I understand and generally agree with the concerns around the Underground but support limited applications of bridging parking structures on the perimeter to more centralized office buildings.

There is presently a big problem without a solution: Many buildings in the middle of the CBD do not have enough parking. When you consider we have a lot of space that will filling up (Century Center, Braniff Building, Parkside Building, Dowell Center, First National Center and Chase Tower) it begs the question: Where the heck are they going to park when all current garages are over 100% occupied?

Remember, they had to even scrap the addition to the Century Center, so there will be no new parking in the CBD for the foreseeable future. And where would you put it anyway? The convention center is going to bring a whole new level of concern.

So, parking will be have to be added several blocks away and as much as we love to mock the anti-walk mentality, there are many, many days in Oklahoma when it is dumping down rain, freezing arse cold, scorching hot or any number of awful things to experience while walking completely exposed for blocks at at time. And being forced to do so... Not having the option of merely staying home when the weather is horrific.

Also, most the parking studies show big garages to the west, several blocks from the proposed streetcar route.


I worked at Leadership Square for 7 years and almost always walked outside to and from my car, but there were a bunch of times I was darn grateful for having the Underground as an option.

And also keep in mind that not everyone arrives and departs once a day. I used to come and go several times a day for meetings -- every day. And again, if the weather turned bad at any of those times as it often did, it would have been miserable to slog the several blocks over and over again.

I just think it's a mistake to continue to expand it. I would prefer it be closed permanently, but I know that won't happen.

Pete how do they do it in virtually every other city in America? They walk outside. In Denver, a lot of people pack a light rain jacket with their work bag. And if it is raining cats and dogs, they go and hide inside of a store for a moment until it clears.

I just don't get our obsession with air condition comfort (or even dependence) with not being able to tolerate weather that is experienced in every other part of the globe.

I just think it's a mistake to continue to expand it. I would prefer it be closed permanently, but I know that won't happen.

Pete how do they do it in virtually every other city in America? They walk outside. In Denver, a lot of people pack a light rain jacket with their work bag. And if it is raining cats and dogs, they go and hide inside of a store for a moment until it clears.

I just don't get our obsession with air condition comfort (or even dependence) with not being able to tolerate weather that is experienced in every other part of the globe.

We're fat and lazy, and we aren't quick to embrace change.

I worked downtown for years and there were days the tunnel was a godsend. That said, I would sooner fill it in with cement and have a city that doesn't resemble a post-nuclear ghost town most days of the week.

Why is the assumption always that we will maintain a huge parking problem when the paradigm is in the middle of a massive shift where people who work downtown also live downtown. This is a relatively new phenomenon for OKC, and is only going to continue to drastically change. If just 150 people with positions downtown move downtown in the next year and a half, that helps alleviate some of the parking issues.

All of these large scaled apartments come with parking garages to help alleviate the problem. I don't know the numbers, but if right now, for example, we need 1.65 parking spots for every downtown employee, as more housing is built, we'll likely shift to only needing something like 1.25 spots for every employee.

I'm not saying that we don't need to expand parking, but we will be making a massive mistake if we project our future needs through the lens of where we are today.

As it stands today, we have way more demand for parking downtown than we do spaces and the problem is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

It's harming the growth of our downtown -- there is absolutely no question about that.

I'm saying a short-term solution -- until people shift their ways and/or we tear down the Myriad -- is to link garages several blocks away with buildings.


As for other cities, OKC is somewhat unique in a pretty compact CBD with a lot of super blocks that don't provide enough parking for the existing building stock. And of course, we have virtually zero mass transit and a very tiny percentage of people who work downtown who don't come to work every day in their own car. That will change but not in a timeframe that is going to resolve the current parking crisis that is strangling our downtown.


On the other hand, I do completely understand the desire not to expand the Underground. But keep in mind the mind that the man who absolutely insisted on hundreds of millions be spent on streetscape and sidewalks before he built his new skyscraper (Larry Nichols) also demanded some of that same TIF money be used to connect his building to the Underground system. And of course, all Devon employees can walk from their cars directly into the Devon complex without going outside.

Sincere questions:

How badly is it harming downtown? What are we missing out on because of lack of parking?

Can we wait just two years to see if the addition of essentially 2,000 apartment units (and climbing) with dedicated parking alleviates this issue in any way?

It's harming downtown the point we can't add another significant employer without building more parking.

I also know of a couple of companies who are looking to move out due to this problem.

I'm torn on The Underground. I too use it and appreciate it when I do, and yet I know at the same time that it violates some good urban planning rules that exist for a reason. It was mentioned earlier that it gave users the choice of visiting street-level retail or walking below ground, but the reality is for downtown retail operations to succeed we need to route as many walkers as possible past them.

That said, the thing that most robs downtown of vibrancy is a lack of vibrancy, if that makes sense. Sure The Underground is a minor culprit, but the best fix is simply more people and more activity, which we are seeing every day.

It would be interesting to know the percentage of walking trips that happen in the Underground.

I would guess it would be a shockingly small amount, when you consider all the people that work downtown.

I know when I worked down there and had occasion to use it, it was never super busy even on the lousiest days.

And I walked through most of it a couple of years ago to see the renovation, and it was pretty empty.


Again, I'm not necessarily advocating an expansion but I really don't think it has a big impact on the CBD's street life.

It's nice to have during a tornado. I picked up a drink at the Skirvin and went into the underground to watch the news with the big tornado last spring. Otherwise, I forget it exists and would never choose to walk there when I can walk outside.

It would be interesting to know the percentage of walking trips that happen in the Underground.

I would guess it would be a shockingly small amount, when you consider all the people that work downtown.

I know when I worked down there and had occasion to use it, it was never super busy even on the lousiest days.

And I walked through most of it a couple of years ago to see the renovation, and it was pretty empty.


Again, I'm not necessarily advocating an expansion but I really don't think it has a big impact on the CBD's street life.

What street life?

What street life?

You're certainly in a cantankerous mood tonight. :)

You're certainly in a cantankerous mood tonight. :)

I was actually chuckling when I wrote that. But our CBD doesn't have any observable "street life."

I tend to side with Urbanized on the tunnel discussion. It's not necessarily the tunnel that is causing the dearth of street life, it's more likely the near complete lack of street-level retail in the CBD. Given the choice, people would walk on the streets if there were something to walk to -- or past.

I was actually chuckling when I wrote that. But our CBD doesn't have any observable "street life."

I tend to side with Urbanized on the tunnel discussion. It's not necessarily the tunnel that is causing the dearth of street life, it's more likely the near complete lack of street-level retail in the CBD. Given the choice, people would walk on the streets if there were something to walk to -- or past.

While we don't have the most vibrant street life in the CBD, everyone always talks about how awesome Tulsa's downtown is and I've been surprised that it has virtually zero street life. During the week I generally see a pretty decent amount of people on the streets in the OKC CBD, I've been in Tulsa at 5 pm and even when people should be getting off work and walking to their cars, it's a complete ghost town. I think that the more housing we add close to the CBD and AA, the more street life there will be, which will also make retail more viable.


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It's harming downtown the point we can't add another significant employer without building more parking.

I also know of a couple of companies who are looking to move out due to this problem.


Two words- commuter rail.

Build parking garages where land is cheap and inconsequential, bring people in, and distribute them by streetcar.

Building more parking garages is a temporary solution. Obviously the density is forcing these garages to the current periphery of downtown anyway.

Two words- commuter rail.

Build parking garages where land is cheap and inconsequential, bring people in, and distribute them by streetcar.

Building more parking garages is a temporary solution. Obviously the density is forcing these garages to the current periphery of downtown anyway.

Agree. We need to be looking seriously at commuter rail. Traffic on the Broadway Extension is at the point where I think people would be happy to get out of their cars. The streetcar will make moving through the CBD without a car painless.

^

Yes, and if you can step off the train at Santa Fe Station and either hop on the streetcar or merely walk a couple of blocks to the huge majority of office buildings, hotels and reastaurants downtown, that will be another huge inducement.

Both Broadway Extension and I-35 south are getting somewhat congested so running service from downtown Edmond and Norman is starting to make sense.


And I mentioned this before... Since downtown parking is so constrained and starting to get expensive, employers could easily work with COTPA and provide incentives to take mass transit.

When I worked in downtown L.A. almost all companies would pay for your train tickets, even if you didn't get paid parking as a perk of your job.

^

Yes, and if you can step off the train at Santa Fe Station and either hop on the streetcar or merely walk a couple of blocks to the huge majority of office buildings, hotels and reastaurants downtown, that will be another huge inducement.

Both Broadway Extension and I-35 south are getting somewhat congested so running service from downtown Edmond and Norman is starting to make sense.


And I mentioned this before... Since downtown parking is so constrained and starting to get expensive, employers could easily work with COTPA and provide incentives to take mass transit.

When I worked in downtown L.A. almost all companies would pay for your train tickets, even if you didn't get paid parking as a perk of your job.

I believe my employer offers the option: paid parking or transit passes (one or the other) for the headquarters employees in Chicago. It's a monthly credit, based on 20 round trips per month, and is paid out at the end of the month along with non-smoker health wellness credits.

Agreed, when I worked downtown; I sure appreciated the tunnel. There were many reasons to take it instead of walking to the parking garage at street level - but that's another thread entirely...

Agreed, when I worked downtown; I sure appreciated the tunnel. There were many reasons to take it instead of walking to the parking garage at street level - but that's another thread entirely...I thought we had a thread on the underground. I couldn't find it. :/

^

Yes, and if you can step off the train at Santa Fe Station and either hop on the streetcar or merely walk a couple of blocks to the huge majority of office buildings, hotels and reastaurants downtown, that will be another huge inducement.

Both Broadway Extension and I-35 south are getting somewhat congested so running service from downtown Edmond and Norman is starting to make sense.


And I mentioned this before... Since downtown parking is so constrained and starting to get expensive, employers could easily work with COTPA and provide incentives to take mass transit.

When I worked in downtown L.A. almost all companies would pay for your train tickets, even if you didn't get paid parking as a perk of your job.

When I worked in downtown Houston, my employer (El Paso) would not pay for your parking, but would pay for your bus ticket (rode the commuter bus in from Katy).

Not to get sidetracked even more, but a commuter rail that was like Metra in Chicago would be awesome.

To sort of frame this discussion on topic, are we seriously concerned about a spike in parking needs for conventions? I would think only between 5% and 20% of the attendance number translates into parked cars. So it would take a fairly large convention to be super taxing on the structure, and by the time the convention center is completed, things will be markedly different downtown (or at least on the precipice of such things).

Maybe my earlier point several pages back was too esoteric. Back to the Convention Center specifically. It is probably the most significant publicly subsidized mechanism to bring visitors to our city.

I want them to have the best experience that any visitor can have in our fair city. My opinion is that The Underground is a bad idea for connecting to the CC unless it is for emergency weather conditions or for personelle/service folks. Visitors need a sidewalk level experience and experience true urban vibrancy.

Conversely, the Underground may already affect the level of pedestrian activity and that experience. And regarding visitors, every single minute is valuable. We will be paying dearly for those minutes. Lets make sure that their focus is used wisely.

I advocate for a weather protected, if not indoor, streetcar stop at the Convention Center. One with extra capacity. Streetcars are air conditioned and heated. They should suffice for meaningful connectivity to the Convention Center in lieu of catastrophic weather. Lets keep the Underground access to a minimum and encourage it's use responsibly.

I thought we had a thread on the underground. I couldn't find it. :/

Check your post, the board's auto-linking function found it for you.

While we don't have the most vibrant street life in the CBD, everyone always talks about how awesome Tulsa's downtown is and I've been surprised that it has virtually zero street life. During the week I generally see a pretty decent amount of people on the streets in the OKC CBD, I've been in Tulsa at 5 pm and even when people should be getting off work and walking to their cars, it's a complete ghost town. I think that the more housing we add close to the CBD and AA, the more street life there will be, which will also make retail more viable.


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Tulsa's CBD is in worse shape than ours for street life. It is dead. They have many good things going for their downtown overall, though.

I just think it's a mistake to continue to expand it. I would prefer it be closed permanently, but I know that won't happen.

Pete how do they do it in virtually every other city in America? They walk outside. In Denver, a lot of people pack a light rain jacket with their work bag. And if it is raining cats and dogs, they go and hide inside of a store for a moment until it clears.

I just don't get our obsession with air condition comfort (or even dependence) with not being able to tolerate weather that is experienced in every other part of the globe.
You can't compare Okc to every city. But with western cities we have far less parking.

Having worked in the Denver CBD I drove in from boulder and depending on the weather parked between 4-6 blocks. Or 1 block. Because the cost was 10 a day 4-6 blocks or 25 for 1 block.

Just about everyone I worked with (that was not high up enough to have access to the company garage) did the same. What daily parking option do we have in the CBD. None This idea that in every city everyone is fine with walking blocks and blocks to work in bad weather simply is not true

Why is the assumption always that we will maintain a huge parking problem when the paradigm is in the middle of a massive shift where people who work downtown also live downtown. This is a relatively new phenomenon for OKC, and is only going to continue to drastically change. If just 150 people with positions downtown move downtown in the next year and a half, that helps alleviate some of the parking issues.

All of these large scaled apartments come with parking garages to help alleviate the problem. I don't know the numbers, but if right now, for example, we need 1.65 parking spots for every downtown employee, as more housing is built, we'll likely shift to only needing something like 1.25 spots for every employee.

I'm not saying that we don't need to expand parking, but we will be making a massive mistake if we project our future needs through the lens of where we are today.

The majority or my friends that live down town (deep deuce midtown arts ect). And work downtown still drive to work the majority of the time

What street life?

There is plenty drive down park between 9-5 any week day

We clearly need a combination of all of the above.

If companies are actively looking to leave downtown because of our parking situation, then we need more. Other companies looking to move downtown will find it easier if there are more parking garages and more spaces. So let's build them. Yes, it's the conventional answer, but a lot of companies are run by people who follow such conventional wisdom.

At the same time, commuter rail is absolutely the long-term answer. It may take 10+ years to get this moving, so garages will have to suffice in the interim. But is we expect the type of growth downtown that I hope we expect, then we can make good use of both. Building 3 or 4 more garages won't completely eliminate the need for rail. We'll fill those garages up, and still need more space. We will also be able to connect downtown to the airport, meaning that convention attendees and other visitors will be able to get downtown without needing to take up a parking space.

Finally we'll get lots more housing downtown. With the streetcar, that will enable people who are a 15 minute walk (living in Deep Deuce or Midtown) who are kinda lazy and would rather drive, to leave their car at home.

Tulsa's CBD is in worse shape than ours for street life. It is dead. They have many good things going for their downtown overall, though.

True, unfortunately there are several things working against their downtown as well. A ton of surface parking and one way streets for starters, but i would kill for their abundance of cool architecture.


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The majority or my friends that live down town (deep deuce midtown arts ect). And work downtown still drive to work the majority of the time

I learned about this (people who lived downtown but still drove to their garage) recently and was completely astounded.

There is plenty drive down park between 9-5 any week day

Yeah, I've only lived downtown since July, so it may just recently be getting better or something , but if I go for a walk in the CBD at lunch time or closing time, it seems like a good amount of foot traffic (conversely I've also gone for a walk in the Underground at both lunchtime and at closing time, and the traffic down there is very sparse). It's no New York, or Seattle, etc, but for us it seems okay (compared to what I heard about before I experienced it).

I learned about this (people who lived downtown but still drove to their garage) recently and was completely astounded.

I worked and lived downtown for many years. I would usually drive. Why? Because I had to leave the office to attend meetings frequently throughout the day. Obviously, when the meeting was downtown, it was a bonus. If there were days I absolutely knew I wouldn't be leaving the office, I would walk.

I think your case is understandable (if I worked downtown, and had a dr appt or something, I'd probably drive that day), but I'm certain there are others that simply don't want to walk.

I worked and lived downtown for many years. I would usually drive. Why? Because I had to leave the office to attend meetings frequently throughout the day. Obviously, when the meeting was downtown, it was a bonus. If there were days I absolutely knew I wouldn't be leaving the office, I would walk.

This is my experience as well. My situation is also that I may have to without notice race to the zoo, and several times a week make unplanned runs to places like hardware stores, Office Depot, etc.. It is a condition of running a small business and wearing every hat imaginable. I love walking to work but have only done it a few times because of these issues. I do ride a bike occasionally, and VERY often ride either a scooter or a motorcycle, since I can get anywhere in town - especially on the MC - or can quickly get home to grab my car.

Regarding the CC, while I agree that a streetcar stop is needed, once again I feel the need to point out that the streetcar is impractical (actually useless) for moving thousands at one time. It will be perfect for smaller meetings, and during major events will be helpful for moving a small percentage of attendees.

But we're talking what, 150-160 per train? That will only be enough capacity to piss off the thousands who won't fit on board when a large group exits at once, underscoring the need for the CC to be thoughtfully located in the best possible spot for walking to/from.

This is why there are services like TimeCar.

So now we have satisfied demand for another 20 of the 5000 exiting the building. Now what?

No, I am just saying that if people who can walk but choose to drive because they MIGHT have to go somewhere during the day - can just use TimeCar. Or here is a crazy idea - leave 15 minutes earlier and walk home and get your car. Not saying this works for everyone in ever occasion but somehow people around the world do it every day by the millions. An even crazier idea might be to find a local service provider for whatever it is people are leaving downtown for.

OKC is the geographic oddity of the known Universe - nothing that works anywhere else in the world can work there. No matter what the subject is, there is always something unique about OKC that just won't allow 10,000 years of human urban development to work there. The wheel must be reinvented in OKC every time.

Sorry, I thought you were suggesting it as a solution for convention attendees headed to lunch.

Yeah, I have considered TimeCar and Uber in my own circumstances. The reason not having a vehicle available is specifically tough when working in downtown OKC and leaving often is that virtually none of the things you are leaving the office for are available within walking distance. That IS a special circumstance here vs. more established urban environments.

For what it's worth, I walk all over downtown once I am at the office. I walk to the CVB for lunch, for meetings, for banking, for haircuts. I walk from Bricktown to and from Thunder games, and to and from home for Thunder games. I use Uber multiple times each week. I keep a bicycle in my office and sometimes ride that.

I'm in no way averse to walking; I'm averse to having an emergency and being 25 minutes away from my car in a city that demands that you get to 98% of its places by auto.

That'll change as time passes and we get more stuff downtown. I'm not saying it will ever go away completely, but it will decrease the average number of trips needed by the average downtown resident. I am sure there are people in Paris and NYC that drive to work everyday because they need access to their car at a moment's notice. It's just it isn't as high a percentage as downtown OKC workers. I'd say 95% of the people who work downtown drive every day. If we could reduce it to 80% we'd be doing great.

More housing equals more people. More people equals more services. A streetcar equals greater mobility without a car. We are getting all the pieces of the puzzle, one by one. But right now those pieces are scattered about, not connected with each other yet. Five years from now things will look a lot different.

Sorry, I thought you were suggesting it as a solution for convention attendees headed to lunch.

Yeah, I have considered TimeCar and Uber in my own circumstances. The reason not having a vehicle available is specifically tough when working in downtown OKC and leaving often is that virtually none of the things you are leaving the office for are available within walking distance. That IS a special circumstance here vs. more established urban environments.

For what it's worth, I walk all over downtown once I am at the office. I walk to the CVB for lunch, for meetings, for banking, for haircuts. I walk from Bricktown to and from Thunder games, and to and from home for Thunder games. I use Uber multiple times each week. I keep a bicycle in my office and sometimes ride that.

I'm in no way averse to walking; I'm averse to having an emergency and being 25 minutes away from my car in a city that demands that you get to 98% of its places by auto.

No worries - and obviously TimeCar is not a solution for a convention crowd. How many conventions a year do you think OKC will have that has 5,000 out-of-town daily attendees? Where do 18,000 Thunder fans park?

Check your post, the board's auto-linking function found it for you.omg...... I literally spent about 30 minutes trying to find that and I had no idea. Wow, I feel stupid.....

omg...... I literally spent about 30 minutes trying to find that and I had no idea. Wow, I feel stupid.....

Heh, I didn't even notice it myself until after I found the thread manually and replied with a link to it, and then noticed the link was already in your post and stealth edited my reply.

The majority or my friends that live down town (deep deuce midtown arts ect). And work downtown still drive to work the majority of the time

Wow. That's honestly kind of embarrassing.

My roommate walks to work every day, and I know it's one of the things he enjoys most about living downtown.

omg...... I literally spent about 30 minutes trying to find that and I had no idea. Wow, I feel stupid.....

http://www.okctalk.com/announcements-help-desk/31324-how-use-search-site.html

No worries - and obviously TimeCar is not a solution for a convention crowd. How many conventions a year do you think OKC will have that has 5,000 out-of-town daily attendees? Where do 18,000 Thunder fans park?

I think a 5K standalone event is on the outside edge of what we would hope to see booked on a regular basis and would not be a large percentage of events booked. With a new facility and attached hotel perhaps a half dozen to a dozen of those per year, being optimistic. Much more common would be the 1K to 3K range, and even moreso the 250 to 1K range, but those can/would often be booked simultaneously, in which case you still may often have several thousand attendees coming and going on roughly the same schedule. The goal should be to have as many of these attendees on foot as possible, staying in downtown hotels and leaving their cars parked in hotel garages or perhaps without cars at all. Careful location of the CC allows for this, and in fact becomes one of the main selling points in a market that admittedly lacks sex appeal. I have seen it with my own eyes, when convention planners come to OKC they are blown away by what we actually have to offer vs. their (often) low expectations, and walkable convenience relative to hotel, dining and entertainment is our best selling feature.

Regarding Thunder fans, they (and downtown) benefit from the fact that most of the daytime workers exit downtown and downtown parking facilities shortly before game time. So Thunder fans recycle the recently-vacated spots and there is little conflict. Thunder fans park all over downtown, but I would roughly guess that the breakdown is in the neighborhood of 60%+ in the CBD and Arts District (garages, surface lots around arena) and maybe 30% in Bricktown (with 75% of those in LOWER Bricktown), with the balance coming in via shuttle from other parts of downtown and OKC, dropoff, and other means.

Wow. That's honestly kind of embarrassing.

My roommate walks to work every day, and I know it's one of the things he enjoys most about living downtown.

I think it just takes a mindset change for a lot of people. It's just different for people who get places via cars their entire lives. This is the first year I've been able to bike to campus everyday, and I absolutely love it.

No worries - and obviously TimeCar is not a solution for a convention crowd. How many conventions a year do you think OKC will have that has 5,000 out-of-town daily attendees? Where do 18,000 Thunder fans park?

The problem is that our city thinks that building more parking garages is a fix to our parking problem. In fact, our main problem is transit availability. If the bus system ran 24/7 and ran on a grid system, especially in the downtown area, then most people who lived in or around the downtown area would not have to use the cars to go to work. This would also allow safer conditions for those who ride a bike on their commute to work. A larger transit system lowers traffic.

It has to start at the bottom though. You have to fix the bus system, then you do street car, then light rail and then you can have the train commutes from Edmond, Norman and Midwest City. After all of these are implemented, companies like Timecar and Uber will actually make sense. Right now you have communities and even the City unwilling to work with these changes. Oklahoman's now invest almost the same amount of money into their vehicles as they do in their homes.

It has to start at the bottom though. You have to fix the bus system, then you do street car, then light rail and then you can have the train commutes from Edmond, Norman and Midwest City. After all of these are implemented, companies like Timecar and Uber will actually make sense. Right now you have communities and even the City unwilling to work with these changes. Oklahoman's now invest almost the same amount of money into their vehicles as they do in their homes.

Although what you're saying makes a lot of sense, it won't work that way. With our political climate and attitude towards cars versus buses, most taxpayers think buses are for people who cannot afford a car. They already think they're paying for those people's food (food stamps), health care and housing. In Oklahoma, you have to work backwards.

Trains and streetcars are sexy. They add a "wow" factor to a city, just like some of the other amenities we've created with MAPS. They also promise more speed, if not necessarily more convenience than a bus. Luckily, we've already got an initial streetcar system funded. That's going to add a big "wow" factor to downtown, I promise you. Seeing it, and with changing attitudes towards mass transit, I think we might be able to get an RTD funded with a small permanent sales tax. But to do so, you're going to have to talk trains, not buses. People will quickly figure out that taking a bus to or from the train makes their commute even easier, and that's when people will understand that buses are for everyone.

That's not really that much different than how it happened in other cities. Many of the larger cities just never got rid of their rail/streetcar system like OKC did. Buses followed rail transit in many of those cities as well.

The problem is that our city thinks that building more parking garages is a fix to our parking problem. In fact, our main problem is transit availability. If the bus system ran 24/7 and ran on a grid system, especially in the downtown area, then most people who lived in or around the downtown area would not have to use the cars to go to work. This would also allow safer conditions for those who ride a bike on their commute to work. A larger transit system lowers traffic.

It has to start at the bottom though. You have to fix the bus system, then you do street car, then light rail and then you can have the train commutes from Edmond, Norman and Midwest City. After all of these are implemented, companies like Timecar and Uber will actually make sense. Right now you have communities and even the City unwilling to work with these changes. Oklahoman's now invest almost the same amount of money into their vehicles as they do in their homes.

This is why I favor the creation of a mass transit district that focuses on available and frequency in a small geographic area vs. try to provide mass transit to 700 sq. miles. I also would prefer a neighborhood based bus system over a grid based system.

Anyhow, before this thread gets derailed here is a link to that discussion.

http://www.okctalk.com/transportation/26602-bus-system.html#post451129

http://www.okctalk.com/announcements-help-desk/31324-how-use-search-site.htmlThanks.... I tried Google and that didn't work and I also tried using the search feature. but didn't go advanced

I deleted a bunch of posts that were way, way off topic.

This thread is for the Convention Center. Thanks.

Eminent development?

The city is expected to apply eminent domain claim in order to acquire the proposed downtown convention center.

Ben Felder April 11th, 2014

Oklahoma City is moving forward with eminent domain proceedings in order to acquire land for a proposed downtown convention center.

After failing to negotiate a purchase price with the owners of several lots west of Chesapeake Energy Arena, the Oklahoma City Council authorized city staff to file an eminent domain claim with a vote on March 18.

The timing of the vote is one that Ward 2 Councilman Ed Shadid finds ironic.

“The city, in my opinion, purposely delayed this and the fact that they couldn’t agree on the land price until after the mayoral election,” Shadid said.

Shadid, who challenged Mayor Mick Cornett for the mayoral seat this year, made the Metropolitan Area Projects (MAPS 3) convention center project a central part of his campaign. Shadid argued that a new convention center was not a good idea for the city, and he believes movement on the convention center was delayed until after the March 4 election.

Shadid said an intentional effort was made to ignore a convention center study and the need for eminent domain proceedings because it would have brought attention to his campaign. He also accused local of media of going along with the effort.

“We’ve known for three years where we are going to put the convention center, so what’s the delay?” Shadid pushed.

City officials working with the convention center process say the release of a new study and the timing of the eminent domain decision were not delayed. In fact, David Todd, program director of MAPS 3, said the convention center project was ahead of schedule.

“The city made an offer [on the land] months ago, but we were kind of waiting on [the property owners] to respond,” Todd said.

The mayor’s office said it had no involvement in the timing of convention center studies or land acquisition attempts.

“The mayor’s office doesn’t play a role in that type of timing,” said Steve Hill, Cornett’s chief of staff. “To the best of our knowledge, politics did not play a part [in the timing].”

Support for convention center, not hotel
In a News9/Oklahoma Gazette poll of Oklahoma City residents conducted this year, questions were asked about the public’s support for MAPS 3 and the convention center project.

Fifty-four percent of residents surveyed said they either strongly support or somewhat support using MAPS 3 funding to build a new downtown convention center. Thirty-eight percent were somewhat opposed or strongly opposed. The poll received responses from 980 residents with a margin of error at 3.13 percent.

However, when it came to using public funds to help construct a new convention center hotel, 71 percent were somewhat opposed or strongly opposed.

The city council has authorized The PFM Group, an investment advisory firm, to continue with a study into what public incentives might be needed to develop a convention center hotel, which some believe is necessary to draw needed convention business. The firm’s managing director, Tom Morsch, told the city council last month that the study will advise on whether or not a hotel might need public assistance.

“The task is now to take the study and take a look at the convention center as a whole and determine if a subsidy would be needed,” Morsch told the council. “We will look at the various ways communities do subsidies for convention centers.”

Shadid has been critical of using public incentives for a hotel and said market demand should drive its construction.

“If what they are saying is true, that there is going to be as much [convention center] demand as they say, you would have private hotel companies coming here and trying to be first in line to build,” Shadid said.

The city council has not implied which way it would be willing to go concerning tax dollars for a hotel, and Ward 6 Councilwoman Meg Salyer said she believed more study was needed.

“We’ve all talked around the fringes of this,” Salyer said. “I don’t feel that I know enough to make that type of decision right now.”

Oklahoma Gazette News: The city is expected to apply eminent domain claim in order to acquire the proposed downtown convention center. (http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/article-20963-eminent-development.html?utm_content=buffer25f7f&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer)

This screams "SOUR GRAPES!!!!" from Dred


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“The city, in my opinion, purposely delayed this and the fact that they couldn’t agree on the land price until after the mayoral election,” Shadid said.

The timing raised my eyebrows as well.

The last real word was an article by Steve on 10/22/13 saying the City was waiting to hear back on the offers; the implication being they had been out for a while.

Then we hear nothing until mid-March (fully 5 months later) when there is a sudden declaration of an impasse and the need to invoke eminent domain. Less than two weeks after the election.

Were there any meaningful updates or reports between these two events? I may have missed them but I looked hard and paid close attention along the way. My impression (and no doubt that of pretty much everyone else) was that all was fine and on track; that was absolutely the message in the 10/22 article.


I've said this all the way along: Shadid has raised some good points about this whole process (site selection, being moved up in the timeline, the lack of fully communicating the total cost of the project that essentially requires a publicly-funded hotel, the bizarre shifting of MAPS3 funds for the possible relocation of the OG&E facility, among other things) but they got lost in all the other rhetoric.

He was actually right on many points and he may continue to be, but unfortunately he's more than exhausted all his political capital.

But that doesn't mean some dodgy things haven't happened; it just means there is one less person to call it to our attention, because no one is going to listen to him anymore.

Poor baby.

^ We're the poor ones. We need to listen to this. Before the mayoral election campaign, many of us on this site were not impressed with the convention center process. Just one round of elective politics later, and now we're not as engaged on this issue in particular as before. I don't think this information would have affected the outcome of the election at all -- it just would have made the process a bit less smooth for the incumbent. We should all be pushing for more transparency and public participation in city government -- regardless of who you supported.

^ We're the poor ones. We need to listen to this. Before the mayoral election campaign, many of us on this site were not impressed with the convention center process. Just one round of elective politics later, and now we're not as engaged on this issue in particular as before. I don't think this information would have affected the outcome of the election at all -- it just would have made the process a bit less smooth for the incumbent. We should all be pushing for more transparency and public participation in city government -- regardless of who you supported.

Very well said.

Ed's asshat tactics will cost him, but he was spot on with a lot of his points about this CC cluster.

If there was any delay it wouldn't have been on account of the Mayoral race. It would have been to see if the petition against the CC was successful, in my opinion.

Smart perspective, Sid. While the timing seems a little odd, we don't have to automatically accept Shadid's premise/explanation for it. The success or failure of the petition drive seems like a more reasonable connection to make here.

As we look in retrospect at just how poorly Shadid's campaign was received, it's hard to believe that some backroom power brokers were concerned that this news might tip the election in Shadid's favor.

I will also add that there was a similar delay in information about the attempt to purchase the Santa Fe Depot. Every month in our streetcar meeting we would ask if there was any news on progress on purchasing the Depot and for months we were told they were working on it. The city rarely appears to be in a hurry about anything. So, while there may be political reasons for the delay, it's also possible it was due to city business as usual.