and have a site about as close to everything as you could hope.

Well, using the Cox site would be a dream come true. Get rid of that awful building, hopwfully restore the grid and have a site about as close to everything as you could hope.

Agreed. It will just mean a short-term economic hit to downtown. Question is, how big of a hit will it be? Long-term, the Cox site it is the best possible site.

While I agree the cox site is as close to as good of a site as possible for it to exceed but I will always think what that block could have been in terms of new mid-high rises and bridging the CBD to bricktown.

It's the best possible site for the convention center but IMO not at all the best decision for OKC.

It cuts off the much-needed expansion of the CBD and the Cox site was going to be redeveloped anyway right after the CC was finished.

Would much rather see this very valuable and important property developed by private developers instead of yet another publicly owned super block.

Does the Cox site allow for future expansion? One thing I have noticed about convention centers, they are always needing to add more space. If Cox is chosen, will OKC be looking for another site in say, 20years?

After thinking a minute, I suppose they could move the arena and then use the arena site for future expansion needs.

Would much rather see this very valuable and important property developed by private developers instead of yet another publicly owned super block.
Agree. Really wish the swap for the Cox site would work. Cox is the most prime spot in all of downtown for a private mixed-use development.

And remember, the City just paid consultants a bunch of money and they were explicit that the Cox site should be high-rise office and some mixed use, with the grid restored. Talked a lot about the need for expansion of the CBD.

Of course, that won't matter at all when a few powerful people exert their will. If need be, they'll just commission the same group to provide the answer they want.

Also, keep in mind the Cox Center is the largest public garage in the City.

Imagine taking those spaces completely away for at least two years. It would be crippling to several businesses.

They would have to do some sort of temporary parking farther away and then probably run shuttle buses.

Not to mention the elimination of a major tax driver in the city could actually cause MAPS3 to be short in its collections, in addition to wreaking havoc on the city budget.

Unless there was some way to continue conventions at the COX even under a limited basis while construction was going on, I'd be against this.

If the people who want this are so hellbent on getting it at the REHCO site, I'd rather them just put the money where their mouth is and push for a MAPS3 extension to fund the difference.

I'm not sure why it's not mentioned here at all (or else I'm completely oblivious to it), but there's something like the Midtown PR firm that calls themselves the WestPark District OKC and they're pushing for the convention center to be over south of ... what? the new OG&E HQ? just east of the 21c Hotel? Here's their FB page: https://www.facebook.com/WestparkOKC. IT doesn't seem to be anything other than a half-hearted attempt, but it's interesting. It's clearly not one of the half-a-dozen under consideration, but maybe it should be.

Different name but I believe that is the Bluementhal site which they have really been pressing to be considered.

^

Just too far from all the hotels and everything else.

Huh, and here I thought the CC was going to be this enormous economic engine that brought billions into the local economy - and they don't expect support businesses to build up around it?

I'm not sure why it's not mentioned here at all (or else I'm completely oblivious to it), but there's something like the Midtown PR firm that calls themselves the WestPark District OKC and they're pushing for the convention center to be over south of ... what? the new OG&E HQ? just east of the 21c Hotel? Here's their FB page: https://www.facebook.com/WestparkOKC. IT doesn't seem to be anything other than a half-hearted attempt, but it's interesting. It's clearly not one of the half-a-dozen under consideration, but maybe it should be.

Yes, that is the Blumenthal site:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10345556_1594961887427710_8693156572244793558_n.jp g?oh=a1804ef0a31d073db93de88c80ad1043&oe=55998333&__gda__=1440069209_ea305adcab9ac229bd56a453bb52603 a

Use the Cox site; you don't have to have a totally new convention center. Just gut the arena, then the convention center along with the conference hotel could be built in phases.


Different name but I believe that is the Bluementhal site which they have really been pressing to be considered.

Good alternative would be the Bluementhal site if you want a totally new cc built from the ground up.

City should tell REHCO to take their land and stick it where the sun doesn't shine & the moss doesn't grow...

Pete can you remind me what the planned development on that map just west of the city park is? Its the blue box just north of the maintenance facility.

Huh, and here I thought the CC was going to be this enormous economic engine that brought billions into the local economy - and they don't expect support businesses to build up around it?

http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/Dead_Horse.gif
Let go JTF...

Use the Cox site; you don't have to have a totally new convention center. Just gut the arena, then the convention center along with the conference hotel could be built in phases.


This sounds great in theory but from what I understand, the arena structurally supports the rest of the Cox Center, making it impossible to retrofit.

Pete can you remind me what the planned development on that map just west of the city park is? Its the blue box just north of the maintenance facility.

There is nothing specific planned there.

Investors have been buying up property in that area (about 3 or 4 of them) and the City also owns some as well.

That's what I thought, it just seemed interesting the labeled it like that like there was something specifically in action that they know of but i'm sure its more just the potential and likelihood of something as soon as the park is in place.

I say bite the bullet and buy the Co-Op site for the convention center and sell 1/2 the site for private development. It would be prime location, plus the Bricktown towers would be a reality bringing in more revenue, and the U-Haul building would likely be restored. The canal could be linked to the river and the overall site become a master urban development. It is really a cornerstone to the whole of downtown and NO smell!

This sounds great in theory but from what I understand, the arena structurally supports the rest of the Cox Center, making it impossible to retrofit.

There was talk (post Chesapeake Arena) to downsize the Myriad arena--make the top or bottom portion 7,000 seats and add exhibition space above or below that structure.

I say bite the bullet and buy the Co-Op site for the convention center and sell 1/2 the site for private development. It would be prime location, plus the Bricktown towers would be a reality bringing in more revenue, and the U-Haul building would likely be restored. The canal could be linked to the river and the overall site become a master urban development. It is really a cornerstone to the whole of downtown and NO smell!

This would be a dream come true. It would resolve so many issues with downtown OKC all in one swoop. Unfortunately such a solution is likely too good to be possible.

I know, but I like to dream. Would be willing to name it after a billionaire benefactor, instead of the Oklahoma Convention Center.

I know, but I like to dream. Would be willing to name it after a billionaire benefactor, instead of the Oklahoma Convention Center.

Naming rights?

Right on! How about the Boone Pickens, Donald W. Reynolds, Carl Icahn or the George Kaiser Convention Center?.

If we have to whore out all our public buildings with advertising, I'd vote for the Producers Cooperative Oil Mill Convention Center in perpetuity for a discount on their property as the location.

Better a benefactor or corporate sponsor than a politician. The Super-Sonic Convention Center and Drive-thru.

I say bite the bullet and buy the Co-Op site for the convention center and sell 1/2 the site for private development. It would be prime location, plus the Bricktown towers would be a reality bringing in more revenue, and the U-Haul building would likely be restored. The canal could be linked to the river and the overall site become a master urban development. It is really a cornerstone to the whole of downtown and NO smell!

I really like this idea. Get the city to pony up for the whole site and then parcel it out to recoup costs.

You all do realize the Cox Businesses Services Convention Center is named that because the city sold the naming rights?

So there is precedence. I tend to still think of it as the Myriad, the incomparable Myriad, as they used to say. Naming rights wouldn't bring enough money. I still think a benefactor that wants a prominent legacy would be the only way to bring significant cash. Isn't the new Tulsa "core to shore" park funded by a benefactor?

Hopefully they can come up with something more creative than "Oklahoma Convention Center." If they don't want to sell naming rights for it, at least something akin to "the Myriad" would be better than having yet another downtown focal point named "Oklahoma" or "Oklahoma City" this or that.

Maybe the City will put 10 million down and give REHCO the Cox Center.
As far as the Myriad be add on, forget it. The original plans called for extra piers, and were paid btw, but seemed to come up missing when they looked at it a couple years ago. STRANGE
must of been a good ole boy deal back then.

Honestly, if REHCO is not taking the Cox site (assuming it's the full 4 blocks) + cash, they're being foolish: It's more land than they currently have, and with no headache of trying to close down streets. Obviously demolition is a big question/headache for the Cox site, whether it is sold or whether it is kept by the city…I'm not sure how much it will cost, but it can't be cheap (I'm guessing north of $25M?). Not sure if the underground parking could be salvaged after demolition, but that would be an added bonus if so.

Really really really hoping cooler heads prevail in this deal and that we choose anything but the Cox site. I'd absolutely, unequivocally support scrapping the project altogether before you could ever convince me putting a paltry $300M investment on the most important real estate in the state of Oklahoma is anything other than the most absurd and irresponsible use of our cities resources in the history of OKC. Anything less than $1,500,000,000 of investment on that property is, as far as I'm concerned, absolutely unacceptable.

Honestly, if REHCO is not taking the Cox site (assuming it's the full 4 blocks) + cash, they're being foolish: It's more land than they currently have, and with no headache of trying to close down streets.

To be clear, I don't know the details of the deal. But keep in mind they have a nearly identical property between two massive parks and that is already fully ready for development.

In any scenario, the Cox Center would not be ready for redevelopment for a few years and then there are a ton of variables, such as demolition, what to do about the parking, etc.

I'm sure it's all complex and you certainly can't blame anyone who had the foresight to buy valuable property -- and who have been held up for quite a while by the City -- for expecting the City to make them a good deal in exchange for the land they were in the process of developing.

Yeah - the Cox site swap makes no sense for REHCO. They couldn't use that site for another 5 to 8 years.

To be honest, I'm at least a little bit afraid that REHCO is too small of a developer for any MBG or even Transit Hub fronting property. I'd LOVE for them to be able to put out a $1B project over a 5 to 10 year period, but I feel like they're more in the ballpark of a $250M max budget for the foreseeable future, especially with what they have going on in Film Row (and I imagine are tied up in Midtown Renaissance as well, though I'm not sure how closely connected those companies are).

My opinion of the level of investment we should see on all the different blocks:

Devon: $750M
Clayco: $550M
Cox MBG: $750M
REHCO MGB: $500M

Cox SFS: $750M
REHCO Boulevard: $200M
Chesapeake Arena: $100M

That would be a total of $3.6B. With everything that borders MBG, + the main connectivity triangle between SFS, MBG, MP3P (i.e. CHK Arena, Block to it's south that fronts the Boulevard/Park, etc.), that number really needs to edge $5B.

Look, I know that is a lot of money, I understand…but this is the heart of our city. If we're balking at $5B, we will never be the city that we all want to be.

I just don't see how you get there by putting a $700M convention center (at the very best) that has no real value to the everyday citizen/tourist on the plot of land that really deserves treatment north of $1.25B and in active use every single day by tourists, residents, employees, business owners, and passersby alike.

The city needs to realize they're playing small ball now. And for me, the most frustrating part is that Larry Nichols, who spearheaded the largest project in downtown history, is not advocating for a better effort. Maybe he's doing what he thinks is right. Maybe he wants Devon to be the centerpiece of downtown. Maybe he's scared that OKC is growing too fast. Maybe he's listening to those who run in the most elite circles of OKC…In reality, we don't know, and it's probably a mix of good and bad motives (like any human being). That being said, if Nichols is going to be a city leader we remember for decades/centuries, he needs to realize putting *this* convention center at the Cox site will disqualify him. Most importantly, it is a major major disservice to OKC...but more ironically, it is a major disservice to the three-quarter-billion-dollars beautiful corporate headquarters he just finished building.

Would much rather see this very valuable and important property developed by private developers instead of yet another publicly owned super block.

You mean something like this...?

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