I don't think this information is very good so I wouldn't read too much into it.

I looked at some other OKC area projects and it seems people are just posting updates they get from the newspapers. No real inside information.

425 rooms is too few for a convention hotel, tbh. The past president of the CVB once told me we need to be looking at least around 600-800 to be competitive within Tier 2 cities.

Looks like we might have an architect for the new CC very soon, I like tvsDesign, and even through Populous, Inc is the consultant, I hope they made a proposal to be the lead architect:

http://www.naisullivangroup.com/OKNews/14architecturefirmsbidforOKCconventioncenterprojec t.pdf

I wonder if the City has analyzed adding a retail component to the new CC fronting Reno Ave. They should do a mixed-use CC, hotel, office, and retail....

Here's the info.

Most interesting is listing Marcus as the hotel developer:


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/cchotel1.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/cchotel2.jpg

Pete, that site is really carrying some bad info.... the information they have was from my reporting, and garbled up at that. The Skirvin folks publicly pitched their idea for a hotel, it got shot down, and that was that. At no time since the passage of MAPS 3 has the city ever indicated they won't be building a convention center. Ugh....

That proposal was for the Skirvin addition.

I wonder if the City has analyzed adding a retail component to the new CC fronting Reno Ave. They should do a mixed-use CC, hotel, office, and retail....

This.

I recall reading somewhere early on that the C.C was gong to be mixed use with Food Court, Retail etc. Now if it was all internal or interacting with the street...

More then likely, the CC Hotel will be connected to the CC, which will provide some mixed use amenities, bar, restaurants, etc...But I was wondering if retail, and office have been discussed. It would be cool to have a CC with offices on top, and retail/restaurants interacting with the street, that is open to the public.

Nm - wrong thread.

Did you guys forget they only have $250 million and a large chunk of that is land cost?

That's why you make deals with private developers to develop with the CC. Like how the new $20M parking garage owned by the City will possibly secure a private developer to build residences on top.

I guess I didnt delete fast enough. This whole thing is going to hit a brick wall anyhow. MAPS 3 is only funding phase 1 of a 3 phase convention center complex. No word yet on where the funding for the other two phases will come from.

Sorry, but I can't fine the CC thread?

The City's share of a convention hotel is estimated at $50 million. Since construction will need to start in the next 2 or 3 years where is this money coming from? The P180 tif, maps 3 funds, downtown business fund, magical land?

MAPS3 Contingency Funds, and in the 2007 Oklahoma City Bond Issue, under Proposition 11 states funds can be used for Economic Development Incentive Program. So don't be surprised if they pull funds from both of these programs for the $50 million needed for the CC hotel...

The City's share of a convention hotel is estimated at $50 million. Since construction will need to start in the next 2 or 3 years where is this money coming from? The P180 tif, maps 3 funds, downtown business fund, magical land?

Maybe someone will create a new CC-HOTEL-TIF, loan the city the money, and let the city pay it back with interest? Nah.

The City's share of a convention hotel is estimated at $50 million. Since construction will need to start in the next 2 or 3 years where is this money coming from? The P180 tif, maps 3 funds, downtown business fund, magical land?

general funds ... to be paid back .. by hotel revenue

Before I say anything else negative about the convention center project, it is worth noting (as a basis in fact) that most all cities get paid back over time the incentives they give to a CC hotel, so it's only a slightly bad deal. Worth it to get the thing built, I'd say.

That said, I will go berserk if I see a "food court" in this convention center. Grrrr...see how many more suburban-styled amenities we can roll into this self-contained convention palace built by taxpayers.

I agree, Spartan. A catering kitchen, yes, but a food court, no. We should be encouraging the convention visitors to sample other local places for meals. They won't have to go that far.

We're locating this thing at Bricktown's beck and call.

It would surprise me if the cc was designed to send folk out the doors for their food. A food court or some other form of multiple choice grub access just seems more likely.

It would surprise me if the cc was designed to send folk out the doors for their food. A food court or some other form of multiple choice grub access just seems more likely.

Well, a food court would finalize the trinity of terribleness for this project: terrible location, terrible amenities, and terribly funded. A food court would waste some of the most valuable land in the state of Oklahoma by deterring, maybe even discouraging, any private development.

Well, a food court would finalize the trinity of terribleness for this project: terrible location, terrible amenities, and terribly funded. A food court would waste some of the most valuable land in the state of Oklahoma by deterring, maybe even discouragin, any private development.

Sounds about right.


It would surprise me if the cc was designed to send folk out the doors for their food. A food court or some other form of multiple choice grub access just seems more likely.

Now if we could only get the cc elevated, people would never walk out the door.

They had talked about it being completely self contained early on so folks wouldn't have to leave if they didn't want to, but certainly could go to Bricktown or where ever they chose. What I was talking about earlier wasn't the C.C. folks having to exit to get to the retail etc if it interacted with the street, but that access to food/retail would be from both sides so folks on the street wouldn't have to go into the C.C. either.

I was thinking the Thunder shop is set up this way??? Can folks go in there without having to enter the Arena first (and be a ticket holder for an event). Or some of the hotels that have access to a restaurant for their guests from within the hotel, but folks on the street can get in too, without having to go into the hotel lobby???

Yes, there is a ThunderShop entrance on the west side of the building, but I don't think it is accessible from the outside on game days.

Well, a food court would finalize the trinity of terribleness for this project: terrible location, terrible amenities, and terribly funded. A food court would waste some of the most valuable land in the state of Oklahoma by deterring, maybe even discouraging, any private development.

Virtually every convention center I have ever been to has a food court or a variation of that. Attendees rarely take the time to have full sit down, served lunches, and don't stay over to go to dinner at the convention center. Then the cc would be in direct competition with all the restaurants in the area, also. The full service restaurants are usually at the convention center hotels or close by in the commercial areas. I may be wrong, but I don't know of a true "mixed use" convention center anywhere. Seems like maybe Calgary is the closest to that description as it is right downtown. Spartan, you spent time in Calgary....is the convention center mixed use or just located amidst mixed use properties downtown?

Well, a food court would finalize the trinity of terribleness for this project: terrible location, terrible amenities, and terribly funded. A food court would waste some of the most valuable land in the state of Oklahoma by deterring, maybe even discouraging, any private development.

I'm pretty convinced that's actually the goal with this convention center.

Virtually every convention center I have ever been to has a food court or a variation of that. Attendees rarely take the time to have full sit down, served lunches, and don't stay over to go to dinner at the convention center. Then the cc would be in direct competition with all the restaurants in the area, also. The full service restaurants are usually at the convention center hotels or close by in the commercial areas. I may be wrong, but I don't know of a true "mixed use" convention center anywhere. Seems like maybe Calgary is the closest to that description as it is right downtown. Spartan, you spent time in Calgary....is the convention center mixed use or just located amidst mixed use properties downtown?

The last convention center I was in is in Fort Lauderdale. It has a small "cyber cafe" and a couple of outlets for coffee and snacks but no food court.

This was 9 years ago, but when I was in Houston (back before AstroWorld died), I was here:

http://www.reliantpark.com/reliant-park-facilities

I was thinking the Thunder shop is set up this way??? Can folks go in there without having to enter the Arena first (and be a ticket holder for an event). Or some of the hotels that have access to a restaurant for their guests from within the hotel, but folks on the street can get in too, without having to go into the hotel lobby???

Yes, you can access the Thunder shop from the west side of the arena, and it is open daily M-F (and maybe Saturday) from about 10 to 5 p.m.

Perhaps the CC and hotel will NOT be built at the boulevard?

If Hilton is involved and the bid brings up Skirvin, then perhaps that location is in play (which may explain the city's reluctance to implement the quiet zone)? Or, would there now be more serious incling of the city to use the original proposed location (side of the park)?

Personally, I like side of the park and Skirvin as #1 and #2 options; maybe the city is seeing the light given the boulevard and its impact/role.

All I know is 425 rooms is ridiculous, we need to shoot big here:600-1000 please. Also, Convention Center hotels aren't typically upscale are they? I have never heard of a 5-star Convention Center hotel or any luxury name tied to a convention hotel. ....

All I know is 425 rooms is ridiculous, we need to shoot big here:600-1000 please. Also, Convention Center hotels aren't typically upscale are they? I have never heard of a 5-star Convention Center hotel or any luxury name tied to a convention hotel. ....

Most convention center hotels are 4 star.

Some hotels attached to convention centers:
-San Diego Marriott Marquis
-Omni Dallas Hotel
-Chicago Hyatt Regency McCormick Place
-Omni Georgia World Congress Center
-Hilton Americas Houston
-The Westin Convention Center Pittsburgh
-The Westin Boston Convention Center

Most convention center hotels are 4 star.

Some hotels attached to convention centers:
-San Diego Marriott Marquis
-Omni Dallas Hotel
-Chicago Hyatt Regency McCormick Place
-Omni Georgia World Congress Center
-Hilton Americas Houston
-The Westin Convention Center Pittsburgh
-The Westin Boston Convention Center

That's exactly correct. A convention center hotel caters to the masses, not just high level executives who require luxury accommodations and facilities.

that was my point, thanks guys

Perhaps the CC and hotel will NOT be built at the boulevard?

...

I agree the cc hotel ought not be a smallish offering. As to any notion the powers what be might change their mind about plopping the cc between MBG and the new park .... I'd put that in the snowball survives hell percentile range.

Would the Hilton want to open another hotel downtown which directly competed with their already existing Skirvin-Hilton? I'd really hate to see that as I'm afraid they'd make the Skirvin less of a priority.

ETA: should have looked at current page before replying.

Would the Hilton want to open another hotel downtown which directly competed with their already existing Skirvin-Hilton? I'd really hate to see that as I'm afraid they'd make the Skirvin less of a priority.

ETA: should have looked at current page before replying.

hilton doesn't own the skirvin marcus hotels does

Right, it is just Hilton branded. Hilton brands include: Luxury (Waldorf-Astoria & Conrad); Full Service (Hilton, DoubleTree, Embassy Suites); Focused Service (Hilton Garden Inn, Hampton, Homewood Suites, Home2)
http://hiltonworldwide.com/portfolio/

Not sure what Hilton's philosophy on it is but the Marriott brand has many many many branded hotels in the metro area

Right, it is just Hilton branded. Hilton brands include: Luxury (Waldorf-Astoria & Conrad); Full Service (Hilton, DoubleTree, Embassy Suites); Focused Service (Hilton Garden Inn, Hampton, Homewood Suites, Home2)
http://hiltonworldwide.com/portfolio/

Not sure what Hilton's philosophy on it is but the Marriott brand has many many many branded hotels in the metro area

Hilton also has many many branded hotels in the metro area. (There are 18 Hilton branded hotels, including 2 downtown; 21 Marriott branded hotels, including 3 downtown.)

But that tells us nothing about whether either of them would be okay with having two of their flagship flag properties in downtown OKC. Perhaps just as important, it tells us nothing about the rights of the Skirvin. They may very well have an exclusive on the Hilton flag for downtown OKC.

At the end of the day, so long as the Skirvin is flagged as a Hilton Hotel, it is unlikely that the convention center hotel will be a Hilton Hotel. It could possibly be a Doubletree, but I don't think they are generally in the business of convention center hotels, per se.

I would like to see a new brand enter the OKC market via the CC Hotel. Like a Omni, W, Ritz-Carlton, or JW Marriot. But I think our best hope would be an Omni.

What if you had two brands (serving two different price-points) in the same facility? Kind of like the Bricktown hotel going up right now... except instead of joined next door, stack the lower-end hotel on top of the higher-end hotel. That way you can get a range of price-points and also get to the sheer volume of hotel rooms needed to book the CC solid with major conventions, and you also make a legitimate skyscraper economically feasible.

Like say, W for the first 20 floors, then Aloft or some other Starwood for another 15-20 floors..

What if you had two brands (serving two different price-points) in the same facility? Kind of like the Bricktown hotel going up right now... except instead of joined next door, stack the lower-end hotel on top of the higher-end hotel. That way you can get a range of price-points and also get to the sheer volume of hotel rooms needed to book the CC solid with major conventions, and you also make a legitimate skyscraper economically feasible.

Like say, W for the first 20 floors, then Aloft or some other Starwood for another 15-20 floors..
Um W is way nicer and pricier than Aloft, why would you give Aloft the premium space? Neither are convention brands either, as much as I'd love a W here.

I think Omni would be a good fit if a "new" brand is going to be on the CC Hotel. I mention the Ft Worth Omni as a good example of a combination hotel and residential building. It is across the street from the FTWCC and is a very nice facility. Omni seems to be near or attached to a fairly high number of convention centers and is a high level of service.

I think Omni would be a good fit if a "new" brand is going to be on the CC Hotel. I mention the Ft Worth Omni as a good example of a combination hotel and residential building. It is across the street from the FTWCC and is a very nice facility. Omni seems to be near or attached to a fairly high number of convention centers and is a high level of service.

I mentioned that earlier in this thread, so I'm right there with you ;-)

I think Omni would be a good fit if a "new" brand is going to be on the CC Hotel. I mention the Ft Worth Omni as a good example of a combination hotel and residential building. It is across the street from the FTWCC and is a very nice facility. Omni seems to be near or attached to a fairly high number of convention centers and is a high level of service.I agree, I think Omni is the way to go, this sort of thing is their niche.

What if you had two brands (serving two different price-points) in the same facility? Kind of like the Bricktown hotel going up right now... except instead of joined next door, stack the lower-end hotel on top of the higher-end hotel. That way you can get a range of price-points and also get to the sheer volume of hotel rooms needed to book the CC solid with major conventions, and you also make a legitimate skyscraper economically feasible.

Like say, W for the first 20 floors, then Aloft or some other Starwood for another 15-20 floors..

Just 2?? How about 5 like in Indianapolis. JW Marriott, Marriott, Courtyard, Fairfield, and Springhill all connected to their convention center.

http://www.jwindy.com/marriottplace

Wishful thinking on my part, I suppose.

What if you had two brands (serving two different price-points) in the same facility? Kind of like the Bricktown hotel going up right now... except instead of joined next door, stack the lower-end hotel on top of the higher-end hotel. That way you can get a range of price-points and also get to the sheer volume of hotel rooms needed to book the CC solid with major conventions, and you also make a legitimate skyscraper economically feasible.

Like say, W for the first 20 floors, then Aloft or some other Starwood for another 15-20 floors..

This is done in residential high rises where the "for rent" floors are the lower floors and the condos are upper. They have separate elevators and may have separate entrances/lobbies. It works with hotels, but the better brand/service would be upper, not lower. I don't know of any examples in the hundreds of hotels I worked on, but it sure could work fine with one developer and two operators/franchises. It is done with combination of condos and hotels...usually premium brands.

http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2011/01/04/twoinone_hotel_tower_to_rise_67_stories_on_broadwa y.php


Down low along Broadway, just north of where David Letterman does his shtick and backing up to the stalled site at 250 West 55th Street, the Frankentower will present a six-story block in glass with retail, restaurants and hotel lobby. The Buildings Department has approved the plan and the Schedule A lays out the room scheme. Rising above the base will be a Courtyard Inn, covering floors 7-31, with 14 rooms per floor. On top of that will be a 30-story Residence Inn with 9 rooms per floor. The two-in-one combo will offer visitors the option of long term stays, a profitable package popular with both hoteliers and guests, especially in these budget conscious times.

The meeting rooms, etc. can be operated separately from each hotel. Catering serving all three.

This is done in residential high rises where the "for rent" floors are the lower floors and the condos are upper. They have separate elevators and may have separate entrances/lobbies. It works with hotels, but the better brand/service would be upper, not lower. I don't know of any examples in the hundreds of hotels I worked on, but it sure could work fine with one developer and two operators/franchises. It is done with combination of condos and hotels...usually premium brands.

Sure, for some reason I was thinking proximity to street amenities could be the prime space, but obviously the higher you go, the more upscale it should be..is the rule of thumb. My point wasn't to specifically illustrate where a W could go in relation to the Aloft, but rather just to point out that all of these chains operate a number of hotel brands - going with a family hotels may be a better way to achieve what we're looking for with the convention hotel project, particularly if the city is fronting any of the bill for it.

This is done in residential high rises where the "for rent" floors are the lower floors and the condos are upper. They have separate elevators and may have separate entrances/lobbies. It works with hotels, but the better brand/service would be upper, not lower. I don't know of any examples in the hundreds of hotels I worked on, but it sure could work fine with one developer and two operators/franchises. It is done with combination of condos and hotels...usually premium brands.

A perfect example of the dual hotel concept is the Mandalay Bay Hotel in Vegas which has a Four Seasons Hotel on the upper floors.

A perfect example of the dual hotel concept is the Mandalay Bay Hotel in Vegas which has a Four Seasons Hotel on the upper floors.

Yes...I forgot about Mandalay Bay. Good example. On a smaller scale, perfect for OKC.

A perfect example of the dual hotel concept is the Mandalay Bay Hotel in Vegas which has a Four Seasons Hotel on the upper floors.

Yep, have stayed at that Four Seasons.

Congrats.

Sorry if this has been posted else where.

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-nearly-leads-nation-in-hotel-occupancy-growth-according-to-report/article/3701500

It looks like the article and report supports what some of us keep saying...it is time to quit being satisfied with cheap hotel room development and do some big boy development with quality full service hotels.

Yep, have stayed at that Four Seasons.

Have you ever stayed at a Holiday Inn Express?

City names convention center short list


Four teams of architectural firms were notified Aug. 8 that they will be presenting MAPS 3 convention center concepts on Sept. 21 before the Consultant Review Committee.
Those teams on the short list, which includes Oklahoma City-based and out-of-state firms, include: Denver-based Fentress Architects and TAParchitecture; Frankfurt Short Bruza and Atlanta-based tvsdesign; Kansas City, Mo.-based HNTB Architecture and Rees; and Kansas City, Mo.-based Populous and GSB Inc.

Fourteen proposals were under consideration.

The selection was just one piece of the ongoing process to construct a convention center downtown. Oklahoma City voters passed MAPS 3 in 2009. It included $280 million for the convention center to replace the aging Cox Convention Center.

Modifications to that amount were made when it was determined that $30 million of that total was intended to pay for moving an OG&E substation on the proposed sight just south of the central business district. The convention center subcommittee ultimately decided the convention center would not be on that sight, and instead would be just west of Chesapeake Energy Arena. At that point, the budget was shaved to just more than $252 million, with $30 million in an infrastructure contingency fund.

In August 2011, members of the Oklahoma City Council approved that option in a 5-4 vote. Ward 4 Councilman Pete White added the amendment that the $30 million be placed in the contingency and earmarked for infrastructure at the convention center.

The city’s MAPS 3 website shows that based on the current budget, the center will have about 470,000 square feet, with 235,000 square feet as sellable space for events. The goal is to get Oklahoma City from a Tier 3 city to a Tier 2 city in terms of convention center space.

http://www.fentressarchitects.com/portfolio/convention-centers/
http://www.taparchitecture.com/
http://www.fsb-ae.com
http://www.tvsa.com/markets/convention.aspx
http://www.hntb.com/
http://www.gsb-inc.com/
http://populous.com/

Populous, please.