Why does it sound like we're hoping this will happen? I thought this was voted on and was a done deal, with ground breaking pretty soon. Am I missing something?

^ I think these folks are cheering for funding and completion of Phase II and subsidy, if necessary for a big Convention Center Hotel.

In the new Chamber magazine (page 12) there is an article about the convention center and its support of the toursim industry. Here are a few snippets:

"Tourism in the 3rd largest industry in OKC generating $2.9 billion in domestic travel expenitures within the OKC Metro area."

"The OKC tourism industry experienced even stronger growth during the same time period (December 2007 to December 2013). OKC's hotel inventory increased from 13,500 rooms and 132 hotels in December 2007 to 15,468 rooms and 150 properties in December 2013. Even with 2,000 additional hotel rooms, the OKC occupancy percentage improved from 64.9% in 2007 to 66.4% in 2013. OKC's hotel tax receipts increased by 38.6% from $9.5 million in the 07-08 fiscal year to $13.15 million in the 12-13 fiscal year.

"The OKC CVB works with meeting and convention planners to schedule events in OKC. According to their records, OKC lost 96 events in the past seven years due to the convention center capacity and availability. These events were estimated to generate almost $167 million in direct spending and 7,436 booked room nights per event."

"The new convention center will have an estimated $78 million annual impact, nearly tripling the current annual economic impact of the CCC."

May Point! (http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/3edbb2e8#/3edbb2e8/11)

Condemnation proceedings are beginning.

http://www.oklahoman.com/article/4927197?embargo=1


The Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority is moving forward with condemnation of the former Fred Jones Ford dealership property and Ira’s Tire Shop as it seeks to acquire property for a new $250 million convention center.

^

The City couldn't be happy that the Paramount property on Film Row sold recently at such a high price.

It will no doubt skew up the sales comparables and perhaps the total price determined through this legal action.

^ I think these folks are cheering for funding and completion of Phase II and subsidy, if necessary for a big Convention Center Hotel.

Thank you Paseofreak!

We need to invest in an anchor hotel; one that exceeds the current 700-plus room study. Should this involve a financial incentive to attract a reputable chain? You have to invest to get results. OKC's central location is a plus. Invest in venues that make OKC attractive for conventions. The right conventions bring new money from out-of-state; this will grow OKC's economy.

Study suggests Oklahoma City can support $200 million, 735-room conference hotel | News OK (http://newsok.com/study-suggests-oklahoma-city-can-support-200-million-735-room-conference-hotel/article/3914440)

Plan for the future, support a chain that will build 1,000 rooms to complement the new convention center. Large conventions want a city with a venue capacity to house all of its attendees.


http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

^

The City couldn't be happy that the Paramount property on Film Row sold recently at such a high price.

It will no doubt skew up the sales comparables and perhaps the total price determined through this legal action.

Do we have any idea of how much is too much for this property?

Do we have any idea of how much is too much for this property?

The city proposed a total budget of $252 million, $17,861,000 of that being used for land acquisition and site prep. The only site prep I could see happening is the closing of SW 2nd and Harvey and the tearing down of the building on the south side of SW 2nd. Not sure what the cost of that would run. Here is a link to the site if you are curious.

City of Oklahoma City | Public Information & Marketing (http://www.okc.gov/maps3/projects/conventioncenter.html)

I would think it that number went up, they would have to dive into that $30 million that Cornett seems so adamant about using to relocate the substation.

It is always curious to me that people throw such a fit at the idea of the city giving financial incentive to attract a big name for the Convention center Hotel.. but throwing money at Cabelas and Bass pro is perfectly acceptable.. SMH

Nobody threw a fit about Cabelas and Bass Pro? I distinctly remember plenty of fits being thrown.

^

The City couldn't be happy that the Paramount property on Film Row sold recently at such a high price.

It will no doubt skew up the sales comparables and perhaps the total price determined through this legal action.

If the price was so high how did the owner's secure financing? Surely any bank would have gone through the price comps process as well. Unless Garneau is independently wealthy (which I'm pretty sure she is not) she would have to have had financing, right?

I can get behind the hotel initiative if it is a quality brand. An Omni or a W. Otherwise, quite frankly, let the free market handle it. As someone who has attended many conventions, had to help coordinate political events, and been a vendor at some, I remain deeply unimpressed with Convention Center Hotels and their often poor management (especially municipally operated partnership hotels).

Plus, Cablelas and Bass Pro is a completely different situation. You are competing for the location for sales tax revenue versus losing it to the suburbs. The convention center hotel is a decision to directly locate and subsidize direct competition with local hoteliers in a specific area and create a project prospectus that does not already exist.

My limited conservatism kicks in. On principal, it is just simply wrong.

So if OKC is going to do this and say screw free market principles, don't half a** it. Bring in something that we can at least be proud we subsidized and is run properly because the partners want to retain their brand standards and brand equity.

If the price was so high how did the owner's secure financing? Surely any bank would have gone through the price comps process as well. Unless Garneau is independently wealthy (which I'm pretty sure she is not) she would have to have had financing, right?

I'm almost certain the previous owner is carrying the note on the Paramount properties.

The city proposed a total budget of $252 million, $17,861,000 of that being used for land acquisition and site prep. The only site prep I could see happening is the closing of SW 2nd and Harvey and the tearing down of the building on the south side of SW 2nd. Not sure what the cost of that would run. Here is a link to the site if you are curious.

City of Oklahoma City | Public Information & Marketing (http://www.okc.gov/maps3/projects/conventioncenter.html)

I would think it that number went up, they would have to dive into that $30 million that Cornett seems so adamant about using to relocate the substation.

Site prep: Does that include moving of utilities and things?

Heywood Sanders' book is out.

"In Convention Center Follies, Heywood Sanders deflates overblown claims that convention centers will contribute to urban economic development and explains why city leaders so easily succumb to these claims. This carefully researched and clearly argued book is an exceptionally important contribution to the study of urban redevelopment and the politics of policy making."—Susan S. Fainstein, author of Policy, Planning, and People: Promoting Justice in Urban Development

"Heywood Sanders describes in rich detail how, beginning in the 1950s and continuing into the twenty-first century, American metropolises have made convention centers key elements in their efforts to revitalize ailing central business districts—and why the billions of dollars spent on the enterprise have yielded such meager results. An eye-opening study written clearly and forcefully, Convention Center Follies is essential reading for anyone interested in understanding the factors that have shaped modern U.S. cities."—Roger Biles, Illinois State University

"Convention Center Follies is political history at its best. Sanders convincingly generalizes across extensive cases and national data to offer a cautionary tale about motives, incentives, and local economic development."—Edward W. Hill, Cleveland State University

Convention Center Follies | Heywood T. Sanders (http://www.upenn.edu/pennpress/book/15221.html)

It is always curious to me that people throw such a fit at the idea of the city giving financial incentive to attract a big name for the Convention center Hotel.. but throwing money at Cabelas and Bass pro is perfectly acceptable.. SMH

That's okay bc they're cool, they sell guns and fur hats. This is downtown development with complicated economic factors at play.

It is always curious to me that people throw such a fit at the idea of the city giving financial incentive to attract a big name for the Convention center Hotel.. but throwing money at Cabelas and Bass pro is perfectly acceptable.. SMH

Here is the difference as I can see it. The City wants a convention hotel and has opened it up to any hotel chain/developer that wants to submit a proposal. Cabelas, from as near as I can tell, whas locating in OKC all on their own and the City never put out a request to all sporting goods retailers to submit their best proposals.

I was an early and vocal supporter of the Bass Pro deal, but I was mistaken. Bass Pro never attracted any related retail development - although I blame a lot of that on poor site development by Randy Hogan (for all of lower Bricktown) and the City by putting a giant parking lot between the building and any adjacent usable areas.

In the new Chamber magazine (page 12) there is an article about the convention center and its support of the toursim industry. Here are a few snippets:

..."The new convention center will have an estimated $78 million annual impact, nearly tripling the current annual economic impact of the CCC."

May Point! (http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/3edbb2e8#/3edbb2e8/11)

See they are still sticking with the 3 times ... problem is, the math doesn't hold up...the Chamber admitted that 2/3rds of our CC business is LOCAL so to get the 3 times amount (300%), the NEW out of area conventions will have to increase 9 times (900%)! Does anyone honestly think that can happen? Even if it did, are the new facilities even designed for that type of increase? The goal wasn't to become another Vegas or Orlando, but just get up to Tier II???

Heywood Sanders' book is out.

"In Convention Center Follies, Heywood Sanders deflates overblown claims that convention centers will contribute to urban economic development and explains why city leaders so easily succumb to these claims. This carefully researched and clearly argued book is an exceptionally important contribution to the study of urban redevelopment and the politics of policy making."—Susan S. Fainstein, author of Policy, Planning, and People: Promoting Justice in Urban Development

"Heywood Sanders describes in rich detail how, beginning in the 1950s and continuing into the twenty-first century, American metropolises have made convention centers key elements in their efforts to revitalize ailing central business districts—and why the billions of dollars spent on the enterprise have yielded such meager results. An eye-opening study written clearly and forcefully, Convention Center Follies is essential reading for anyone interested in understanding the factors that have shaped modern U.S. cities."—Roger Biles, Illinois State University

"Convention Center Follies is political history at its best. Sanders convincingly generalizes across extensive cases and national data to offer a cautionary tale about motives, incentives, and local economic development."—Edward W. Hill, Cleveland State University

Convention Center Follies | Heywood T. Sanders (http://www.upenn.edu/pennpress/book/15221.html)

I will read it but the data had better be better than his "academic" papers.

See they are still sticking with the 3 times ... problem is, the math doesn't hold up...the Chamber admitted that 2/3rds of our CC business is LOCAL so to get the 3 times amount (300%), the NEW out of area conventions will have to increase 9 times (900%)! Does anyone honestly think that can happen? Even if it did, are the new facilities even designed for that type of increase? The goal wasn't to become another Vegas or Orlando, but just get up to Tier II???

One of the things you need to take into consideration is how much space the CCC currently takes up. The largest exhibit halls take up a total of 100,000 square feet, 80,000 of which is column free. I would estimate the arena itself is bigger than that and it is right in the middle. My understanding is that there were so many conventions that we were missing out on due to our lack of contiguous space and the new convention center will have at least double that in contiguous space. So, in theory, we could host twice the amount of conventions we already hosting since the space would be doubled (again, in theory.) There was an article with a quote by the person that does the bookings for the CCC and took note every time someone called to ask about space that we didn't have due to our lack of size. Now, obviously we probably wouldn't have gotten all of those that called, but the lack of space drove a lot of business away.

One of the things you need to take into consideration is how much space the CCC currently takes up. The largest exhibit halls take up a total of 100,000 square feet, 80,000 of which is column free. I would estimate the arena itself is bigger than that and it is right in the middle. My understanding is that there were so many conventions that we were missing out on due to our lack of contiguous space and the new convention center will have at least double that in contiguous space. So, in theory, we could host twice the amount of conventions we already hosting since the space would be doubled (again, in theory.) There was an article with a quote by the person that does the bookings for the CCC and took note every time someone called to ask about space that we didn't have due to our lack of size. Now, obviously we probably wouldn't have gotten all of those that called, but the lack of space drove a lot of business away.

I'll say again that I know of at least one regional oil and gas convention that several business leaders here were attempting to bring here but it ended up not working out partially, from what I heard, was due to lack of contiguous convention space. This convention usually brings in between 7,000 and 10,000 people. That can't be the only case where our convention center size has killed our chances to land these things.


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It's not that the new convention center is going to be so amazing that we're suddenly competing with Las Vegas. It's that the current convention center sucks balls.

It's not that the new convention center is going to be so amazing that we're suddenly competing with Las Vegas. It's that the current convention center sucks balls.

Yes.

It's not that the new convention center is going to be so amazing that we're suddenly competing with Las Vegas. It's that the current convention center sucks balls.

This.

It's not that the new convention center is going to be so amazing that we're suddenly competing with Las Vegas. It's that the current convention center sucks balls.That.

All of that.

And then some. :)

I will read it but the data had better be better than his "academic" papers.

It won't take much to be more rigorous than the papers and data we've been given locally to go beyond the basic fact:


It's that the current convention center sucks balls.

I have a loaner copy of the book on the way to me from a liaison at UIC. Don't know how much dedication I'll have in absorbing the nearly 500 pages of it but we'll see. In any case, I'm more concerned with the rigour at home, or the lack of.

It's not that the new convention center is going to be so amazing that we're suddenly competing with Las Vegas. It's that the current convention center sucks balls.

After initially opposing the idea of a new convention center, this is why I have switched positions. $250 million is not a grandiose amount of money and we're not getting a grandiose building, but rather one that is appropriate for a city of this size. I will continue to insist that the location selected is a terrible choice, but I don't think the decision to build this is a terrible one.

If building this results in the Cox Center being torn down, the grid restored and some interesting development occurring on those lots, I will think the idea of a new convention center is even better than I do now.

It's not that the new convention center is going to be so amazing that we're suddenly competing with Las Vegas. It's that the current convention center sucks balls.

Larry is 100% correct about the Chamber still touting make believe pie in the sky plastic banana good time rock and role projections. They are insulting.

However...

Hoyasooner is also 100% correct. With the vast majority of convention center attendees being metro area residents this should have been sold as a quality of life issue from day one. It is okay for the City to have nice public buildings that the residents can be proud of. Based on my continuing education into all things urban I have even grown to like the location. Public buildings should get the prominent sites - so long as the buildings are designed to be worthy of their place of prominence. In other words - CCC, you took the prime spot - don't screw it up with some half-ass building.

I do not see the old Myriad being razed and any grid restoration taking place. I can be ok with that.
I think the current location of the former Myriad will eventually be the site for a newer, better Peake arena when it is time to countdown the last useful years of the current Peake.

Someone quotes some statistics.
Someone challenges the stats.
Others try to shut down that conversation with what we have "sucks balls" and needs to be replaced.

Rinse and repeat.

However, the initial conversation is still important to the extent it informs the planning, design, building and managing of the facility, expansion and other related issues like a subsidized hotel.

The subsidized hotel is a whole other topic. Even if we get a 900% increase in out-of-town guests that is still not enough to keep the hotel full. I would prefer the private sector do it but the reality is the private sector isn't building full service hotels in the heart of downtown. They are building limited service and boutique hotels in Midtown, Bricktown, and Deep Deuce. If OKC wants a full service convention hotel we are going to have to help pay for it. I just hope there is enough non-convention demand for just such hotel because that is going to make up 90% of the hotel's customers.

Someone quotes some statistics.
Someone challenges the stats.
Others try to shut down that conversation with what we have "sucks balls" and needs to be replaced.

Rinse and repeat.

However, the initial conversation is still important to the extent it informs the planning, design, building and managing of the facility, expansion and other related issues like a subsidized hotel.

No attempt to shut down conversation.

I am reminded of an early episode of The Simpsons. In the first 30 seconds of the episode, Bart gets hit by Mr. Burns' car when he zips out into traffic on his skateboard. He suffers a tiny bump on the head and a broken toe. The Simpsons sue. When they testify, Bart mentions being "struck down by the luxury car of death" and describes a vehicle with flames shooting out of it as a demonic-looking Burns aims for him, laughing the entire time. Mr. Burns then describes how he was driving to the orphanage to pass out toys, when Bart purposefully rides his skateboard into the front of the car despite all attempts to avoid him, prompting Burns to leap out, cradle the unconscious boy, and scream "Why God??? Take me, I'm old!!!"

I am reminded of this by both sets of "experts" in this discussion. The Chamber of Commerce clearly wants a convention center, and have been willing to put forth some unbelievably rosy projections to support that. They're almost ready to sing the "Monorail!" song. Conversely, Heywood Sanders' materials seem to say that no one anywhere should build a convention center, ever. Neither side seems to use accurate information or do any real research into the market needs or trends of the cities they prepare these reports for.

Has anyone who keeps saying the "old" Cox "sucks balls" actually been inside the Cox or had a meeting there? And I don't mean the Reno entrance where you are reminded of the old WRWA concourse. The meeting and event spaces are not bad, but I haven't used it in two years probably.

What I'm thinking is we wasted a lot of money on renovating it if it's so bad again.

I get it. No need to speculate on or seek out what might be correct stats and a logical conclusion when you reduce the conversation to ball sucking.

Has anyone who keeps saying the "old" Cox "sucks balls" actually been inside the Cox or had a meeting there? And I don't mean the Reno entrance where you are reminded of the old WRWA concourse. The meeting and event spaces are not bad, but I haven't used it in two years probably.

What I'm thinking is we wasted a lot of money on renovating it if it's so bad again.

Yes.

Apparently it was even worse before the renovation.


I get it. No need to speculate on or seek out what might be correct stats and a logical conclusion when you reduce the conversation to ball sucking.

There are no objective stats that anyone will agree upon. It would take a tremendous amount of work to determine that, and anyone who is going to spend that kind of time and money is going to have an agenda. Welcome to decision making in real life.

Yes.

Apparently it was even worse before the renovation.



There are no objective stats that anyone will agree upon. It would take a tremendous amount of work to determine that, and anyone who is going to spend that kind of time and money is going to have an agenda. Welcome to decision making in real life.

So lets don't even seek correct information, but make decisions on sophomoric hyperbole instead.

So lets don't even seek correct information, but make decisions on sophomoric hyperbole instead.

I haven't seen you post anything objective either. You only parrot what Sanders writes. This is no different than your posts previously: make a claim, someone disputes it, create a straw man and never address the issue again.

In this case, I suggested both more information is needed and some it of it may be available, or at least the tools to help illuminate the situation. The dispute seems to be, hoya seems to think we know all we need to know and all we can know. What straw man and what did I miss?

In this case, I suggested both more information is needed and some it of it may be available, or at least the tools to help illuminate the situation. The dispute seems to be, hoya seems to think we know all we need to know and all we can know. What straw man and what did I miss?

What information would you like to see?

Has anyone who keeps saying the "old" Cox "sucks balls" actually been inside the Cox or had a meeting there? And I don't mean the Reno entrance where you are reminded of the old WRWA concourse. The meeting and event spaces are not bad, but I haven't used it in two years probably.

What I'm thinking is we wasted a lot of money on renovating it if it's so bad again.

Yes, I've been there and while the ball rooms and lobby look nice (though even that is fading), they, along with the exhibit area, are way too small and lack some of the amenities that other venues in similar sized cities have.

Also, the renovation was completed over 15 years ago, id say we got some pretty good burn out of it. Back in 1993 we obviously didn't have anywhere near the convention interest that we do now and didn't need a large new building. We needed to have something though so upgrading the myriad was the best option available and the most likely to keep from derailing the MAPS ballot. There was already major objection to MAPS 1 and with the negativity the convention center received on the MAPS 3 vote and continues to receive. Can you imagine how adding a completely new convention center to a ballot that already included the canal, ballpark, ford center, and river improvements would've effected the MAPS 1 vote? It would've been much more difficult to justify it and the $230 million price tag back then.


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The renovated meeting space is on par with a mid-level hotel's conference room. It's not great, but the meeting space doesn't suck balls. It's small, dated, boring and unimpressive, but it gets the job done. The expo space, however, is very limiting.

I'm no connoisseur of convention centers, but Cox is, on the whole, rather poor compared to most of the others I've been in. I'm not sure how our proposed square footage would compare, but something like new convention center in Irving, TX would be great here.

2010 Forecast:

A new convention center in Nashville has fallen short of initial projections in hotel occupancy and economic impact, reports Nashville Business Journal. The Tennessean reported last month that critics of the convention center say proof has already surfaced that a new facility in Nashville was unwise.

“In its first year of operation, the Music City Center convention hall failed to meet projections for hotel bookings, saw its surplus revenue fund drop by nearly $8 million and had its bond rating downgraded,” reported Nate Rau for The Tennessean.

Critics of building new convention centers point to cities like Nashville and Charlotte, where convention center space has doubled while attendance has remained flat.

In Charlotte, where a new convention center was built in 1995, 19 years of data hasn’t pointed to economic success there, either.

“Since its 1995 opening, the center has fallen dramatically short of projections,” wrote Steve Harrison in The Charlotte Observer. “It was forecast to produce 528,800 hotel-room nights a year to fulfill its mission of putting ‘heads in beds’ ... In fiscal year 2011, it produced 142,000 room nights.”

However, the relatively low $250 million price tag for the city’s new center, along with the absence of a debt to pay for the project, makes Oklahoma City’s gamble a lot less risky.

Source: Oklahoma Gazette http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/article-21588-conventional-wisdom.html

There are risks that you take with any investment. Oklahoma City has continued its momentum with MAPS (projects). We're not Nashville or Charlotte; however our central location gives us a much better advantage than either of those cities.


http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

Laramie, that is interesting information, but I am curious as to what the size of their convention space was before they built the new space. The size of the building is actually going to be smaller than the CCC because there will be no arena but 200,000 sq ft of contiguous space versus 80,000 and then some meeting rooms. Also, did they have a lot of full service hotels when that was built? OKC only has three if I remember correctly (Skirvin, Renaissance and Sheraton).

The renovated meeting space is on par with a mid-level hotel's conference room. It's not great, but the meeting space doesn't suck balls. It's small, dated, boring and unimpressive, but it gets the job done. The expo space, however, is very limiting.

I'm no connoisseur of convention centers, but Cox is, on the whole, rather poor compared to most of the others I've been in. I'm not sure how our proposed square footage would compare, but something like new convention center in Irving, TX would be great here.

Never been to the Irving Convention Center, but I'm pretty sold on Fort Worth's. It looks really nice on most of the outside, is fairly large, has a nice omni hotel/condos attached, and the banquet and convention spaces are pretty nice.

Laramie, that is interesting information, but I am curious as to what the size of their convention space was before they built the new space. The size of the building is actually going to be smaller than the CCC because there will be no arena but 200,000 sq ft of contiguous space versus 80,000 and then some meeting rooms. Also, did they have a lot of full service hotels when that was built? OKC only has three if I remember correctly (Skirvin, Renaissance and Sheraton).

Not sure, but their 800-room Omni Hotel wasn't built until 2013, that could have been a major factor. Oklahoma City probably has a big advantage since we aren't borrowing money from the state and our convention center will be debt free once it opens.


http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

Oklahoma City opens 'friendly' condemnation actions to clear way for convention center | News OK (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-opens-friendly-condemnation-actions-to-clear-way-for-convention-center/article/4927197)

Is The New OKC Convention Center Worth It? - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | (http://www.news9.com/story/26075515/is-the-new-okc-convention-center-worth-it)

Beware the Facebook comments.

Did not see any FB comments. Guess that means god loves me.

Is The New OKC Convention Center Worth It? - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | (http://www.news9.com/story/26075515/is-the-new-okc-convention-center-worth-it)

Beware the Facebook comments.

The fact of the matter is the Cox center doesn't cut it for a city this size. Its so bad its almost an embarrassment. Smaller cities like Little Rock, AR for crying out loud have better convention centers. I would see the argument that OKC doesn't need this convention center if the current facility wasn't so bad. Charlotte has seen a ton of intangible benefits from its convention center. It has increased activity and vibrancy in Uptown and it has raised the city's profile.

Is The New OKC Convention Center Worth It? - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | (http://www.news9.com/story/26075515/is-the-new-okc-convention-center-worth-it)

Beware the Facebook comments.

This is exactly why the CC should been sold as a quality of life project and not a financial/economic generator. Convention attendance by non-residents should have been the icing on the cake, not the main attraction.

Bump:

Shouldn't we be seeing some updated renderings for this project by now? The architecture firms Populous/GSB were selected over a year ago...

"I mean, hitting that sweet spot is really key," McIntyre said, "and Charlotte's done that very well."

But, by all accounts, the 'sweet spot' didn't just happen -- Charlotte had to work at it.

When the convention center wasn't generating the 500,000 annual hotel room-nights (a common industry performance measure) that the city's paid consultant had projected, city leaders convinced taxpayers to put $16 million into the creation of a 700-room headquarters hotel. The Westin opened in 2003.

"After the Westin came on board," said Mike Butts, Executive Director of Visit Charlotte, "we were able to book more business."


We have $30 million in a contingency fund. That fund may have to be used for the proposed White water facility ($10 million) and to 'sweet spot' the convention hotel ($20 million). MAPS IV may be used to address the things we didn't get accomplished in MAPS III.


This is exactly why the CC should been sold as a quality of life project and not a financial/economic generator. Convention attendance by non-residents should have been the icing on the cake, not the main attraction.

Great point! We need new money from 'out-of-state' residents infused into our local economy. The project should have been sold as a 'quality of life project.' The icing on the cake would have been the financial aspects generated by the convention center complex (700-room convention center hotel, jobs, taxi service, restaurants) as was with the Charlotte case.

Oklahoma City leaders need to stress the economic aspects of building for the future.


http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

Yes, I've been there and while the ball rooms and lobby look nice (though even that is fading), they, along with the exhibit area, are way too small and lack some of the amenities that other venues in similar sized cities have.

Also, the renovation was completed over 15 years ago, id say we got some pretty good burn out of it. Back in 1993 we obviously didn't have anywhere near the convention interest that we do now and didn't need a large new building. We needed to have something though so upgrading the myriad was the best option available and the most likely to keep from derailing the MAPS ballot. There was already major objection to MAPS 1 and with the negativity the convention center received on the MAPS 3 vote and continues to receive. Can you imagine how adding a completely new convention center to a ballot that already included the canal, ballpark, ford center, and river improvements would've effected the MAPS 1 vote? It would've been much more difficult to justify it and the $230 million price tag back then.


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If the Cox's spaces are fine but not large enough, then why isn't the new $250M convention center not significantly larger?

I thought they were, but it's sans arena, meaning more of the space is event space...

If the Cox's spaces are fine but not large enough, then why isn't the new $250M convention center not significantly larger?

I would say that more than doubling the sellable convention/event space in phase one is pretty significant.


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If the Cox's spaces are fine but not large enough, then why isn't the new $250M convention center not significantly larger?

Because that would have made the M3 ask too large, especially for a package item that already wasn't immensely popular. By including a Phase I only, it's like getting a kiddo to try a single new veggie, knowing you'll be adding another one later. You don't try to shove both both the gullet at the same time.

A major problem with the current space is that it isn't clear-span. Another problem is the lack of loading docks. Both factors make the Cox Center less than competitive, regardless of space.

Also, the CC can be significantly expanded to the west and the Convention Hotel will have lots of meeting space as well.