... business as usual.

You don't say.

I will also add that there was a similar delay in information about the attempt to purchase the Santa Fe Depot. Every month in our streetcar meeting we would ask if there was any news on progress on purchasing the Depot and for months we were told they were working on it. The city rarely appears to be in a hurry about anything. So, while there may be political reasons for the delay, it's also possible it was due to city business as usual.

There was a pretty big difference in the way the City released info on these two projects.

With the station, we knew almost right away that the Brewers made a counter offer -- including the amount -- and that the two parties were very far apart. Then with the CC, there was never anything said between 10/22 when "all is on track, waiting on owners" to 3/13 "we are taking them to court".

It's not just about the delay, it's about how absolutely nothing was released about this until after the election, even though this was a key issue in that race. (BTW, if there was any other info released during this time, I hope someone with correct me).


Considering the way this project has been handled in the past and that all the key people involved were hired by someone who was appointed by the sitting mayor and the major players on the CC committee were strong supporters of Cornett, it's not a big leap to think politics may have entered in here.

The City ( The People ) need to keep their eye on the ball on this one. We voted in MAPS 3 for a convention center, and we will get one. Shadid lost a race because he could not connect w/ the majority, only the "rock throwing" group that always looks outside and complains about the process of progress. ( Water cooler Monday morning QB's. )

The convention center will be located DT and it will need land to sit on. The rest is just a formality. Of course there is politics involved, that is part of formula for making things move forward. You all need to get back to the Exciting News of a Convention Center in OKC and how we can make it the best city in the US!

MAPS success is based on the big picture and all of us seeing what we can become. Not what we used to be. It's time we all get back in the boat and row in the same direction...it works better that way for all of us. The City benefits, The State benefits, and each one of us benefit from a more diverse economy that is expanding. Let's keep THAT going.

I'm exicted about all the big projects for OKC. The Park. The Convention Center. The River. The Streetcar ( and I may never ride it, but it's kind of a cool thing for others to enjoy, so I'm for it for them. ) ...and the new Blvd. etc... Let's keep it going.

I've said this all the way along: Shadid has raised some good points about this whole process (site selection, being moved up in the timeline, the lack of fully communicating the total cost of the project that essentially requires a publicly-funded hotel, the bizarre shifting of MAPS3 funds for the possible relocation of the OG&E facility, among other things) but they got lost in all the other rhetoric.

He was actually right on many points and he may continue to be, but unfortunately he's more than exhausted all his political capital.

But that doesn't mean some dodgy things haven't happened; it just means there is one less person to call it to our attention, because no one is going to listen to him anymore.

I agree, it's too bad Shadid made a complete fool of himself during the election. It's made it very difficult to take him seriously. His scorched earth, kill maps all together stance he took for awhile didn't help either.


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There was a pretty big difference in the way the City released info on these two projects.

With the station, we knew almost right away that the Brewers made a counter offer -- including the amount -- and that the two parties were very far apart. Then with the CC, there was never anything said between 10/22 when "all is on track, waiting on owners" to 3/13 "we are taking them to court".

It's not just about the delay, it's about how absolutely nothing was released about this until after the election, even though this was a key issue in that race. (BTW, if there was any other info released during this time, I hope someone with correct me).


Considering the way this project has been handled in the past and that all the key people involved were hired by someone who was appointed by the sitting mayor and the major players on the CC committee were strong supporters of Cornett, it's not a big leap to think politics may have entered in here.

This is not accurate. The brewers didn't even respond for well over 3 months. And then it was a months longer before a counter was made. At that point the brewers decided to play it out in the press.

In the cc case. The owner decided after a while that the ed process. Was the best way to go. But not in a contentious way

IMHO that is because of the community standing of the owners. They will go with the decision. Of the panel and not appeal.

I don't watch the okc cc matters daily, or even weekly, but my memory matches up with the summary BoulderSooner has posted. It was the owners who a while back said hey city, go ahead with e-domain process. We're good with that approach to setting a sales price.

There was a pretty big difference in the way the City released info on these two projects.

With the station, we knew almost right away that the Brewers made a counter offer -- including the amount -- and that the two parties were very far apart. Then with the CC, there was never anything said between 10/22 when "all is on track, waiting on owners" to 3/13 "we are taking them to court".

It's not just about the delay, it's about how absolutely nothing was released about this until after the election, even though this was a key issue in that race. (BTW, if there was any other info released during this time, I hope someone with correct me).


Considering the way this project has been handled in the past and that all the key people involved were hired by someone who was appointed by the sitting mayor and the major players on the CC committee were strong supporters of Cornett, it's not a big leap to think politics may have entered in here.

Again, I don't doubt that politics may have played into the timing. I just don't see why the political angle has to automatically be suppression of information to help Mick's re-election chances. Shadid said far worse things about Mick regarding the Convention Center, and none of those accusations seemed to alter people's opinion, either.

I seem to recall an article several months ago, where the owners of the property said instead of having blood on the walls by fighting over a price in public, that they told the city they'd rather go through the eminent domain process. I see no foul here if that's what the city and the property owners agreed to. Who cares?

Boulder Sooner is correct, but it seemed like 6 months rather than 3 before we heard anything. Again, I think the city is never in a hurry, for reasons that are not completely clear. I can't guarantee there was no conspiracy, but the delay fits SOP around here.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&docid=eWZIxItJTu_1BM&tbnid=-8rqYf-tEYf-gM:&ved=0CAUQjBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.okc.gov%2Fmaps3%2FCNVNTN_CNTR _FINAL_lr.jpg&ei=2PVJU7fqCYir8gGtkIGgCQ&psig=AFQjCNFcKcYrli6JuBD3z9i381B4LsBGYg&ust=1397442392216996

Oklahoma City is taking her sweet time and putting feelers out there to see if a convention center hotel with or without the need of public subsidies can be achieved. Unfortunately, any major hotel chain wanting to build a 700-800 room mega hotel know that there are $30 million in a contingency fund just waiting to be tapped.

A smart-aggressive hotel chain is going to 'French kiss' Oklahoma City until a tonsillectomy is performed on that contingency fund and OKC regurgitates some dollars.

They (hotel chains) know that Oklahoma City is 'in heat' for a convention center hotel and that she will do just about anything to get the convention center & convention center hotel constructed concurrently.


Did we put ourselves in a position to be tied to the tracks?


https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR3LN2jH2gMgj-Q4KKjxlg-aBjMbCsX4_RacPbxraVWb3D_emNsrghttps://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSwx7DR_8PSTNqiWDUVxUNAmaJsJBJso CX9oO2aSGBNnoRPwQ0kFA
Would you untie me for $15 million?

Let's get the new downtown convention center & convention center hotel built; let's be careful not to show our hand before discarding...

http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

I think it just takes a mindset change for a lot of people. It's just different for people who get places via cars their entire lives. This is the first year I've been able to bike to campus everyday, and I absolutely love it.

It's going to take some time to get Oklahomans used to and comfortable with walking and mass transit. This is a state and city that has pretty much only known car culture its entire existence.

This is a state and city that has pretty much only known car culture its entire existence.

Since streetcars were very prevalent here from 1903-1947 I'm going to disagree with this statement. Now if you say something like "it's entire post-war existence", then okay...

It's going to take some time to get Oklahomans used to and comfortable with walking and mass transit. This is a state and city that has pretty much only known car culture its entire existence.

WRONG. This city was founded as a dense urban city with inner-city and inter-city transit options being the norm. It became a sprawling car city after WWII.

bchris02 is obviously exhibiting his lack of knowledge about OKC's history to make negative points.

I believe that anywhere from Crown Heights south, if there's a boulevard, there was a streetcar line. There are still tracks in the road on 4th St. going under the RR bridge. And then there was the OKC-Norman train. Very sad

http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&docid=eWZIxItJTu_1BM&tbnid=-8rqYf-tEYf-gM:&ved=0CAUQjBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.okc.gov%2Fmaps3%2FCNVNTN_CNTR _FINAL_lr.jpg&ei=2PVJU7fqCYir8gGtkIGgCQ&psig=AFQjCNFcKcYrli6JuBD3z9i381B4LsBGYg&ust=1397442392216996

Oklahoma City is taking her sweet time and putting feelers out there to see if a convention center hotel with or without the need of public subsidies can be achieved. Unfortunately, any major hotel chain wanting to build a 700-800 room mega hotel know that there are $30 million in a contingency fund just waiting to be tapped.

A smart-aggressive hotel chain is going to 'French kiss' Oklahoma City until a tonsillectomy is performed on that contingency fund and OKC regurgitates some dollars.

They (hotel chains) know that Oklahoma City is 'in heat' for a convention center hotel and that she will do just about anything to get the convention center & convention center hotel constructed concurrently.




Some few may feel that way but not "Oklahoma City".

From upthread:


Support for convention center, not hotel
In a News9/Oklahoma Gazette poll of Oklahoma City residents conducted this year, questions were asked about the public’s support for MAPS 3 and the convention center project.

Fifty-four percent of residents surveyed said they either strongly support or somewhat support using MAPS 3 funding to build a new downtown convention center. Thirty-eight percent were somewhat opposed or strongly opposed. The poll received responses from 980 residents with a margin of error at 3.13 percent.

However, when it came to using public funds to help construct a new convention center hotel, 71 percent were somewhat opposed or strongly opposed.

bchris02 is obviously exhibiting his lack of knowledge about OKC's history to make negative points.

What is untrue or negative about what I said? It's a fact its going to take some time to get this city used to walking and taking transit. That's not negative spin, that's a fact. Secondly, this city only has a very short history prior to the advent of the automobile. I never said it was a sprawling car city since the beginning. I said that car culture has been here since the beginning which is true. Mass transit did exist though and it wasn't until after WWII that it was dismantled.

http://www.automobilealley.org/sites/default/files/history1.jpg

I said that car culture has been here since the beginning which is true. Mass transit did exist though and it wasn't until after WWII that it was dismantled.

I'm sorry, but that isn't true. There was no car culture in 1889.

here was no car culture in 1889.

or density

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Oklahoma_City_1890.jpg

There were more residents within the boundaries of that map then than there are now.

I love what has been going on in OKC since the first MAPS vote. I have voted for all of them, and I have been wonderfully impressed by ALL of the developments that have happened directly, and indirectly, because of MAPS. I happily voted for Mick Cornett in the last election, ESPECIALLY because of what Ed Shadid was spewing about stopping projects.
I remember after the first MAPS vote there were naysaying voices who wanted to de-fund the arena, saying we didn't need it. Is ANYONE saying that now?
IMHO, people who saying things like, "We don't need "X" right now, so why build it?" are idiots with no foresight.
We didn't "need' the Ford Center, but we built it...and then when there was a chance to get an NBA team we already had a paid-for arena.
We don't "need" a streetcar right now, but if we wait until we absolutely need one (like Dallas) it's almost too late. Their roads are so clogged I don't think the light rail has much effect at all.
We may not "need" a Convention Center right now, but why not get ahead of the game?
As a fairly Tea-Party Libertarian I'm gonna use a naughty politic word (for me at least) :-) We need to be "progressive"

or density

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Oklahoma_City_1890.jpg

You need to look closer at the map then because the area adjacent to train station is pretty dense and there sure isn't any sprawl into the countryside.

You need to look closer at the map then because the area adjacent to train station is pretty dense.

I (we) were speaking about OKC as a whole. It was about as dense as a whole in the 1890's as our 1950-60s burbs, if even that dense.

Pretty impressive if you ask me. A year (or less) prior, the area shown in that picture was empty prairie in a frontier wilderness. Most of the areas lacking density in that photo hadn't been built on yet. By the turn of century and the teens, the area we now think of as downtown OKC was remarkably dense.

You can't look at the empty space in the middle of those and cry out (not dense). If that picture was built out at the average density in OK today, there would be somewhere between 7 and 11 houses on each large block (meaning don't count the narrow streets)

OKC as a whole became somewhat dense two to three decades after it was established, which lasted three to four decades. In other words, for historical perspective, OKC achieved some level of density for about the second fourth of its current lifespan. It wasn't before and it wasn't after.

It's going to take some time to get Oklahomans used to and comfortable with walking and mass transit. This is a state and city that has pretty much only known car culture its entire existence.

I think I get what you're saying. I believe there's been some misunderstanding about your statement by other posters.

Older cities like Philadelphia or Chicago or San Francisco were established well before mass production of the automobile. Whereas OKC was established only about 15 years prior to the mass production of automobiles. So the automobile has always been an option as a mode of transportation during OKC's existence. Not to say that OKC didn't also have mass transit along the way, but we've had the auto through almost our entire history. That's going to spur a different kind of development than a city that was built for walking, horses and carriages because the car did not exist.

...

In the cc case. The owner decided after a while that the ed process. Was the best way to go. But not in a contentious way

IMHO that is because of the community standing of the owners. They will go with the decision. Of the panel and not appeal.


I seem to recall an article several months ago, where the owners of the property said instead of having blood on the walls by fighting over a price in public, that they told the city they'd rather go through the eminent domain process. I see no foul here if that's what the city and the property owners agreed to. Who cares?

I think this is the most likely situation - letting a third party decide the value of the land relieves either side from the appearance / possible charges of impropriety in the process. It doesn't seem like there is really an issue here...

BREAKING NEWS: Per William Crum of the Oklahoman, Ed's convention center folks missed the signature deadline. (SIMPSON'S KID VOICE) Ha ha!

Per his twitter feed:

Advocates of initiative to call vote on MAPS 3 convention center miss deadline to submit signatures. #OKC #MAPS

^Like

Great ! Maybe Dred will go away now.

1) I bet losing the mayoral election took the wind out of Shadid's sails. Once that happened he threw up his hands and quit. It shouldn't have been that hard to collect 6,000 signatures.

2) Seeing Ed abandon his goal like that may disillusion some of his followers. It makes it look like a political ploy to draw out MAPS-haters to the polls for Shadid.

Look like my a**!

1) I bet losing the mayoral election took the wind out of Shadid's sails. Once that happened he threw up his hands and quit. It shouldn't have been that hard to collect 6,000 signatures.

2) Seeing Ed abandon his goal like that may disillusion some of his followers. It makes it look like a political ploy to draw out MAPS-haters to the polls for Shadid.

All of us here have expressed some reservations about this project at one time or another. But this just shows how ineffectual Shadid is at getting ANYTHING accomplished. If there was any low-hanging fruit to pick from the MAPS 3 ballot, this was it. And he got nothing done. Thank GOD he is not our mayor.

All of us here have expressed some reservations about this project at one time or another. But this just shows how ineffectual Shadid is at getting ANYTHING accomplished. If there was any low-hanging fruit to pick from the MAPS 3 ballot, this was it. And he got nothing done. Thank GOD he is not our mayor.

This is a good observation.

Reading the Ben Felder article earlier in the thread, I was about to quote and comment that the Gazette basically gave Shadid even more ink to rant and rave without even mentioning the glaring absence of any real information regarding Shadid's petition.


What a waste of everyone's time. This man has ZERO credibility. Pretty thrilled that the petition threat was simply a gaseous farce just like everything else Shadid has campaigned against in this city.

Does anyone actually dred this outcome? If I were a true believer and a ward 2 voter, I probably would be steamed right now, and wondering who my next leader will be. But for the rest of OKC and the surrounding metro .. this too shall pass and soon be forgotten.

The question remains: How much is the convention center and adjacent hotel going to cost taxpayers? Will it help or hurt other downtown hoteliers?

The question remains: How much is the convention center and adjacent hotel going to cost taxpayers? Will it help or hurt other downtown hoteliers?

Nobody knows any figures at this point, no matter what Dred has said. Now the Skirvin could be used as an example, maybe. I know the Skirvin has made several loan 'repayments' back to the city.

The question remains: How much is the convention center and adjacent hotel going to cost taxpayers?The initial phase, as promised, will cost 250 million. When it is all said and done, all phases complete, I wouldn't doubt seeing it go past 600 million nor would I care. I completely understood it would be built in phases and a new hotel would likely be necessary and I wasn't even able to vote at that time.


Will it help or hurt other downtown hoteliers?The convention center will obviously help other hotels as well as spurring new development. It also neccassary as with every other convention center in other cities,

The question remains: How much is the convention center and adjacent hotel going to cost taxpayers? Will it help or hurt other downtown hoteliers?

krisb,

the cost of phase one of the cc is known, as it was included in M3. While there may yet be an issue of staying in budget, that is speculative at present.

the cost of phase two, if it is handled as phase one was handled, will be presented to voters to decide at some date in the future.

the cost of a hotel subsidy, or even if there will in fact be a subsidy, is a presently unknown question. The only hard answer available is 0.00 for now, as no one has even approved a subsidy in principle, let alone for a specific amount.

I saw a story about the controversy of this project on News9 this morning and with it they included a conceptual rendering for the hotel that I've never seen anywhere. Did anyone else see the story?


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I saw a story about the controversy of this project on News9 this morning and with it they included a conceptual rendering for the hotel that I've never seen anywhere. Did anyone else see the story?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

.. was this an older story or today?

.. was this an older story or today?

The story was on TV this morning from 6-7am.


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They're doing a special on it this week so they will be showing a picture of it again at 10 o'clock.

no rendering, but here is a small article about the airing. A 250-Million Dollar Convention Center Could Bring Business - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | (http://www.news9.com/story/18914750/tonight-at-ten-generic)

Maybe it was a preview. Story coming on now.


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no rendering, but here is a small article about the airing. A 250-Million Dollar Convention Center Could Bring Business - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | (http://www.news9.com/story/18914750/tonight-at-ten-generic)

"Could bring business" in the headline. Wow, amateurs.

lol

http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/griffin/NEWS9/PDF/1212/CCF.pdf

Can A $250M Convention Center Bring Big Business To OKC? - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | (http://www.news9.com/story/25397287/can-a-250m-convention-center-bring-big-business-to-okc)

Didn't see any rendering of the hotel

News 9 is so far behind -- they probably think the convention center was just announced today.

News 9 is so far behind -- they probably think the convention center was just announced today.

Probably just a slow day at the office, very few shootings yesterday.

The news story had video renderings of plans I had never seen, so maybe they were really really old. Some dude did say enough planners have skipped OKC that had they been here the city could have earned over a billion dollars in sales tax revenues.


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For the love of Pete.

Could have earned....
Could bring business...

That also means:
Could not have earned....
Could not bring business...

Also, excuse me while I LMAO at the billion dollars in sales tax comment. At 4 cents of each dollar going to the city in sales tax that would take spending (from non-city residents mind you) of $2,500,000,000,000. In case you have trouble with the '0's - that is $2.5 trillion dollars. If a convention center could generate that kind of spending the local private business community would have built 10 of them a long time ago - but there is a reason why private convention centers are only located at Disney World and Las Vegas.

For the love of Pete.

Could have earned....
Could bring business...

That also means:
Could not have earned....
Could not bring business...

Also, excuse me while I LMAO at the billion dollars in sales tax comment. At 4 cents of each dollar going to the city in sales tax that would take spending (from non-city residents mind you) of $2,500,000,000,000. In case you have trouble with the '0's - that is $2.5 trillion dollars. If a convention center could generate that kind of spending the local private business community would have built 10 of them a long time ago - but there is a reason why private convention centers are only located at Disney World and Las Vegas.

Before you go off on the normal "I hate business rant", the article didn't say we lost a billion tax dollars. We know you hate conventions and the idea of the city aiding and abetting business. What the article actually said was that we missed out on the opportunity for a billion dollars worth of economic impact since 2007. But, I'm sure you'll tee off on that and how that is a lie and this is just a big business conspiracy to dupe the citizens of OKC. LOL

Thanks for telling me what I think Rover as I am incapable of articulating my own thoughts and expressing them to others.

I actually got the billion in sale tax revenue from post #1517 and not from the article - which as it turns out was probably a misinterpretation from the article itself. However, if $1 billion in spending was missed out on why don't the businesses who would have benefited from this revenue get together and build their own convention center? Why are they waiting around for the public to do it, because by doing so they are missing out on a lot of money.

Just so everyone is clear (I'm looking right at you Rover) - I am not opposed to the convention center. I think we need a new one, but not because of some made up pie in the sky dollar amounts, that frankly, are insulting. We need a new one because public buildings should inspire and make the local citizens proud of their city. The Cox Center does neither of those.

Made up pie in the sky dollar amounts, that frankly, are insulting.

boom :)

To deny that the city has lost competitive position to host events which they would otherwise be in the running for is ludicrous. Over a 6 or 7 year time frame the convention bureau apparently logged lots of event requests for which they were not able to compete because of lack of facilities, among other things. I can't personally attest to the economic impact being one billion, two billion, or two million. But, it is believable that it is a quite large size of economic impact. The value of the convention center goes beyond it being a pleasing and pride inducing building. Build a monument if you want a public edifice. Build a serviceable and sizable appropriate convention center that enables the city to compete for events which would be appropriate for us to host. I believe that is quite a bit more than what we now do.

Oklahoma City lost its competitiveness to attract convention dollars because we took a decade and a half to get the Myriad Convention Center built. Meanwhile, cities like Dallas-Fort Worth, Denver, Kansas City, Tulsa, Memphis and Wichita were miles ahead of our city.

The 6,500-seat Municipal Auditorium lost its appeal and was later downsized and renovated into a 3,200-seat Civic Center Music Hall.

We have to have 'skin' in the game to get back in the game.

The Myriad (Cox Convention Center) is now fifty years old. We allowed fifty years to go by without aggressively upgrading to stay competitive. The Myriad was a nice facility when it was finally completed; our convention industry died on life support because we didn't have the hotels to support the convention facility we had just built.

The few hotels we did have (Sheraton, Skirvin, Skirvin Twin, Tivoli Inn, Downtown Holliday Inn, Hotel Black) succumbed to obsolescence.

We had one functioning hotel downtown (Sheraton Century Center). You can't expand your convention industry as a one hotel town.

2014-2020:

We have a catalyst of new hotels downtown to springboard us once the new convention center gets built. This is why an anchor mega hotel adjacent to the new convention center is going to be needed to get us back in the game. We will be in a much better position to support conventions if we have the capacity to accommodate the conventioneers.

Let's get it done...


http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

Oklahoma City lost its competitiveness to attract convention dollars because we took a decade and a half to get the Myriad Convention Center built. Meanwhile, cities like Dallas-Fort Worth, Denver, Kansas City, Tulsa, Memphis and Wichita were miles ahead of our city.

The 6,500-seat Municipal Auditorium lost its appeal and was later downsized and renovated into a 3,200-seat Civic Center Music Hall.

We have to have 'skin' in the game to get back in the game.

The Myriad (Cox Convention Center) is now fifty years old. We allowed fifty years to go by without aggressively upgrading to stay competitive. The Myriad was a nice facility when it was finally completed; our convention industry died on life support because we didn't have the hotels to support the convention facility we had just built.

The few hotels we did have (Sheraton, Skirvin, Skirvin Twin, Tivoli Inn, Downtown Holliday Inn, Hotel Black) succumbed to obsolescence.

We had one functioning hotel downtown (Sheraton Century Center). You can't expand your convention industry as a one hotel town.

2014-2020:

We have a catalyst of new hotels downtown to springboard us once the new convention center gets built. This is why an anchor mega hotel adjacent to the new convention center is going to be needed to get us back in the game. We will be in a much better position to support conventions if we have the capacity to accommodate the conventioneers.

Let's get it done...


http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif Agreed. Lets get it done and do it to be competitive not just to cities like Wichita, but lets be a real competitor to DFW.